MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[gregh729]

Whatever it is, it ain't working. Wife is driving me crazy about it. We'll probably head to Best Buy or a computer repair place to see if they can access it

[ceejay81]

> @baddomes said:

> > @TheCityGame said:

> > > @baddomes said:

> > > I like how the thread on the site updates has been locked.

> >

> > He does say in the lock thread that it's being released on monday, meaning today.

> >

> > I only want ONE THING at this point. . ."go to first unread".

>

> That automatically happens for me when I click on whatever thread I'm looking for. Does it always take you to the first page?

 

Yeah, the only time it takes me to the first page is when the site logs me out. Once I'm logged back in and click on a thread, it brings me to the first unread every time.

[baddomes]

> @gregh729 said:

> Whatever it is, it ain't working. Wife is driving me crazy about it. We'll probably head to Best Buy or a computer repair place to see if they can access it

 

Just going to have to get a fully waterproof phone for those underwater Jacuzzi pictures you've been taking.

[gregh729]

Until she gets this fixed, there won't be any Jacuzzi fun time.

[TheCityGame]

> @ceejay81 said:

> > @baddomes said:

> > > @TheCityGame said:

> > > > @baddomes said:

> > > > I like how the thread on the site updates has been locked.

> > >

> > > He does say in the lock thread that it's being released on monday, meaning today.

> > >

> > > I only want ONE THING at this point. . ."go to first unread".

> >

> > That automatically happens for me when I click on whatever thread I'm looking for. Does it always take you to the first page?

>

> Yeah, the only time it takes me to the first page is when the site logs me out. Once I'm logged back in and click on a thread, it brings me to the first unread every time.

 

I may have been mis-interpreting forum behavior. Maybe I didn't realize it did that because it wasn't explicit. I'd just click the "latest post" and then scroll up to where I stopped reading.

[2moreTerps]

steve elkington it a nut. i don't know that you can learn anything from him but sometimes i watch his stuff. first. start this clip at 3:35n and watch the shot and the statement zinger makes.

 

i remembered that comment when i watched this

 

 

so my golf nerd question is the following: what are the path and face numbers that generate that shot? also if you go find more shot tracers of hovland you'll find other examples are that appear even more to start draw and then fade

[2moreTerps]

 

there are some good examples in there. like the shot that starts at 1:30.

[baddomes]

Is it just the camera angles that make it seem like the ball is doing that? And the announcers are watching these guys on a monitor?

 

I watched all of those videos without sound, and I would have never realized there was some sort of draw/fade flight on the ball unless you had written it. Even with that knowledge, it's really a stretch to even see anything on the shot tracker.

 

I don't work for NASA, but either the ball has to be a knuckleball, or literally change spin axis in mid air to curve different directions. Maybe hovland was playing those off-center callaway balls.

[Ogre41]

Now I want to hit a corkscrew fade.

[2moreTerps]

my guess in thinking about it last night is that he was hitting TINY draws and holding them against the wind. also i'm not totally sure how the technology in those lines works when it comes to wind. i'm assuming it's doppler so it would actually be measuring/tracking the ball but there has to be some filtering/smoothing/calculating as well

[TheCityGame]

I'm looking forward to having a year of statistics on Hovland after next season.

 

Now, using ball flight laws, there's nothing I understand that can make a ball draw then fade (you can do this in disc golf, btw, which is part of the fun, but you're working with spin and release angle in disc golf.)

 

Maybe what you want to look into is the old discussions of the "knuckle fade" that used to be popular around here.

[For example.](https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/242997/can-anyone-explain-how-to-hit-a-power-fade/p1 "For example.")

Or, for the source material, google "encylopedia texarkana" (it's a pdf) and read the chapter on the knucklefade. "Basically the knucklefade is a fade with a draw swing. The ball does not so much fade as resist hooking. " Now, you're pretty quickly going to be into a battle of semantics if you want to argue the difference between "fading" and "resists hooking", but maybe you, as a golfer/person kind of "get" the difference anyway, even if those words don't capture it.

 

I think that part of the reason that people think it's a "draw, then fade" is that the expectation for that piercing ball flight coming off the turf is that it's going to draw when it slows down. Mostly because that's what you've seen your whole life. But Hovland probably hits it with like a 0 path and +1 face so it looks like it's going to draw, but ends up fading right at the end when the spin finally overcomes the ball speed.

 

Here's a funny thing about Hovland. . .he seems really shallow at the ball. I need to see more swings, but he doesn't seem to bust a huge divot. There's always something that confuses me a little in the golf swing. . .you want your low point past the ball, and better players have the low point further past the ball, but the low point also should correspond to where the path is zero. So, if the low point is moved more forward, then your swing should be more from the inside and vice-versa. Coutneracting elements.

 

I think that Hovland might do some kind of big (big even for pros) shallowing move near impact that keeps the arc flatter for longer in both dimensions.

 

Follow the path of his hands at the top in this video. They get up top and they the move closer to his head before they drop. Bowed wrist, too. . .a power fade move.

 

[2moreTerps]

i totally understand the difference between a "resisting hooking" and a "fade". when i think fade i don't use my legs, the club comes in really steep and my path is extreme to the left. all the stuff i've done this year is to counteract each of those. and sometimes when i do it all right i'll hit a tiny fade. except it's like 30 yards longer and 1/8 as much curve as my "fade".

[FAbb]

I feel like that's just what a small push draw looks like, and can be really accentuated from certain perspectives. The speed at which the ball is flying, and rotating degrades over the course of the flight. So you put a little baby draw action on it, and it's basically falling out of the sky towards the end of the flight. My best golf buddy in high school hit basically all of his iron shots with that flight. We called it the draw, slight fade.

[SullGolf]

This is why I just hit a nice big slice. I don't want anyone getting confused trying to describe it.

[TheCityGame]

> @FAbb said:

> I feel like that's just what a small push draw looks like, and can be really accentuated from certain perspectives. The speed at which the ball is flying, and rotating degrades over the course of the flight. So you put a little baby draw action on it, and it's basically falling out of the sky towards the end of the flight. My best golf buddy in high school hit basically all of his iron shots with that flight. We called it the draw, slight fade.

 

I don't.

 

I feel like it's hitting a small pull fade (and I'm not trying to be funny here), but it's like a "pull" that basically starts on line. Like it's really like a -1 path, 0 face.

 

 

[siegel159]

Not to be a dingbat, but it looks like both. He has some shots on shot tracer that look like push draws that either seem to fade as a quirk of camera angle or wind. It also looks like there are shots, like on the par 3 shot tracer vid a few posts up, that are little pull fades and/or impacted by the wind.

 

Or maybe Hovland just has super powers: the ability to minimally impact his ball flight mid-air.

 

Cool shots. Not as nice as my hybrid on 18 from Royal New Kent, but not bad.

[TheCityGame]

> @siegel159 said:

> Not to be a dingbat, but it looks like both. He has some shots on shot tracer that look like push draws that either seem to fade as a quirk of camera angle or wind. It also looks like there are shots, like on the par 3 shot tracer vid a few posts up, that are little pull fades and/or impacted by the wind.

>

yeah, I think that Hovland is probably VERY close to 0/0 when he hits the ball. The neutrality of the shot itself provides an empty vessel which the viewer fills with whatever he desires.

 

[siegel159]

Do you guys think a hybrid shaft or iron shaft make more sense in a 2/driving iron?

 

I recently switched out my 3h for my 2i, but my 2i has an x-stiff S100 shaft in it, which is a bit too heavy/stout. So, I'm gonna get it re-shafted. My irons have KBS Tour-V X, and my 4h has some random hybrid x shaft in it. Not sure which way I want to go.

[gsrjc]

> @siegel159 said:

> Do you guys think a hybrid shaft or iron shaft make more sense in a 2/driving iron?

>

> I recently switched out my 3h for my 2i, but my 2i has an x-stiff S100 shaft in it, which is a bit too heavy/stout. So, I'm gonna get it re-shafted. My irons have KBS Tour-V X, and my 4h has some random hybrid x shaft in it. Not sure which way I want to go.

I’d think hybrid shaft. I will say I tried a 2i titleist that had a KBS black shaft I don’t know if it was hybrid or iron and it was money. Had a high ball flight and nice cut. But didn’t want to spend the money since I have a 2 and 3 hybrid.

 

[2moreTerps]

i agree with city that he's hitting a tiny fade not a tiny draw. i agree with siegel that he hits it both ways and is extremely close to 0/0. there's a john deere video where he hits two drives that curve like 7 feet. i also know that he prefers to play a fade.

 

siegel instead of changing shafts on that 2i just go back to the hybrid.

[gsrjc]

Siegel-I believe I have a few Kuro Kage black hybrid shafts in my basement if you want to try. You’ll have to remove them from the head though. They are attached to some Adams hybrids that I don’t anymore.

[TheCityGame]

These 2 irons are beautiful. They look like they should be easy to hit. They look powerful.

 

And, when you catch one on the spot, it's sweet release, baby. Great traj, run forever, will carry 225 for you. But the other 99 shots out of 100 will fall out of the sky at 170 yards, dip left or right. Ask me how I know.

 

I know one guy at the club who hits one consistently and he's a +3/+4 and never misses the sweet spot. PQ has been hitting one, and he catches it well most of the time, but even his has a tiny sweet spot and his distance drops by like 25% when he's not perfect.

 

By all means, have fun with those 2 irons in silly season, but they are not going to help anyone's game.

 

We figured out the club between the woods and the irons. It's called a hybrid.

[FAbb]

Here's a draw, slight fade on the flightscope traj optimizer. Does this look familiar?

 

 

Numbers to generate the shot came from here

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/342864/how-to-hit-a-push-draw-and-a-pull-fade/

 

Notice how the perspective is very different between the trackman image of the shot, and the flightscope image, and it makes the shot appear completely different.

 

Look at the shot tracer on the shot at the top of this article.

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/228417/by-the-numbers-how-to-hit-a-draw/

[siegel159]

> @2moreTerps said:

> i agree with city that he's hitting a tiny fade not a tiny draw. i agree with siegel that he hits it both ways and is extremely close to 0/0. there's a john deere video where he hits two drives that curve like 7 feet. i also know that he prefers to play a fade.

>

> siegel instead of changing shafts on that 2i just go back to the hybrid.

 

That would save me time and money. No thank you.

 

> @TheCityGame said:

> These 2 irons are beautiful. They look like they should be easy to hit. They look powerful.

>

> And, when you catch one on the spot, it's sweet release, baby. Great traj, run forever, will carry 225 for you. But the other 99 shots out of 100 will fall out of the sky at 170 yards, dip left or right. Ask me how I know.

>

> I know one guy at the club who hits one consistently and he's a +3/+4 and never misses the sweet spot. PQ has been hitting one, and he catches it well most of the time, but even his has a tiny sweet spot and his distance drops by like 25% when he's not perfect.

>

> By all means, have fun with those 2 irons in silly season, but they are not going to help anyone's game.

>

> We figured out the club between the woods and the irons. It's called a hybrid.

 

City, if you saw my second drive on #3 last weekend, you wouldn't be questioning my striking ability. Not my first drive, that went OB, but my second was right on the screws.

 

Seriously though, I was hitting a lot of shots with my hybrids (both 3h and 4h) way left, and while I suppose I could try to figure out the issue and rectify it, it's also a good excuse to play around with the 2i again. So, that's what I'm doing. I've also found that for the few shots where I hit a 2i, a poorly struck shot just knocks off a ton of yardage, as opposed to a poorly struck 3h which puts me in the trees. So it's not like the switch is costing me a ton of strokes.

 

 

[Gmen1204]

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/maryland-best-in-state-rankings

[baddomes]

Golf Digest really does a nice job going in-depth with their ranking guidance

[dcmidnight]

Siegel, stick with whatever shaft you have in your irons if thats a shaft that you're comfortable with. I have had the Steelfibers forever in my irons and it was the perfect match for the Epic 3 iron. Its been in the bag for three seasons now. I definitely do not recommend just trying random shafts. If you have one you like already - stick with it.

 

The whole "hybrids are magic clubs, you should all be playing them instead of long irons" remains just dumb. If you cant find the center of the clubface - or somewhat center - with a 39" long iron you arent magically finding it with a 41" hybrid. Hybrids are built to be easier to hit - but they arent going to change a persons swing flaws. And if such a person was going to complain about their long iron performance because they cant find the center of the clubface - they'll be the same person in another thread asking "why are all hybrids hook machines" or "find me a hybrid I wont hook" or "all hybrids hit the ball left".

 

I've played with more than a few people in this thread who hit hybrids off the tee - and still couldnt find the fairway if it was 100 miles wide.

 

Play around with whatever you want.

[SullGolf]

Congressional is 15 minutes from my house. Burning Tree is 10. Columbia and Chevy Chase are less than 10 if it's not rush hour. That's a full 50% of the courses on the Top 10 list within 15 minutes of my house. I can't play any of them. They may as well not exist.

 

What's the point of that list, except to stroke the egos of some guys who have connections and a spare $100k lying around? The actual purpose of a list like that should be to help guide residents and visitors toward the best places they can play in that state.

 

 

[FAbb]

> @baddomes said:

> Golf Digest really does a nice job going in-depth with their ranking guidance

 

They read pj koenig's write-up from each state, and create the rankings based on how many words are used on each course.

 

 

[baddomes]

I'll take a stab at what they were thinking:

 

1 . (1) Congressional C.C. (Blue) (18th hole pictured above), Bethesda •

-Bro - I saw this one on TV once.

 

2. (2) Baltimore C.C. (East), Lutherville

3. (3) Caves Valley G.C., Owings Mill ≈

-Pretty sure these places are super exclusive, and bonus points that they don't admit members based on racial or religious criteria. Must mean they're pretty awesome golf courses. I think the guy who owns the ravens is a member at one of them (the NFL is sick). I can't remember which one. Better just put them both up here.

 

4. (7) Burning Tree Club, Bethesda

-Did you know that women are only allowed on the grounds one day a year to buy their husbands christmas presents? High Five

 

5. (5) Congressional C.C. (Gold), Bethesda

-......wait which one did I see on TV?

 

6. (4) Bulle Rock, Havre De Grace ^

Ron Jaworski was gonna buy it. He's an NFL guy. Also it used to be more expensive, so gotta bump it down a couple spots now.

 

7. (6) Four Streams, Beallsville

-Hilarious story from college. Me, Freddy, Thomas, and Long Pete did this thing one night after our kegger. Went outside to take a leak and found an anthill that we _crushed_ with our Four Streams.

 

 

8. (9) Chevy Chase Club

9. (8) Columbia C.C., Chevy Chase

I know a guy who lives near DC and he says these places are expensive and make you take caddies.

 

10. (10) Whiskey Creek G.C., Ijamsville ^

-Gotta put another public course on here I guess. This one had good reviews on TripAdvisor.