MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[misplacedtexan83]

But seriously..

 

We all view holes different.. fair or not fair.. hard or not hard, etc 

 

In the end, some holes are just harder than others. Golf is hard.

[davechen]

I suck.  I know that, and I accept that.  But, unless I'm playing with Hive guys, rarely do I play with anyone better than me (other than Junior).  When I get paired up with randos, it's almost always duffers galore.  So a little accommodation in course design for the duffers of the world would go a long way.  

 

I don't think I'm the only person that isn't super pleased with that hole.  My suggestion was to change the junk in front of the hole and make it rough that you could play out of.  The junk doesn't really matter to the low caps, but the high caps are in there all the time.

Edited November 2, 2020 by davechen

[misplacedtexan83]

Dave you aren't alone.

 

Like boys and girls club.. they aren't worry about the 90% they worry about the 10% that are doing good in the sport- I thought that was backwards but what I was told multiple times when my kiddo played basketball 

[baddomes]

Worthington is just a tough golf course.  3 and 12 are tough golf holes.  I wouldn't ever take my wife or Mom to play Worthington because it'd be too tough for them.  I'm sure we can all think of people we know who play golf and for whom that golf course is too tough.  

 

Here's my point:  If you find yourself complaining about 3 and 12 at WM, I'm guessing that the rest of your scorecard wasn't all birdies, pars, and the occasional bogey.  It's just a tough golf course.  You know what you're getting into.  There is a way to play both of those holes to accommodate shots you are capable of.  Move up a set of tees when you play there.  

 

And this is coming from a person who made a 9 on #3 from the white tees at the hive cc last year

[FAbb]

24 minutes ago, ALTSean said:

 

Salty to @davechen "I mean, it's not that hard.  All you got to do is hit one 275 or so down the middle and then it's just a little cut 8I to about 10.'  You got a good look at birdie, worst case, easy par.  Why can't you just do that?"

 

 

 

I said is that it's a challenging hole, and that I don't think there's anything wrong with that.  I said I adjust my expectations on the hole, and probably average around bogey.  But yeah, I guess I could totally see where it looks like I'm saying it's an easy par for somebody elite like myself, and that everybody else stinks.

 

[misplacedtexan83]

Fabb walking off like...

 

[top.h]

proposed solution to #3 that changes very little for the low capper and changes it a little for the high capper

 

cut down the tree left of the green. flatten it out a tiny bit, and add a small 25yd patch of fairway on the left side of the junk. The high capper can still take a risk-reward shot to get a 4 (or 3!) but now can miss left, and right is still punished. 

 

The low capper doesnt really play the hole any different, but now there's a bailout on the left side if you need it?

[dcmidnight]

From the blues I've hit two perfect drives on WM3 the last two times I've played there, good driving iron down the right side, 200-210 carry, landing about 5 yards off the right edge of the fairway. Because of the slope of the fairway and how hard the fairways were, both shots ended up in the garbage rough on the *left* side of the hole. So two excellent drives and I'm still left with a ~7 iron shot, all carry, uphill to the green - out of the rough. And I'd say I'm an above average iron player.

 

Off the tee, there are not a lot of alternatives for me there. I could hit a *much* shorter tee shot, say 180 yards carry into a fatter part of the fairway. But then I'm left with 200-210 uphill into that green. Impossible shot.

 

I think you could make the hole fairer - not easier - but fairer by just leveling off the fairway say from where the carts are in that picture up to the bunker. Leave the bunker, leave the whole pinched off - no problem.

 

 

[TheCityGame]

I think the best solution to hole 3 is just to make it much shorter from the WHITE TEES. You still have the difficulty of a great green complex, but a decent drive can get a 9 iron or 7 iron in a golfer's hand and NOW they can make a decision beyond "I need to hit a perfect 5W off the deck with the ball above my feet to avoid double." There's a tee box that sometimes get the white tees on the left side (across) of the cart path. This allows a 225 yard drive to get through the neck, and you're teeing off aiming away from the left woods. 

 

I think that from there, if someone hits a bad drive, or a bad approach shot, they are OK with it, but the problem from the normal whites is that you can hit good shots and still be F'ed. 

 

I think the second best "solution" to 3 is, as others said, turn the junk in front of the green into rough, not hazard. It's one of those things that adds 1 to an already out of position shot. Sometimes you need that, but not on a hole that has a variety of other challenges. Still a tough par for a good golfer, but it's a LOT less PITA for a bogey golfer. 

 

But, I don't like cutting down the tree that protects the left side, or making the green itself any easier, or taking down trees on the right. 

 

You can't just turn it into "I can bomb my drive anywhere and smash my second shot anywhere and then try to get up and down."

 

But, ease of birdie/par/bogey has no effect on whether I think a hole is good or not. I'd thought people were getting away from the idea of what you score on a hole determining its quality. 

 

But also, like Fabb said. . .lower your expectation. Don't let par constrain your thinking on a hole. Like I said the other day, in the CC, I think everyone -- Marshall, Dom, Moss, Me, Fabb, PQ, Bae, etc etc etc -- was bogey or worse except CJ. It's not a par 4. I don't care about it's length. I don't care what it says on the card. It is just what it is and you need to make your best score on it. 

 

If you put two players on the tee and said, "I'll give 100 bucks to the guy who gets the ball in the hole in the fewest number of strokes here", no one would give a rooty-toot what the card said par was. 

[dcmidnight]

19 minutes ago, top.h said:

proposed solution to #3 that changes very little for the low capper and changes it a little for the high capper

 

cut down the tree left of the green. flatten it out a tiny bit, and add a small 25yd patch of fairway on the left side of the junk. The high capper can still take a risk-reward shot to get a 4 (or 3!) but now can miss left, and right is still punished. 

 

The low capper doesnt really play the hole any different, but now there's a bailout on the left side if you need it?

 

Interesting idea, I like this. Would also open up the hole more for mid caps that are playing from the left hand rough. Again, it would not make the hole *easier* - because they are still facing a 200+ yard shot uphill. 

[dcmidnight]

I've seen that tee box on the left of the path. But put yourself in the mindset and the game of someone who choses that tee box. A 225 yard tee shot, uphill, threading it through a ten yard wide neck? Best of luck. Their approach from that box is probably a 180 yard shot into the fat of the fairway which is at least a better angle.

[TheCityGame]

7 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

From the blues I've hit two perfect drives on WM3 the last two times I've played there, good driving iron down the right side, 200-210 carry, landing about 5 yards off the right edge of the fairway. Because of the slope of the fairway and how hard the fairways were, both shots ended up in the garbage rough on the *left* side of the hole. So two excellent drives and I'm still left with a ~7 iron shot, all carry, uphill to the green - out of the rough. And I'd say I'm an above average iron player.

 

Off the tee, there are not a lot of alternatives for me there. I could hit a *much* shorter tee shot, say 180 yards carry into a fatter part of the fairway. But then I'm left with 200-210 uphill into that green. Impossible shot.

 

I think you could make the hole fairer - not easier - but fairer by just leveling off the fairway say from where the carts are in that picture up to the bunker. Leave the bunker, leave the whole pinched off - no problem.

 

 

that is an annoying feature of the hole when the fairways are playing firm out there. 

 

I just consider the flipside of that is that a whole bunch of other holes become easier. I take the good with the bad out there. 

 

You get other holes like 9 where the lay-up becomes a lot more difficult because of firmness (you get into the rough. You can't control where the ball ends).

[dcmidnight]

Yeah the layup on 9 becomes near impossible if the fairways are hard - there are so many little mound areas at the bottom of the fairway, you could hit a short wedge shot that bounds right through the fairway.

[FAbb]

On the other hand, you can also have a chance to get yourself in range to have a crack at the green in two on 9, when it's firm.

 

It was soft last week.  We didn't get any roll.  You don't have to deal with some of those balls running through fairways, but the course also played a whole heck of a lot longer.

[TheCityGame]

3 minutes ago, dcmidnight said:

I've seen that tee box on the left of the path. But put yourself in the mindset and the game of someone who choses that tee box. A 225 yard tee shot, uphill, threading it through a ten yard wide neck? Best of luck. Their approach from that box is probably a 180 yard shot into the fat of the fairway which is at least a better angle.

it's still downhill. And you don't need to thread it through. You're just trying to get a ball within 150 yards of the green. You can be in the right rough (which sometimes kicks things back) or in the left rough (which shortens things). Or, if you do stripe one, you get a kick and hopefully have a shorter iron which would allow a player to not worry about the hazard. no, it doesn't make it easy, but two good shots puts a bogey golfer on the green, and you don't need two A+ shots just to take bogey out of the equation. 

 

it's not a bad hole from there at all. A good player can even try to hit the bomb there and get a 90 yard shot in, with the risk of getting too close to the green and being in the rough. 

 

I played in league there for like 3-4 years. I've played that course over 100 times, with golfers ranging from plus caps to guys who were 20-handicaps for 9 holes.  I always liked it when the tee was there because it meant we probably weren't going to spend 25 minutes on the hole. 

[Puppetmaster]

Any advice on how to save a SS grip - lots of solvent and elbow grease? Have a Flatso I want to transfer, not sure if I should bother pulling it or just order a new one. 

[thechief16]

Lots of solvent and one of those hanger-type grip removal tools.  I've got one if you need to borrow.

[Boogs2]

4 minutes ago, Puppetmaster said:

Any advice on how to save a SS grip - lots of solvent and elbow grease? Have a Flatso I want to transfer, not sure if I should bother pulling it or just order a new one. 

I know exactly how to save a SS grip.

 

Buy a new putter.

[Puppetmaster]

Sooo... I might have bought a putter today... 

 

 

[SullGolf]

I probably play 70/30 blue/white, and I've never played the left teebox there.

 

3 is one of those holes that's just as tough from the whites for me because the junk on the left starts creeping in.  If you hit one in there, you have to drop and then lay up because you have no angle.  It's the worst spot you can be on that hole.  The "safest" way for me to make bogey is to lay back to the fat part of the fairway and try to get it around the green from 180-200 out.  If I hit it in the rough it's a 200 yard shot and I'm probably laying it up.

Edited November 2, 2020 by SullGolf

[Puppetmaster]

22 minutes ago, thechief16 said:

Lots of solvent and one of those hanger-type grip removal tools.  I've got one if you need to borrow.

 

Thanks, I still have my supplies somewhere in the storage room. It's the T-shaped thing with the short handle and long wire end, right? That's down there with all the solvent, epoxy, shafts, etc. Along with 10 dozen balls and 50+ wrap/corded wrap grips who were once promised a better life...  

[ALTSean]

We have a long Par 4 (448 yds from Blue, 464 yds from Black) at Army / Navy.  From the blue tees, a drive of about 250 still leaves you with around 200 yds in over a creek to an elevated green.  There is a large stone retaining wall that keeps the green up away from the creek, but can also repel bad / low shots and is considered an integral object so there is no relief.  If you can drive it 250, then you can probably hit a 200 yd approach, but for guys who may only drive it 220-230, they are not going to hit a 220-230 yd approach over trouble to get on it 2 so they have to lay up to the narrow area and then still hit a delicate pitch across the creek and the stone wall.  The trees line the right side and block you out too if your short or right so it's a hole that really favors length.  It used be a Par 5 like 10+ years ago and so the older members remember it being a 5 and liked it better as a risk / reward Par 5 than a longish Par 4 that plays like a 5 for the shorter and older guys.  It is funny how a hole's par influences our thinking.  The scoring average on this hole likely did not change, but folks were a lot happier with a "par" 5 or "bogey" 6 vice a "bogey" 5 or "double bogey" 6.  It's the #1 rated hole on that 9 and it's tough, but fair IMO.     

 

 

[dcmidnight]

1 hour ago, Puppetmaster said:

Sooo... I might have bought a putter today... 

 

 

 

 

[thechief16]

1 hour ago, Puppetmaster said:

Sooo... I might have bought a putter today... 

 

 

Damn.  You've been using that same putter (won in a WRX test thread?) as long as we have been playing together.

[Puppetmaster]

12 minutes ago, thechief16 said:

Damn.  You've been using that same putter (won in a WRX test thread?) as long as we have been playing together.

 

Don't worry, the old 330M Tank isn't going anywhere. I bought a few putters after getting picked as a tester in 2014(?) and could never replace it. Probably why I never got another testing gig again, I didn't support the product cycles. 😅 

[Puppetmaster]

The bigger test of resilience might actually be that Speeder that I still have in the driver. 

[dcmidnight]

Sidenote - is anyone watching Queens Gambit on Netflix? Watched the first episode last night, really good. I think that makes at least six shows I'm watching now that I cant just grind through, I have to stop and completely start over with a new show.

[FAbb]

I watched the trailer for it.  We may give it a go, but we honestly just haven't been watching much of anything consistently.

[FAbb]

Piggy back on yesterday.

 

Golf Talk Tuesday: Name a hole in the area you feel is unfair, and explain why.

 

[ALTSean]

Golf.com's list of the Top 100 courses in the U.S. for 2020-2021 is out:

 

https://golf.com/travel/courses/golf-top-100-golf-courses-us-2020-2021/

 

Sheep Ranch is in the Top 100 for the first time and so all 5 Bandon courses are in the top 80 of the rankings.