MD/DC/VA Golfers - Twelve Monkeys Mental Divergence

[misplacedtexan83]

Hmmmm.. going to have to post my  modus 120 uncut pulls 

[GooseHook]

2 hours ago, FAbb said:

BST those pulls. I’ve never had better luck selling on the BST than I have the last couple months. 

I will, I will. But so can’t help but try them for just one winter round. It’s. Probably going to be disastrous but I can’t help it.

[SullGolf]

8 hours ago, ALTSean said:

Golf.com just published their rankings for the best courses in each state:

 

https://golf.com/travel/best-golf-courses-every-state-2020-2021-rankings/

 

Maryland and Virginia are copied below:

 

Best Maryland golf courses (2020/2021)
1. Baltimore Country Club, Five Farms Course (Baltimore)
2. Congressional Blue Course (Bethesda)
3. Burning Tree (Bethesda)
4. Caves Valley (Owings Mills)
5. Chevy Chase (Chevy Chase)

 

Best Virginia golf courses (2020/2021)
1. Olde Farm (Bristol)
2. Cascades (Hot Springs) [P]

3. Kinloch (Manakin-Sabot)
4. Robert Trent Jones (Gainesville)
5. Farmington CC – Main (Charlottesville)
6. Ballyhack (Roanoke)
7. Birdwood (Charlottesville)
8. CC of Virginia – James River (Richmond)
9. Keswick Hall – Full Cry (Keswick) [P]

10. Primland – Highland (Meadows of Dan) [3]

 

SYMBOL GUIDE

1 = GOLF Top 100 Course in the U.S.
2 = GOLF Top 100 Course in the World
3 = GOLF Top 100 Resort
P = Resort/public golf course

 

I've ranted about this a lot, but I'll do it again.

 

The list has existed for as long as I can remember, and I think it is single-handedly the most antithetical thing to the "grow the game" movement.  If I were the PGA or USGA or an "influencer" who wanted to "grow the game", this list would be my very first thing to nuke from orbit.  Not reverseable layouts, not walking, not bespoke bags, not pace of play.  All of those things are rounding errors compared to the perception that golf is a game for rich old white men.

 

Why should anyone picking up Golf magazine at the airport care about these courses?  Congressional, Burning Tree, and Chevy Chase are all closer to my house than any public course I can play.   I literally drive by Chevy Chase when I go to play East Potomac.  I literally drive by Burning Tree on my short commute to work.  If I were a poor who could only afford to join Avenel then I'd literally drive by Congo on my way there.  The fact that I have a home that close to those places means the average American would consider me a rich elitist snob.  But I'm not even sniffing the farts of the rich elitist snobs who join those places. 

 

I'm not saying that the people who play at Congo or Burning Tree are better or worse people than me.  And I'm not saying that the people who play at Congo or Burning Tree are more or less enthusiastic about the game than me.  I think the folks paying $100,000 for an initiation have every bit as much love for the game as the folks paying $38 to play the Blue at East Potomac.  I'm extremely envious of the people who have the wealth to spend on those memberships, and hope to be them one day.  But whether their course is #10 or #10000 on the greatest private courses that rich people can play is friggin irrelevant to the game of golf.  The "top 100" list is a waste of ink.

 

 

Edited December 3, 2020 by SullGolf

[misplacedtexan83]

BCC is really good 

[dcmidnight]

6 hours ago, SullGolf said:

The "top 100" list is a waste of ink.

 

I think the national rankings are even worse and honestly I have no idea why magazines continue to waste their time doing it. My guess is that their writers continue to get free rounds at these courses every year and that is why. But who gives AF if I read another damn list with Pine Valley, Augusta and Cypress as the "best courses in the US". I'm sure National Golf Links is up there too. Oh Augusta National is a good course to play, really, oh please please tell me more about it. Please Mr. Oldfartgolfwriter, please tell me more about Hells Half Acre at Pine Valley. If I was an editor at those magazines I would be embarrassed to publish those lists.

 

The public lists I am all about. The "top 20 new courses you can play" lists I'm all about. But then again, the fact that they even have to name it the list of "courses you can play" means they are devoting a significant amount of ink to courses you have no hope in hell of ever seeing in person.

 

Honestly those lists are part of the reason I ended up subscribing to Golfers Journal when it first came out, I was so sick of reading the same crap over and over again between the Golf and Golf Digest lists. Then it turns out I cant cancel my (TWO) GD even if I wanted to, somehow they are linked to our VSGA handicap memberships and we get them every year.

Edited December 3, 2020 by dcmidnight

[FAbb]

Genuine question, @SullGolf.  You said you  hope to have the wealth to join one of those clubs some day.  Why one of those clubs?  Are they not attractive to you in large part BECAUSE they've been shoved in your face year after year on those lists?

 

Flaunting of wealth is as old as wealth itself.  I don't find publishing the same list of elite clubs year after year to be all that egregious in the grand scheme of life.

 

 

The PGA Tour, PGA of America, USGA, and Augusta National holding championships at elite private clubs is every bit as guilty of creating the perception you discussed as the magazines publishing lists, if not more.  Or how about the players when they whine about the way a hole is designed, or when the greens aren't absolutely perfect, when the courses and conditions they encounter are beyond what most golfers will ever experience in their lifetime?

 

Here's a small counterpoint for you - the lists create a huge amount of buzz around those courses.  That helps drive people's interest in playing somewhere they otherwise couldn't, and creates a market for rounds at such courses being auctioned off for charitable causes.

 

I guess I just find the lists to be pretty harmless.

 

[ALTSean]

2 minutes ago, FAbb said:

Genuine question, @SullGolf.  You said you  hope to have the wealth to join one of those clubs some day.  Why one of those clubs?  Are they not attractive to you in large part BECAUSE they've been shoved in your face year after year on those lists?

 

Flaunting of wealth is as old as wealth itself.  I don't find publishing the same list of elite clubs year after year to be all that egregious in the grand scheme of life.

 

 

The PGA Tour, PGA of America, USGA, and Augusta National holding championships at elite private clubs is every bit as guilty of creating the perception you discussed as the magazines publishing lists, if not more.  Or how about the players when they whine about the way a hole is designed, or when the greens aren't absolutely perfect, when the courses and conditions they encounter are beyond what most golfers will ever experience in their lifetime?

 

Here's a small counterpoint for you - the lists create a huge amount of buzz around those courses.  That helps drive people's interest in playing somewhere they otherwise couldn't, and creates a market for rounds at such courses being auctioned off for charitable causes.

 

I guess I just find the lists to be pretty harmless.

 

 

 

I am in this camp.  I like to see the State lists because I naively hope there are some courses I could play.  Looking at the MD & VA lists above, I've only played 1 of those courses and that was 15 years ago in college when I was dating a girl who's family was a member (another story for another forum).  They could at least expand the list to a top 10 or 15 in order to capture a few of the top public / resort courses.  Or publish two lists with "Best in State" and then with "Best Public in State."   

 

I do agree with @dcmidnight that the lists get really repetitive.  I get GD for "free" from the VSGA, but no longer pay for any golf magazine except for The Golfers Journal, which is a great magazine and has nice perks like the annual gift and Linksoul credit.  

 

If you want another "list" to make your head explode, explain these rankings:

 

https://www.platinumclubsofamerica.com/top-150-country-clubs

 

Three of the top 10 country clubs in the country are in this area according to this list, but call me skeptical.  

 

 

[dcmidnight]

Buzz? Lol. Do Pine Valley, Augusta or Merion really need these lists to create buzz for them. People who are (realistically) bidding on rounds at those courses, they don't need Golf Magazine lists to pump up the course rep.

 

This will sound...whatever....but I was completely underwhelmed by my day at Congressional. With 2,000 or 3,000 members, that's definitely not a place people join because they want to be in the Tuesday night beer league and/or post 100 rounds a year. Also I ended up practice putting on the chipping green and Fluff was laughing at me.

 

BTW I took Sully's comment to mean more that he wouldn't mind being a member somewhere nice - not necessarily the places next door to his house.

[Johnny T]

I saw Birdwood (which is the UVA course) on the VA list and thought "wtf? That place wouldn't make the top 25 public courses in the state."  Turns out they just had DLIII redesign the place.  Prices increased substantially after the redo. 

 

The good news - it's public so commoners like Sully can still play it.  

[ALTSean]

6 minutes ago, Johnny T said:

I saw Birdwood (which is the UVA course) on the VA list and thought "wtf? That place wouldn't make the top 25 public courses in the state."  Turns out they just had DLIII redesign the place.  Prices increased substantially after the redo. 

 

The good news - it's public so commoners like Sully can still play it.  

 

Good catch that Birdwood is open to the public.  The golf.com list omitted the "P" next to Birdwood.  Offseason rates don't look too bad between now and March so I wonder how are the course conditions.  

 

[dcmidnight]

I liked Birdwood when I played a tournament there a few years ago, with a redesign its probably pretty sweet. Looks like offseason weekend rates are around $90-100? That doesn't seem too out of line for higher end public courses, pretty sure my buddy said Whiskey wants $120 on weekends now. LOL to that. The Birdwood par 3 course looks cool too but it looks like its only open to hotel guests.

 

Looking at this list makes me remember how far you can drive in Virginia and really not get anywhere. Primland is 5.5 hours from me.

[Johnny T]

1 minute ago, ALTSean said:

 

Good catch that Birdwood is open to the public.  The golf.com list omitted the "P" next to Birdwood.  Offseason rates don't look too bad between now and March so I wonder how are the course conditions.  

 

From the price I hope they would be pretty good.  It's about double what it used to be.  Spring Creek isn't too far of a drive from Birdwood so you could probably make a weekend of it.

[GooseHook]

If you took away the cathedralesque clubhouses, took away the names, and gave them all the same maintenance budget, I wonder what the list would look like. Part of the reason these courses are rated so consistently high is their architecture and the names behind them. 

 

Some of these places are even national memberships and some of their roster doesn't even play the course but once or twice a year. I'm sure I'd  join one if I had F-U money, but that's an entirely different situation than a golfer who wants access to a local club whenever they want. 

[SullGolf]

I said I was ranting, not that it made full logical sense.  I meant that I hope to be that wealthy, not that I hope to join those places.

 

The level of wealth Id need to have to consider spending that much on golf is pretty darn high.  It’s enough that I wouldn’t be working any longer, and thus probably wouldn’t be living close to those courses in the first place.  

Edited December 3, 2020 by SullGolf

[misplacedtexan83]

Just now, SullGolf said:

I said I was ranting, not that it made full logical sense.  But I also said that I hope to be that wealthy, not that I hope to join those places.

 

The level of wealth Id need to have to consider spending that much on golf is pretty darn high.  It’s enough that I wouldn’t be working any longer, and thus probably wouldn’t be living close to those courses in the first place.  

Sully this is a safe place buddy. 

[ALTSean]

8 hours ago, misplacedtexan83 said:

BCC is really good 

 

Sooooo, when are we playing BCC?

[SullGolf]

I’m open to changing my mind if any of you are Congo, Chevy, or Burning Tree members and want to invite me out.

[tungstenplug]

.

Edited February 26, 2023 by tungstenplug

[dcmidnight]

41 minutes ago, GooseHook said:

If you took away the cathedralesque clubhouses, took away the names, and gave them all the same maintenance budget, I wonder what the list would look like. Part of the reason these courses are rated so consistently high is their architecture and the names behind them. 

 

Some of these places are even national memberships and some of their roster doesn't even play the course but once or twice a year. I'm sure I'd  join one if I had F-U money, but that's an entirely different situation than a golfer who wants access to a local club whenever they want. 

 

Its funny, you compare two of the F-U money places like Caves and Congressional - IMO the attitude/vibe/scene could not have been more different. 

[gregh729]

I played Congo once, about 15 years ago. One of the guys I played softball with married into money. His FIL belongs. The course was great, but it was very stuffy. I think I paid around $250 guest rate. The softball guy is a serious D-Bag, but with a couple of the other guys on the team it was a fun day. He did put the post round beers on the patio on his (father in laws) membership

 

I've played Cascades twice and don't get the high rating. Nice course, great resort, but nothing so special that I would put it in the top Hundo

[thechief16]

I read Sull as he wanted to be rich AF, not that he wanted to be a member at Congo.

 

And yes, to DC's point, there are multiple levels of FU money/private clubs.   The vibe at Congo is one of the worst I have ever seen.  Baltusrol is pretty bad too.  But there are a s*** ton of private clubs in New England, including a handful that are regularly in these top 100 lists, that have the chillest possible scene you could imagine (unless you want to use your cell phone anywhere but in the parking lot).     

[thechief16]

6 minutes ago, gregh729 said:

I played Congo once, about 15 years ago. One of the guys I played softball with married into money. His FIL belongs. The course was great, but it was very stuffy. I think I paid around $250 guest rate. The softball guy is a serious D-Bag, but with a couple of the other guys on the team it was a fun day. He did put the post round beers on the patio on his (father in laws) membership

 

I've played Cascades twice and don't get the high rating. Nice course, great resort, but nothing so special that I would put it in the top Hundo

Full agreeance.  Totally pedestrian.

[J13]

I've played Congo quite a few times and Caves.  All great places but all very different.  Caves is very corporate and they don't want to see you much even if you are a member haha.  Congo is great, love the Blue course and the clubhouse is sick. 

 

With that said I belong to Eagles Nest CC which had everything i wanted.  It's a family oriented club without pretentious nonsense, very much a burger and beer type of crowd that likes to play music while they play and have a great time.  We have a decent amount of good players so i can always find a money game.  I looked at BCC especially when i was under 40 and I loved the courses but the people and rules were not for me.  

 

 

[dcmidnight]

I heard the membership director at Eagles Nest is kind of a D...but whatever, that's just what I've heard...

[dcmidnight]

I thought about getting a non-resident membership at Caves after we played there, I liked it that much. If you lived - at least this was as of a few years ago - outside of the 60 mile radius or so, the memberships options they had were not of the 6 figure variety. I loved the place. But yes, it was not the kind of place where they wanted you there every day grinding out a long range sesh. At the time they were building some nice cottages onsite where you could stay if you came for a night or two.

[FAbb]

We pretty quickly went from "these top 100 lists are toxic for the game!" to people putting rulers to their you know what and measuring based on what high-end clubs they've played.

 

 

[bubbagump]

2 minutes ago, FAbb said:

We pretty quickly went from "these top 100 lists are toxic for the game!" to people putting rulers to their you know what and measuring based on what high-end clubs they've played.

 

 

[dcmidnight]

6 minutes ago, FAbb said:

We pretty quickly went from "these top 100 lists are toxic for the game!" to people putting rulers to their you know what and measuring based on what high-end clubs they've played.

 

 

 

List of people who played both Congo and Caves with me

 

SaltyFabb

 

That's the list...

[J13]

21 minutes ago, FAbb said:

We pretty quickly went from "these top 100 lists are toxic for the game!" to people putting rulers to their you know what and measuring based on what high-end clubs they've played.

 

 

 

Greg Norman wins that contest haha

[thechief16]

I figured someone would take it that way. Kinda hard to have a knowledgable discussion about the topic without relating personal experiences.

 

FWIW, are there any actual golfers who care about "growing the game"? I suppose in a secondary sense in that it makes sure that their courses stay open.  But those who want to "grow the game" are those who make money off it -- equipment manufacturers, public golf course owners, TV networks and USGA/PGA.  I'd prefer we not grow game and let Brad and Chad go back to playing darts and beer pong.

 

But I am a self-admitted elitist.

Edited December 3, 2020 by thechief16