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Lesson Learned, New isn't always better!


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So my unintended experiment in irons has come to an end. I had been paying a set of Ping G5 irons for the last 9 years. This year I decided it was time for a change, After goign to a demo day I settled on a set of Titleist AP1 irons with the AWT Red shaft. in terms of loft it htese Titleist play one club stronger (ie my Ping g5 7 iron is 34 degrees, the Titleist is 30 and so on). After around 8 round or so I came to the conclusion that the new Titleist were not a good fit. Yes, they were definitely longer even more so than just reflective in loft, but I had inconsistent ball flight. I hot alot of low shots, pushed shots, just never consistent compared to my old G5's. So I bit the bullet and sold them on Ebay earnign back nearing what I paid.

 

Still I wasnt satisfied and decided that perhaps Ping was a better fit, ran out and bought a set of Ping G irons with the AMT shafts. Again, lofts stronger club to club compared to the G5's. After playing several rounds I consistently was not longer club to club and in fact seemed to be leaving shots short. Ball flight was okay but again compared to the consistency of my G5's. they simply didnt measure up for me. I guess the moral here at least for me is, sometimes newer just isnt better. The G5's consistently provide me with better ball flight, accuracy and consistent distance that I just never saw from either the Titleist or the Ping G30's. Its back to my old set and frankly, I see no reason to experiment any further. I already have a buyer for the Ping G30's at a loss of $100 (not terrible).

 

Anyone else have similar experiences with older irons?

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Just the opposite on my recent change. I swapped out a set of original Ping Rapture irons for Ping G400’s. The G400’s are longer (even taking the modern lofts into consideration), more forgiving, and definitely straighter. I didn’t really have much of an adjustment period other than learning the distances. The biggest difference has been the longer irons. I’d gone hybrid four and five in place of the Rapture long irons due to inconsistency. The four and five iron in the G400’s are ridiculously easy to produce with. I almost feel like I’m cheating.

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Just the opposite on my recent change. I swapped out a set of original Ping Rapture irons for Ping G400's. The G400's are longer (even taking the modern lofts into consideration), more forgiving, and definitely straighter. I didn't really have much of an adjustment period other than learning the distances. The biggest difference has been the longer irons. I'd gone hybrid four and five in place of the Rapture long irons due to inconsistency. The four and five iron in the G400's are ridiculously easy to produce with. I almost feel like I'm cheating.

Thats definitely good! Truth be told, I really liked the distance with the Titleist AP1 but could not find consistency with ball flight. Too many low shots, pushes etc. That was quite frustrating. The G irons surprised me in how they were just not any longer than my existing irons which greatly defeats the purpose of purchasing a new set. Ive heard some older Ping players say that the G5's were one of the 2 or 3 best set of irons Ping ever produced. I am starting to believe it now.
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I currently have two newer sets sitting here that do go longer but I don't feel like I gain any lower scores with them. I will say that one set is closer to my current i5's and I probably could use them without too much trouble and some practice if I didn't have the i5's. I do like the added distance I can get from the newer sets and they still hit the ball high enough to land soft.

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I currently have two newer sets sitting here that do go longer but I don't feel like I gain any lower scores with them. I will say that one set is closer to my current i5's and I probably could use them without too much trouble and some practice if I didn't have the i5's. I do like the added distance I can get from the newer sets and they still hit the ball high enough to land soft.

Definitely seems to me like they did a great job with the G5. Funny when I was talking to oen fo the Golf Pros at a local shop, he said to me in reality the only really reason to buy new clubs is distance. If in general your ball flight, dispersion and accuracy is relatively consistent the biggest gain in new clubs is distance, some of which is attributable to stronger lofts. In that case he said suck up your pride and hit the next stronger lofted iron. Only person that knows you hit a 7 instead of an 8 or vice versa is you!
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I currently have two newer sets sitting here that do go longer but I don't feel like I gain any lower scores with them. I will say that one set is closer to my current i5's and I probably could use them without too much trouble and some practice if I didn't have the i5's. I do like the added distance I can get from the newer sets and they still hit the ball high enough to land soft.

Definitely seems to me like they did a great job with the G5. Funny when I was talking to oen fo the Golf Pros at a local shop, he said to me in reality the only really reason to buy new clubs is distance. If in general your ball flight, dispersion and accuracy is relatively consistent the biggest gain in new clubs is distance, some of which is attributable to stronger lofts. In that case he said suck up your pride and hit the next stronger lofted iron. Only person that knows you hit a 7 instead of an 8 or vice versa is you!

 

If only that were true! I have a golf buddy that asks me all the time, whether I hit first or he does but some times I mess with him. He was a club longer than me before I took 8-9 years off from the game and now since I got back into it, he is about 2 clubs longer. I know some of it is just me and having to get a swing back. He still uses the X-20 irons I sold him that long ago! :)

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This goes against 99.99999999999999% of all posts ever written on this site.

 

Please leave your GolfWRX membership card at the door. ;)

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its not the club, its the shaft.

 

You have been playing for very long time your irons. when considering new its required some adapting to it. Shaft weight, i've learned is the main issue when changing.

 

But the real question, you should consider, is what you're looking to improve from old irons?

those G5 are some shovels!

I think you are correct about the shaft vs the head itself. Both the Titleist AP1 718 and the Ping G uses AMT/ AWT style shafts. The only difference between the heads in both is the Titleist is a narrower sole and I am a bit of a digger so thats not necessarily a perfect fit for me. I think its likely that the shatf in the G5's is a better fit and as a result I see better results..
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Probably related to shaft and lie angle differences. Weighting too can throw you off from one set to another. Having played that set for so long it would be hard to imagine that you would get to the same comfort level with a new set in a short time period. Probably after a year of practice and play with the new set, the Pings would feel weird.

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Odyssey #1

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Probably related to shaft and lie angle differences. Weighting too can throw you off from one set to another. Having played that set for so long it would be hard to imagine that you would get to the same comfort level with a new set in a short time period. Probably after a year of practice and play with the new set, the Pings would feel weird.

I I dont thin it would long to get used to a set. When I went from my TM Burners to the Ping G5, they were great from the get go. I didnt experience that with the Titleist or the Ping G. I am thinkings its more about shaft than anything else
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its not the club, its the shaft.

 

You have been playing for very long time your irons. when considering new its required some adapting to it. Shaft weight, i've learned is the main issue when changing.

 

But the real question, you should consider, is what you're looking to improve from old irons?

those G5 are some shovels!

I think you are correct about the shaft vs the head itself. Both the Titleist AP1 718 and the Ping G uses AMT/ AWT style shafts. The only difference between the heads in both is the Titleist is a narrower sole and I am a bit of a digger so thats not necessarily a perfect fit for me. I think its likely that the shatf in the G5's is a better fit and as a result I see better results..

 

What are your issues with current clubs?

What you want to improve?

 

The best thing for you, it would be to do’s fitting. Taking your old club and telling the guy what you want to improve.

 

If you’re only looking to update your clubs. Search for a similar shaft. Weight and flex. Understand flex point I. Actual shafts and copy that.

Try also to copy the length, lie angle and swing weight.

 

Maybe G500 or G700

Maybe TM M4 are some options.

 

 

The G30 are very good clubs.

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A big Amen to that Lesson OP!... :good:

 

:golfer:

[b]What's in Bobcat's Bag? (Showing more than 14 clubs due to options)[/b]

Driver: TM 2015 9.5* SLDR-C - 45.5" Miyazaki Kusala Black 61s (tipped 1/2")
Fairway: TM Tour-iussue V-Steel 15* 3W - 43.25" Fujikura 757 Speeder Stiff
Hybrid Fairway: TM Rescue Fairway 15* '3-Strong'- 42.75" Fujikura VP-90 Stiff
Hybrids: TM Rescue-Mid TP's 19*(3H) & 22*(4H) - Fujikura Vista Pro 90 Stiff
Driving Irons: TM TP UDI's 16* (#1) & 20* (#3) - KBS C-Taper Lite 110 Stiff Shafts
Irons: TM 2015 SLDR Irons (5-8i only) - KBS C-Taper Lite 110 Stiff Flex Steel
Hybrid Wedges: Cleveland 2011 Niblicks - 42*PW /49*DW / 56*SW - Stock Steel
Wedge: 2011 Cleveland CG-16 Black Pearl 58*/8* (SW/LW) - Stock Steel Shaft
Putter: Bettinardi BBX-81 Blade - 35" Bettinardi Stock Steel Putter Shaft
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I bet the shafts were much lighter in the new clubs. Doesn’t suit everyone.

Sim 2 Max 10.5 @ 11.25 Tensei CK Blue 60X
3 Wood - Titleist TSI 2 - 15 degree - Tensei CK Blue 75X

Titleist 816 H2 - 21 (C1) Aldila Rogue Black 85X 
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Vokey SM7 46.10, 50.08, 54M, 59M - S400
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It was certainly the case for me when I switched from G20 to G30 irons that new wasn't better. Not a single thing about the G30 suited me as well as the G20 had. Shafts, weight and balance were the same. Soles were skinnier, CG wasn't as low and back, MOI wasn't as high.

 

Add in the fact those G30's were the first set of irons since 2001 I'd bought new off the rack at retail price and it was totally a lesson learned. Fortunately, I only played them a year and a half before stumbling across a new set of Ping G irons for 400 bucks. The G's I actually think all considered I prefer to my old G20 set but it's a close call.

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And when the morning light comes streaming in

I'll get up and do it again

Amen.

Say it again

Amen.

 

Somehow, the OP got me reminiscing about Jackson Browne and my history as a ho.

 

Guess you and I are both "happy idiots"...struggling for the legal tender

I haven't found a way around the struggle but hopefully we can be happy while working on the idiot part. :derisive:
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There's a reason Webb, Adam, D.A., Steve Stricker, and many more guys on tour play irons, woods, or putters that are 10+ yrs old.

 

Some are just better made or better designed...or at least they prefer that iron more ( Titleist 681 MB, 712 AP2, 2013 X-Forged, Ping i5, VR Pro Blades, Srixon 745, etc.)

AB TP 10.5*/ DI6X
AB TP 3HL / 757
XTD 19*/ Fubuki Ax
DWS 24*/ VS Proto
J15 CB 5-PW/ Modus 3 125S
X-Forged MD (50*, 56* 60*)
Spider Si/ SS Mid SLim 2.0

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I would recommend you get a great fitter first. My last set was 4 years ago and I just spent the last 4 months with three fitters to review their fitting method and input. 90% was the shafts 10% heads. I wanted a particular head shaft combination but it just wouldn’t perform based on me. To my chagrin the winner is Black TM 790’s with Accra 70i shaft 5 - AW with Vokey 54S and 58D Accra 80i

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Been having an up and down tee game this season. Started decently but has taken a negative turn the last month and a half. Couple weeks ago, put persimmons in my bag as a reset button of sorts. Was hitting them better than I'd been hitting the Ti sticks.

 

Yesterday, pulled out the metal woods again, a SuperDeep and a Mizuno T-Zoid forged 3w (13*). Hit them fairly well, reaching a par 5 in two with the 3w, where I was only hoping to get to pitch/chip territory. Today, was in the golf club room, ran across my Fly-Z+. I put it together again with the 7m3 I'd assembled for it, at 44", tossed it in the bag.

 

First shot today, cold, was not good. Thinking "here we go again." Don't hit it again until 4th hole, I hit one pretty good into a 15-20 mph wind, straight. Two holes later, another 20-30 yds longer, still into the wind. The next two holes go back the other way, I hit one uphill longer yet, then hit what is close to my longest drive of the season, a distance territory I hadn't seen since May.

 

Yes, I think it's earned some further bag time.

 

I realize a Fly-Z+ isn't all that old, but it sort of is, in WRX years. ;)

The Ever Changing Bag!  A lot of mixing and matching
Driver: Original One 11.5* (tuned down), Motore Speeder 6.3 TS X -or- Fly-Z+, Matrix 7m3 X, 43.5" 

3w: King LTD, Aldila RIP Beta 90 X -or- TM Stage 2 Tour, BiMatrix Proto Lime X
Hybrid:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour 2h or 3h, NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S

Irons grab bag:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4; 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S
Wedges:  Dynacraft Dual Millled 52*, SteelFiber i125 S -or- Scratch 8620 DD 53*, SteelFiber i125 S; PM Grind 19 58*; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, Dynamic S
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GripMaster Roo or Kidd leather grips

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I had the opposite experience. Been playing some Adams Insight irons for about the last 10 years. Went to a Ping demo day yesterday and was amazed at the difference. Not only were the clubs longer but I was hitting them higher and more accurate than I ever have. Went from a uniflex shaft to a stiff nippon pro 105. I was actually hitting down on the ball and making solid contact. Now I'm just ready for the new irons to arrive.

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Just the opposite on my recent change. I swapped out a set of original Ping Rapture irons for Ping G400's. The G400's are longer (even taking the modern lofts into consideration), more forgiving, and definitely straighter. I didn't really have much of an adjustment period other than learning the distances. The biggest difference has been the longer irons. I'd gone hybrid four and five in place of the Rapture long irons due to inconsistency. The four and five iron in the G400's are ridiculously easy to produce with. I almost feel like I'm cheating.

Thats definitely good! Truth be told, I really liked the distance with the Titleist AP1 but could not find consistency with ball flight. Too many low shots, pushes etc. That was quite frustrating. The G irons surprised me in how they were just not any longer than my existing irons which greatly defeats the purpose of purchasing a new set. Ive heard some older Ping players say that the G5's were one of the 2 or 3 best set of irons Ping ever produced. I am starting to believe it now.

 

ADB,

I mentioned to you in your other thread about the AP1's being disappointing that you might find yourself hitting shots to the right with irons other than the G5s. Ping moved weight out to the toe beginning with the G10s, sort of like they had originally done with the Zings and Zing2's, except less jarring to look at. The reason was that lots of players, and I'm one of them, found that they hooked the G5s badly. If you did NOT hook the G5's, then help in closing the face was/is perfect for you, and that's great. (FWIW, I think the i5s are the irons that you still see in the bags of good players and that most consider to be one of the great sets of irons ever made by ANY company, but that's quibbling.)

 

As to the title of the thread, you are spot on that new is not better; better is better. But I will say this, and I say it without much fear of being wrong; there are irons out there now that are longer, straighter, and more forgiving than the G5's. That the AP1's and G30's didn't suit your swing has nothing to do with whether or not there are irons that will improve your results. The increments of improvement might be smaller than you expect, or they might not be worth the money, but they are there; too much head and shaft technology has come thru the pipeline since the G5s came out in 2005.

 

One way to approach this is to think about what you want out of a club that your current club(s) aren't providing. Farther? Higher? Straighter? More help on off-center hits? Workability? Graphite shafts? There is a universe of difference between working with a club fitter with a definite idea of what you are trying to accomplish, vs. going to a demo day or a store with the idea that you are going to pick a new club out of all of the possibilities. Your use of the G5s is a binary situation; either they are THE best iron for you out of all of the possibilities out there, OR there are better options that address some issue in your ball flight or game. The former is possible but unlikely, which means the latter is likely but has to be uncovered. Perhaps if you are more clear in your own mind about what you are looking for, and then work with a good club fitter to find that, you will get a better result than you got with the AP1s or G30s.

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Just the opposite on my recent change. I swapped out a set of original Ping Rapture irons for Ping G400's. The G400's are longer (even taking the modern lofts into consideration), more forgiving, and definitely straighter. I didn't really have much of an adjustment period other than learning the distances. The biggest difference has been the longer irons. I'd gone hybrid four and five in place of the Rapture long irons due to inconsistency. The four and five iron in the G400's are ridiculously easy to produce with. I almost feel like I'm cheating.

Thats definitely good! Truth be told, I really liked the distance with the Titleist AP1 but could not find consistency with ball flight. Too many low shots, pushes etc. That was quite frustrating. The G irons surprised me in how they were just not any longer than my existing irons which greatly defeats the purpose of purchasing a new set. Ive heard some older Ping players say that the G5's were one of the 2 or 3 best set of irons Ping ever produced. I am starting to believe it now.

 

ADB,

I mentioned to you in your other thread about the AP1's being disappointing that you might find yourself hitting shots to the right with irons other than the G5s. Ping moved weight out to the toe beginning with the G10s, sort of like they had originally done with the Zings and Zing2's, except less jarring to look at. The reason was that lots of players, and I'm one of them, found that they hooked the G5s badly. If you did NOT hook the G5's, then help in closing the face was/is perfect for you, and that's great. (FWIW, I think the i5s are the irons that you still see in the bags of good players and that most consider to be one of the great sets of irons ever made by ANY company, but that's quibbling.)

 

As to the title of the thread, you are spot on that new is not better; better is better. But I will say this, and I say it without much fear of being wrong; there are irons out there now that are longer, straighter, and more forgiving than the G5's. That the AP1's and G30's didn't suit your swing has nothing to do with whether or not there are irons that will improve your results. The increments of improvement might be smaller than you expect, or they might not be worth the money, but they are there; too much head and shaft technology has come thru the pipeline since the G5s came out in 2005.

 

One way to approach this is to think about what you want out of a club that your current club(s) aren't providing. Farther? Higher? Straighter? More help on off-center hits? Workability? Graphite shafts? There is a universe of difference between working with a club fitter with a definite idea of what you are trying to accomplish, vs. going to a demo day or a store with the idea that you are going to pick a new club out of all of the possibilities. Your use of the G5s is a binary situation; either they are THE best iron for you out of all of the possibilities out there, OR there are better options that address some issue in your ball flight or game. The former is possible but unlikely, which means the latter is likely but has to be uncovered. Perhaps if you are more clear in your own mind about what you are looking for, and then work with a good club fitter to find that, you will get a better result than you got with the AP1s or G30s.

Thanks. Great feedback. I have not given up on the G Irons (you referred to the G30's by mistake I believe). I think part of the issue at the moment appears to be my swing has gone south it seems since doing away with the Titleist AP1's. I dont know that the AP1's were going to be a great fit overall as I azm a bit of digger taking large divots whereas the wider sole of the Pings should help with that. My other complain about the AP1's is admittedly I am not a huge fan of the polished soles. I think over time as they wear clubs with shiny polished soles look terrible. In any event, I am headed over to the launch monitor today to compare my G5, the G30 and whatever else as a starting point.
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In my experience there is an adjustment period when changing clubs. The duration of the adjustment period depends on what all changed. Changing only the clubhead will be a shorter duration than changing clubhead, shafts, and grips. Personally, I’ve found that upwards to two hundred swings are needed to really get comfortable with new clubs, though I should point out that I’m usually having to deal different grips, shafts, and clubheads since I typically buy used clubs and play them as they are.

 

If you are fighting the clubs (suggestive of a bad fit) or you flush a couple shots but don’t like the feel, then there’s no need to continue trying to adjust if you have he option to try something different.

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So my unintended experiment in irons has come to an end. I had been paying a set of Ping G5 irons for the last 9 years. This year I decided it was time for a change, After goign to a demo day I settled on a set of Titleist AP1 irons with the AWT Red shaft. in terms of loft it htese Titleist play one club stronger (ie my Ping g5 7 iron is 34 degrees, the Titleist is 30 and so on). After around 8 round or so I came to the conclusion that the new Titleist were not a good fit. Yes, they were definitely longer even more so than just reflective in loft, but I had inconsistent ball flight. I hot alot of low shots, pushed shots, just never consistent compared to my old G5's. So I bit the bullet and sold them on Ebay earnign back nearing what I paid.

 

Still I wasnt satisfied and decided that perhaps Ping was a better fit, ran out and bought a set of Ping G irons with the AMT shafts. Again, lofts stronger club to club compared to the G5's. After playing several rounds I consistently was not longer club to club and in fact seemed to be leaving shots short. Ball flight was okay but again compared to the consistency of my G5's. they simply didnt measure up for me. I guess the moral here at least for me is, sometimes newer just isnt better. The G5's consistently provide me with better ball flight, accuracy and consistent distance that I just never saw from either the Titleist or the Ping G30's. Its back to my old set and frankly, I see no reason to experiment any further. I already have a buyer for the Ping G30's at a loss of $100 (not terrible).

 

Anyone else have similar experiences with older irons?

 

I do agree, newer isn't always better...

Generally speaking, it takes about a season to hone into a new set. Loft, length, shaft flex, torque, distance, ball flight, etc… takes time. Once we get used to something, it’s a hard habit to break.

Driver: Ping G400 Max 10.5 Stock Alta (need shaft fitting)
Fairway Wood: Ryoma F5
Hybrid: TaylorMade M6 4H & 6H
Irons: OnOff Kuro 2015 6 - PW
Wedge: Cleveland RTX4 50, 54 and 58
Putter: S.C. GoLo 3
Ball: TaylorMade TP5X
Club hoe, builder, fitter and tester as hobbyist since 1993

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I had the opportunity to go hit my old G5's, G and the G400 on thelaunch monitor today. Used my G5 6 iron as that is equivalent in loft to the other two. What I discovered was interesting. Distance wise the G5 as similar in distance to the G, but had better spin rates. The G400 was better than both. The spin rate, launch angle and distance all superior to the other two irons. The G400 was 7-9 yards longer at 1 degree less loft. That is pretty significant. Also the Pro I was working with told me he plays a set of G400 and has seen how is mishits off the toes somehow manage to stay in play compared to his previous set of irons. The reviews I have seen onlien from guys like Rick Sheils etc prove out the distance gains in the G400 over its predecessors the G and G30's. So, once i sell off the G's I am going to go back and get fitted for the G400's.

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