who has actually played with a legit scratch golfer/pro level player?

[J Bez]

Best player I ever played with regularly played D1 golf and played with some guys who made it on tour.  Said his game was no where near theirs.  But in the 2 years he was a member of our club he finished 2nd in the State Am, was medalist at USGA Mod Am - not the qualifier, the race to match play.  In 2 years saw him hit one bad shot - tried driver off the deck from a downhill lie.  Never did anything super impressive, never needed to.  In the mid 90’s we played out course at 67-6800 and he would always hit 15 plus greens.  You would think he was just plodding along then look at the card and he had birdied 3 of the last 5 holes.  No bogeys and it was the most boring 69 you’d ever see....

[lchang]

Got paired up with a kid at our club who was a +5 at the time (He's a mere +3.5 now.)  He's 15.  He looked like he was 5'10", 145 pounds soaking wet.  Probably carried it 280+.  Saw him hit only one bad shot over 15 holes (he didn't finish his round).  Fun to watch.

[Fairway14]

On 10/29/2020 at 8:54 AM, phil75070 said:

I've played with pros JC Snead, Larry Mowry, Bob Eastwood and Hubert Green in Champions Tour Pro-ams back in 1996 and 2001. 

 

I admired the late Hubert Green's game but don't know much about his personality. Any stories you can share of your time on this course with him would be appreciated.

Edited October 31, 2020 by Fairway14

[phil75070]

11 hours ago, Fairway14 said:

 

I admired the late Hubert Green's game but don't know much about his personality. Any stories you can share of your time on this course with him would be appreciated.

I would say of the four that I played with Green was the most approachable and talkative. Answered any questions we had, walked with us down the fairway instead of riding in a cart as so many do during Pro-ams on that tour. Many years have passed so I don't recall much specific discussions other than I remember we talked about how caddies are compensated and his comments that deals varied from one to the next. He also helped us with lining up putts as I recall. At that time, he, himself, was putting with a mallet putter with a wooden head and really couldn't putt very well with it.

 

J.C. Snead was riding in a cart and kept pretty much to himself for the first 6 holes or so until his young, attractive "niece" poked him in the ribs and pushed him to join us on the tee and talk with us as those "amateurs pay big money to play with you pros." 

 

Larry Mowry was a very nice guy and his caddie gave me a lot of tips I still use to this  day. I still communicate with Larry from time-to-time on Twitter.

 

Bob Eastwood I have little memory of interacting with. His son was his caddie and they both kept pretty much to themselves.

[Fairway14]

40 minutes ago, phil75070 said:

I would say of the four that I played with Green was the most approachable and talkative. Answered any questions we had, walked with us down the fairway instead of riding in a cart as so many do during Pro-ams on that tour. Many years have passed so I don't recall much specific discussions other than I remember we talked about how caddies are compensated and his comments that deals varied from one to the next. He also helped us with lining up putts as I recall. At that time, he, himself, was putting with a mallet putter with a wooden head and really couldn't putt very well with it.

 

J.C. Snead was riding in a cart and kept pretty much to himself for the first 6 holes or so until his young, attractive "niece" poked him in the ribs and pushed him to join us on the tee and talk with us as those "amateurs pay big money to play with you pros." 

 

Larry Mowry was a very nice guy and his caddie gave me a lot of tips I still use to this  day. I still communicate with Larry from time-to-time on Twitter.

 

Bob Eastwood I have little memory of interacting with. His son was his caddie and they both kept pretty much to themselves.

 

Thanks for your reply. Here is a photo from about 1980 of Seve Ballesteros, Jackie Nicklaus, Hubert Green, Fuzzy Zoeller, Raymond Floyd all watching Jack Nicklaus demonstrate a pitch shot.

[olliemc84]

I had the privilege of playing with a D1 player a month or so ago.  He was playing a different game than anyone else.  Basically automatic with the putter and he never left himself more than 15ft from the hole.  It was a blast to watch.

[CMCSGolf]

28 minutes ago, olliemc84 said:

I had the privilege of playing with a D1 player a month or so ago.  He was playing a different game than anyone else.  Basically automatic with the putter and he never left himself more than 15ft from the hole.  It was a blast to watch.

I'm not sure if you meant this literally that good players never leave themselves more than 15 feet from the hole or if this guy had a heck of a day, but it's really important to understand how inaccurate this idea is.  We think pros stuff it all the time and make every 10 footer because the leaders on TV do, but most don't each week.  The best player on the PGA tour averaged just under 15 feet from 100-125 yards last season:  https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.074.y2020.html

 

This means that a good D1 player is most likely averaging over 25 feet with a wedge in their hand.  Scratch players are remarkably consistent, but most are low because they don't make mistakes, not because they hit every approach to 15 feet (as many posts have already said).

[olliemc84]

6 minutes ago, CMCSGolf said:

I'm not sure if you meant this literally that good players never leave themselves more than 15 feet from the hole or if this guy had a heck of a day, but it's really important to understand how inaccurate this idea is.  We think pros stuff it all the time and make every 10 footer because the leaders on TV do, but most don't each week.  The best player on the PGA tour averaged just under 15 feet from 100-125 yards last season:  https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.074.y2020.html

 

This means that a good D1 player is most likely averaging over 25 feet with a wedge in their hand.  Scratch players are remarkably consistent, but most are low because they don't make mistakes, not because they hit every approach to 15 feet (as many posts have already said).

 

I was giving my personal experience playing with an OU golfer.  It was literal.   Had nothing to do with stats from around the tour.

 

He definitely averaged less than 25 feet with a wedge in his hand THAT DAY.

[stecho67]

I worked for a couple tour players in 2011-2013 (road manager / agent - got to go to all 4 majors in 2013), so i got to play with them quite often and i also spent a lot of time with them on the practice ranges at tour events and walk the courses during practice rounds.  For me the biggest difference is (i'm sure many of you know) consistency and management.  Their misses are light years better than any amateur.  

[J13]

Someone said it earlier in the thread but as a +1hcp myself I play in money games 95% of the time and the other 5% i'm usually on course practicing by myself.  I typically like to play money games with other players at the same level because strokes aren't involved.  This is a BIGGIE as there are so many baggers out there it's just easier to play a game with no strokes.  With that said I've recently started playing in a weekly event at my club where they pair up A,B,C,D players on a team (fun golf with a little cash on the line).  I've played with a lot of guys i normally wouldn't have otherwise and they make comments about how it was fun to play with me and see the ball flights ect..   

 

To be honest neither i or anyone else at the scratch and + level think about that.  We just play and hope to shoot a good number.  It catches me off guard when someone makes a big deal out of playing with me, it's kind of uncomfortable as I don't consider myself any different than anyone else on the course.  But I also understand they mean it as a compliment.  They make comments like "why aren't you on tour" or "you are carrying the ball 350yds". 

 

1. I immediately tell them I'm not even close to a pro on tour (I've played with some and got destroyed)

2. I tell them my carry is nowhere close to that and more like 285yds.  Their perception of distance gets worse the higher the handicap.  I have guys tell me they hit it 300yds on a good drive meanwhile it's really like 240yds.

 

Overall I will play with anyone regardless of hcp as long as they play 18 holes in 4hrs or less.  

[NRJyzr]

32 minutes ago, J13 said:

...I tell them my carry is nowhere close to that and more like 285yds.  Their perception of distance gets worse the higher the handicap.  I have guys tell me they hit it 300yds on a good drive meanwhile it's really like 240yds.

 

 

You hit a memory trigger for me with the above...

 

I was playing in same foursome with a friend of a friend.  #12 on our course is 331 yard par 4, straight.  He hit a good tee shot in the fairway, started going on about his 300 yd drive.  He had 60-something yards left, and the hole was playing 12 yards shorter than the 331 on the card, but all that added up to a 300 yard drive, somehow.

 

I pointed out he had 60 yards left, and the hole is only 331.  His response, "yeah, 300 yards."

 

OK Gus, if you say so.

 

Edited November 2, 2020 by NRJyzr

[Long_Left]

I had the pleasure of playing with Loren Roberts in the mid 90s as he was contending on Tour. College roommate's older brother had a couple years in MLB and had made a few friendships along his athletic career.

 

I hadn't been playing golf for more than a couple years at this point and was all about bombing driver that day to say I could hit it father than a tour pro, ignorance of youth...

 

Far and away the best golf I have ever seen played and it was 100% casual. He was MUCH larger physically than I expected him to be, overwhelmingly nice, and his swing appeared effortless. Brilliant short game and putting stroke. I regret not paying closer attention at the time...

 

I've played with several guys in the +3 range but it's always an "arranged" game, I play mostly as a single or with a buddy of mine who is about a 12 and we get paired with way more 20+s than even single digits. All public golf. The only random pairings (maybe 5 times) I've had in the 20+ years at my home course is the college kids, some of which are incredibly impressive.

 

I also got the chance to play with a woman Division 1 player from Scotland thru the University of Arkansas as part of a fundraiser scramble. She didn't miss a full swing that day and she was over 10 shots back of the leader after the first day of the tourney.

 

Truly good golf is a pleasure to watch up close, I wish I had more opportunity to see it and learn as I'm now old enough to pay attention!

[golfday]

About 7 or 8 years ago I played from time to time with two guys that were on what was then known as the eGolf tour. Every time I played with them it made me think I should quit and turn pro because they weren't that impressive devoting all of their time to it compared to me who put in an hour or two a week plus one round (when it was nice out).

 

I've also played with a former D1 All American in his 40's who only plays once a month or so, and I was amazed at how well he could still play. Every fairway and every green. That made me realize how many "pros" there are, but how big the gap from top to bottom is.

 

Lastly, I worked one summer with two D3 all-americans (they were interns, I was a caddie) and a couple of D1 dropouts who were caddying / attempting to go pro. The D3 guys were VERY good. Neither made it, but both are now respected teachers and work at nice clubs.

[CMCSGolf]

Thinking about this question a bit differently, what do you think the median round looks like for a standard +1 handicap?  This is obviously a very good player capable of shooting in the mid 60s occasionally, but I think a lot of people are overstating how good these guys look on a normal day.  On a hot day, sure it can be unbelievable.  But what would their stats be for the 8th best round in their handicap differential?

 

I think it would looks something like 8/14 fairways, 11/18 greens, 3 birdies (hit a par 5 in two, roll in one 20 footer, make another 6 footer), get up and down 50% of the time, and shoot 73 on normal course.  It would look relatively unremarkable.  Any 18 handicap could hit the exact same shots for a few holes.  What really separates is the consistency.  A lot of posts have shared good stories about catching a good player in a good day, that's abnormal.  Once you internalize that the best players in the world only make 50% of their 8 footers and then understand that a +1 is shooting over par more often than not, you can get closer to understanding what good golf actually looks like.  It rarely looks like it does on TV.

[J13]

4 minutes ago, CMCSGolf said:

Thinking about this question a bit differently, what do you think the median round looks like for a standard +1 handicap?  This is obviously a very good player capable of shooting in the mid 60s occasionally, but I think a lot of people are overstating how good these guys look on a normal day.  On a hot day, sure it can be unbelievable.  But what would their stats be for the 8th best round in their handicap differential?

 

I think it would looks something like 8/14 fairways, 11/18 greens, 3 birdies (hit a par 5 in two, roll in one 20 footer, make another 6 footer), get up and down 50% of the time, and shoot 73 on normal course.  It would look relatively unremarkable.  Any 18 handicap could hit the exact same shots for a few holes.  What really separates is the consistency.  A lot of posts have shared good stories about catching a good player in a good day, that's abnormal.  Once you internalize that the best players in the world only make 50% of their 8 footers and then understand that a +1 is shooting over par more often than not, you can get closer to understanding what good golf actually looks like.  It rarely looks like it does on TV.

 

Agree.  As a +1 I typically shoot around par give or take a few shots. 

I play well - ---mid to high 60's. 

I play solid- --i'll shoot around par. 

I play just ok- i'll be around 75. 

I play bad---- i'm around 78

[Long_Left]

2 minutes ago, CMCSGolf said:

Thinking about this question a bit differently, what do you think the median round looks like for a standard +1 handicap?  This is obviously a very good player capable of shooting in the mid 60s occasionally, but I think a lot of people are overstating how good these guys look on a normal day.  On a hot day, sure it can be unbelievable.  But what would their stats be for the 8th best round in their handicap differential?

 

I think it would looks something like 8/14 fairways, 11/18 greens, 3 birdies (hit a par 5 in two, roll in one 20 footer, make another 6 footer), get up and down 50% of the time, and shoot 73 on normal course.  It would look relatively unremarkable.  Any 18 handicap could hit the exact same shots for a few holes.  What really separates is the consistency.  A lot of posts have shared good stories about catching a good player in a good day, that's abnormal.  Once you internalize that the best players in the world only make 50% of their 8 footers and then understand that a +1 is shooting over par more often than not, you can get closer to understanding what good golf actually looks like.  It rarely looks like it does on TV.

Reading back through this thread brought me to the same point, you stated it well.

 

I played yesterday from one set forward of my "normal" tees (6500 at 3000ft elevation, 69.4/125ish I think) to play with the random twosome I was paired with. I put my clubs up at the beginning of October and yesterday was my first round out in a month. I shot a fairly eventful 77, hit the ball all over the place and made a couple putts from 15+ feet and several in the 8-12 range. The two guys I played with were in complete awe, both took up golf this year as COVID rookies, neither had a putt inside 20 feet for par all day. It was a good time, we got around in 3.5 hours and it reminded me to not be so hard on myself as a 6 (homer 6, probably a 9 on the road.) Reminded me of playing against some really solid players where it felt like they would never miss a shot and I couldn't even dream of being that good.

[Jimjam651]

On 11/2/2020 at 6:59 PM, CMCSGolf said:

I'm not sure if you meant this literally that good players never leave themselves more than 15 feet from the hole or if this guy had a heck of a day, but it's really important to understand how inaccurate this idea is.  We think pros stuff it all the time and make every 10 footer because the leaders on TV do, but most don't each week.  The best player on the PGA tour averaged just under 15 feet from 100-125 yards last season:  https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.074.y2020.html

 

This means that a good D1 player is most likely averaging over 25 feet with a wedge in their hand.  Scratch players are remarkably consistent, but most are low because they don't make mistakes, not because they hit every approach to 15 feet (as many posts have already said).

 

Great post!

[jackmfarrow]

My impression wasn’t that they hit a staggering amount of good shots, they just hardly hit any bad shots.
 

Also just about every putt felt like it might go in. 

[Brunchz0r]

Played with quite a few minipro tour golfers. Around a +4-6 handicap I would presume. They always shoot in the 60's from back tee (7000~ yards). They rarely miss in bad spots, and almost always scramble like maniacs.

 

And I always lose.

[OnTheBag]

21 hours ago, jackmfarrow said:

My impression wasn’t that they hit a staggering amount of good shots, they just hardly hit any bad shots.
 

Also just about every putt felt like it might go in. 

With 30+ years caddying on the 4 major tours, I've played a lot of casual rounds with professionals.  This is exactly the difference between them and us.  In my younger days, I wasn't too shabby myself (mini-tours in the '70's and 80's, deep + hcp, etc...) and I couldn't compete with them on a daily basis.  

 

It isn't the good shots that separate them and us, it is the bad shots or lack there of.

[Pastit]

6 minutes ago, OnTheBag said:

With 30+ years caddying on the 4 major tours, I've played a lot of casual rounds with professionals.  This is exactly the difference between them and us.  In my younger days, I wasn't too shabby myself (mini-tours in the '70's and 80's, deep + hcp, etc...) and I couldn't compete with them on a daily basis.  

 

It isn't the good shots that separate them and us, it is the bad shots or lack there of.

Driving par 4’s is out of my league along with medium-iron 2nd shots into par 5’s. For me, the around the green play/ putting is not so different though they get spin on very short shots but the pitch-shot quality with guaranteed spin is outstanding. 

[North Butte]

There's a consistency component to it. I'm extremely familiar with a guy who plays on various mini-Tours and I've seen him play in person a good bit. On his best days he's just a tiny fraction below, say, a replacement-level Korn Ferry player. He can really turn it on for 18 holes...maybe twice a year. 

 

The guys who end up on Tour have a mode that generates rounds like his "twice a year" rounds with great regularity. More like once or twice a week. And their next level down, when they feel like they're kind of scraping it around, is so much better. The mini-Tour guy's next level below his best is awesome to me, watching as a double digit handicapper. But it's going to have a handful of pretty bad shots that put him playing recovery and grind out a bogey on holes where he should be putting for birdie.

[Bye]

56 minutes ago, North Butte said:

There's a consistency component to it. I'm extremely familiar with a guy who plays on various mini-Tours and I've seen him play in person a good bit. On his best days he's just a tiny fraction below, say, a replacement-level Korn Ferry player. He can really turn it on for 18 holes...maybe twice a year. 

 

The guys who end up on Tour have a mode that generates rounds like his "twice a year" rounds with great regularity. More like once or twice a week. And their next level down, when they feel like they're kind of scraping it around, is so much better. The mini-Tour guy's next level below his best is awesome to me, watching as a double digit handicapper. But it's going to have a handful of pretty bad shots that put him playing recovery and grind out a bogey on holes where he should be putting for birdie.

I completely agree on the consistency element. There are lots of people who are exceptional for 18 holes but are not able to maintain it for 36 let alone 72. 

[farmer]

I went to a course opening where Julius Boros was playing some local hot dogs.  This was way deep in his career, he was no longer an active tour player.  He didn't hit it very far, but every shot had that "sound".  He was about as casual as could be, visited with the gallery, was generally as nice as anyone could hope.  Damndest thing on the greens, he took one look and never had more tan a tap in for a second putt.  He blistered the locals.  Literally better with a 2 iron that the locals were with short irons.  Whole different world.  also wore that butt-ugly Amana hat.

Edited November 14, 2022 by farmer

[Medson]

Playing consistent (or boring) golf is a big eye opening experience for me. 

 

On 2 separate occasions, I played with 2 high school golfers who would play college golf later on. They were plus handicap at the time. Just very boring golf. No big misses that require heroic recovery shot. No draining birdies left and right. 

 

The first time I paired with the high school kid. I didn't even think she's good as there was no big "wow" moment. I went home and was thinking that "she must be shooting around even par cuz I can't remember she bogey'ed any hole." Then, I looked up her name and saw she's one of the best junior golfers in the area. 

[Ifelloffladder]

There are mostly range pros in my group.

[Ray Jackson]

Played 18 holes with Jay Haas back in 2011. 
 

played 3 holes with Phil the thrill about 5 yrs ago. 

[mjtoal]

Loads of legit scratch/plus handicaps - best one a +4 at a NW England links who smoothed it round in 64 on a breezy while the 4 handicap laboured to score mid 70s and I was not close to breaking 80 off 9. 

 

Darren Clarke as an amateur in his impersonating Greg Norman days, high and straight at the flag for every shot. Stupidly long compared to the rest of us. 

 

A few club pros at local Pro-ams - varied between solid players and really good, even when not really trying.

 

Oliver Fisher, 18 holes at the BMW Pro-Am at Wentworth. 67 shots, could have been a bit better.

 

Robert Garrigus, when transitioning from Nationwide to PGA Tour. He could shift it out there. Hit one of the best shots I have ever seen, a majestic 3 iron faded onto a par-5 green from 245. By fade, I mean arrow straight to the apex of the flight, then feathered down slightly to the right, landed like it had a parachute. 

 

Nick Faldo, one hole at a corporate.

[wobgon]

I have played with quite a few PGA tour pros in pro ams, casual rounds and money games at our club when i was in Virginia....I was never nearly as impressed with their overall distance as I was with their distance control....Seemed like everyone of them hit their irons within a few yards of their desired distance just about every time.

[ZacR88]

My regular group consists of myself ( +1 HCP) and two other guys who are Pro, trying to get status on Korn Ferry right now. They didnt get through Q school this year. They both play to something like a +5 or +6 HCP. 

 

That being said, I hit the ball like them, as far, etc. They just know how to score better than me ( your average club scratch guy) and their short game is just much more dialed in.