Taylormade M5 & M6 Woods - Pics added page 46

[BearQ]

I 100% agree about the personal preference but if the ball speeds are higher with the callaway it would be hard to ignore but I don't think there will be a huge jump in either in ball speeds

 

Not sure how they'd get it any higher without it being illegal. Maybe higher across more of the face...

 

Yeah I mentioned this in the cobra thread. What’s left to do. Just make the clubs look better...go back to proven classic looks and new looks that are sharp not gimmicky. Emphasis on great feel/acoustics. I don’t think any more help in forgiveness or speed is necessary at this point...we have incredible tech as is

[Gary Gutful]

The average golfer is still completely hopeless.

 

I reckon forgiveness and ease of use will continue to improve. It will be subtle and incremental but there is no way that things have maxed out.

[Z1ggy16]

I 100% agree about the personal preference but if the ball speeds are higher with the callaway it would be hard to ignore but I don't think there will be a huge jump in either in ball speeds

 

Not sure how they'd get it any higher without it being illegal. Maybe higher across more of the face...

 

Yeah I mentioned this in the cobra thread. What's left to do. Just make the clubs look better...go back to proven classic looks and new looks that are sharp not gimmicky. Emphasis on great feel/acoustics. I don't think any more help in forgiveness or speed is necessary at this point...we have incredible tech as is

Basically what's left is to make the club so forgiving and so hot across the entire face that you can get the same ball speed no matter where you strike it.

 

But at that point... is golf really even a skilled game anymore? There would be no reward for center strikes and the game would turn into swinging as fast as physically possible and try to launch the ball as far you can. Courses would need to change drastically...players would change....the game would be totally different.

 

I'm not in the loop anymore, but what about college baseball? I know when I was in the game there was talks about restricting the speed at which the ball could come off the bat due to safety concerns. This was 10+ years ago.... Yet I haven't really heard about Easton baseball going out of business due to stalling of technology. There had to be "advancements" each year, otherwise sales would plummet.

 

The current game of golf is pretty much at that point. I imagine bat companies would work on technology that would allow hitters to hit the ball on a larger portion of the bat, i.e. make the "sweet spot" as large as possible. This would be like increasing forgiveness and keeping ball speeds up as high as possible all over the club face.

[Valtiel]

I 100% agree about the personal preference but if the ball speeds are higher with the callaway it would be hard to ignore but I don't think there will be a huge jump in either in ball speeds

 

Not sure how they'd get it any higher without it being illegal. Maybe higher across more of the face...

 

Yeah I mentioned this in the cobra thread. What's left to do. Just make the clubs look better...go back to proven classic looks and new looks that are sharp not gimmicky. Emphasis on great feel/acoustics. I don't think any more help in forgiveness or speed is necessary at this point...we have incredible tech as is

 

Eh, I think the last frontier is in crown material personally. We've yet to get the vertical CoG of a driver to the visual center of the face, let alone below it. An advancement in materials that would allow for lighter and stronger crowns IMO is the white whale in driver tech, it would be the next "loft up" trend except it would actually be good for the average golfer. Spin numbers would plummet allowing for higher lofted heads to be used and you'd see another decent jump in distance because high launch/low spin would be much easier to achieve. At THAT point I don't think there would be anywhere left go, but as it stands right now we haven't been able to get the CG of drivers meaningfully low yet.

[bladehunter]

I 100% agree about the personal preference but if the ball speeds are higher with the callaway it would be hard to ignore but I don't think there will be a huge jump in either in ball speeds

 

Not sure how they'd get it any higher without it being illegal. Maybe higher across more of the face...

 

It will be off center. It was with rogue.

[Z1ggy16]

I 100% agree about the personal preference but if the ball speeds are higher with the callaway it would be hard to ignore but I don't think there will be a huge jump in either in ball speeds

 

Not sure how they'd get it any higher without it being illegal. Maybe higher across more of the face...

 

Yeah I mentioned this in the cobra thread. What's left to do. Just make the clubs look better...go back to proven classic looks and new looks that are sharp not gimmicky. Emphasis on great feel/acoustics. I don't think any more help in forgiveness or speed is necessary at this point...we have incredible tech as is

 

Eh, I think the last frontier is in crown material personally. We've yet to get the vertical CoG of a driver to the visual center of the face, let alone below it. An advancement in materials that would allow for lighter and stronger crowns IMO is the white whale in driver tech, it would be the next "loft up" trend except it would actually be good for the average golfer. Spin numbers would plummet allowing for higher lofted heads to be used and you'd see another decent jump in distance because high launch/low spin would be much easier to achieve. At THAT point I don't think there would be anywhere left go, but as it stands right now we haven't been able to get the CG of drivers meaningfully low yet.

Somebody should check me, but I believe the LTD and LTD pro had the VCog below the neutral axis. I don't think any driver since then has.

 

Also, again...somebody correct me, but I thought when you drive the CG very low it raises launch and lowers spin, thus you need lower lofts, not higher. This was the whole foundation from OEM's for "jacked up lofts" in today's irons. They said due to the mega low CG's they had to lower lofts in order to keep peak height reasonable. That's why you see clubs like the 7i of an M2 with 4000 spin and carries 170 rolling out to 190.

[Valtiel]

I 100% agree about the personal preference but if the ball speeds are higher with the callaway it would be hard to ignore but I don't think there will be a huge jump in either in ball speeds

 

Not sure how they'd get it any higher without it being illegal. Maybe higher across more of the face...

 

Yeah I mentioned this in the cobra thread. What's left to do. Just make the clubs look better...go back to proven classic looks and new looks that are sharp not gimmicky. Emphasis on great feel/acoustics. I don't think any more help in forgiveness or speed is necessary at this point...we have incredible tech as is

 

Eh, I think the last frontier is in crown material personally. We've yet to get the vertical CoG of a driver to the visual center of the face, let alone below it. An advancement in materials that would allow for lighter and stronger crowns IMO is the white whale in driver tech, it would be the next "loft up" trend except it would actually be good for the average golfer. Spin numbers would plummet allowing for higher lofted heads to be used and you'd see another decent jump in distance because high launch/low spin would be much easier to achieve. At THAT point I don't think there would be anywhere left go, but as it stands right now we haven't been able to get the CG of drivers meaningfully low yet.

Somebody should check me, but I believe the LTD and LTD pro had the VCog below the neutral axis. I don't think any driver since then has.

 

Also, again...somebody correct me, but I thought when you drive the CG very low it raises launch and lowers spin, thus you need lower lofts, not higher. This was the whole foundation from OEM's for "jacked up lofts" in today's irons. They said due to the mega low CG's they had to lower lofts in order to keep peak height reasonable. That's why you see clubs like the 7i of an M2 with 4000 spin and carries 170 rolling out to 190.

 

That is true regarding the LTDs, but the F6+, XR16 Sub Zero, and M1 430 achieved this as well with the M1 430 being the potential lowest of the bunch and its vertical CoG is still a whole groove above the visual center of the face. You are right though in that it this has not been achieved since then, although the Rogue Subzero was close.

 

A lower CG does indeed raise launch and lower spin, however Tom Wishon addressed the the whole "jacked lofts" debate regarding that and provided evidence that its merely a red herring that OEMs used to justify the lower lofts. The CG of irons has not moved significantly at all.

 

Regarding drivers though, it would be more about optimizations for the masses. A driver that naturally launches higher and spins lower would definitely benefit the average golfer and those with negative AoAs to help optimize their launch conditions more easily. The low strike is also super common and would become much less penal to your launch conditions as well.

[Darth_Fader]

How is it possible that no one has pics yet?! :)

[Trav1989]

I don't know if no pictures are a good sign or a bad sign.

[bladehunter]

Was present for the TM reps stop by yesterday and it was funny. He had no product to show ,called it “ driver A and driver B , but said they would require a stock order BEFORE the product was seen. Supposedly in an effort to keep leaks down. Getting pretty cloak and dagger . Or stupid if you prefer

[getitdaily]

Was present for the TM reps stop by yesterday and it was funny. He had no product to show ,called it “ driver A and driver B , but said they would require a stock order BEFORE the product was seen. Supposedly in an effort to keep leaks down. Getting pretty cloak and dagger . Or stupid if you prefer

 

Did he note a targeted release date?

[Z1ggy16]

 

Somebody should check me, but I believe the LTD and LTD pro had the VCog below the neutral axis. I don't think any driver since then has.

 

Also, again...somebody correct me, but I thought when you drive the CG very low it raises launch and lowers spin, thus you need lower lofts, not higher. This was the whole foundation from OEM's for "jacked up lofts" in today's irons. They said due to the mega low CG's they had to lower lofts in order to keep peak height reasonable. That's why you see clubs like the 7i of an M2 with 4000 spin and carries 170 rolling out to 190.

 

That is true regarding the LTDs, but the F6+, XR16 Sub Zero, and M1 430 achieved this as well with the M1 430 being the potential lowest of the bunch and its vertical CoG is still a whole groove above the visual center of the face. You are right though in that it this has not been achieved since then, although the Rogue Subzero was close.

 

A lower CG does indeed raise launch and lower spin, however Tom Wishon addressed the the whole "jacked lofts" debate regarding that and provided evidence that its merely a red herring that OEMs used to justify the lower lofts. The CG of irons has not moved significantly at all.

 

Regarding drivers though, it would be more about optimizations for the masses. A driver that naturally launches higher and spins lower would definitely benefit the average golfer and those with negative AoAs to help optimize their launch conditions more easily. The low strike is also super common and would become much less penal to your launch conditions as well.

Ah, interesting I didn't know M1 430 went that low.

 

Oh, yes I totally agree about the whole jacked lofts thing, I was just kind of paraphrasing what OEM's told us golfers about the crazy loft changes. It's an arms race for distance in the SGI market.

 

Couldn't agree more though about getting launches up for the everyday golfer. My miss is low on the face as well, but I have high-ish club head speed. So I still tend to get fit into 9* heads, but with my low miss hits, I often have launch issues. I'd LOVE a head that allowed a strike under the physical center line of the club to still launch around 9* or higher. With my old M2 I was lucky to see 7-8* on my bad hits. Then I'd try to start hitting more up on the ball to raise launch but it only made it worse because I exposed more of the bottom of the face.

[bladehunter]

Was present for the TM reps stop by yesterday and it was funny. He had no product to show ,called it “ driver A and driver B , but said they would require a stock order BEFORE the product was seen. Supposedly in an effort to keep leaks down. Getting pretty cloak and dagger . Or stupid if you prefer

 

Did he note a targeted release date?

 

All I heard was “ after the first of the year “.

 

To qualify this. The rep is a “ new guy “ as the old rep left. Hard to tell how much of his tight lipped ness was him and how much was coming from above him. And I don’t work there. Just well acquainted with the owners and am a regular pop in during new product time ( and all other times. Lol ). I clarified all of that with the owner after the rep left. He was one who told me “ yea. First time ever we’ve had to order a product before we saw it. Don’t know if that’s a good thing or a bad thing “. This is a green grass shop since the 70s.

[Smitty120]

No Product to show bc they are behind and rushing to have it ready for early in the year? :busted_cop:

[bladehunter]

No Product to show bc they are behind and rushing to have it ready for early in the year? :busted_cop:

 

that was the question we were left with ... No product showing because its that great and hush hush ? Or..... because it isnt ready ? dont know

[Z1ggy16]

No Product to show bc they are behind and rushing to have it ready for early in the year? :busted_cop:

There's two options -

 

1) The product is SO good, they don't want any other OEM's to 'steal' their ideas and get a leg up on next year's or out year product

2) The product is underwhelming and they don't want people starting rumors and talking it down while Epic Flash, F9, etc all get fawned over

 

To me, seems like #2 is more likely. Letting little leaks on Twitter or IG slip around this time of the year is crucial to keeping the 'spark' alive for a product. To get and keep people talking, to make them feel anxious/excited over it's release, which in turn will get them in to stores hitting it the moment it comes out. Plus, all the contacts on this website with insider connections and knowledge... There would almost certainly be a leak by now, regardless of the penalty TM could possibly impose on somebody.

 

Us wacko golfers love a good ol fashion cryptic internet post with half the driver shadow'ed out, using all the buzzwords, right? It's kind of like the internet famous types that cause a sh!tstorm to get attention - Bad press is better than NO press.

[BoSoxTMaG]

TM National Sales meeting is this week. Early fitting events for premier accounts booked for 12/13 and 12/19. Commercials have already been shot. You'll see pictures soon.

[bladehunter]

TM National Sales meeting is this week. Early fitting events for premier accounts booked for 12/13 and 12/19. Commercials have already been shot. You'll see pictures soon.

 

with all this secrecy they better bring it , or else will get flamed off the map .... 1st time ive ever heard of Nobody here having seen these before a early fitting event ... If its another R15 type rehash it wont be pretty.

[Z1ggy16]

TM National Sales meeting is this week. Early fitting events for premier accounts booked for 12/13 and 12/19. Commercials have already been shot. You'll see pictures soon.

 

with all this secrecy they better bring it , or else will get flamed off the map .... 1st time ive ever heard of Nobody here having seen these before a early fitting event ... If its another R15 type rehash it wont be pretty.

Look at G410 as example. Ping doesn't take the same flamboyant approach Callaway or TM does, but we've at least got some pretty solid "rumors" floating around the site about the details on the design, etc.

 

It's either going to blow our pants off or we'll have a hard pass.

[bladehunter]

TM National Sales meeting is this week. Early fitting events for premier accounts booked for 12/13 and 12/19. Commercials have already been shot. You'll see pictures soon.

 

with all this secrecy they better bring it , or else will get flamed off the map .... 1st time ive ever heard of Nobody here having seen these before a early fitting event ... If its another R15 type rehash it wont be pretty.

Look at G410 as example. Ping doesn't take the same flamboyant approach Callaway or TM does, but we've at least got some pretty solid "rumors" floating around the site about the details on the design, etc.

 

It's either going to blow our pants off or we'll have a hard pass.

 

Yep. For me. A guy who has a couple ins to see this stuff before most , the leaks etc are what sell it initially. As in I’ve bought some drivers I hated because of it. Stupid ? Yes. But. I’m certain I’ve sold a few more to people here and pals just with the initial hype. Then reality sets in , rinse and repeat. This time I get to skip that. And just not buy unless it’s wonderful . Makes no sense to me. The leak hype has to generate more sales all over.

[Z1ggy16]

TM National Sales meeting is this week. Early fitting events for premier accounts booked for 12/13 and 12/19. Commercials have already been shot. You'll see pictures soon.

 

with all this secrecy they better bring it , or else will get flamed off the map .... 1st time ive ever heard of Nobody here having seen these before a early fitting event ... If its another R15 type rehash it wont be pretty.

Look at G410 as example. Ping doesn't take the same flamboyant approach Callaway or TM does, but we've at least got some pretty solid "rumors" floating around the site about the details on the design, etc.

 

It's either going to blow our pants off or we'll have a hard pass.

 

Yep. For me. A guy who has a couple ins to see this stuff before most , the leaks etc are what sell it initially. As in I've bought some drivers I hated because of it. Stupid ? Yes. But. I'm certain I've sold a few more to people here and pals just with the initial hype. Then reality sets in , rinse and repeat. This time I get to skip that. And just not buy unless it's wonderful . Makes no sense to me. The leak hype has to generate more sales all over.

In order to sell me this year, TM will need to actually show/prove they've stepped up their forgiveness game a bunch. I highly doubt they or really anybody will match Callaway on ball speeds, but the "average golfer" needs a drive that gives them the ideal launch and spin but keeping speeds up all over the face. I'd gladly sacrifice 2mph overall if it means my miss hits retain more speed everywhere on the face.

 

Nothing kills me more than a drive struck 3mm below the center line and 2mm heel that looses 6+mph speed. M4 was especially horrible on even marginally low contact.

 

Golf should still remain a skilled sport; I don't expect or want a driver to go 100% distance struck off the hosel, but I shouldn't lose 30 yards because I hit it just a hair low off center. Just my humble .02

[bladehunter]

Agree. And it bettter retain a good shape and sound. I don’t know. To me. The m3-m4 line was just like the R15. A placeholder till something else came along. I tested both against my 17 m1 and I’d have bought the m1 for same money before I bought m3 or m4. Tested m3-m4 a lot and never bought one. That’s saying something for a driver ho like me.

[getitdaily]

Agree. And it bettter retain a good shape and sound. I don’t know. To me. The m3-m4 line was just like the R15. A placeholder till something else came along. I tested both against my 17 m1 and I’d have bought the m1 for same money before I bought m3 or m4. Tested m3-m4 a lot and never bought one. That’s saying something for a driver ho like me.

 

I tested the m4 recently and it beat my 16 m2...it was really good for me.

[chris975d]

Was present for the TM reps stop by yesterday and it was funny. He had no product to show ,called it " driver A and driver B , but said they would require a stock order BEFORE the product was seen. Supposedly in an effort to keep leaks down. Getting pretty cloak and dagger . Or stupid if you prefer

 

Yeah, had the same meeting a few weeks ago. Wanted me to commit to a stock order, and being on staff with TM before hitting, or even seeing the product. Didn't make much sense to me. While Callaway is shipping its staff members/staff accounts the Epic Flash (for the staff players) in the next couple of weeks. Total opposite approaches.

[bladehunter]

Was present for the TM reps stop by yesterday and it was funny. He had no product to show ,called it " driver A and driver B , but said they would require a stock order BEFORE the product was seen. Supposedly in an effort to keep leaks down. Getting pretty cloak and dagger . Or stupid if you prefer

 

Yeah, had the same meeting a few weeks ago. Wanted me to commit to a stock order, and being on staff with TM before hitting, or even seeing the product. Didn't make much sense to me. While Callaway is shipping its staff members/staff accounts the Epic Flash (for the staff players) in the next couple of weeks. Total opposite approaches.

 

Exactly . Same shop owner/pro I spoke of has been fitted and expects to have his flash early next week. Seems like s big gamble by TM.

[TinkerGolfMan]

No Product to show bc they are behind and rushing to have it ready for early in the year? :busted_cop:

 

Seriously...

[stanger37]

Was present for the TM reps stop by yesterday and it was funny. He had no product to show ,called it " driver A and driver B , but said they would require a stock order BEFORE the product was seen. Supposedly in an effort to keep leaks down. Getting pretty cloak and dagger . Or stupid if you prefer

 

Yeah, had the same meeting a few weeks ago. Wanted me to commit to a stock order, and being on staff with TM before hitting, or even seeing the product. Didn't make much sense to me. While Callaway is shipping its staff members/staff accounts the Epic Flash (for the staff players) in the next couple of weeks. Total opposite approaches.

 

Exactly . Same shop owner/pro I spoke of has been fitted and expects to have his flash early next week. Seems like s big gamble by TM.

 

I don't see a benefit of this for TM aside from getting their money up front. For those that work in shops, how are the P760s and GAPRs doing? Seem to put a lot into those clubs and right away on here at least, lot of people didn't buy into the looks of either. and that is the first thing that attracts you to a club. After at least the GAPR some people on here seemed to not hate it as much in person. So is TM trying to get people to see it in person instead of an online picture to judge? If nothing else, could be a good way for the shops to get some foot traffic in the stores and sell other items if they market it off as an event to see the club on day of release. Interesting tactic by trying to gain interest by being so secretive. big time gamble.

[jbole267]

Was present for the TM reps stop by yesterday and it was funny. He had no product to show ,called it " driver A and driver B , but said they would require a stock order BEFORE the product was seen. Supposedly in an effort to keep leaks down. Getting pretty cloak and dagger . Or stupid if you prefer

 

Yeah, had the same meeting a few weeks ago. Wanted me to commit to a stock order, and being on staff with TM before hitting, or even seeing the product. Didn't make much sense to me. While Callaway is shipping its staff members/staff accounts the Epic Flash (for the staff players) in the next couple of weeks. Total opposite approaches.

 

Exactly . Same shop owner/pro I spoke of has been fitted and expects to have his flash early next week. Seems like s big gamble by TM.

 

I don't see a benefit of this for TM aside from getting their money up front. For those that work in shops, how are the P760s and GAPRs doing? Seem to put a lot into those clubs and right away on here at least, lot of people didn't buy into the looks of either. and that is the first thing that attracts you to a club. After at least the GAPR some people on here seemed to not hate it as much in person. So is TM trying to get people to see it in person instead of an online picture to judge? If nothing else, could be a good way for the shops to get some foot traffic in the stores and sell other items if they market it off as an event to see the club on day of release. Interesting tactic by trying to gain interest by being so secretive. big time gamble.

 

 

Work in industry and have found the following:

 

GAPR -- Hasn't been selling that great, been so so at best.

P760 -- Good feedback on them for those that hit but unless you're getting clubs free or extremely discounted than people see them as too close to their P790-770-750 irons.

 

Working in the shop at course, we rarely have people come in specifically for clubs off the shelf, I believe there is a large reliance on online platforms and think Taylormade is going to miss the mark unless its truly something special and they get people hyped soon.

[chris975d]

Was present for the TM reps stop by yesterday and it was funny. He had no product to show ,called it " driver A and driver B , but said they would require a stock order BEFORE the product was seen. Supposedly in an effort to keep leaks down. Getting pretty cloak and dagger . Or stupid if you prefer

 

Yeah, had the same meeting a few weeks ago. Wanted me to commit to a stock order, and being on staff with TM before hitting, or even seeing the product. Didn't make much sense to me. While Callaway is shipping its staff members/staff accounts the Epic Flash (for the staff players) in the next couple of weeks. Total opposite approaches.

 

Exactly . Same shop owner/pro I spoke of has been fitted and expects to have his flash early next week. Seems like s big gamble by TM.

 

I don't see a benefit of this for TM aside from getting their money up front. For those that work in shops, how are the P760s and GAPRs doing? Seem to put a lot into those clubs and right away on here at least, lot of people didn't buy into the looks of either. and that is the first thing that attracts you to a club. After at least the GAPR some people on here seemed to not hate it as much in person. So is TM trying to get people to see it in person instead of an online picture to judge? If nothing else, could be a good way for the shops to get some foot traffic in the stores and sell other items if they market it off as an event to see the club on day of release. Interesting tactic by trying to gain interest by being so secretive. big time gamble.

 

I don't see it helping them get money up front, honestly. I don't know many GMs/equipment buyers (at least at my level, green grass/golf course) that are going to commit to TMs desired prebook inventory levels without even seeing a picture of the new clubs, much less holding them in hand. There's way too many good clubs coming down the pipeline for next year (Epic Flash, PING G410, Srixon 585/785) that, as a buyer, I can already/have already held and seen with my own eyes to put in my shop than to take a chance on a product I can't even see yet. And TM is running a big gamble here...for most of us green grass shop buyers, we have already put in our prebook orders for next gen club launches at this point...and most of us don't have the shop space or inventory $$s to do a big prebook with one of the other companies, then come back in another month or so (TM reps aren't even seeing the new stuff until next week) with another large TM prebook. We usually have one major company we can buy in with. And TM just may be missing/have missed those by not having product ready to show.

[Rig14Port]

I said last year when Taylormade started threatening legal action after photos were leaked that their marketing teams absolutely DO NOT want club details, pics, data, etc. out prior to their marketing schedule. These company spend mega bucks on branding and they want to control what, when, and how information is made available to the public. If images leak and Taylormade isn't prepared to follow the leak with the marketing campaign - as was the case last year - then it gives consumers the opportunity to speculate and start forming their own opinions, fact or fiction, about the product.

 

I think the "top secret-ness" of this release is silly. However, Taylormade is obviously trying to protect their brand/products in hopes that they can generate more sales interest via a strategic marketing plan.