How is Cantlay not getting penalised?

[jasonfish11]

And whose opinions differ? The rule is clear. If a group is put on the clock, each player is timed. The amount of time is spelled out clearly and varies according to the situation as it should.

 

I don't see it as vague nor confusing. It's very clear to me.

 

Lets assume I'm an official at your event.

 

Define "off the pace" to me.

[nsxguy]

There are two issues here;

 

1. The rules: Is Cantlay violating a rule? Nobody has presented evidence that he is violating a rule or getting special treatment.

 

 

There is a problem with the rule. It's so vague that there are differing opinions on what consists of "breaking the rule."

 

Is taking more than 40 seconds from when you get to your ball to when you hit it breaking the rule, is it 60 seconds? Can you only break the rule if you are more than a hole behind?

 

 

Here is the only thing I could find on the write up of the "slow play penalty" for the PGA tour. I put it in comic sans because that seems super appropriate. Finding evidence of someone breaking a rule that is this vague and has this much level of time required to validate is going to be nearly impossible, given that TV coverage will never show an entire group that is out of position for the entire hole. The best we will be able to do as spectators is provide subjective evidence. We know PGA tour rounds are at a snails pace, we know Cantlay's routine is slower than Christopher Reeve with 2 flat tires in wet sand. But can we "prove" he's broken this rule. No, but sometimes circumstantial evidence is enough to prove reasonable doubt.

 

 

PGA Tour slow play rules and penalties are based on what the tour calls "bad times." Let's say Group X has fallen off the pace and is out of position (meaning, too much space - usually a full hole - has opened between this group and the group ahead of it).

 

 

 

 

A rules official or Tour official will notify all players in the group that the group is being put "on the clock." Once a group is on the clock, PGA Tour officials begin timing each player. Once that timing of a group begins, each player has 40 seconds to play each stroke, except in the following cases when he has 60 seconds:

• He is the first of his group to play from the teeing ground of a par-3 hole;
  
• He is the first to play a second shot on a par-4 or par-5;
  
• He is the first to play a third shot on a par-5;
  
• He is the first player to play around the putting green;
  
• He is the first to play on the putting green.
  

A player who can't meet those requirements is informed that he has a "bad time." A bad time can, in theory, lead to penalty strokes or even disqualification from a PGA Tour event. The slow play penalty process goes like this:

• The player receives a warning for his first "bad time" of the round.
  
• If he records a second bad time in the same round, he gets a 1-stroke penalty and $5,000 fine.
  
• If he records a third bad time in the same round, he gets a 2-stroke penalty and a $10,000 fine.
  
• If he records a fourth bad time in the same round, he is disqualified.
  

 

And whose opinions differ? The rule is clear. If a group is put on the clock, each player is timed. The amount of time is spelled out clearly and varies according to the situation as it should.

 

I don't see it as vague nor confusing. It's very clear to me.

 

You sound like you feel very strongly both ways.

 

Would you please make up my mind. :lol:

 

TIA :hi:

[nsxguy]

So what you want is for everyone to play at your pace.

 

That is a terrible Committee practice to penalize the whole group. But that's what some people here in this thread want. Do you agree with that practice? That sounds like terrible judgement and application and I dare say, that would drive more people away from golf than any stroke and distance or divot hole.

 

As a fast player, yes I WANT everyone to play at my pace.

 

The difference is a slow player FORCES everyone to play at their pace.

 

Play at a reasonable pace and I won't get aggravated at you to play up to my pace. But if you play at a normal pace a slow player FROCES you to play at their pace. Along with everyone behind them likely for the rest of the day.

And whose opinions differ? The rule is clear. If a group is put on the clock, each player is timed. The amount of time is spelled out clearly and varies according to the situation as it should.

 

I don't see it as vague nor confusing. It's very clear to me.

 

Lets assume I'm an official at your event.

 

Define "off the pace" to me.

 

You're the one who mentioned a "normal pace" (even if for your own rounds and not the Tour). What is a normal pace ?

 

And if there's full hole open in front of me am I "off pace" ? Am I "out of position" ? Am I slow ?

[WILLSON]

If all the pros were as boring and slow as Cantlay I would quit watching golf. These slow players with zero personalities obviously aren’t smart enough to realize their style of play is detrimental to the future of the game. Need more trigger pullers like DJ.

 

[glapalme]

Cantlay is slower than a turtle. I timed him on Sunday for a 5 foot putt, it took 1 min 10 secs. Dechambeau took nearly 90 secs on a 20 footer. PGA tour needs time limits, the game is way too slow. They should get rid of ball alignment and walking around the ball. Just line it up from behind and putt it.

They should also allow rangefinders in tournaments, this would help players to be quicker and ready for their shots. Seeing someone take 14 practice swings before hitting the ball is a time waster, this should also be regulated. As for penalties, taking away Fed points for a first offence is fine, but after that, they should dock strokes off the card.

[Hutstar]

I like a variation of the Fedex cup points idea. Every player who takes over 4 hours loses 1% of their Fedex cup points for that event for every minute over per round. Firstly it would consistently penalize the slowest players the most. Yes their playing partners playing fast would be assessed the same penalty and rightly be pissed, as would every player behind them who would also be assessed a similar penalty. Then the locker room would do it's job, peer pressure would be huge. Additionally keeping a weekly speed measure would be terrible for the player's brand - being number #1 for Fedex cup slow play penalties wouldn't be a good look.

[jasonfish11]

So what you want is for everyone to play at your pace.

 

That is a terrible Committee practice to penalize the whole group. But that's what some people here in this thread want. Do you agree with that practice? That sounds like terrible judgement and application and I dare say, that would drive more people away from golf than any stroke and distance or divot hole.

 

As a fast player, yes I WANT everyone to play at my pace.

 

The difference is a slow player FORCES everyone to play at their pace.

 

Play at a reasonable pace and I won't get aggravated at you to play up to my pace. But if you play at a normal pace a slow player FROCES you to play at their pace. Along with everyone behind them likely for the rest of the day.

And whose opinions differ? The rule is clear. If a group is put on the clock, each player is timed. The amount of time is spelled out clearly and varies according to the situation as it should.

 

I don't see it as vague nor confusing. It's very clear to me.

 

Lets assume I'm an official at your event.

 

Define "off the pace" to me.

 

You're the one who mentioned a "normal pace" (even if for your own rounds and not the Tour). What is a normal pace ?

 

And if there's full hole open in front of me am I "off pace" ? Am I "out of position" ? Am I slow ?

 

So thanks for proving my point that the rule is vague and not well defined. I am not sure if that was your intent, but I'm glad you agree with me.

 

If I'm writing the rule it would be like this.

 

"Standard pace of play is expected to be 4 hours and 30 minutes. After 3 holes of competition everyone will be compared to this pace based on the time they get to the tee box against their start time. If you are off this pace, regardless of circumstance, you will be timed."

 

Then you can follow the current timing rules. The other change I would make there is no "warning" once you get put on the clock. Being told you are off the pace is your warning.

 

Example

On hole 5 you should be on the tee box in less than 60 min from your tee time. If you get to the tee box of hole 5 and it's currently 3:01 and your tee time was 2:00. You are off the pace and now getting timed. Even if you are waiting on the group in front (in theory they are also being timed because they are off the pace). Once it is safe for you to hit your shot then your 40 seconds starts. If you are not waiting on the group in front then the 1st person has 60 seconds for their shot.

[OutBackHack]

This post has nothing to do with slow play but just because you guys are talking about this Cantlay fellow I thought I'd share an experience with ya. It's not a feel good story, quite the opposite actually. So I moved to long beach CA for a high class new job years ago (I've since gotten the hell out of cali) and found a great house to rent on pacific ave in bixby knolls. Cool neighborhood if a bit "old money" as they say. You're basically living in mahogany mansions a mile from compton where they, well, let's just say they don't. California is weird like that I learned. Anyway, the people we rented from were some old couple, both divorced I think like 3 or 4 times each, and they're members of this country club called Virginia. It was literally on my road, fancy shmancy. I was able to work a deal where they'd let me play a couple times at their club for being a good renter. So the day comes where I cash that check and tell them my dad from CT is coming into town and I'd love to take him to play on your fancy course. They oblige, decent people. No they were super creepy to be honest but alas that's neither here nor there. These decent people pick us up in their giant mercedes that was like I swear 20 feet long, I think it needed a commercial license, and drove us up to the clubhouse. They asked if we knew this guy named Paul Goydos or Patrick Cantlay. I knew Goydos - he was that turtle dude that played on tour and had a couple streaks, well I guess this was his "club". Cool I think. I never heard of Cantlay but they told me he was some young phenom that was also a member and learned to play here. Whatever, shut up, let's just play golf I don't need a history lesson of Virginia Country Club. Anyway, here's the weirdest thing - and this is coming from a normal guy who played public courses my whole life - we pull up to the front and a valet comes and parks the car. He's a black dude dressed like it's 1850 on a georgia plantation. We go inside and I look around, and not trying to be judgy, but I swear to god it's like this big dining area and every single person working there is black and every single patron is some 80 year old white dude with a cigar in his mouth and a really lame blazer with gold buttons. The hostess is of course also black and I s*** you not she does the southern thing where she's like "suh (you know, "sir" but with the super racially southern accent thing) "suh, can I take yo hat suh?" "Pleasha to have ya suh" "Best o luck on yo golf game suh". I couldn't believe it, I felt like I just went into a time machine. Honestly the whole thing made me sick and really weirded out, I was like, is this what country clubs are all about? Is this like a reenactment thing? My dad was like what...the...f***.....Anyway, bottom line is Cantlay comes from these people, so I dunno, take that as you will. Just sharing a day in my life.

 

Longest paragraph in forum history.

 

Congrats.

[bladehunter]

Cantlay is slower than a turtle. I timed him on Sunday for a 5 foot putt, it took 1 min 10 secs. Dechambeau took nearly 90 secs on a 20 footer. PGA tour needs time limits, the game is way too slow. They should get rid of ball alignment and walking around the ball. Just line it up from behind and putt it.

They should also allow rangefinders in tournaments, this would help players to be quicker and ready for their shots. Seeing someone take 14 practice swings before hitting the ball is a time waster, this should also be regulated. As for penalties, taking away Fed points for a first offence is fine, but after that, they should dock strokes off the card.

 

Lol. But I bet your All for putting with the pin in ?

 

Tiger has used a line on his ball and read putts from all sides forever. So has phil. Never heard either described as slow.

 

Line on the ball and walking around a putt isn’t what slow playeRs do. It’s the talking and not being ready when it’s their turn. That and some people just walk and think slow. I get behind them driving and in the store everyday. Rediculous. But it isn’t really fixable. Not if you want to see lowest scores.

[jasonfish11]

For casual golf, if slow players didn't FORCE everyone else to play slow. I wouldn't care.

 

Example if you want to play slowly (less than 4.5 hours), and knowing this you always let someone play through when they catch up. No hesitation, as soon as the group behind has to wait you wave them up. Even if this means doing it 14 times throughout the round, and it takes you 11 hours to complete your round.

 

That would not bother me at all and I would never have a complaint about a slow player.

 

The issue is this does NOT happen and slow players essentially FORCE me to play at their pace. Either that or I can commit assault and just hit into them.

[chigolfer1]

Roadking2003:

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. How long you stand over the ball is irrelevant.

 

There are two issues here;

 

1. The rules: Is Cantlay violating a rule? Nobody has presented evidence that he is violating a rule or getting special treatment.

 

2. The product: The PGA Tour sells an entertainment product. That's their business. So until they start losing revenue due to slow play, why would they change anything? I don't like watching Cantlay take so much time to hit, but that has not stopped me from watching golf on TV. I also don't like watching the pros make 2 foot putts but that hasn't changed my viewing habit. From a TV viewer standpoint, slow play is not an issue at all. With good TV camera management the viewers don't have to experience the slow play much at all.

 

 

Chigolfer:

 

#2 is beside the point. There are rules in place already against slow play. I think you know it's pretty much impossible for anyone not on a rules committee at a tourney to present "evidence" of slow play. It's not like there are numbers we can pull from a database. But, when you stand over the ball that long, it is worth discussing if this guy is indeed violating the slow play rules because he'd have to be really fast elsewhere. There are several factors leading to slow play with one of them being how long you stand over the ball so it's not really irrelevant. If your point is that you can't assume Cantlay is violating the rule just because he stands over the ball that long, then fair enough. But I'm sure you'd admit that it's hard to believe that one person has been penalized materially in forever and that he was really the only one ever to violate the rule.

[nsxguy]

 

As a fast player, yes I WANT everyone to play at my pace.

 

The difference is a slow player FORCES everyone to play at their pace.

 

Play at a reasonable pace and I won't get aggravated at you to play up to my pace. But if you play at a normal pace a slow player FROCES you to play at their pace. Along with everyone behind them likely for the rest of the day.

 

And whose opinions differ? The rule is clear. If a group is put on the clock, each player is timed. The amount of time is spelled out clearly and varies according to the situation as it should.

 

I don't see it as vague nor confusing. It's very clear to me.

 

Lets assume I'm an official at your event.

 

Define "off the pace" to me.

 

You're the one who mentioned a "normal pace" (even if for your own rounds and not the Tour). What is a normal pace ?

 

And if there's full hole open in front of me am I "off pace" ? Am I "out of position" ? Am I slow ?

 

So thanks for proving my point that the rule is vague and not well defined. I am not sure if that was your intent, but I'm glad you agree with me.

 

If I'm writing the rule it would be like this.

 

"Standard pace of play is expected to be 4 hours and 30 minutes. After 3 holes of competition everyone will be compared to this pace based on the time they get to the tee box against their start time. If you are off this pace, regardless of circumstance, you will be timed."

 

Then you can follow the current timing rules. The other change I would make there is no "warning" once you get put on the clock. Being told you are off the pace is your warning.

 

Example

On hole 5 you should be on the tee box in less than 60 min from your tee time. If you get to the tee box of hole 5 and it's currently 3:01 and your tee time was 2:00. You are off the pace and now getting timed. Even if you are waiting on the group in front (in theory they are also being timed because they are off the pace). Once it is safe for you to hit your shot then your 40 seconds starts. If you are not waiting on the group in front then the 1st person has 60 seconds for their shot.

 

Since you proposed your rules I'm guessing that would be for the Tour.

 

So, for the TOUR,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, I really don't see a problem. Sans a weather delay or some sort of other rather unusual occurrence, pretty much any tournament I watch finishes on time. Usually 6 PM (East Coast) on the dot. Sometimes 5-10 minutes early and sometimes 5-10 minutes late. Not a big deal.

 

As for Cantlay, I can't imagine he stands over the ball for 40 seconds as that first video showed but if he does it'll be taken care of sooner or later. Yes, I get that it's boring.

 

A poster had a good(?) idea though. If he does routinely do this, just "replay" his shot from tape when they get the chance. That'll be problematic if he's in the final group contending but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Frankly, I don't see why viewers are so incensed over the whole thing.

 

 

Now, as for US amateurs playing and you playing through,,,,,,,,,,,,, not turning this one into yet another (amateur) slow play rant/thread.

 

You're (all) welcome !!! :hi:

[Vindog]

And whose opinions differ? The rule is clear. If a group is put on the clock, each player is timed. The amount of time is spelled out clearly and varies according to the situation as it should.

 

I don't see it as vague nor confusing. It's very clear to me.

 

Lets assume I'm an official at your event.

 

Define "off the pace" to me.

 

A hole behind. At my fictitious event it would be a par 4 or 5.

 

Should a group be put on the clock because of rulings or procedures like finding balls, having process under stroke and distance or determining nearest point of relief? Maybe, I don’t know. Even “fast” players can be bogged down by those things.

[jasonfish11]

The reason it frustrates me is because our casual rounds take 5+ hours. If I were playing golf in 3.5-4.5 hours and seeing the pro's stand over the ball for 5 min, I wouldn't care. But seeing this on the pro level along with the lack of consequences makes it seem like golfing society is "okaying" the behavior.

[jasonfish11]

And whose opinions differ? The rule is clear. If a group is put on the clock, each player is timed. The amount of time is spelled out clearly and varies according to the situation as it should.

 

I don't see it as vague nor confusing. It's very clear to me.

 

Lets assume I'm an official at your event.

 

Define "off the pace" to me.

 

A hole behind. At my fictitious event it would be a par 4 or 5.

 

Should a group be put on the clock because of rulings or procedures like finding balls, having process under stroke and distance or determining nearest point of relief? Maybe, I don't know. Even "fast" players can be bogged down by those things.

 

So a if I'm walking up to the tee box of hole #3 (a 300 yard par 4 that everyone is going for) and the group in front is walking off the tee box of #4, I get put on the clock. I'm essentially 1 full shot behind the prior group. But if I'm walking up to the tee box of hole 15 (a 685 yard 3 shot par 5) and the group in front is walking off the green, I'm fine? In this case I'm 3 full shots behind the other group.

[bscinstnct]

The reason everyone is so incensed (at least people like me) is because our casual rounds take 5+ hours. If we were playing golf in 3.5-4.5 hours and seeing the pro's stand over the ball for 5 min, I doubt we'd care. But seeing this on the pro level along with the lack of consequences makes it seem like golfing society is "okaying" the behavior.

 

Unfortunately, it's the new normal for many of these guys and they will keep getting slower. This piece is actually funny considering the morbidity of the subject.

 

 

https://www.foxsport...enalties-041016

 

It’s not your imagination; Jordan Spieth is playing insanely slow at the Masters

 

 

There are glaciers that move with more pace. People who were stuck behind student drivers earlier in the day think Spieth is too deliberate. He’s like Joey from Friends and his game is like ketchup in a glass Heinz bottle teetering on the fifth floor of a building.

 

 

At first, it’s the sort of thing you might not notice, like when someone’s a loud chewer. But, much like with that chewer, the instant you find out you can’t notice anything else. Spieth has always been a deliberate player (he received a penalty earlier this year in Abu Dhabi) but he’s taken it to a new level at Augusta, as if the increased difficulty (both in the course and the conditions) and pressure have paralyzed his decision making. And paralyze it it has.

Spieth never has a shot that can’t be discussed three more times with his caddie. He goes back-and-forth off shots like a nervous bungee jumper. Every chip is an exercise in topography, as he walks the 80-or-so yards from his ball to the pin to evaluate every undulation. When he stands over a putt, he’s as indecisive as me at Popeye’s when I’m deciding between a three-piece and a five-piece.

 

 

his one’s serious: I was at a wedding Saturday (yes, I’ve still decided to remain friends with the couple who had their wedding on moving day at The Masters) so I DVR’d the third round and watched when I got home. Occasionally, I would use the lowest fast-foward setting, the one where you can still tell what’s happening, just at a much quicker pace. And even then, with the speed of events going twice as fast as they did in real life, Spieth’s pace was maddening. He’s so mentally strong and sure of himself (which is what made his meltdown on Nos. 17 and 18 on Saturday so bizarre), but in the middle of a round that certainty comes from his plodding, methodical process.

Here’s an example of his, uh, let’s call it meticulous, nature from the end of his round on Saturday. On the 16th green, Spieth looked at a six-footer with a slight left-to-right break for 99 seconds. On the 17th tee, he thought about his tee shot for 40 seconds. His next shot, from the pine needles, took about two minutes to hit. After he somehow punched out cleanly, Spieth took another 90 seconds for his chip into the green, a routine which included seven waggles. His putt was downright speedy, taking just 68 seconds (though he was also lining up the putt as playing partner Rory McIlroy was reading his). An approach on 18 took 2:10 (though it was also on the straw). His chip up to the green took the same amount of time. And it took him 1:55 to line up his par putt on 18, which he missed, leading to a bogey putt took at least a minute. Spieth was +3 on those two holes.

 

The rest of the holes, even when he wasn’t figuring out how to maneuver through trees and pine needles (which obviously affected his time on those two shots), were more of the same. He was generally taking well over a minute to hit the ball from the fairway. As a comparison: Rory’s approach on 18 took 30 seconds from the time he pulled a club to the time he hit the ball. When Spieth was playing with the odd (in golf terms) Bryson DeChambeau on Thursday and Friday, it was like watching polar opposites. The amateur would get up to the ball, no waggle and hit. Meanwhile, Spieth was about 5 percent of the way through his routine.

[Vindog]

No you’re pretty much behind in both cases.

[jasonfish11]

No you're pretty much behind in both cases.

 

Not according to the way you explained the rule to me for your tournament.

 

The 2nd one I'm not a hole behind, so therefore I'm not off the pace.

[Vindog]

What did I say that was contradictory? A par 4 or 5 I thought I said., no?

[CasualLie]

Fact check: Sandman was playing Virgina CC on October 31; he totally fell for their Halloween Theme. Anyway...

 

So about the post where PGA Tour has a timing for each hole averaged at 14 minutes. Instead of a shot clock, have a hole clock - for the group. Dispense with the strict order of play when a player wants more time to ponder their shot or search for their lost ball. Bottom line, everyone holes out in 14 minutes on a par 4 or you are all penalized a shot. A few tour players can't get along well enough to pull this off? Not a lot to ask from a bunch of millionaires. This gives players with different styles to not be pressured by a shot clock. If you want more time, walk faster. Play quick to the green and take forever on putts, or vice-versa. 14 minute average, a little more/less for par 5s and par 3s and at least we get the round down to 4:15.

 

Mix in carts and rangefinders and get the average down to 13 and we have sub 4 hour rounds. The Tour can't sell that and make money???

 

I can even see having a "carryover" time if you played the hole under average. Group makes a bunch of birdies 12 minutes, great, you can have 16 minutes for the next hole. You can bank some time as long as your group average is under 14 min per hole, but you are not allowed to go into deficit and play faster later. If at any time you fall below the average, stroke penalty for the group.

 

Put this in place and after all the bellyaching is done, in an actual round no one gets penalized. These players can collectively do it, just like now they are collectively dragging their a**es. You wouldn't even see the clock on the broadcast. It just becomes the norm.

[JimK]

And unfortunately this crap translates to recreational golf because your tour wannabes want to do the same garbage as tour guys do.

 

I don't see that much. Not that I'm saying people aren't slow here but I just don't see the tour sauce translating at any of the courses I play.

 

That is, unless the tour players are 2 fisting beers from the cooler, hitting on the cart girl, checking their phones, not playing decent cart golf, etc...

 

Those things all contribute to slow recreational play, but an even bigger factor is golfers who refuse to play from the proper tees. I wish I had a dollar for every group I've been stuck behind that played from the blues when none of them could drive the ball 200 yds, and when they did the ball usually ended up in the woods. Playing from the wrong tees probably adds ten to fifteen more shots per round, which translates to at least an extra hour. The players in my regular foursome are all 70 yrs old or close to it. We usually play either the whites or the senior tees depending on the yardage and if there's nobody in front of us we'll take no more than 3 1/2 hours to finish a round. Tee it forward!

[Roadking2003]

And whose opinions differ? The rule is clear. If a group is put on the clock, each player is timed. The amount of time is spelled out clearly and varies according to the situation as it should.

 

I don't see it as vague nor confusing. It's very clear to me.

 

Lets assume I'm an official at your event.

 

Define "off the pace" to me.

 

On the PGA Tour, their pace of play policy starts with an assumption that the player will abide by what's called time par, which is a course-by-course determination of how long a twosome or threesome should take to play each of 18 holes and a full round in total. The enforcement of the pace of play policy starts when a group is determined to be "out of position." That happens to the first group of a round -- on any starting tee box -- when they exceed the allotted time par. Subsequent groups are considered out of position when they exceed that allotted time per hole or reach an open par 3, or they reach an open par 4 or par 5 and haven't yet played a shot.

[Roadking2003]

For casual golf, if slow players didn't FORCE everyone else to play slow. I wouldn't care.

 

Example if you want to play slowly (less than 4.5 hours), and knowing this you always let someone play through when they catch up. No hesitation, as soon as the group behind has to wait you wave them up. Even if this means doing it 14 times throughout the round, and it takes you 11 hours to complete your round.

 

That would not bother me at all and I would never have a complaint about a slow player.

 

The issue is this does NOT happen and slow players essentially FORCE me to play at their pace. Either that or I can commit assault and just hit into them.

 

So, somebody playing faster than you should have the same complaint. YOU are forcing them to play at YOUR pace.

[Roadking2003]

Roadking2003:

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. How long you stand over the ball is irrelevant.

 

There are two issues here;

 

1. The rules: Is Cantlay violating a rule? Nobody has presented evidence that he is violating a rule or getting special treatment.

 

2. The product: The PGA Tour sells an entertainment product. That's their business. So until they start losing revenue due to slow play, why would they change anything? I don't like watching Cantlay take so much time to hit, but that has not stopped me from watching golf on TV. I also don't like watching the pros make 2 foot putts but that hasn't changed my viewing habit. From a TV viewer standpoint, slow play is not an issue at all. With good TV camera management the viewers don't have to experience the slow play much at all.

 

 

Chigolfer:

 

#2 is beside the point. There are rules in place already against slow play. I think you know it's pretty much impossible for anyone not on a rules committee at a tourney to present "evidence" of slow play. It's not like there are numbers we can pull from a database. But, when you stand over the ball that long, it is worth discussing if this guy is indeed violating the slow play rules because he'd have to be really fast elsewhere. There are several factors leading to slow play with one of them being how long you stand over the ball so it's not really irrelevant. If your point is that you can't assume Cantlay is violating the rule just because he stands over the ball that long, then fair enough. But I'm sure you'd admit that it's hard to believe that one person has been penalized materially in forever and that he was really the only one ever to violate the rule.

 

#2 is not beside the point. If there is no problem, why even discuss slow play? There is only a problem if it impacts the Tour's revenue.

 

If a company's product is being bought and they are meeting revenue goals, why change? Are you saying faster play would increase PGA Tour revenue? I doubt it.

 

Yes, there are several factors leading to slow play. But they have about 15 minutes to play a hole. So if they take 20 seconds longer to play every shot on a par four, that's an extra 80 seconds (less if their fourth shot is really short because even Cantlay doesn't take 40 seconds to make a 3 inch putt).

 

So if they waste 80 seconds per hole, they can make it up by in areas other than standing over the ball.

[Roadking2003]

The reason it frustrates me is because our casual rounds take 5+ hours. If I were playing golf in 3.5-4.5 hours and seeing the pro's stand over the ball for 5 min, I wouldn't care. But seeing this on the pro level along with the lack of consequences makes it seem like golfing society is "okaying" the behavior.

 

I seriously doubt that golfers taking 5+ hours to play a casual round are doing so because they watch golf on TV. And I doubt that speeding up the pros would fix your 5+ hour problem.

[Roadking2003]

Frankly, I don't see why viewers are so incensed over the whole thing.

 

Exactly! What is the problem that the OP is trying to solve? Maybe a lot of posters have solutions looking for a problem.

[chigolfer1]

Roadking2003:

 

That's exactly what I'm saying. How long you stand over the ball is irrelevant.

 

There are two issues here;

 

1. The rules: Is Cantlay violating a rule? Nobody has presented evidence that he is violating a rule or getting special treatment.

 

2. The product: The PGA Tour sells an entertainment product. That's their business. So until they start losing revenue due to slow play, why would they change anything? I don't like watching Cantlay take so much time to hit, but that has not stopped me from watching golf on TV. I also don't like watching the pros make 2 foot putts but that hasn't changed my viewing habit. From a TV viewer standpoint, slow play is not an issue at all. With good TV camera management the viewers don't have to experience the slow play much at all.

 

 

Chigolfer:

 

#2 is beside the point. There are rules in place already against slow play. I think you know it's pretty much impossible for anyone not on a rules committee at a tourney to present "evidence" of slow play. It's not like there are numbers we can pull from a database. But, when you stand over the ball that long, it is worth discussing if this guy is indeed violating the slow play rules because he'd have to be really fast elsewhere. There are several factors leading to slow play with one of them being how long you stand over the ball so it's not really irrelevant. If your point is that you can't assume Cantlay is violating the rule just because he stands over the ball that long, then fair enough. But I'm sure you'd admit that it's hard to believe that one person has been penalized materially in forever and that he was really the only one ever to violate the rule.

 

#2 is not beside the point. If there is no problem, why even discuss slow play? There is only a problem if it impacts the Tour's revenue.

 

If a company's product is being bought and they are meeting revenue goals, why change? Are you saying faster play would increase PGA Tour revenue? I doubt it.

 

Yes, there are several factors leading to slow play. But they have about 15 minutes to play a hole. So if they take 20 seconds longer to play every shot on a par four, that's an extra 80 seconds (less if their fourth shot is really short because even Cantlay doesn't take 40 seconds to make a 3 inch putt).

 

So if they waste 80 seconds per hole, they can make it up by in areas other than standing over the ball.

 

I didn't realize we were debating whether they should enforce the rule because it's impacting a business's revenue or not. That's a new angle that you're introducing. The thread title is simply, "how is Cantlay not being penalized." I assume you're not disputing that slow play in general is a serious problem in golf whether it be professional or recreational? Or are you disputing that?

 

I've already agreed several times that they can make it up in other ways. Heck, I'm one of the people that brought up this concept. No one seems to really know if Cantlay is doing this or not but it's obviously a possibility.

[Shilgy]

Are many off you suggesting the faster tour players have to play through lol?

 

I have read suggestions that they just play in 4 hours or lose FedEx points... Must be on hole 5 tee in a certain time or be docked.... Play any par 4 in 14 minutes.

So I so are they supposed to play through? If the group in front of you plays in 4:20 how do you play in 4 flat? Same question about being on the 5th tee box and 14 minute rule.

Imo way too many posts are forgetting what they are playing for. And I do not mean the million dollars. They are playing for their livelihood. How would many of you like to be told you have a half hour to get a project done that takes everyone else 45 minutes? If you don't comply you lose your pay?

Have you ever noticed club tournament play takes longer than everyday play? It's not from posers taking longer. It takes longer when every shot matters and your not raking your third putt back at you or saying "give me a double" on the bad holes.

Also, please remember they are playing a different course every week. Not the course you know like the back of your hand. So they may have to discuss with their caddy many shots that you think look simple.

 

Rant over.

[Golfer4Life]

Dude, they play the same courses every season, with maybe a very few exceptions.

[jasonfish11]

Are many off you suggesting the faster tour players have to play through lol?

 

I have read suggestions that they just play in 4 hours or lose FedEx points... Must be on hole 5 tee in a certain time or be docked.... Play any par 4 in 14 minutes.

So I so are they supposed to play through? If the group in front of you plays in 4:20 how do you play in 4 flat? Same question about being on the 5th tee box and 14 minute rule.

Imo way too many posts are forgetting what they are playing for. And I do not mean the million dollars. They are playing for their livelihood. How would many of you like to be told you have a half hour to get a project done that takes everyone else 45 minutes? If you don't comply you lose your pay?

Have you ever noticed club tournament play takes longer than everyday play? It's not from posers taking longer. It takes longer when every shot matters and your not raking your third putt back at you or saying "give me a double" on the bad holes.

Also, please remember they are playing a different course every week. Not the course you know like the back of your hand. So they may have to discuss with their caddy many shots that you think look simple.

 

Rant over.

 

My post above answers all your questions...

 

If I'm writing the rule it would be like this.

 

"Standard pace of play is expected to be 4 hours and 30 minutes. After 3 holes of competition everyone will be compared to this pace based on the time they get to the tee box against their start time. If you are off this pace, regardless of circumstance, you will be timed."

 

Then you can follow the current timing rules. The other change I would make there is no "warning" once you get put on the clock. Being told you are off the pace is your warning.

 

Example

On hole 5 you should be on the tee box in less than 60 min from your tee time. If you get to the tee box of hole 5 and it's currently 3:01 and your tee time was 2:00. You are off the pace and now getting timed. Even if you are waiting on the group in front (in theory they are also being timed because they are off the pace). Once it is safe for you to hit your shot then your 40 seconds starts. If you are not waiting on the group in front then the 1st person has 60 seconds for their shot.