Jump to content

Chamblee: Every player should leave flagstick in


Recommended Posts

  • Replies 212
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

I've written extensively on the subject. Not sure what pace of play has to do with it.

 

One of the concerns was playing partners may be inconvenienced but Dustin Johnson said there was no issue.

“It was definitely weird, well not weird, but different looking watching somewhat putt with the flag in but it actually worked out where it wasn’t a big deal today,” Johnson said.

“It didn’t really slow us down or anything. There were a couple of times where if we were close and the flag was out I would just putt it because I knew he would put in back in.”

https://www.pgatour.com/news/2019/01/03/bryson-dechambeau-flag-in-putting-sentry-tournament-of-champions-rules-of-golf-new-2019.html

 

But from a physics standpoint, he's most likely referring to Dave Pelz's research. I add my own conclusions from an articulate post from another golf forum:

 

Pelz Research:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1709628-putting-with-flag-in-merged/page__st__90#entry18220936

 

My conclusions:

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1709628-putting-with-flag-in-merged/page__st__90#entry18222946

 

Poster identified six areas of potential benefit for putting with the stick in. The first three have justification rooted in physics. Personally, I believe #1 is most important, followed closely by #3. I am not a physicist, but know enough about each topic to expound a little bit if you'd like.

https://thesandtrap....e-flagstick-in/

  • The flagstick slows the ball by a greater factor than it decreases the time the ball spends suspended over the hole.
  • Unless you have exceptional distance control, effective capture speed can remain about the same.
  • Hitting the ball more firmly allows for a larger margin of error. It also reduces the tendency of a slow-moving putt to "wobble" or be moved off-line due to imperfections.
  • Players, particularly poorer putters, leave a lot of putts from 6' to 15' short. This change would let them be more aggressive.
  • The situations where the flagstick should be removed (it leans too much, it's moving around a lot in the wind) almost never occur.
  • The flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this. I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point. That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this. I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point. That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.

 

Interesting point.

 

So you're really willing to play worse to avoid a perceived annoyance? Dang, dude.

 

The default for a pin is in... I'd say those who want it out are being annoying :D

Link to post
Share on other sites

The last point you have crossed out above--the flagstick offers an aid - it gives the player yet another point or two at which to aim--would be my #1 motivating factor in doing this. I find that on the practice putting green my make % is significantly higher on shorter putts when I'm too lazy to take the flag out, and I attribute that largely to having a better more precise aiming point. That said I have no intention of being the annoying guy in the group who always asks for the flag to be put back in, but if the group I was playing in wanted to leave it in all the time I'm more than OK with that.

 

Interesting point.

 

So you're really willing to play worse to avoid a perceived annoyance? Dang, dude.

 

The default for a pin is in... I'd say those who want it out are being annoying :D

I also play better when I go through a 45-60 second pre-shot routine and putt better when I walk around every putt to take it in from all angles. Needless to say, unless it's a competitive round with something material on the line, I'm not doing those either or else I'm not going to get invited out to play very often. I agree with you that the default for a pin should be in, but something tells me others are unlikely to see it that way (I haven't yet played in 2019 so not yet sure). But just like I'm easy going with respect to what tees we play off, I'm planning to be easy going with respect to the pin being in/out make it as quick and easy for everyone involved.

 

That said, I hope everyone wants to leave it in :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

chamblee specifically referenced pelz's research....

 

i can't see how having the flagstick in would actually help in regards to the ball hitting the flagstick on anything other than lag putts hit way too hard or fast downhill putts hit too hard. its hard to think there would be a single putt inside 15' on tour that is holed this year that would've not gone in if the pin were removed.

 

chamblee can talk all he wants about how the players not leaving the pin in are at a disadvantage, but i'd love for him to have pointed to a single putt that would not have been holed that day by bryson if the pin were removed.

Ping G400 LST 10 w/ Hzrdus Black 6.0 75g
TM M2 3HL w/ Rogue Black 70 S
Cobra F8 19*
J15CB w/ Modus 120X 4-P
Cleveland RTX3 CB 50 54 58
TM Spider Tour Black w/ T-sightline 36" 

Link to post
Share on other sites

It will be interesting to see what Brooke Henderson on the LPGA tour does this season. She's had her caddy tend the flag from distances and situations that I'd never seen anyone else choose to.

 

I think they mentioned something about a depth perception advantage

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

 

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

 

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me to the contrary, and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

 

As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.

 

The pin thing is like that.

 

Science. LOL

[size=2]PING G400 Max - Atmos Tour Spec Red - S
TaylorMade Sim Max Titanium 15* 3-WOOD - Diamana - S
Titleist 818 H2 19*. Tensei black 90g - S
Titleist 818 H1 21* Atmos Tour Spec Blue - S
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Cleveland RTX-4 mid-bounce 46* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 mid-bounce 50* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 full-sole 56* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 low-bounce 60* DG s-400
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 76.5*)[/size]

Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm looking forward to doing some of my own testing on this with my Perfect Putter, but I am firmly in the camp of leaving the flagstick in as the default state based on all of the evidence we have to date. The key will be knowing when it's advantageous to take it out, but I think those situations will be rare.

TaylorMade SIM 8.0, Diamana Kai'li 60S, 44.75"
TaylorMade M5 Rocket 3, Tensei Blue X, 42.5"
TaylorMade SIM Max Rescue 19, Fujikura Atmos Blue Tour Spec 8X Hybrid
TaylorMade P770 (2020) 3-4, KBS $-Taper S
TaylorMade P7MC 5-6, KBS $-Taper S

TaylorMade P7MB 7-PW, KBS $-Taper S
TaylorMade MG2 52, Hi-Toe 58 - DG S400 Tour Issue
TaylorMade Milled Juno proto, 40.5" armlock
TaylorMade TP5x (2017)
jll62's WITB

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

 

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

 

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

 

As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.

 

The pin thing is like that.

 

Science. LOL

 

I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Played 18 holes this morning with SWMBO. We both left the flag in. It definitely speeds play up when all the players in a group are leaving it in, especially if your group plays ready golf on the greens as we did this morning. I putted a few times while she was still getting to her ball or raking a bunker. Granted, this is very casual play, but I could see it speeding things up in recreational golf.

  • Cobra Max 10.5*
  • The Perfect Club 21
  • Callaway BB 7h
  • PING Eye 2+ 7-SW
  • Odyssey VLine
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

 

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

 

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

 

As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.

 

The pin thing is like that.

 

Science. LOL

 

I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.

 

Somebody told me he did his tests with both types of flags? Or did subsequent tests with them? If he did, and came to the conclusion that you should still leave the flag in with the heavy flags, then he's wrong. LOL ;-)

[size=2]PING G400 Max - Atmos Tour Spec Red - S
TaylorMade Sim Max Titanium 15* 3-WOOD - Diamana - S
Titleist 818 H2 19*. Tensei black 90g - S
Titleist 818 H1 21* Atmos Tour Spec Blue - S
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Cleveland RTX-4 mid-bounce 46* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 mid-bounce 50* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 full-sole 56* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 low-bounce 60* DG s-400
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 76.5*)[/size]

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

 

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

 

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

 

As an analogy, my buddy and I used to play basketball in the street on one of those "roll out" basket/rim things. Over the years, the backboard got looser and looser until it was just this amazingly receptive "thing" that you could toss the ball up to and make shots. It was nothing like a real backboard, and made shots around the rim so, so easy.

 

The pin thing is like that.

 

Science. LOL

 

I agree with you on the "heavy stick" but I'm curious... are you talking about the Pelz research I linked above? If so, what issues do you take with it? I linked to the methodology. The testing was done with thousands of shots with numerous variables. I would think thousands of trials would not be deemed anecdotal... even if not statistically significant or peer-reviewed.

 

Somebody told me he did his tests with both types of flags? Or did subsequent tests with them? If he did, and came to the conclusion that you should still leave the flag in with the heavy flags, then he's wrong. LOL ;-)

 

I can't confirm the flagsticks he used, but I would be highly doubtful he came to his conclusions using the wide metal ones. Anyone have him on speed dial?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The benefit of the flag in is hard to see with the naked eye.

 

Of course you aren't going to see it on every putt made with the stick in.

 

Where it will have aided is if it deadened a putt that would've lipped out (ie, was traveling too fast to be captured into the hole by gravity).

 

Here is an image I created for the other thread that shows how the stick adds effective capture width to the hole as the speed of the putt (when it reaches the hole) increases.

 

So yeah, duh, if you die the ball in the hole every time, you won't see a difference. But players don't do that every time. And, additionally, being able to hit the ball firmer at a now wider target should result in fewer putts missed short as players adjust. Win-win for flagstick in.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I like to sneak out by myself late in the day and play fast... you better believe I'm leaving the flag in :)

"We're not here for a long time... we're here for a good time." 

Mizuno JPX 900 Driver w/ Speeder Evo II 661 Stiff
Mizuno JPX 900 3W w/ Speeder Evo II 661 Stiff
Titleist AP3 3 - 5 w/ Project X LZ 6.0
Titleist AP2 6 - GW w/ Project X LZ 6.0

Callaway Jaws 54S & 58x w/ Project X LZ 6.0

Nike Method MOD 90
Titleist Lightweight Stand Bag

Clicgear 4.0

Link to post
Share on other sites

I might be wrong but at the moment I can't even imagine a time where many PGA Tour players will hole out with the flag in. I guess if someone starts winning doing it then they will follow suit.

[size=2]Titleist 910D3 8.5°
TaylorMade M3 15°
Titleist CB (710) 3-PW
Callaway Mack Daddy 4 Chrome 54° S Grind & 58° C Grind
Scotty Cameron Studio Select Newport 2
Titleist Pro V 1x[/size]
Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

 

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

 

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

 

 

What I find most interesting about this post is that you prefer to use YOUR anecdotal evidence ("that ball would easily have gone in") as opposed to data by someone who actually observed thousands of tests. I'd agree that different flagsticks will produce different results. But my opinion, based on physics alone, is that a heavier flagstick will have slightly less of an advantage as compared to the lighter sticks, but will still improve results over having the flagstick removed. But both of our opinions should be open to revision, I hear that two or three more new studies will be released in the new future, including fresh work by Pelz.

Link to post
Share on other sites

What’s the rule on putting your own flagstick in the hole

 

Some of the little ones on putting greens work great at absorbing the ball

 

Could you imagine a player carrying his own little flagstick and putting it in tomputt hahaa

I've seen these flagsticks that are thin at the bottom (first 8 - 12 inches) and generally thick with some wood outer layer or similar. So use these and start gluing them into the cup so the flag cannot be removed...that will speed up play!

For better or for worse, the flagstick is defined in the Equipment Rules, Part 8-1, as a "movable pole" (so it can't be glued in) "provided by the Committee" (so you can't bring your own).

Link to post
Share on other sites

If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the hole should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the damn thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the cup should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the damn thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.

 

The only thing I'm going to miss is the anger release of jamming the pin back into the cup after I dead pull a 2 footer.....

  • Cobra Max 10.5*
  • The Perfect Club 21
  • Callaway BB 7h
  • PING Eye 2+ 7-SW
  • Odyssey VLine
Link to post
Share on other sites

If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the cup should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the damn thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.

 

The only thing I'm going to miss is the anger release of jamming the pin back into the cup after I dead pull a 2 footer.....

 

same lololol

Link to post
Share on other sites

I have only one comment on the flag in thing:

 

I agree with DeChambeau 100% on the "heavy stick" thing. I have seen so, so many balls over the years that would have easily gone in be knocked out by the heavy sticks. The flimsy fiberglass(?) ones are perfect. No worries. They "absorb" the impact of the ball. But the heavy ones that they use on some courses that get very high winds? Not so much.

 

I flat out do not believe Pelz's research on this at all. Far too much anecdotal evidence for me and I bet I could design an experiment that would prove my hypothesis. I'm not going to, of course, I'm just not going to leave the heavy sticks in. LOL

 

 

What I find most interesting about this post is that you prefer to use YOUR anecdotal evidence ("that ball would easily have gone in") as opposed to data by someone who actually observed thousands of tests. I'd agree that different flagsticks will produce different results. But my opinion, based on physics alone, is that a heavier flagstick will have slightly less of an advantage as compared to the lighter sticks, but will still improve results over having the flagstick removed. But both of our opinions should be open to revision, I hear that two or three more new studies will be released in the new future, including fresh work by Pelz.

 

Yes, I'm hoping to see fresh work by someone on this.

 

My anecdotal evidence is so one-sidedly biased toward taking the heavy sticks OUT that it would take a very, very good study for me to believe otherwise. Certainly open to changing my mind though.

[size=2]PING G400 Max - Atmos Tour Spec Red - S
TaylorMade Sim Max Titanium 15* 3-WOOD - Diamana - S
Titleist 818 H2 19*. Tensei black 90g - S
Titleist 818 H1 21* Atmos Tour Spec Blue - S
Adams Idea Tech V4 5H 25* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Adams Idea Tech V4 6H 28* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Adams Idea Tech V4 7H 32* ProLaunch Blue 75 HY x-stiff
Titleist AP2 716 8i 37* KBS Tour S
Titleist AP2 716 9i 42* KBS Tour S
Cleveland RTX-4 mid-bounce 46* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 mid-bounce 50* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 full-sole 56* DG s-400
Cleveland RTX-4 low-bounce 60* DG s-400
Odyssey Works Versa Tank 1W (bent to 76.5*)[/size]

Link to post
Share on other sites

MGS is releasing their own study soon. Hopefully it's actually scientific and somewhat controlled. Most of their "best of X year" and "most wanted" tests are somewhat unreliable due to all the variables they still leave in testing.

SIM Max 9* | Ventus Black 6x

SIM Ti 19* | Fujikura Pro 2.0 TS 8x

Cobra Speedzone 18.5* | Accra FX 2.0 380M5 or Cobra Speedzone 4i | Modus 105x

i210 4-PW | X100 Tour Issue 1xSS

Ping Glide 3.0 50/12, 54/12, 58/10 | S400 Tour Issue

Cleveland SOFT Premier #4

ProV1x

 

Link to post
Share on other sites

All I can say is there is 1 hole at my home course that this rule can help. Last 70 yards is all uphill to a two-tiered green. At times during the summer if the hole is on the lower tier & you are on the upper tier.......you might be looking at a 70 yard second putt :russian_roulette:

Link to post
Share on other sites

All I can say is there is 1 hole at my home course that this rule can help. Last 70 yards is all uphill to a two-tiered green. At times during the summer if the hole is on the lower tier & you are on the upper tier.......you might be looking at a 70 yard second putt :russian_roulette:

I'm waiting for the rule change that allows you to lay the flagstick flat on the ground behind the hole, that's what will REALLY help those putts.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...