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Chamblee: Every player should leave flagstick in


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If leaving the flag stick in really catches on, the condition of the edges of the hole should be a lot better. Sometimes I think people try to toss the damn thing back in from the fringe with the amount of gashes and dents I repair while pulling my ball out.

Most of the time I just take the flag stick to the next tee box. Then javelin toss it back to the green.

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Sorry if this has been addressed already but are all flagsticks standard size and regulated by the rules of golf? I think I've seen thick flagsticks in windy areas.

Yes. They have to be cylindrical, no more than 0.75 inches diameter below 3" above the green surface, and can't have anything do dampen an impact. Go to the Equipment Rules on the USGA website.

 

Apologies Dave but what you quoted is the max, there is no stated min and no standard. In a different thread I brought up the topic of tapered pins and the impact that would make on the decision to leave the flag in or out.

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I'm of the opinion that if you find that this new rule is speeding up play for your group, then your group wasn't very fast to begin with.

 

I'm seeing people say things (in this thread and the other one) like "I was ready to putt and nobody had pulled the pin yet so I just went ahead and putted. It saved us time." But that's exactly the thing --- if you're in a threesome or foursome and you're ready to putt but nobody in the group has bothered to get the flag yet, then there is a real lack of awareness going on in that group. The only time you're "saving" is time that you were wasting to begin with. If everyone in the group has good awareness, there should never be a time when someone is ready to putt but waiting on someone to get the flag.

 

Twosomes are a different story and the new rule can definitely make a difference there.

 

So if this helps speed up slow groups, I'm all for it. But if this rule is helping you save time, there are bigger pace of play issues within that group going on.

 

Seems you're talking about my post as one of those?

 

We played as a foursome yesterday two of us are walkers and two of us were riders. Each rider took his own card.

 

Several times yesterday I reached the green before the first rider did, and well before the two walkers did.

 

Because of the stick rule I (and sometimes the other rider) was able to putt while the others were coming up to the green. This happened six or seven times â€" just for me. That has nothing to do with "lack of awareness" or slow play. Absolutely 100% nothing.

 

Therefore, by the time they arrived at the green my ball was already within tap-in range. I just saved us 15 to 45 seconds because I didn't have to wait for somebody to get there to take the pin out for me or walk up take the pin out and walk back.

 

A couple times, both of us riders were able to do the same thing as the walkers lagged slightly behind. And they are both very fast players. They just can't play as fast as a fast scratch golfer in a cart.

 

And this can happen with all walking groups or all riding groups. There are plenty of times when one person reaches the green before another and his ball is on the putting green relatively far away. Now, we can just putt. We don't need to wait to have the flag attended.

 

The rule, yesterday, probably shaved 2 to 3 minutes off of our round, just on the holes where I was able to putt early. They effectively played as a threesome on those holes instead of as a foursome, as I was already effectively done with the hole by the time they arrived to the green. I would have a 40 footer, But have already putted it to type in range.

 

Easy. Fast. Efficient.

 

We teed off at 8:00 on the nose and were on the patio settling up bets at 11:35. Two walkers. Two riders.

 

Edited to add: We all pretty much agreed on the first or second hole that we would all leave the pin in on our longer putts, but we would all take it out when we were within approximately 20 feet. That definitely helped things and made it not confusing.

 

Exactly, the agreement between players will make this work, but this will work only in friendly games, not in tournaments, hence the mess...

Why would it not help in tournaments? I expected to have the flag out most of the time but after a few rounds experimenting with the flag in I am expecting to leave it in more often. And seeing the same thoughts from playing partners.

 

Because typically in tournaments you aren't just playing rapid fire golf like this.

 

Exactly, that is just playing ready golf in friendly games. Tournaments are another story.

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Since no one will be able to use their putter-grip suction cups, it will slow things down.

 

Settled.

 

You joke, but I added one to my putter several months ago when my left hip go so bad I could barely get the ball out of the cup!

 

With my step-through swing, overweight body, bag full o' hybrids, and suction cup thingy on the end of my putter, I really do need to try the "Hello my name is Billy Bob. Would you like to have a friendly wager while we play today? My handicap is 12. What's yours?"

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Nobody ever admits to slow play, but too often the foursome in front play pass the parcel with the flag, not knowing who's next to putt or who's allowed to hold the flag - cause it supposedly can't touch the green!

 

To those who support the flag out, do you putt off the green and chip with the flag out seeing as the flag in is such a disadvantage to holing putts?

 

Never seen s group hold the flag. It's always laid down somewhere. And yes. If I'm aiming to make a chip the pin is out.

 

Watch Phil. Possibly the biggest Pelz disciple on earth. He pulls it for almost everything. Why doesn't he believe the supposed science from the guy he follows for anything else ?

 

Must be an Aussie thing to hold the flag, I have laid it on the green a few times, and often someone in the group would pick it up and hold it

 

And granted at top level golf, do what you want with the flag, but for the average club golfer, am yet to see anyone take it out while chipping

 

Phil's always been a bit out there, not unlike Bryson, but just really hope to see Tiger putt with the flag in, as am sure that would suddenly get the majority of golfers to follow

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Putted with the flag in today. Putted 3 balls off the green. Lol. One was a 20 ft eagle putt.

 

Conspiracy? I think so.

 

True story above. Second line is a joke for those born minus sense of humor.

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Sorry if this has been addressed already but are all flagsticks standard size and regulated by the rules of golf? I think I've seen thick flagsticks in windy areas.

Yes. They have to be cylindrical, no more than 0.75 inches diameter below 3" above the green surface, and can't have anything do dampen an impact. Go to the Equipment Rules on the USGA website.

 

Apologies Dave but what you quoted is the max, there is no stated min and no standard. In a different thread I brought up the topic of tapered pins and the impact that would make on the decision to leave the flag in or out.

This is accurate, all that we have is a maximum diameter, and a circular cross section. Actually, there IS a maximum diameter of 2 inches, and I've seen flagsticks that taper from a small tip to a thicker middle. The other prohibitions are that it can't be designed to absorb shocks, and it cant be designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball. I wonder whether a flagstick that tapers at about green level would be disallowed for unduly influencing the ball. I can see that a flagstick that tapers at that level could tend to deflect a putted ball more downward.

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Since no one will be able to use their putter-grip suction cups, it will slow things down.

 

Settled.

 

You joke, but I added one to my putter several months ago when my left hip go so bad I could barely get the ball out of the cup!

 

With my step-through swing, overweight body, bag full o' hybrids, and suction cup thingy on the end of my putter, I really do need to try the "Hello my name is Billy Bob. Would you like to have a friendly wager while we play today? My handicap is 12. What's yours?"

Hmm, I may have coined a new name for you! Reading your 12 handicapping self wager my first thought was.... Wait for it... You sandbagging S'Obee! :)

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Putted with the flag in today. Putted 3 balls off the green. Lol. One was a 20 ft eagle putt.

 

Conspiracy? I think so.

 

True story above. Second line is a joke for those born minus sense of humor.

Just 3 putts off the green? You're improving thanks to Obee's putting thread!

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Putted with the flag in today. Putted 3 balls off the green. Lol. One was a 20 ft eagle putt.

 

Conspiracy? I think so.

 

True story above. Second line is a joke for those born minus sense of humor.

 

like i said...makes for some bold putting

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Putted with the flag in today. Putted 3 balls off the green. Lol. One was a 20 ft eagle putt.

 

Conspiracy? I think so.

 

True story above. Second line is a joke for those born minus sense of humor.

Just 3 putts off the green? You're improving thanks to Obee's putting thread!

 

He said

Bang em in ! Lol

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Putted with the flag in today. Putted 3 balls off the green. Lol. One was a 20 ft eagle putt.

 

Conspiracy? I think so.

 

True story above. Second line is a joke for those born minus sense of humor.

Just 3 putts off the green? You're improving thanks to Obee's putting thread!

 

He said

Bang em in ! Lol

And you stopped listening after the first two words!! 🙉

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Lol^^. Was just a crazy 9. Greens are lightning. I hit almost every shot middle and was in a great Rythm. Playing and walking fast. I had hit the par 5 5th in 2 and pin was tucked back left near a drop off. About 3 ft of break right to left. I put it up there and it looked like it was tracking. But just motored by the hole and then started to creep. And off the side it crept. Down the hilll 4 ft. Pitched it back up across the hole long by6 ft. Then drained the 6 footer for par.

 

Next hole par 3 tucked pin right front. Hit it 6ft above the hole and just miss the birdie. Then watch the putt creep off the green. Made that 10 footer coming back. Just crazy stuff happening. Always putter.

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Since no one will be able to use their putter-grip suction cups, it will slow things down.

 

Settled.

 

You joke, but I added one to my putter several months ago when my left hip go so bad I could barely get the ball out of the cup!

 

With my step-through swing, overweight body, bag full o' hybrids, and suction cup thingy on the end of my putter, I really do need to try the "Hello my name is Billy Bob. Would you like to have a friendly wager while we play today? My handicap is 12. What's yours?"

I mean absolutely nothing bad in saying this, and it's always been an extreme curiosity of mine regarding the suction cup(or digging the ball with the putter), so here goes.

 

If you are dealing with an injury or unable to retrieve the ball from the cup with your hand, how do you tee your ball up, mark your ball on the green and fix your ball marks? Surely, all of these events occur several times(if not many) during the course of a round, so how do they differ.

 

Again, no ill will is meant by bringing this up, but I've never really gotten an honest answer on the issue.

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Lol^^. Was just a crazy 9. Greens are lightning. I hit almost every shot middle and was in a great Rythm. Playing and walking fast. I had hit the par 5 5th in 2 and pin was tucked back left near a drop off. About 3 ft of break right to left. I put it up there and it looked like it was tracking. But just motored by the hole and then started to creep. And off the side it crept. Down the hilll 4 ft. Pitched it back up across the hole long by6 ft. Then drained the 6 footer for par.

 

Next hole par 3 tucked pin right front. Hit it 6ft above the hole and just miss the birdie. Then watch the putt creep off the green. Made that 10 footer coming back. Just crazy stuff happening. Always putter.

Damn, you need to come play with us in Phoenix. We'd love to have you at our club. Standing bet is if a player putts off the green he buys a drink for the other three in the group. :)

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This rule is confusing, time wasting and awkward.

 

Confusing ?!?!?!

 

With the huge revamping of the Rules, THIS one is confusing ? Leave it in or take it out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

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Since no one will be able to use their putter-grip suction cups, it will slow things down.

 

Settled.

 

You joke, but I added one to my putter several months ago when my left hip go so bad I could barely get the ball out of the cup!

 

With my step-through swing, overweight body, bag full o' hybrids, and suction cup thingy on the end of my putter, I really do need to try the "Hello my name is Billy Bob. Would you like to have a friendly wager while we play today? My handicap is 12. What's yours?"

I mean absolutely nothing bad in saying this, and it's always been an extreme curiosity of mine regarding the suction cup(or digging the ball with the putter), so here goes.

 

If you are dealing with an injury or unable to retrieve the ball from the cup with your hand, how do you tee your ball up, mark your ball on the green and fix your ball marks? Surely, all of these events occur several times(if not many) during the course of a round, so how do they differ.

 

Again, no ill will is meant by bringing this up, but I've never really gotten an honest answer on the issue.

 

No need to be so nice with the question. :-)

 

You would be surprised how much that extra 6 inches you have to bend down can affect something like a bad hip.

 

Fixing ball marks and marking my ball is bad enough. When my hip is really bad, the extra 6 inches you have to go down to get the ball really does make it worse.

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Played today again with the flag in for all putts. One of our regular was missing so we had a random join us and even though he seemed reluctant at first, after a few holes he was fully on board (btw, on the first green we told him we were playing with the flag in and he could do what he wanted, but he told us he’d go along not to hold us up). The only incident was when my buddy hammered a long putt that hit the flag and he ended up with a 8-10 footer coming back. Without the flag that putt likely would be been 30 feet past the flag.

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This rule is confusing, time wasting and awkward.

 

Confusing ?!?!?!

 

With the huge revamping of the Rules, THIS one is confusing ? Leave it in or take it out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

Sure, confusing. If I want it in and you want it out it creates confusion.

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This rule is confusing, time wasting and awkward.

 

Confusing ?!?!?!

 

With the huge revamping of the Rules, THIS one is confusing ? Leave it in or take it out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

Sure, confusing. If I want it in and you want it out it creates confusion.

To me, that's not confusion. It might be inconvenient, but you each know what you want, and each of you is within the rules, that's fairly simple.

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I dont mean to crosspost this too much but I found it interesting.

 

It is scientific enough for me without being unrealisticly so - IE done indoors on a carpet. It was done outdoors using a stimpmeter as a control.

 

I dont think its going to change anyone's opinions so I post it simply under the heading of "I found it interesting."

 

FWIW I've played my last few rounds with the pin in and am very quickly getting used to it.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mc90UbpJbuM

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Sorry if this has been addressed already but are all flagsticks standard size and regulated by the rules of golf? I think I've seen thick flagsticks in windy areas.

Yes. They have to be cylindrical, no more than 0.75 inches diameter below 3" above the green surface, and can't have anything do dampen an impact. Go to the Equipment Rules on the USGA website.

 

Apologies Dave but what you quoted is the max, there is no stated min and no standard. In a different thread I brought up the topic of tapered pins and the impact that would make on the decision to leave the flag in or out.

This is accurate, all that we have is a maximum diameter, and a circular cross section. Actually, there IS a maximum diameter of 2 inches, and I've seen flagsticks that taper from a small tip to a thicker middle. The other prohibitions are that it can't be designed to absorb shocks, and it cant be designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball. I wonder whether a flagstick that tapers at about green level would be disallowed for unduly influencing the ball. I can see that a flagstick that tapers at that level could tend to deflect a putted ball more downward.

 

That was exactly my point in the other thread regarding tapered pins. Those that are thinner at the bottom would seem to provide an advantage when putting with the stick in. It wouldn't seem as though the "intention" of the rules is for a pin to provide any advantage whatsoever.

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This rule is confusing, time wasting and awkward.

 

Confusing ?!?!?!

 

With the huge revamping of the Rules, THIS one is confusing ? Leave it in or take it out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

Sure, confusing. If I want it in and you want it out it creates confusion.

To me, that's not confusion. It might be inconvenient, but you each know what you want, and each of you is within the rules, that's fairly simple.

 

A rule "being confusing" versus "creating confusion" is completely different. Semantics matter.

 

But as you say, it's still not confusion. There's really nothing confusing about saying "please remove the flag" or "please keep it in."

 

Sure, with "strangers" we won't be able to anticipate whether to keep it in or not, but that's not confusion. There are a lot of situations where verbal and nonverbal communication is used in golf. Moving a mark, "ready golf", etc. Somehow we've mastered all those situations. This is no different, just more frequent.

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Love that video above. Leaving it in might help me bang in those touchy 4 foot putts. (worst part of my game)

 

It was interesting. However, he says "with the ideal speed," but those balls are cruising at the hole from 4 feet away. Zooming right over the cup (with no flag) and rolling 3 feet past. They certainly don't appear to be rolling off that stimpmeter at "ideal speed." Now, if you want to ram them home from 4 feet, then yes, that data doesn't lie. Could certainly be an advantage for more aggressive putting. But I'd like to see a similar video where the putts are actually being rolled at "ideal speed."

 

 

**Edit = Okay so I just watched it again. He says that with the ideal speed, the flagstick doesn't appear to make a difference because they will go in either way. But when they are hammered, the stick helps.

 

That makes more sense.

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This rule is confusing, time wasting and awkward.

 

Confusing ?!?!?!

 

With the huge revamping of the Rules, THIS one is confusing ? Leave it in or take it out,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, :cheesy: :cheesy: :cheesy:

 

Sure, confusing. If I want it in and you want it out it creates confusion.

To me, that's not confusion. It might be inconvenient, but you each know what you want, and each of you is within the rules, that's fairly simple.

 

A rule "being confusing" versus "creating confusion" is completely different. Semantics matter.

 

But as you say, it's still not confusion. There's really nothing confusing about saying "please remove the flag" or "please keep it in."

 

Sure, with "strangers" we won't be able to anticipate whether to keep it in or not, but that's not confusion. There are a lot of situations where verbal and nonverbal communication is used in golf. Moving a mark, "ready golf", etc. Somehow we've mastered all those situations. This is no different, just more frequent.

 

You're right, sorry for my English. That rule is straightforward, but it will create confusion on the green, especially if you play without caddies (imho).

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Apologies Dave but what you quoted is the max, there is no stated min and no standard. In a different thread I brought up the topic of tapered pins and the impact that would make on the decision to leave the flag in or out.

This is accurate, all that we have is a maximum diameter, and a circular cross section. Actually, there IS a maximum diameter of 2 inches, and I've seen flagsticks that taper from a small tip to a thicker middle. The other prohibitions are that it can't be designed to absorb shocks, and it cant be designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball. I wonder whether a flagstick that tapers at about green level would be disallowed for unduly influencing the ball. I can see that a flagstick that tapers at that level could tend to deflect a putted ball more downward.

 

That was exactly my point in the other thread regarding tapered pins. Those that are thinner at the bottom would seem to provide an advantage when putting with the stick in. It wouldn't seem as though the "intention" of the rules is for a pin to provide any advantage whatsoever.

In my memory, which admittedly is far from perfect, when I've played a course with "tapered" flagsticks, the taper occurs at some significant distance above the ground, well above the height of a rolling golf ball. So I started googling. I can see places to purchase tapered flagsticks, but no real descriptions. Then I stumbled onto this article:

http://archive.lib.msu.edu/tic/holen/article/2008jun22.pdf

Apparently a superintendent did a moderately scientific test of three different flagstick models. You can read for yourself, but thhey did find a slight difference between a standard straight 1/2" model and a 3/4" tapered model. In both cases, the portion of the stick within 12" of the surface was 1/2" diameter. I wonder of Bryson has read this.

 

Oh my, I just stumbled onto another one, "The Putt-Saver Technology is a precisely tapered fagstick angle to direct your ball into the cup."

https://www.standardgolf.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/puttsaver.pdf

I wonder if that violates this requirement:

The flagstick must not:

a. incorporate features, including materials, designed to act in a shock absorbing manner or have shock absorbing properties upon impact with the ball, or

b. have features or properties which are designed to unduly influence the movement of the ball, or

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I dont mean to crosspost this too much but I found it interesting.

 

It is scientific enough for me without being unrealisticly so - IE done indoors on a carpet. It was done outdoors using a stimpmeter as a control.

 

I dont think its going to change anyone's opinions so I post it simply under the heading of "I found it interesting."

 

FWIW I've played my last few rounds with the pin in and am very quickly getting used to it.

 

 

Interesting ? Yeah, interesting is a good word for it. Conclusive ? Not really.

 

At the sped up version, right before the 1:25 mark he's rolling balls from about 3-4 feet and those appear to be going way faster than anybody would really hit it from that short a distance.

 

Then, starting at about 1:25 he's obvious a fair bit further than those 3-4 footers we originally saw and every one of those "putts" is hitting the left side of the hole,,,,,,, and one of them went a good 10 feet by.

 

Proving a point ? Don't think so. Scientific testing ? No. So how can one really "depend" on this vide ?. But interesting ? Sure.

 

Just as interesting as the 35 footer on Saturday that ran over the hole (because the flag was pulled) instead of going in (?) and the 7 footer the same round that hit the back right-center edge and spun out and the 15 downhiller of mine yesterday that hit the flag and stayed in (that maybe/probably/might/most likely) have gone in anyway.

 

Don't get me wrong now - I'm one who definitely thinks the stick helps more than it hurts but I'm not concerned with the 1 out of a thousand putts that would go 10 feet by the hole had it not hit the hole or the stick. And those same putts hitting the stick and ending up closer ? Same-same. If he hits is that hard and catches a break and the next putt is from 12 inches, oh well. Lucky breaks happen all the time.

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