Bandon Dunes 5th Course (Sheep Ranch)

[mallrat]

I highly doubt they will start with Poa on the greens. The fescue held strong for what 12-15 years. There is no need for sod either because the whole course will be going through the grow in period together. If you guys ever want to see something cool watch the 1st real mow after a grow in, same thing with 1st now after a course overseeds. Bandons Agronomy team is top notch and you throw in the team from Kemper sports and they’ll do it right, it is such a different climate from Chambers. There were actually a few of them trying to convince the USGA to go to Poa before the Open at Chambers.

[mallrat]

> @spud3 said:

> Thinking a bit more about it, I don't know that they would need to go directly to the poa. It took 15+ years for the fescue greens to get to where they need to be replaced. Which is I think about normal for a green's lifespan before it needs some major renovation, especially on a sand-based platform. They may just go with the fescue mix. Personally, I hope they go fescue. I loved the greens when they were all fescue.

 

 

That’s the thing about Poa from my understanding is that it doesn’t have a lifespan or doesn’t need to be redone. Also I imagine they are all built to USGA spec vs being pop up greens. Poa makes a transition sometime in it’s life where is goes from an annual to perennial (or maybe the other way around) and once it makes that transition it stops producing seed heads. Many of the courses in the PNW that have the best putting surfaces (Tacoma, Royal Oaks, Bend B&CC, Eugene) have made that transition.

[duffer987]

Interestingly enough - or not - the turf farm for Chambers is in the Vancouver burb I grew up in. @mallrat is PNW poa 'different' from say Norcal poa?

[mallrat]

From my understanding there are LOTS of varietals of Poa and you could run into each one anywhere. Most courses have different varietals on their courses. But they will all have similar characteristics. It is also a grass that you have to treat very differently than say Bent, that is one reason courses fight it so hard.

 

Also, the PNW from my understanding is the grass seed capital of the world, specifically the valley around Corvallis. I may be mistaken but the last 4 or 5 world cups have all seeded their fields using seed from this area along with a lot of the baseball and football stadiums in the US. Not sure what grass they use. Barenbrug is the of the largest grass seed companies in the world and is based in Corvallis.

[Matt J]

Sometimes it is difficult for taxonomy to accurately describe certain species. Extremophile bacteria, human vectored viruses, and many other species change so rapidly and so specifically for their conditions that it's difficult to discern exactly when a new sub-species begins and others end.

 

I think the big advantage to using these turf farm strains of poa is that they've already "hybridized" into the right type of annual bluegrass. I don't know if under the right stress they will go back to making seed pods but I doubt it. Usually when an organism changes over their life span it's due to genetic mutation and it's much easier to mutate into losing a structure such as reproductive seed production than it is to gain a structure. In essence, the desirable poa is using the resources of sun, water, and nutrients to proliferate laterally through root and stolon growth rather than pop seeds.

 

Believe it or not, as far as I know, growing these turf farm varieties of the right type of hybridized annual bluegrass for greens is a pretty new thing. I'm sure that Chambers or Bandon or whomever else, once given the sod, could grow acres of it if they so desired. It wouldn't surprise me if the company that has invested the time and money into developing it is trying very hard to maximize their profits on each of these projects. I really enjoyed this article about the Chambers Bay project.... I think Bandon would be foolish not to jump on board and dedicate a lot of resource to growing as much of this strain of poa as possible. Seems they could start patching it into the worst places and eventually replace entire greens as needed.

 

https://www.turfnet.com/news.html/work-begins-on-chambers-bay-greens-renovation-project-r1121/

[mallrat]

Courses don’t have the space needed for the growth of these turf farms. They also have very dedicated Agronomy teams for them, I have a buddy who is on one of them. He has a Masters in Turf Management. Most course nurseries are barely bigger than the average green. Turf farms are often bigger than a whole course for just 1 strain. Plus the cost of new equipment would be insane, a lot of courses would have to forego any new equipment for 5 years for 1 piece of industrial equipment. Follow Tillers Turf on IG or Twitter to see a 1st class turf farm. They are based in the UK but will give you a good idea.

[duffer987]

Indeed! And it's weird to drive past field after field of what looks like fairway, to realise that's pretty much what it is:


 

[spud3]

FYI, I just got a response to my message to the resort about the grass type being laid for the greens on the SR:

"The greens are being seeded with 100% fescue, the same mix that was used on Old Macdonald."

 

WOOOOT!!!

[buzlin]

I called yesterday to make some changes to our April 2020 reservation. It was easy to switch our courses around while keeping our prime tee times, 7:30 am and 1:30 pm. Wondering if the news about sheep ranch opening in sometime in 2020 (likely summer) for public play has led some to cancel their early 2020 bookings. Of course this is all speculation based on a single data point. But hey, when you're obsessed with the place, that's what you do!

[Matt J]

I don't know if a lot of golfers would be moving their reservations to catch the Sheep's Ranch, likely some.

 

Seems to me they do more big groups than you would guess, as much winter business as any other season due to rates, and many groups come every year. None of those things I would have guessed before going 10 or 12 times.

 

Poked by head over the cliffs from the beach access to see the progress last week. The south side has been hydroseeded, but no greens. Still have a backhoe out in the middle of the course shaping and no fairway seed down. Looks great, but I still can't get over the fact Coore didn't design bunkers. Weird.

[spud3]

All I know is they better get cracking on the additional rooms and restaurant that they will sorely need once the SR is officially open!

[spud3]

Did a quick check of the Bandon site and they have added a tile for the SR along with the other courses on the Golf page. Not much more than a 'Coming Soon' blurb and a link to SR page, but a couple dramatic drone photos. Can't wait!!

[2putttom]

thnx 4 the update spud

[mallrat]

> @spud3 said:

> All I know is they better get cracking on the additional rooms and restaurant that they will sorely need once the SR is officially open!

 

I kind of hope they don’t, just open up more tee times on each course. Maybe they want to wait and see how it alleviates play on the existing courses. It might give them that day to close each course for maintenance.

[CMCSGolf]

> @mallrat said:

> > @spud3 said:

> > All I know is they better get cracking on the additional rooms and restaurant that they will sorely need once the SR is officially open!

>

> I kind of hope they don’t, just open up more tee times on each course. Maybe they want to wait and see how it alleviates play on the existing courses. It might give them that day to close each course for maintenance.

 

Mallrat, do you think they need to do that? I know the courses get a ton of play, but is there enough strain on them that it affects the quality of conditions? I've been there twice and never had a complaint about the conditions, so I wonder if it's necessary for them to close a course. But I do think there would be some value to opening up the courses with more tee times for a similar number of players...

[Matt J]

> @mallrat said:

> > @spud3 said:

> > All I know is they better get cracking on the additional rooms and restaurant that they will sorely need once the SR is officially open!

>

> I kind of hope they don’t, just open up more tee times on each course. Maybe they want to wait and see how it alleviates play on the existing courses. It might give them that day to close each course for maintenance.

 

This is my hope.

 

I would imagine that is exactly what is going to happen. Ultimately part of the vision was for the community to have some access to more golf, but that went down the drain with the land swap disaster. So, perhaps they will just let this course get up to speed then look at all the data and see what kind of lodging would really fit their niche. It might be something more luxury, like the villas at Pebble, or it might be something more basic, like a hostel style group rooms for visiting high school golf teams... who knows? Without really looking at occupancy data and reading the feedback, we would be flying blind by guessing.

 

I do not think the restaurants are fully booked for dinner seatings at the moment when the resort is full capacity. The issue as I see it is more that all of the guests seem to want to come back to the main lodge base area and eat at the pub. It makes sense. Guys trips, desire to socialize, talk about the round, etc. - only the experienced Bandonistas are exploring the Trail's End or The Gallery until they find out they can't get a reservation at McKee's. I think Pacific Grill does fine because of the popularity of the Punch Bowl. It's a complicated operation at this point, reminds me of a ski resort. Takes careful management to make folks feel like they're getting the full experience without having everybody at one place all the time. I would imagine they will address the obvious need to seat groups over 12 in more of a banquet type facility. That's really their niche, bigger groups going on their big informal men's club Bandon trips.

[spud3]

All good points, especially the one about looking at data. I am certain that they have already done their analysis and projections. In several conversations I had during my trip in December, from front desk staff to caddies to the pro shop manager, they all acknowledged that the resort is aware of the fact that they are nearing their max in lodging. This is borne out by the fact that you had better be right on the phone on Jan 1 if you want to book a weekend in the off- or shoulder- seasons _for the next year_. I missed it by a couple weeks last year and was shut out of February entirely and nearly missed March as well.

 

I agree with Matt's assessment of the restaurant situation. I much prefer the prices and proximity of McKee's over the other joints, and I even have my car when I'm there. I don't think I'm the only one, as many times you can't even get a seat at the bar in McKee's before 7:30 or 8.

 

My fear is that the market demand will dictate the prices, and they can only go up if there is suddenly 25% more tee times available and no more lodging or restaurant options. It's already getting to be difficult to justify an annual visit, price-wise. It would be very easy for Bandon to turn into a mega-version of Pebble, where they basically only cater to those who are wealthy or are checking off a bucket list item.

[philsRHman]

When you guys mention opening more tee times, what restrictions are currently in place? Do they limit the play on each course by times? Are you suggesting tightening the time between groups? Are their blackout windows at the moment?

[buzlin]

I hope that they don't build additional lodging. Maybe another McKee's style/level restaurant/bar though. I've never seen the Gallery at anywhere near capacity, so there seems to be room to handle more diners. I love the idea of keeping the same number of rounds/year across the resort. I fear that Bandon will get too crowded and lose what to me is the perfect feel. Enough people to give it energy/vibrancy, but without the mess and fuss of having too many people. Thinking selfishly, I want SRs purpose to be to add to what Bandon has to offer the golfer (like what the Punchbowl and The Preserve did), and not as a way of making more money by selling more rounds/food/lodging/merch.

[spud3]

> @philsRHman said:

> When you guys mention opening more tee times, what restrictions are currently in place? Do they limit the play on each course by times? Are you suggesting tightening the time between groups? Are their blackout windows at the moment?

 

I'm talking about when they open the SR, there will be those additional tee times that are available. In the winter months, they close one course per day for maintenance. Personally, I think the spacing between tee times right now is about right. They also inform anyone reserving the first hour or two is committing to a 4 hour round or less.

[The Pearl]

I enjoy going downtown for food after the round. Not crowded and always a good vibe. We did not eat a single meal on the resort in March.

[Matt J]

> @"The Pearl" said:

> I enjoy going downtown for food after the round. Not crowded and always a good vibe. We did not eat a single meal on the resort in March.

 

I think that is a part of the puzzle with the food and lodging. The Resort has already finished the process to receive approval to build a hotel in town. So, I'm guessing they are going to make a 2-night minimum and divert much of the pass through traffic driving the 101 to their lodging in town knowing they'll likely eat off premise.

 

Many big projects polarize nearby communities at conception. I would not accuse Keiser or anyone associated with the development of making promises they could not keep, but I do think that many of the "pro-golf resort" locals assumed that there would be more economic benefit and trumpeted the coming of the resort as a big boon to the economy. That never happened. With Kemper Sports at the wheel, the resort is run much like any big corporate structure with a huge emphasis on managing costs and maximizing profits. Of course, that is to be expected, but that resulted in the facility capturing the vast majority of the money it attracted in the first 25 years. Keiser was openly seeking a way to give back to the community and I think a little shift in the model to capture a few less dollars and let them cycle around town might be the idea.

[Matt J]

^^^^^^^ this also dovetails nicely with the amount of local traffic the resort attracts. Once again it's anecdotal, but the last few times I've been over to the resort there were a lot of comments made about how Oregonians have started watching the weather, booking tee times, and driving over for just a night, maybe two, or in some cases (having done it myself) simply driving over playing and driving home in one day.

 

The idea of "extra tee times" comes from the fact that the lodging was basically built such that 100% capacity should nearly fill the 4 courses, now with a 5th course you would assume there are something like 200 available plays that come available. So more flexibility when booking, and more walk-up ability for locals.

[mallrat]

I think it would be awesome for the local economy to hold off building lodging.

 

As for tee times, I was thinking it would free up tee times for more people to play 36. Right now the 36 hole guys battle people who want to drink and sleep in but if more mid morning tee times opened up it would open up a couple tee times a day on each course.

 

As for maintenance, I was just thinking of releasing the pressure on each course. Imagine being able to close each course for 1 Day a week for 3-4 months on a course that gets 70,000 rounds a year. That’s roughly 3,000 rounds a year but you could basically fill divots on 12 holes that day along with regular morning maintenance.

[Matt J]

I think they do close one for maintenance most of the winter, Monday through Thursday maybe? I've called over for tee times a few times and was told a course was closed. Nonetheless, obviously with more golf and the same amount of lodging courses should improve.

[mallrat]

Yeah but it’s not super consistent on the closures currently

[woodlandsgolfer]

Photos from today on 16 of Old Mac. Old Mac played like a beast today with 4-5 club winds.

 

[buzlin]

Looks like there are some bunkers. I suppose they meant that there weren't going to build any new bunkers? Only use existing natural blow outs?

[mallrat]

They could be waste bunkers or basically unmaintained.

 

Edit... that definitely looks like a couple pot bunkers

[DustlnTheWind]

Anyone's guess on Sheep Ranch public opening? May 2020? Later? Looking to do a a 3rd Bandon trip in 2020 but might book late shoulder season this time to make sure I play Sheep Ranch.