El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[TreyWingbat]

Maybe he just wants a pair of new Skechers Go Golf shoes too?

[Long Shot]

Declining 15k is called the principal. Kuchar is a cheap man, good for the caddie. And all of you saying you would caddie for 5k and don't know what he's mad about are probably the some of the same people who are always low balling people on BST who would likely cry about it too after the fact.

[slide13]

According to Kuchar this is a non story. Not so sure about that, Matt. Kuchar is cheap and this is a bad look.

 

Completely agree. A SUBSTANTIAL Bonus based on performance and total winnngs is absolutely 100% expected. Fill in caddie or not.

 

A $5,000 total payment after a win is so vile, so cheap, so disgusting, that I will never view Kuchar the same way again.

 

Grotesque.

 

Agreed. That's super cheap. I get the argument that it's not the same as a full time caddie and I think a fair number should have been discussed after the fact to make sure everyone was happy. Personally, if I'd have just won almost 1.3mil I'd give up 10% no question, but that easy to say when it's not really my money. Still, $50k is barely a dent in that. Kuchar used to be one of those golfers I could get behind, seemed like a nice guy. Guess not.

[SwooshLT]

Sorry caddies on winning bags get 10% .....common practice.....why the re-write now? Poor little non-american gets what I give him?

 

This is untrue.

 

Even if it was 10% on post tax , it should 80k ..... this is a sham and you know it

[GeorgeHWB]

People here really like to spend other people's money.

 

My take: this is none of my business.

 

I'm out...

[gazav]

To the people in this thread who think El Tucan is wrong:

 

He didn't get paid the specified contract value because there was no specified contract value, it was 3k + a percentage of winnings. It says so right there in the article. In my opinion, the 50k number is about right, which represents 3.8% of the total winnings, meaning that the caddie agrees that he shouldn't be paid as much as a regular tour caddie for a win. So why are we arguing that he thinks he should?

Also, why did El Tucan wait to the 24th to come out publicly? Well, perhaps he was having back-channel conversations or waiting for Kuch to extend an offer. When a reasonable one didn't come, he went public.

Also, why did he not just take the 15k extra? Well, I'll put the question to the supreme business negotiators in this thread: Is it generally seen as good business practice to accept the first offer? If so, I have some land in Florida to sell you.

 

I hate to say it, but I do feel that there are some racial undertones to some of the responses in this thread. Give the guy a fair shake, and put yourself in his shoes. If you would do what he did for less money, good for you, but would you have got Kuchar to the win? Doubt it.

 

Agree with this take and I'll add that it seems Kuchar had a great PR opportunity here and missed it for some reason. Why wouldn't he give him a little extra and endear himself to the people, tournament and the caddie. Clearly it hasn't bothered Kuchar but it's tough to view him the same way after reading this. And yes, I have had the opportunity to give more than the agreed upon amount and I did. It felt right and I and know that the extra I gave to my ISR short term, paid 5-10x long term.

[krtgolfing]

20,000 (or could have been) for a weeks worth of work is 7 figures over a year. Hell even 5,000 a week is 260k. Pretty sure most resort caddies would be happy with that for a week of work. If you do not like the contract before the start of the week then don't accept the offer. Simple business practices.

[Long Shot]

Here my formula for what El Tucan might have been paid. If Standard tour caddie pay would be ~10% for a win, kuchars regular bagman would have been paid $126K. Since a resort looper probably did about 15% of the work that a regular caddie would do leading up to and during the tournament week and ZERO expenses, that's $19k. The complaining still would be the same.

Tell us how he would do 15% of the work of a regular caddie? A regular caddie would walk the course and figure out all his yardages and take notes from all over the course (this guy already has that done since he is local), regular caddie would spend time on the greens and learn them (this guy already knows them since he's local), only thing he likely wouldn't do that the regular caddie did was give club advice, so the guy likely did 75% or more work that a regular caddie would, easily justifying a 50-60k payment. I also do know that at a local Womans US Open here in which I was a caddies in that yard, and about 12-15 locals were used, all received the appropriate tour caddie compensation, and several pros dropped their regulars to take local caddies because the greens had so many nuances.

[darredondo09]

The way I see it, I will agree that it was not wise for Ortiz to enter into the job without a solid understanding of what Kuchar meant by "unspecified percentage"; however, when you consider what a regular caddie would make for a win (usually 10%) and then consider what Ortiz got (under .002%) you can see that it does not seem that Ortiz was paid commensurately for his services.

 

A lot of people on here are saying all he did was show up and lug a bag, completely discounting his knowledge of the course, which probably exceeds what a normal caddie would have had; this was probably the reason Kuchar wanted him anyway. Ortiz felt $50,000 would have been fair, and that's about 4% of Kuchar's winnings, 40% of what a normal caddie would have made for a win. So even assuming Ortiz didn't do half the work of a normal caddie, 4% seems fair to me, but to each his own.

[deadsolid...shank]

Declining 15k is called the principal. Kuchar is a cheap man, good for the caddie. And all of you saying you would caddie for 5k and don't know what he's mad about are probably the some of the same people who are always low balling people on BST who would likely cry about it too after the fact.

 

No. Those of us saying we would carry for $5,000 would know that entered into a agreement. And then we would stand by it and not start whining for more.

[Under2hours]

Thinking back to the original posts and everyone claiming that no one knew what was paid...... Now we know.

 

Funny how anyone with any sense pretty much knew the story & were comfortable that the $5,000 amount was probably right.

 

Matt stood by his guns with his flippant response. Very easily could have made it right and turned into a positive, instead of a PR nightmare.

 

He stood by his guns and frankly expect it to cost him.

[CCTxGolf]

Declining 15k is called the principal. Kuchar is a cheap man, good for the caddie. And all of you saying you would caddie for 5k and don't know what he's mad about are probably the some of the same people who are always low balling people on BST who would likely cry about it too after the fact.

 

No. Those of us saying we would carry for $5,000 would know that entered into a agreement. And then we would stand by it and not start whining for more.

 

Hell I’ll take it a step further... I would pay Kuch to spend the week inside the ropes looping for him!

[Under2hours]

People here really like to spend other people's money.

 

My take: this is none of my business.

 

I'm out...

People here really like to spend other people's money.

 

My take: this is none of my business.

 

I'm out...

 

Your picture says it all..... The myob bunch has spoken.

[CCTxGolf]

Thinking back to the original posts and everyone claiming that no one knew what was paid...... Now we know.

 

Funny how anyone with any sense pretty much knew the story & were comfortable that the $5,000 amount was probably right.

 

Matt stood by his guns with his flippant response. Very easily could have made it right and turned into a positive, instead of a PR nightmare.

 

He stood by his guns and frankly expect it to cost him.

 

I don’t think it will cost him a damn thing. Sounds like it saved him 45k to me. Toucan only hurt himself.

[I_HATE_SNOW]

So he turns down $15,000, 3 times the average salary of Mexico, and guarantees that he won't be carrying for Kuch next year? Pure genius! Crowds still loved Kuch at the Phoenix tourney.

[deadsolid...shank]

Thinking back to the original posts and everyone claiming that no one knew what was paid...... Now we know.

 

Funny how anyone with any sense pretty much knew the story & were comfortable that the $5,000 amount was probably right.

 

Matt stood by his guns with his flippant response. Very easily could have made it right and turned into a positive, instead of a PR nightmare.

 

He stood by his guns and frankly expect it to cost him.

 

It’s not going to cost him a damn thing. I posted this in the original thread, watch in Phoenix where they are ruthless. They still love him, and will continue to do so. Remeber, the vast majority of the golf world has never even heard this story.

 

The only person who is going to be out is the caddie, because no way he’s getting a bag for this in the future.

[Obee]

If there was an unspecified bonus amount left to Kuchar's discretion and he decided on $2k out of $1.3mm then it's pretty hard not to see him as cheap. Was it standard and reasonable? Maybe but still pretty cheap and makes me think Mr. Smiles is

 

these are my thoughts. Kuchar didn't do anything "wrong" per se but it is hard for me to understand that he had a real thought process and decided another $2K was the appropriate amount.

 

Agree 100% with this. Of course Matt Kuchar didn't break a law. Of course he's not going to face a tribunal. Of course some think we he did was totally fine. And others absolutely don't.

 

Imagine it this way Team Kuchar: If you were his good friend and he came to you after the tournament and asked you this question, what would you have told him:

 

"Geez, bud, I'm kind of at a loss here. I mean this is uncharted territory. Not sure what to give him as a bonus since he's not a tour caddie and all. What do you think?"

 

And you can't equivocate. The guy is asking you your opinion on what to give the caddie. No saying, "Well, I would have asked him what he felt comfortable with." Dispense with all that crap and answer the question honestly. If he insisted on hearing your opinion of what you should give a local caddie in that situation, what would you have said?

 

I know what my answer would have been (it would have been a range), and it sure the phock would not have been $2,000.

 

edited to add: I agree that the caddie turning down the $15k was an idiot move.

[ebrasmus21]

DSS on a tear this morning. Keep at it buddy. I just don’t have the energy for this topic anymore. I was really *really* hoping El T was going to say Kuchar had a gun to his head saying he’d murder his family unless they agreed on $5k.

[deadsolid...shank]

If there was an unspecified bonus amount left to Kuchar's discretion and he decided on $2k out of $1.3mm then it's pretty hard not to see him as cheap. Was it standard and reasonable? Maybe but still pretty cheap and makes me think Mr. Smiles is

 

these are my thoughts. Kuchar didn't do anything "wrong" per se but it is hard for me to understand that he had a real thought process and decided another $2K was the appropriate amount.

 

Agree 100% with this. Of course Matt Kuchar didn't break a law. Of course he's not going to face a tribunal. Of course some think we he did was totally fine. And others absolutely don't.

 

Imagine it this way Team Kuchar: If you were his good friend and he came to you after the tournament and asked you this question, what would you have told him:

 

"Geez, bud, I'm kind of at a loss here. I mean this is uncharted territory. Not sure what to give him as a bonus since he's not a tour caddie and all. What do you think?"

 

And you can't equivocate. The guy is asking you your opinion on what to give the caddie. No saying, "Well, I would have asked him what he felt comfortable with." Dispense with all that crap and answer the question honestly. If he insisted on hearing your opinion of what you should give a local caddie in that situation, what would you have said?

 

I know what my answer would have been (it would have been a range), and it sure the phock would not have been $2,000.

 

edited to add: I agree that the caddie turning down the $15k was an idiot move.

 

Fair question Obee, and a good one.

 

I probably would have given more too (easy to say since I’ll never be in the situation), likely some where around 25% of what my normal guy would get.

 

But the bottom line is that with no set agreement in place, it’s totally 100% his call. His alone. And it’s nobody else’s business. Quite frankly, I think it was a mistake to even offer the additional $15,000. While it might have been an after the fact good faith, nice guy gesture, it almost makes him look like he’s admitting he was wrong. But nowhere near as wrong as the fool for not taking it.

 

 

[deadsolid...shank]

DSS on a tear this morning. Keep at it buddy. I just don’t have the energy for this topic anymore. I was really *really* hoping El T was going to say Kuchar had a gun to his head saying he’d murder his family unless they agreed on $5k.

 

I don’t have the energy anymore either. I need to find a job so I have something to do (at least until the snow melts).

 

Think it’s time to head to the gym for “old gleeb” hour.

[jacobEDGE]

Does a fill-in, local caddy deserve 10% of winnings? No, probably not.

 

Does he deserve 0.04% of winnings? No, absolutely not.

 

There's a happy medium here. He never asked for the customary 10%, because he's not a dumb man. He knows he didn't perform and give as much as a year-round Tour caddy does. He didn't have to travel away from home and his family for this tournament. He hasn't spent years carrying the same person's bag, getting to know their game, swing, tendencies, and distances.

 

Personally, I feel the $50,000 he asked for is more than fair. $50,000 of a $1.3 million prize is 3.8%. That seems very acceptable on both parties ends. It's just more than 1/3 of the standard 10%.

[TheInfidel]

This makes A LOT of guys on here look real stupid. Stupid as rocks.

 

$5k is embarrassing.

[ebrasmus21]

DSS on a tear this morning. Keep at it buddy. I just don’t have the energy for this topic anymore. I was really *really* hoping El T was going to say Kuchar had a gun to his head saying he’d murder his family unless they agreed on $5k.

 

I don’t have the energy anymore either. I need to find a job so I have something to do (at least until the snow melts).

 

Become an amateur rocket-scientist for the winter months?? Unless, of course, your a professional rocket-scientist in which case let me know. I’m full of ideas on how you should spend your time.

[ProphetLogic]

Kuch is apparently a cheapskate, but on the injustice radar this is barely a blip.

[rightslice]

What I can figure is most PGA members have around a 6% chance of winning a given tournament. Kuch hadn't won in a while. So the "unspecified bonus" was probably a distant thought. mistakes were made on both sides. I think Kuchar missed a great opportunity to solidify his Golly Gosh BS routine. Bad advice(thought process) all around. I still view him the same. I've never met a person who plays that act and has such a bitting and harsh sense of humor that didn't have an underbelly of meanness.

[deadsolid...shank]

This makes A LOT of guys on here look real stupid. Stupid as rocks.

 

$5k is embarrassing.

 

Really? Stupid? Because they have a different opinion?

 

Chalk one up for your side of the debate. (That was sarcasm for the rest of my stupid side).

 

But I’m guessing you would know about rocks, now go crawl back under yours.

[CasualLie]

Sorry guys, just got back from Mexico and I couldn't post over the dial-up on AOL that Mayakoba is offering.

 

I don't know how Toucan messed this up. I know my Spanish is rusty, but I am pretty sure after validating with Google I translated this correctly. Toucan must have altered my email translation and sent it to the wrong guy! Here is what I gave to El Toucan to email:

 

Dear Tom:

 

My life was great until you showed up. I painted my house, got new curtains, and even got to see my daughter over Christmas for the first time in years (even though my current wife was not so happy). I got to do all of this because of Matt. Yes, it has been hard caddying for $100 per day but once in awhile I get lucky and get $200 which I have been using to buy more T-Shirts to sell on the side. People love a T-shirt with me and Matt smiling with the trophy. I was a hero.

 

Until you came along. You good for nothing busybody. You promised you could get me $50,000. I never even heard of Twitter but you said you could get Twitter to get me $50,000. You drank all my tequila until the wee hours making all these promises. I bought an iphone XS Max so I could meet Twitter.

 

I already borrowed against the $50,000 to get my laundromat going. Now I owe for that, have boxes of T-shirts unsold, and people all over Twitter and some jodienda golfwrx (sorry, I am mad!). You should pay me $50,000 Tom so I can have my life back. You should get that from Matt. You said he would pay. I don't believe you anymore, you probably never won any golf tournaments before!

 

Get me my money Tom or next time you are at Mayakoba it won't just be tequila you will be gargling.

 

EL TOUCAN (with a guitar case)

 

And to make matters worse, I translated the acceptance of $15,000 and El Toucan made that worse. Ugh...I give up.

[MtlJeff]

DSS on a tear this morning. Keep at it buddy. I just don’t have the energy for this topic anymore. I was really *really* hoping El T was going to say Kuchar had a gun to his head saying he’d murder his family unless they agreed on $5k.

 

Yeah I can't be bothered with this anymore. People were cheering Kuchar at the last tournament. Let's just move on to the next case where people are upset at someone wealthy. Thankfully socialism will solve all of this

 

 

 

 

[Under2hours]

Again if El Tucan isn't lying (and as far as we know he hasn't to this point) and it was agreed $3,000 + % (or tip) and Kuch & the golf world knows 10% is the rate, Kuch is a cheap SOB.

 

When it came to light in & around January 12th, Kuch could have done his mea culpa's and both would come out as winners. Instead he gave that Kuch smirk and flippant response.

 

Even after that he could/should have done the right thing and it would have been a PR coup.

 

And yes it will affect him financially and his reputation.

[ebrasmus21]

DSS on a tear this morning. Keep at it buddy. I just don’t have the energy for this topic anymore. I was really *really* hoping El T was going to say Kuchar had a gun to his head saying he’d murder his family unless they agreed on $5k.

 

Yeah I can't be bothered with this anymore. People were cheering Kuchar at the last tournament. Let's just move on to the next case where people are upset at someone wealthy. Thankfully socialism will solve all of this

 

I’m still trying to figure out how to get people to feel sorry for me. I want it to be a mix of indignant rage and heartbreak - you know - for my situation.