El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[Jagpilotohio]

“5k is a good week” is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

It’s more than out of touch. It’s flat out delusional. If he actually believes what he’s saying it’s a very disturbing snapshot of his world view.

[Komarms]

The fact is, he had an opportunity to come out looking like a great guy for really not that much of an expense. Give the guy 50k and there’s no story, give the guy 100k and it probably makes headlines. For him to not see this as an opportunity really says a lot about his character. Kinda hoping those kuuuuuuuch chants turn into some boos for a little while at least

[Jagpilotohio]

Nice call Richard.

 

 

“Whatever you do....don’t Kuch the guy.”

 

 

His name is going to become a verb after this debacle. I’m adopting it immediately. ; )

[dropkicked]

Nice call Richard.

 

 

“Whatever you do....don’t Kuch the guy.”

 

 

His name is going to become a verb after this debacle. I’m adopting it immediately. ; )

Kuch

Woke

Lit

[Jagpilotohio]

 

Dude!! Did you really just Kooch the valet?!? So uncool Bro.

[Forged4ever]

“5k is a good week” is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

It’s more than out of touch. It’s flat out delusional. If he actually believes what he’s saying it’s a very disturbing snapshot of his world view.

Great Point!!!

 

He makes some of my NFL Boys look like William Shakespeare???

 

KOOOOOOCH!!!!

 

All the Best,

RP

[Jagpilotohio]

 

 

“Man, did you just Kooch the Bartender on that round of 20 shots?!? So freakin’ harsh. We’re never coming back here Bro.”

[deadsolid...shank]

I'm glad Kuchar is not caving to a bunch of social media warriors. There used to be a time when a agreement between two people was private and those involved honored that agreement. The way deals should be.

 

I get no pleasure from seeing a worker get stiffed regardless of where the story got traction.

 

Deals should be done with contracts when it involves that scale of money but seems like (some) PGA Tour players want their cake and to eat it too.

 

He made 10X what he would have made carrying the bag for four days for resort guests. HE DIDN’T GET STIFFED!!

 

The amount of bonus after the fact is certainly a valid point of contention, but essentially is nothing more than everyone’s personal opinion. But he most certainly did not get stiffed.

 

Getting stiffed is not a comparison between what he would have received if he had just caddied at the course normally all week and what Kuchar gave him. It’s comparing what fill-in caddies on Tour get when their guy wins and what Kuchar ended up giving him.

 

I’m simply stating the fact that he did not get “stiffed”. He got paid (more actually) the agreeed upon amount (I realize this is still not 100% confirmed). Stiffed means you don’t get your money at all.

 

Again, I’m not talking about what people think he should have been paid, just the fact that he was in fact paid. Not stiffed.

[jj9000]

Yes, it sounds as though "legally(I friggin love that now we got 100+ attorneys in the herd??)," Kuchar May have covered his arse, substitute YOUR name for Matt Kuchar.

 

Knowing that this was a precedent setting situation, and knowing how Kucher handled it, would you want YOUR name substituted for Kuchar's at this moment, with the game over and the results in??

 

Even knowing that you "held up your end," would you want you name associated with this amateur hour cluster f*** when in the future this occurs and people look back, dredge this up and your name has basically become a verb as in, "whatever ya pay him, just make sure that ya don't KUCH him???"

 

However, legally, you're good????!!!!

 

Stay well my Friends?

RP

 

I appreciate your opinion.

 

However, the flip side to this thinking is simple.

 

Regardless of the amount the Kuchar pays right now...someone will be dissatisfied with the amount. Someone will deem the amount as being "not fair".

 

So, if Kuchar (or whomever else is in this type of situation) caters to the public outcry and mob mentality to get their way (while ignoring all prior Agreements)...where does it end?

 

You folks don't have to agree with it...but...by standing firm and adhering to the pre-negotiated Agreement...Kuchar thwarts additional people coming at him with their hand(s) out...hopeful that the same public outcry will help open Kuchar's wallet for their own benefit.

 

Should the Caddie have been paid more? Maybe. But, that was the whole point of the Agreement prior to Kuchar's first tee shot. The fact that Kuchar hadn't won in several years likely played into the amount he was willing to offer in that upfront arrangement.

 

The fact that Kuchar won has zero bearing on what was agreed to beforehand.

[tbowles411]

Exactly Richard. I said a couple days ago that while he was "technically good", there are ethics involved: What is your name and reputation worth to you? I'm sure he thought he was doing right by the guy, but his latest comments are painting him as a pompous, rich guy and not the guy we know he is. I heard this morning, maybe there was something lost in translation. But at any rate it may not matter what he does. His reputation has taken a body blow.

[Dpavs]

Take a look at the phone you're typing on.

 

So it's OK for Apple or (insert Android here) to outsource the components of your cellphone to China for pennies on the dollar in comparison to US labor...because those folks are located in China as opposed to the USA.

 

When are you going to give up your phone in the name of faux-morality and fairness?

 

The irony is uncanny.

 

Fantastic analogy I really see the irony now.

 

I dunno... isn't think kind of comparing Apple(s) to Alligator "Arms" Fruit?

[ClintDagger]

I feel a lot better about Kuchar after reading the update. He more than met his obligation. Could he have done more? Of course. Would I have done more? Yes. But I have plenty of friends that think “a deal’s a deal” and I know they are good people. Frugal yes, but still good people. I’m much more turned off by the caddy trying to assasinate someone’s character when that person met their obligation. Call Kuchar cheap all you want, but the people calling him a POS that don’t even know him should take a step back.

[WHC888]

fee structure agreed prior to the tournament or not

 

Right here is where your argument falls apart.

 

Prior to the Tournament starting...two parties entered into an Agreement which (at the time) was amenable to both Parties.

 

The fact that Kuchar's won the Tournament has zero bearing on the original Agreement. None.

 

The fact that folks are lashing out at Kuchar's is unfounded. Kuchar lived up to his part of the Agreement (whether you agree with it or not).

my understanding is that $4,000 was the "agreed" fee which is fine, but the fact that Matt feel like he is being more than generous by kicking in a cool $1,000 out of his million plus winnings because the caddie don't usually make that much is absolutely a joke.

[sevenputts]

Don’t get kooched lol

[mosesgolf]

A set rate was agreed upon plus a bonus for a win. It’s the “bonus” that Matt gave out that makes him look like a boner.

[JaNelson38]

"5k is a good week" is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

The comments by Kuchar dont come off well, but I totally understand what he was trying to say, and I think most other rational people do too.

 

I think what this situation is highlighting is the fact that this country has become obsessed with other people's business, especially financial. From what someone else makes compared to you, to what someone else has more than you, etc. We've become a society where everyone is more focused on what everyone else has/does rather than just focusing on themselves. And one thing for sure we as a society have become really good at is spending other people's money.

 

This caddie was paid an agreed amount to do a job. The job was completed. He was paid. The amount he was paid is irrelevant. The amount of money his employer made from the job is irrelevant. As Ive said many times, it was a business transaction done between two adults. Something that happens millions of times every day across the world. Anyone in the business world understands this.

 

Now, does Kuchar come off as "cheap" or "tight" or whatever adjective you want to use? I suppose. But its his money. Money he earned. As long as he fulfilled his agreement with the man he employed, its none of our business how Matt Kuchar spends his money. And I doubt he cares what anyone else thinks. And his comments about someone making $5K being a good week for someone who makes $200 a day is actually on point....he just said it the wrong way We as a society have completely gone off the rails from being grateful for what we have, and instead have turned into a society where its now a bad thing to make a lot of money, because you've must have screwed someone over to get it.

 

If a professional golfer came to a club I worked at and offered me $5K in cash, no strings attached and no matter where he finished, to carry his bag for 4 rounds and offer some insights to the course that he may not otherwise know, I would have jumped at the chance, and I bet most everyone else here would have done the same.

[jerebear21]

so 16K tip is bad for a resort caddy?

[sfiggins]

Tightwads always think they are generous.

[JaNelson38]

Tightwads always think they are generous.

 

And the people who the general public think are "tightwads" often have donated more money to charity and have given more money away than you'd ever see in your lifetime.

[mosesgolf]

Yes, it sounds as though “legally(I friggin love that now we got 100+ attorneys in the herd??),” Kuchar may have covered his arse, substitute YOUR name for Matt Kuchar.

 

Knowing that this was a precedent setting situation, and knowing how Kucher handled it, would you want YOUR name substituted for Kuchar’s at this moment, with the game over and the results in??

 

Even knowing that you “held up your end,” would you want you name associated with this amateur hour cluster f*** when in the future this occurs and people look back, dredge this up and your name has basically become a verb as in, “whatever ya pay him, just make sure that ya don’t KUCH him???”

 

However, legally, you’re good????!!!!

 

KOOOOOCH?

 

Stay well my Friends?

RP

 

Classic. Actually it appears Kuch may have increased future tips at Tour stops. Tour players won’t want reps of being a “Kuch” or getting “Kuched”

[Dpavs]

From the golf.com article here is the most crazy thing I see in the article ...

 

"Kuchar seemed slightly embarrassed that the additional sum had been offered, as he felt his financial obligation to Ortiz was complete. Asked how it came to be that the additional sum was offered, Kuchar said, “That was the agency.” He was referring to Excel Sports Management, which represents him. Kuchar’s agent there is Mark Steinberg, who also represents Tiger Woods and Justin Rose.

Kuchar was asked who would actually pay the money.

 

Kuchar smiled and said, “It’s not coming out of Steinberg’s pocket.” In other words, Kuchar would be paying. He said the additional proffered payment was Steinberg’s effort at damage control."

 

 

 

So the way I read this is that basically Kuchar is coming out and saying... I personally never would have offered the caddie one more single nickel... that was just my peeps trying to do damage control.

 

If nothing else in this whole mess makes him look cheap, to me that certainly does.

[DatSliceDoe]

I think El Tucan should go on "Deal or No Deal" and be given the opportunity to open the $1,000,000 case, and then decline and be given the $5000 case.

[highergr0und]

So the cats fully out of the bag. He made an arrangement that, by any standard (not even tour standards but just human decency standards) was cheap. Then he wins, and he thinks $4k or $5k is fair; words out of his own mouth.

 

Shut the thread down there's no more speculating on facts - kuchar is a POS and that's that.

 

This has nothing to do with hating the rich or making good on a deal; I am amazed at how anyone could view this any other way.

 

They agreed in principle to an arrangement. Kuchar was looking to take advantage of any caddie and save some money, and someone took the hook. The expectation must have been from smiley d-bags outward persona, that if he won $1.3mm the caddie would get something in the realm of what is standard (I.e. Half, 1/4 of the going rate etc). What he didn't know is kuchar is actually a phony cheapskate...

 

Do you know for sure Kuchar was taking advantage or was he offering the same deal as every other player? Do you only think the deal is cheap because golfers are rich? He's already paying more than the market rate, how much more should rich people have to pay for services than everyone else?

 

I'm amazed that you think a deal can be re-negotiated after the fact. I've executed a few bad deals in my life, kicked myself and moved on, only thing is I didn't have a society of keyboard warriors just waiting to pounce on the other party. This caddy is nothing more than a prop for a bunch of people to push an agenda.

[deadsolid...shank]

So, here’s a question. We’ve seen “proper” amounts tossed around here ranging from $10,000 all the way up the the normal 10%. It seems to be that $50,000is the number mentioned the most. So if he had given a 10,20,or 30 thousand dollar bonus, there are still a lot of people that are going to be calling him cheap (or worse).

 

Point is, just like he said himself “you just can’t make everyone happy”.

 

If he had given him $50,000, you know what the next post would be? “ Why should he get less than the normal just because he’s a fill in”. You can all deny that would be the case, but it’s absolutely what would happen.

[dropkicked]

“Man, did you just Kooch the Bartender on that round of 20 shots?!? So freakin’ harsh. We’re never coming back here Bro.”

dam you're Kuch...

[Bunker2Bunker0no]

Now that both sides have "weighed in", here is my fill in the blanks version of the discord.

 

The local caddie was fine with a $3000 base salary, for what he is generally paid $200/day that entails a "generous tip". I'm sure he gets stiffed by cheap resort guests occasionally and that amount is more like $100 or even less some days. So guaranteed $3000 was a good week in his eyes for a day or 2 of practice round/Pro Am and then 2 OR 4 days of tournament play. I'm sure a resort caddie in Mex or any other foreign land, isn't knowledgeable on what the Tour "standards" are for caddie pay and the accompanying "bonus structure" for cuts made, top 10's, 5's and wins. Just like if any of us asked a non-golfer in our household, business or the local bar...they also would have no clue. So I'm sure when Matt said, hey if I get a top 10, I will throw in another $1000, this also sounded great and was agreed too....Again caddie has no knowledge base of Tour norms, so no "hey, these other guys out here would be getting 5% of the pro's paycheck for that top 10" so maybe I should speak up now.

 

Now I'm not defending Matt here, but I'm sure if any of us were in a multi yr victory drought and in process of hiring a local caddie for the week(low expectation for myself), I'm pretty sure WINNING this week wasn"t even in the thought process, much less, let me cover this scenario with this guy.

 

So we have the perfect storm of, local guy agrees to a deal that is pretty good(for him) for the week....more pay than normal, thrill/honor of being involved in a Tour event and the added honor of being on the bag for an established "star" not just some Gillis journeyman. Matt has a relaxed week planned, low expectations, and a deal in place for a guy to carry my bag, clean the clubs, and prob just "stay out of the way."("He did what I expected him to do.") I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, but I'm sure he could have hired any number of established Tour caddies to fill in that week, if he were going in with attitude of "this is a very important tourney for me"... but he was at a resort, playing in an event that isn't very high on importance to a top 10-20 player as it is a Fall event in this wraparound season...so I'm sure it was more of the mindset of hey, this is a relaxed working vacation...and golly gee, what happens...WE WON.

 

Now here is where the problems arise...neither side prob expected this...and sure doesn't soynd like it was discussed in original pay agreement. So with all that goes on with winning, I'm sure getting square with my local caddie wasn't at forefront of his thinking. So after all his winners obligations etc, he gets around to "rounding up cash" to put in the infamous envelope...throws in an extra $1000 for the previously agreed upon top 10 and another $1000 for the "tip" part....we can evaluate that part later. Caddie takes the money and probably in his euphoria of the large moment "being a part of a Tour win", thanks Matt and they part ways.

 

So not knowing what you don't know, caddie prob had a great couple of days celebrating not just the payday but the lifetime memory of a resort caddie being a Tour winning caddie. Then when the questions start flying his way of what are you going to do with $100,000 plus, (what you mean $100,000?????) ...the ensuing firestorm started....

 

So here we are....verbal contract was made and fulfilled on both sides...and technically Matt's $1000 on top of the $4000 even exceeded the agreement. The last 30 pages here cover whether each of us think it is fair to pay $1000 for top 10 and then "tip" $1000 on top of that for the win...so not going there again.

 

I give both guys the benefit of the doubt in the original deal making...caddie didn't know Tour "norms" and took a deal that was acceptable with knowledge on hand...and Matt made a deal with a local caddie thinking he was prob more likely for his normal top 15-30 than a win.

 

Now they are both listening to the wrong people...caddie to Gillis and whoever else helped with his demand letter and turning down $15k....Take the $15k and make case that it was more than we agreed to at time of deal but after learning of typical Tour deals AND the job I performed, I would hope that Mr Kutchar would place more value in our collaboration that week. And Matt is listening to wrong person, HIMSELF....not going to say what fair is, because that is subjective to each of us....but $1000 shouldn't be in your thought process of what is fair in this scenario.

[deadsolid...shank]

So the cats fully out of the bag. He made an arrangement that, by any standard (not even tour standards but just human decency standards) was cheap. Then he wins, and he thinks $4k or $5k is fair; words out of his own mouth.

 

Shut the thread down there's no more speculating on facts - kuchar is a POS and that's that.

 

This has nothing to do with hating the rich or making good on a deal; I am amazed at how anyone could view this any other way.

 

They agreed in principle to an arrangement. Kuchar was looking to take advantage of any caddie and save some money, and someone took the hook. The expectation must have been from smiley d-bags outward persona, that if he won $1.3mm the caddie would get something in the realm of what is standard (I.e. Half, 1/4 of the going rate etc). What he didn't know is kuchar is actually a phony cheapskate...

 

Do you know for sure Kuchar was taking advantage or was he offering the same deal as every other player? Do you only think the deal is cheap because golfers are rich? He's already paying more than the market rate, how much more should rich people have to pay for services than everyone else?

 

I'm amazed that you think a deal can be re-negotiated after the fact. I've executed a few bad deals in my life, kicked myself and moved on, only thing is I didn't have a society of keyboard warriors just waiting to pounce on the other party. This caddy is nothing more than a prop for a bunch of people to push an agenda.

 

Really, we shouldn’t even be responding any more because Soap said he had the final definitive word and the thread should be shut down. Boy, if he had shown up earlier we could have saved 30+ pages of posts.

[eagle1997]

dear matt:

 

 

 

how do you sleep at night?

 

 

 

matt be like:

 

[mosesgolf]

Better to keep mouth shut and have people think your CHEAP rather than Open it and remove all doubt. :D

[jerebear21]

So the cats fully out of the bag. He made an arrangement that, by any standard (not even tour standards but just human decency standards) was cheap. Then he wins, and he thinks $4k or $5k is fair; words out of his own mouth.

 

Shut the thread down there's no more speculating on facts - kuchar is a POS and that's that.

 

This has nothing to do with hating the rich or making good on a deal; I am amazed at how anyone could view this any other way.

 

They agreed in principle to an arrangement. Kuchar was looking to take advantage of any caddie and save some money, and someone took the hook. The expectation must have been from smiley d-bags outward persona, that if he won $1.3mm the caddie would get something in the realm of what is standard (I.e. Half, 1/4 of the going rate etc). What he didn't know is kuchar is actually a phony cheapskate...

 

Do you know for sure Kuchar was taking advantage or was he offering the same deal as every other player? Do you only think the deal is cheap because golfers are rich? He's already paying more than the market rate, how much more should rich people have to pay for services than everyone else?

 

I'm amazed that you think a deal can be re-negotiated after the fact. I've executed a few bad deals in my life, kicked myself and moved on, only thing is I didn't have a society of keyboard warriors just waiting to pounce on the other party. This caddy is nothing more than a prop for a bunch of people to push an agenda.

 

Really, we shouldn’t even be responding any more because Soap said he had the final definitive word and the thread should be shut down. Boy, if he had shown up earlier we could have saved 30+ pages of posts.

 

I hope this thread never dies; opinions are great and I appreciate the passion and most importantly the effort of the page long responses.