El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[Under2hours]

kuchar should have headed this off with the 50000.00 payment as soon as the press got wind of this. This hasn't even made main stream media. Just as soon as it does this is going to go SOUTH really fast for kuchar. Public opinion will drop just as soon as MSM catches this. Would have gone away a month ago when story broke if he had have just paid up. Now I think the press will put him in an unusual spot for a golfer. Especially with it being a minority case. Good luck.

It's hit & my wife (non-golf fan) knows about it.

[lowheel]

fee structure agreed prior to the tournament or not

 

Right here is where your argument falls apart.

 

Prior to the Tournament starting...two parties entered into an Agreement which (at the time) was amenable to both Parties.

 

The fact that Kuchar's won the Tournament has zero bearing on the original Agreement. None.

 

The fact that folks are lashing out at Kuchar's is unfounded. Kuchar lived up to his part of the Agreement (whether you agree with it or not).

But the feels man!! its all about the feels!!

[josepht1010]

kuchar should have headed this off with the 50000.00 payment as soon as the press got wind of this. This hasn't even made main stream media. Just as soon as it does this is going to go SOUTH really fast for kuchar. Public opinion will drop just as soon as MSM catches this. Would have gone away a month ago when story broke if he had have just paid up. Now I think the press will put him in an unusual spot for a golfer. Especially with it being a minority case. Good luck.

 

MSN mainstream? LOL. Anyway, "mainstream" media reported it a month ago and nobody cared and they won't care this time, for whatever someone thinks is better or whatever someone thinks is worse. You think all those "mainstream" reporters aren't glued to the internet looking for clickbait? Bigger and real problems out there for real reporters to work on and that billions of people in the world care about (those mainstream organizations still have to sell ads and get clicks, and likes and shares).

 

 

I think this is going to carry on from here on out. We will have to agree to disagree. "MSM" is MainStreamMedia, not MSN.

[Under2hours]

Now that both sides have "weighed in", here is my fill in the blanks version of the discord.

 

The local caddie was fine with a $3000 base salary, for what he is generally paid $200/day that entails a "generous tip". I'm sure he gets stiffed by cheap resort guests occasionally and that is $100 or even less some days. So guaranteed $3000 was a good week in his eyes for a day or 2 of practice round/Pro Am and then 2 OR 4 days of tournament play. I'm sure a resort caddie in Mex or any other foreign land, isn't knowledgeable on what the Tour "standards" are for caddie pay and the accompanying "bonus structure" for cuts made, top 10's, 5's and wins. Just like if any of us asked a non-golfer in our household, business or the local bar...they also would have no clue. So I'm sure when Matt said, hey if I get a top 10, I will throw in another $1000, this also sounded great and was agreed too....Again with no knowledge base of Tour norms, so no hey, these other guys out here would be getting 5% of the pro's paycheck for that top 10 so maybe I should speak up now.

 

Now I'm not defending Matt here, but I'm sure if any of us were in a multi yr victory drought and in process of hiring a local caddie for the week(low expectation for myself), I'm pretty sure WINNING this week wasn"t even in the thought process in his mind, much less, let me cover this scenario with this guy.

 

So we have the perfect storm of, local guy agrees to a deal that is pretty good(for him) for the week....more pay than normal, thrill/honor of being involved in a Tour event and the added honor of being on the bag for an established "star" not just some Gillis journeyman. Matt has a relaxed week plan, low expectations, and a deal in place for a guy to carry my bag, clean the clubs, and prob just "stay out of the way." I don't mean that in a derogatory manner, but I'm sure he could have hired any number of established Tour caddies to fill in that week... but he was gpingat a resort, event isn't very high on importance being a Fall event in season...so I'm sure it was more of the mindset of hey, this is a relaxed working vacation...and golly gee, what happens...WE WON

 

I posted this on the other thread and I'll go shorter this time around. I don't want to victim center blame, nor necessarily defend Kuch for what appears to be, being a little more than a little cheap. But this is the problem with being privy to the amount of money exchanged that we don't deserve to know. That is private, between them. It appears Kuch offered $15k and it was turned down because El Tucan expected $50k. I have been on the support team of outside sales reps and helped them achieve their yearly budgets which meant they earned their bonuses, anywhere from $5,000-$7,000. It isn't my business to know how much their bonuses are but I knew, so I expected a certain amount when it came to their bonus time. And when I was given a fraction of what I THOUGHT I deserved, I was extremely ungrateful. That is the problem with assuming just because someone else made money, you are entitled to a certain amount of it. Fact is, you are not entitled to any certain amount. I get that it seems like an industry standard and we can hate on Kuch for it, but we don't know how going on a few years of not winning on tour has affected him financially. And it isn't our business to know, but we all assume he is very well off because he has been a pro on tour for a few decades now.

 

Kuch pretty stated it with his callous interview.

 

To paraphrase.

 

"This was a shakedown. If this did not become public, I wouldn't have paid him an extra $.01, and the $15,000 was PR, as I didn't care one bit, as my comments at the Sony indicated & will sleep well"

[sfiggins]

Tightwads always think they are generous.

 

And the people who the general public think are "tightwads" often have donated more money to charity and have given more money away than you'd ever see in your lifetime.

 

Foundations pro athletes set up are often fronts for a means to give family members $$$. Charitable donations are also tax deductions.

 

Go ahead and say that about Tiger’s foundation. I double dog dare you!

 

You read my mind... he wont though

 

Tigers foundation and many others have done a great deal of good. Both for the recipients and for the brand.

[Matt97GT]

 

Why do so many people think it was his responsibility to “do something grand” or something of the sort? That really sums up our world today, if someone else has it, then they should happily give it someone who doesn’t. If he wants to do so fine, but it’s his call.

 

Does anyone take responsibility for themselves anymore?

 

He had the opportunity to do something grand. As an ambassador to the game of golf, which is a global game, my assumption is any PGA "star" would feel like they have responsibility and relish/want to do something in that spot.

 

He chose not to. That's fine, but let's not try to pretend there's no backlash for it.

 

The craziest parts to me are that we are taking about an amount of money that he'd be paying out any other week, so it's not even a discussion of him paying out more than normal. It's a discussion about why did he choose to pay out so much LESS than normal. Secondly, it was a potential PR move that could have made him even more fans and money down the line.

[HitEmTrue]

The caddie would’ve said absolutely nothing, however I and some others would’ve crucified Kucher, lol.

 

So the caddie would have said something.

 

[lowheel]

“5k is a good week” is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

It’s more than out of touch. It’s flat out delusional. If he actually believes what he’s saying it’s a very disturbing snapshot of his world view.

 

Do you think anybody who has that much money has your world view? Its just how it is.

[lowheel]

 

Tigers foundation and many others have done a great deal of good. Both for the recipients and for the brand.

 

So has Kuchars foundation...

[300_Straight]

Title needs to be changed to "El Duped-can speaks out." /thread.

[J13]

"5k is a good week" is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

The comments by Kuchar dont come off well, but I totally understand what he was trying to say, and I think most other rational people do too.

 

I think what this situation is highlighting is the fact that this country has become obsessed with other people's business, especially financial. From what someone else makes compared to you, to what someone else has more than you, etc. We've become a society where everyone is more focused on what everyone else has/does rather than just focusing on themselves. And one thing for sure we as a society have become really good at is spending other people's money.

 

This caddie was paid an agreed amount to do a job. The job was completed. He was paid. The amount he was paid is irrelevant. The amount of money his employer made from the job is irrelevant. As Ive said many times, it was a business transaction done between two adults. Something that happens millions of times every day across the world. Anyone in the business world understands this.

 

Now, does Kuchar come off as "cheap" or "tight" or whatever adjective you want to use? I suppose. But its his money. Money he earned. As long as he fulfilled his agreement with the man he employed, its none of our business how Matt Kuchar spends his money. And I doubt he cares what anyone else thinks. And his comments about someone making $5K being a good week for someone who makes $200 a day is actually on point....he just said it the wrong way We as a society have completely gone off the rails from being grateful for what we have, and instead have turned into a society where its now a bad thing to make a lot of money, because you've must have screwed someone over to get it.

 

If a professional golfer came to a club I worked at and offered me $5K in cash, no strings attached and no matter where he finished, to carry his bag for 4 rounds and offer some insights to the course that he may not otherwise know, I would have jumped at the chance, and I bet most everyone else here would have done the same.

 

 

A millionaire used leverage to secure work at a rate seriously under market value.

 

He's a professional athlete in a global entertainment game/industry.

 

He had the opportunity to do something grand and create an awesome PR story to help the game of golf. A feel good story that fights the recent growing anger towards ultra wealthy in this country.

 

We're only talking a fraction of the money he would have otherwise paid if he had his regular caddie on the bag. He chose to pocket it all instead. It's his choice to live with, but the court of public opinion is going to be very unkind, and will probably cost him way more in potential sponsorship money too. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, I think it was a bad move as an ambassador of the game of a golf.

 

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

[NMBob]

From the golf.com article here is the most crazy thing I see in the article ...

 

"Kuchar seemed slightly embarrassed that the additional sum had been offered, as he felt his financial obligation to Ortiz was complete. Asked how it came to be that the additional sum was offered, Kuchar said, “That was the agency.” He was referring to Excel Sports Management, which represents him. Kuchar’s agent there is Mark Steinberg, who also represents Tiger Woods and Justin Rose.

Kuchar was asked who would actually pay the money.

 

Kuchar smiled and said, “It’s not coming out of Steinberg’s pocket.” In other words, Kuchar would be paying. He said the additional proffered payment was Steinberg’s effort at damage control."

 

 

 

So the way I read this is that basically Kuchar is coming out and saying... I personally never would have offered the caddie one more single nickel... that was just my peeps trying to do damage control.

 

If nothing else in this whole mess makes him look cheap, to me that certainly does.

 

Incredible how few people seemed to have read the article and not see that.

 

Same with the following:

 

$1,000 if Kuchar missed the cut, $2,000 if he made the cut, $3,000 if he had a top-20 and $4,000 if he had a top-10.

 

 

So really the $3,000 was a top 20. He offered the guy $500/day to carry his bag.

 

 

He also caddied the pro am which I recall Tucan saying in some interview, and then did he caddie a practice round on top of that?

[FairwaysToHeaven]

i'd be curious what the reaction from those defending kuchar because "a contract is a contract" would be saying had this been patrick reed, bubba, sergio, or any other player that gets so much flak.

 

I'm also curious if kuchar regrets this at all, but doubt we'll ever know.

 

so if you were kuchar, whats the next move.... stick to your guns and say tucan is lucky he got anything more than his normal weekly wage, or do you offer to make things right, apologize, and make one last offer of 45k.

 

i think the easy answer here is explain why 10% is a ridiculous expectation for a fill in caddie, apologize and mention a more thorough contract should've been negotiated before the tournament, offer 40k and a chance for tucan to defend his title this year on the bag.

 

if tucan demands more, all bets are off.

[bscinstnct]

Tigers foundation and many others have done a great deal of good. Both for the recipients and for the brand.

 

So has Kuchars foundation...

 

The Human Fund?

 

[lowheel]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

lol you cant make this stuff up..

 

[WAB]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn’t according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he’s not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn’t understand what most of us understand. So something is going on “differently” in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn’t or don’t get it? Putting aside “doing the right thing”, the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

[jj9000]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn’t according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he’s not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn’t understand what most of us understand. So something is going on “differently” in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn’t or don’t get it? Putting aside “doing the right thing”, the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

You're right...something else is going on "differently" in his head.

 

It goes as follows (5 words):

 

A Deal is a Deal.

[Forged4ever]

The caddie would’ve said absolutely nothing, however I and some others would’ve crucified Kucher, lol.

So the caddie would have said something.

I was just speaking for the Oakmont Caddies or our Caddies(Pittsburgh Field Club) not speaking out publicly about it.

 

Apologies if I didn’t make that clear?

 

Have a great day?

RP

[LeftDaddy]

I’ve read most of this thread and haven’t seen much mention or asking of this, but what is “standard” for a local caddie arrangement? I read or heard somewhere that what Matt offered would be considered generous based on this standard.

 

And the next question would be “is there a standard for when the player finishes high?” I don’t know the answer to this.

 

I generally agree that this is a bad look for Kuchar, but I also agree that this isn’t a story if he finished 5th, and I also agree that this is none of ours nor Tom Gillis’ business.

 

I’ve also seen many posts saying “I know exactly what I would have done, I would have paid him at least $xk”. I always chuckle when I see that, because people rarely actually do what they say they would have done. None of us knows how we would have acted in this specific situation. We all think we know, but we really don’t.

 

This is a lose-lose situation on both sides. Bad look for Kuch even though he fulfilled his obligation (and I am a fan), and bad look for Tucan because he’s let the wrong people convince him that he deserves more, and bad look for Gillis who is the least likeable person in this whole scenario IMO.

[JaNelson38]

 

 

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

This comment sums up my post earlier to a T about society becoming more and more concerned about other people's business and finances more than their own, and the jealously that comes along with it.

 

Because Kuchar made a ton of money doing what he does for a living, he's greedy and "hoarding". And now even moreso because a business decision he made with a caddie worked out well for him.

 

Its like clockwork.

[jsanatx]

What is this El Tucan guy crying about, he actually got paid $96,871...pesos

Kuch is a Douch

[marmooskapaul]

It’s funny that the Tucan camp keeps predicting Kuchar is going to be a pariah everywhere he goes and anything he endorses is going to tank because “everyone” is outraged when probably 1/3 of those posting on a hardcore golf forum don’t share their outrage. I predict this will soon be forgotten by the casual golfer and general public in short order.

 

Man, some of you guys need to get out and play some golf. This thread would be much smaller if the weather was good.

 

Nope...the urban dictionary has already added the word.."kooched" to it's web site...to stiff someone...or to be stiffed by someone.

[dciccoritti]

"5k is a good week" is an idiotic thing to say. My god Matt.

 

I'd take 5k for 4-6 days of work!

The public sentiment is that Kuchar did Tucan wrong, and Matt saying 5k is a good week for a guy who normally makes $200 is so out of touch. Kuchar seeems to have no idea how the public is viewing this situation.

 

The comments by Kuchar dont come off well, but I totally understand what he was trying to say, and I think most other rational people do too.

 

I think what this situation is highlighting is the fact that this country has become obsessed with other people's business, especially financial. From what someone else makes compared to you, to what someone else has more than you, etc. We've become a society where everyone is more focused on what everyone else has/does rather than just focusing on themselves. And one thing for sure we as a society have become really good at is spending other people's money.

 

This caddie was paid an agreed amount to do a job. The job was completed. He was paid. The amount he was paid is irrelevant. The amount of money his employer made from the job is irrelevant. As Ive said many times, it was a business transaction done between two adults. Something that happens millions of times every day across the world. Anyone in the business world understands this.

 

Now, does Kuchar come off as "cheap" or "tight" or whatever adjective you want to use? I suppose. But its his money. Money he earned. As long as he fulfilled his agreement with the man he employed, its none of our business how Matt Kuchar spends his money. And I doubt he cares what anyone else thinks. And his comments about someone making $5K being a good week for someone who makes $200 a day is actually on point....he just said it the wrong way We as a society have completely gone off the rails from being grateful for what we have, and instead have turned into a society where its now a bad thing to make a lot of money, because you've must have screwed someone over to get it.

 

If a professional golfer came to a club I worked at and offered me $5K in cash, no strings attached and no matter where he finished, to carry his bag for 4 rounds and offer some insights to the course that he may not otherwise know, I would have jumped at the chance, and I bet most everyone else here would have done the same.

 

 

A millionaire used leverage to secure work at a rate seriously under market value.

 

He's a professional athlete in a global entertainment game/industry.

 

He had the opportunity to do something grand and create an awesome PR story to help the game of golf. A feel good story that fights the recent growing anger towards ultra wealthy in this country.

 

We're only talking a fraction of the money he would have otherwise paid if he had his regular caddie on the bag. He chose to pocket it all instead. It's his choice to live with, but the court of public opinion is going to be very unkind, and will probably cost him way more in potential sponsorship money too. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, I think it was a bad move as an ambassador of the game of a golf.

 

This sums it up.

[Oldboy]

Kuch should tee it up this week dressed as the monopoly man with the monocle, top hat and tails.

[ilikegolf26]

Kuchar confirmed chump status with his comments. It's tough to make yourself look that much worse in this situation, and he knocked that one out of the park. I have to question that Kuchar & Co DID actually offer the extra 15k as there were reports that it was actually from the tournament guy as someone here posted many, many pages ago.

 

Luckily Kuchar is paying God knows how much to Steiny for what amounts to PR suicide, and pays Tuc 5k for a windfall of 1.29 million. Sounds right.

This is so stupid. How is the pre-tourney favorite winning the tournament a “windfall?”

 

Kuchar made an offer and the caddie accepted that offer. If he wanted 10% he should have not accepted the offer because it didn’t stipulate 10%. This is very simple.

[stanger37]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn’t according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he’s not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn’t understand what most of us understand. So something is going on “differently” in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn’t or don’t get it? Putting aside “doing the right thing”, the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

He didn't stiff the caddie, he gave him $5,000. Which, if he is correct in that he makes $200 a day, say he works 24 days a month, that is $4,800 a month. Kuch doubled his monthly income. Now, he could have made it absolutely life-changing and maybe another pro would have, so ok, shame on Kuchar. But don't assume you are going to make $50,000 and turn down $15,000 and then complain about $5,000 that you agreed to. He is not entitled to getting an extra bonus. What is Matt "not understanding that most of us understand?" Why is giving someone $50,000 "doing the right thing?" I don't agree with only giving him $5,000 so I am not defending Kuchar's actions and I would like to believe if I was in that situation, I would have been more generous. But none of us debating on here know every single detail of what went down. If it makes everyone feel better by telling yourself that would would have given 10% or whatever amount, feel better about yourself. There is so much assuming and entitlement going on that it is alarming.

[lowheel]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

This comment sums up my post earlier to a T about society becoming more and more concerned about other people's business and finances more than their own, and the jealously that comes along with it.

 

Because Kuchar made a ton of money doing what he does for a living, he's greedy and "hoarding". And now even moreso because a business decision he made with a caddie worked out well for him.

 

Its like clockwork.

 

This is what happens when he had a whole participation trophy generation. Self aggrandizing and self esteem are off the charts but not much else. "its not fair" should be the millennial bumber sticker.

[DavePelz4]

I certainly hope that Crenshaw paid Carl Jackson $10,800 for his 84 Masters win and $39,600 for his 95 Masters win. Anything less would be a travesty.

[puresurfr]

I just read a article on Golf.com. According to the interview, Kuchar agreed to a base sum of 3k and bonus of "up" to 4k. If this was indeed the case, Kuchar only pid 2k of the possible 4k......How was the caddie supposed to make the max 4k bonus ? Not only do I have to win but I need to set the course record and the lowest score ever recorded and induction into the Hall of Fame for max bonus of 4k ???? I would think winning would be enough......Maybe if Matt gave him the 4k bonus from the very start, none of this would have occurred.

[ilikegolf26]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn’t according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he’s not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn’t understand what most of us understand. So something is going on “differently” in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn’t or don’t get it? Putting aside “doing the right thing”, the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

So Matt understands simple contract law and you/others don’t? Good luck to El tucan ever getting a bag in this event again. If I needed a caddie for this event I sure as hell wouldn’t let this guy touch my bag.