El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[bscinstnct]

Kuch should tee it up this week dressed as the monopoly man with the monocle, top hat and tails.

 

Similarities are notable to Kuch and....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[jj9000]

Are we missing the notion that all of this is rooted in Free Market Economics...with basic Supply and Demand being the drivers?

 

If $3K-$5k (or whatever the number) was pre-negotiated...Tucan had the opportunity to decline...and Kuchar would have gone to the next Caddie in line.

 

Ask yourselves if the next Caddie in line would have turned down the pre-negotiated money. If your answer is "Yes" the next Caddie would have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken...and Kuchar would have been forced to offer more pay for Caddie Services.

 

If the answer is "No" the next Caddie would NOT have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken. At that point...Market Rates would have been established at $3K-$5K for the job..

 

Tucan accepted the pre-negotiated amount...and an Agreement was struck.

 

Everything that happens next is irrelevant. The "Deal" had already been struck.

 

Going back and asking for more money after the Services are rendered is fine. Perfectly normal.

 

Expecting more money after the Services are rendered is irrational...and not a part of the original Deal.

 

As I have stated I understand the argument made here is premised on something that has not been established as a fact. That being that there was indeed an agreement for the 3-5K. This is merely an assumption and is not something both parties have indicated to be true. All we really know is that the paid amount was 5K, both parties have clearly said so. But that is it nothing more is really a fact.

 

Precisely why I have "or whatever the number" parenthetically listed above.

 

The actual number has no bearing on the logic within my post.

 

A Deal was struck...otherwise someone other than Tucan would have Caddied for Kuchar that week.

[DFS PFD]

It was absolutely a cheap move by Kuchar, however, Tucan should not be able to exploit him for money through the media when they had an agreement. I backed Kuchar strictly on principle. When we get down to it, yes he should have given him a $50K bonus post victory, but with the way this is unfolding I no longer would.

[cdnglf]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

lol you cant make this stuff up..

 

 

The fact that this guys thinks Kuch is in the top 1% of wealth is pure gold.

 

How much do you think Kuchar is worth?

Dude has made more than 40 million dollars on Tour, and he probably still has the first one.

[micha]

Public figures face public acclaim and scrutiny. Its just the way it goes. Kuch brought this upon himself

[lowheel]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn't according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he's not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn't understand what most of us understand. So something is going on "differently" in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn't or don't get it? Putting aside "doing the right thing", the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

He didn't stiff the caddie, he gave him $5,000. Which, if he is correct in that he makes $200 a day, say he works 24 days a month, that is $4,800 a month. Kuch doubled his monthly income. Now, he could have made it absolutely life-changing and maybe another pro would have, so ok, shame on Kuchar. But don't assume you are going to make $50,000 and turn down $15,000 and then complain about $5,000 that you agreed to. He is not entitled to getting an extra bonus. What is Matt "not understanding that most of us understand?" Why is giving someone $50,000 "doing the right thing?" I don't agree with only giving him $5,000 so I am not defending Kuchar's actions and I would like to believe if I was in that situation, I would have been more generous. But none of us debating on here know every single detail of what went down. If it makes everyone feel better by telling yourself that would would have given 10% or whatever amount, feel better about yourself. There is so much assuming and entitlement going on that it is alarming.

If Kuch gave him $50,000 the crybabies would be whining that he didn't give 10%.

 

 

1200 post in this thread and counting. Not sure I've seen a single one argue for the full 10%.

 

Then you werent reading close enough, there are plenty!! He was suppose to change that mans life!!!

[BlackDiamondPar5]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn't according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he's not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn't understand what most of us understand. So something is going on "differently" in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn't or don't get it? Putting aside "doing the right thing", the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

He didn't stiff the caddie, he gave him $5,000. Which, if he is correct in that he makes $200 a day, say he works 24 days a month, that is $4,800 a month. Kuch doubled his monthly income. Now, he could have made it absolutely life-changing and maybe another pro would have, so ok, shame on Kuchar. But don't assume you are going to make $50,000 and turn down $15,000 and then complain about $5,000 that you agreed to. He is not entitled to getting an extra bonus. What is Matt "not understanding that most of us understand?" Why is giving someone $50,000 "doing the right thing?" I don't agree with only giving him $5,000 so I am not defending Kuchar's actions and I would like to believe if I was in that situation, I would have been more generous. But none of us debating on here know every single detail of what went down. If it makes everyone feel better by telling yourself that would would have given 10% or whatever amount, feel better about yourself. There is so much assuming and entitlement going on that it is alarming.

If Kuch gave him $50,000 the crybabies would be whining that he didn't give 10%.

 

 

1200 post in this thread and counting. Not sure I've seen a single one argue for the full 10%.

Look 3 posts above yours for a starting point.

[lowheel]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

lol you cant make this stuff up..

 

 

The fact that this guys thinks Kuch is in the top 1% of wealth is pure gold.

 

How much do you think Kuchar is worth?

Dude has made more than 40 million dollars on Tour, and he probably still has the first one.

 

So does tiger, who cares? What a man does with his own money is his business.

[DBill]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

lol you cant make this stuff up..

 

 

The fact that this guys thinks Kuch is in the top 1% of wealth is pure gold.

 

How much do you think Kuchar is worth?

Dude has made more than 40 million dollars on Tour, and he probably still has the first one.

 

It's none of my business how much he is worth.

[CasualLie]

Kuchar being who he is. "Mr. Top 10", clearly he was not expecting to win.

 

From Matt:

 

Kuchar said he told Ortiz he would pay him $1,000 if he missed the cut, $2,000 if he made the cut, $3,000 if he had a top-20 and $4,000 if he had a top-10. “The extra $1,000 was, ‘Thank you — it was a great week.’ Those were the terms. He was in agreement with those terms. That’s where I struggle. I don’t know what happened. Someone must have said, ‘You need much more.’”

 

OK, let's put whether he is cheap aside for a moment (and just a moment!), he is a guy with about zero confidence in winning. Using his 2nd grade math, he could have kept going and said $5,000 if I win, but nope, that would mean he feels that is a possible reality...can't have that! So as others have posted, this win was a bit of a surprise (bad bogey by Danny Lee on an easy par 3...dummy).

 

With the caddie formula supplied by Matt, it is just further proof there are not standards when it comes to sub caddies; not surprising, and I am not advocating there should be a standard by the tour - F that.

 

The Sergio example is not a "precedent". It is what Sergio felt he should do for whatever reason. For all we know, his mindset might be F it, might as well make someone happy because that money is just going to get taxed like crazy anyway; better the caddie get it first. What would be interesting to know is what was the conversation / agreement between Sergio and caddie before Thursday? Just for context though, not for "standard".

 

Pretty sure in almost every tournament there is a sub caddie for at least one player. And some of those situations probably have a made cut, maybe even a top 20. But not once before have we read about a local caddie getting "stiffed" or "underpaid" or whatever the peanut gallery wants to label it. So we get treated to some controversy for the first time because two dummies didn't negotiate that well, and an unexpected win became the focus.

 

Still, had it not been for Gillis, we wouldn't be where we are. I'm not patting you on the back Gillis, you are still a DB. And if Bamberger actually new how to report on something, he would spend less time on his inexplicable axe to grind with Matt and more time doing some investigating to see what is it like for local caddies on the average tour stop; maybe get some perspective.

[DBill]

Public figures face public acclaim and scrutiny. Its just the way it goes. Kuch brought this upon himself

 

Going off this, no one should ever like Tiger, dude tore his family apart.

[reelop19]

Fingers Crossed this snowballs into how cheap Tiger is

[Komarms]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

lol you cant make this stuff up..

 

 

The fact that this guys thinks Kuch is in the top 1% of wealth is pure gold.

 

How much do you think Kuchar is worth?

Dude has made more than 40 million dollars on Tour, and he probably still has the first one.

 

So does tiger, who cares? What a man does with his own money is his business.

 

We get it man, you’re on Kuchar’s side.

[BottleCap]

I've read most of this thread and haven't seen much mention or asking of this, but what is "standard" for a local caddie arrangement? I read or heard somewhere that what Matt offered would be considered generous based on this standard.

 

And the next question would be "is there a standard for when the player finishes high?" I don't know the answer to this.

 

I generally agree that this is a bad look for Kuchar, but I also agree that this isn't a story if he finished 5th, and I also agree that this is none of ours nor Tom Gillis' business.

 

I've also seen many posts saying "I know exactly what I would have done, I would have paid him at least $xk". I always chuckle when I see that, because people rarely actually do what they say they would have done. None of us knows how we would have acted in this specific situation. We all think we know, but we really don't.

 

This is a lose-lose situation on both sides. Bad look for Kuch even though he fulfilled his obligation (and I am a fan), and bad look for Tucan because he's let the wrong people convince him that he deserves more, and bad look for Gillis who is the least likeable person in this whole scenario IMO.

 

How does Gillis look bad?

 

Kuchar is the only one that is a bad actor. He took advantage of a person that had little knowledge.

 

Gillis let the world know how slimy Kuchar is. He did everyone a favor.

[Komarms]

I've read most of this thread and haven't seen much mention or asking of this, but what is "standard" for a local caddie arrangement? I read or heard somewhere that what Matt offered would be considered generous based on this standard.

 

And the next question would be "is there a standard for when the player finishes high?" I don't know the answer to this.

 

I generally agree that this is a bad look for Kuchar, but I also agree that this isn't a story if he finished 5th, and I also agree that this is none of ours nor Tom Gillis' business.

 

I've also seen many posts saying "I know exactly what I would have done, I would have paid him at least $xk". I always chuckle when I see that, because people rarely actually do what they say they would have done. None of us knows how we would have acted in this specific situation. We all think we know, but we really don't.

 

This is a lose-lose situation on both sides. Bad look for Kuch even though he fulfilled his obligation (and I am a fan), and bad look for Tucan because he's let the wrong people convince him that he deserves more, and bad look for Gillis who is the least likeable person in this whole scenario IMO.

 

How does Gillis look bad?

 

Kuchar is the only one that is a bad actor. He took advantage of a person that had little knowledge.

 

Gillis let the world know how slimy Kuchar is. He did everyone a favor.

 

I enjoy when PGA tour players call each other out. Not enough of it imo, it adds a bit of grit to the tour. Would love more chirping on and off the course lol

[HitEmTrue]

The caddie would've said absolutely nothing, however I and some others would've crucified Kucher, lol.

So the caddie would have said something.

I was just speaking for the Oakmont Caddies or our Caddies(Pittsburgh Field Club) not speaking out publicly about it.

 

Apologies if I didn't make that clear

 

Have a great day

RP

 

Hi Richard. I knew you meant publicly. I don't see the difference between that, and saying something privately and allowing others to do the "dirty work."

[AceCatKY]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

[Dpavs]

Are we missing the notion that all of this is rooted in Free Market Economics...with basic Supply and Demand being the drivers?

 

If $3K-$5k (or whatever the number) was pre-negotiated...Tucan had the opportunity to decline...and Kuchar would have gone to the next Caddie in line.

 

Ask yourselves if the next Caddie in line would have turned down the pre-negotiated money. If your answer is "Yes" the next Caddie would have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken...and Kuchar would have been forced to offer more pay for Caddie Services.

 

If the answer is "No" the next Caddie would NOT have turned down a pre-negotiated $3K - $5K...the Market would have spoken. At that point...Market Rates would have been established at $3K-$5K for the job..

 

Tucan accepted the pre-negotiated amount...and an Agreement was struck.

 

Everything that happens next is irrelevant. The "Deal" had already been struck.

 

Going back and asking for more money after the Services are rendered is fine. Perfectly normal.

 

Expecting more money after the Services are rendered is irrational...and not a part of the original Deal.

 

As I have stated I understand the argument made here is premised on something that has not been established as a fact. That being that there was indeed an agreement for the 3-5K. This is merely an assumption and is not something both parties have indicated to be true. All we really know is that the paid amount was 5K, both parties have clearly said so. But that is it nothing more is really a fact.

 

Precisely why I have "or whatever the number" parenthetically listed above.

 

The actual number has no bearing on the logic within my post.

 

A Deal was struck...otherwise someone other than Tucan would have Caddied for Kuchar that week.

 

Sorry I missed that! So for the balance of your statement, it would be more correct to say "x" dollars and not "3K-5K" which presumes figures that are not clearly established. Ok, fair enough!

[sailfishchris]

Will be something to see at Bethpage in May. Crowd can be a little unforgiving. Will he get Monty/Sergio treatment?

[spbrooks]

Seems to become a battle of the haves vs. have nots!

Sadly his frugality will probably be ones 1st thought when his name is mentioned.

[PALS-SSA]

Some of you have obviously never worked a tipped job. Sometimes, you get a George. Other times you get stiffed. What you don't do is cry about it. It looks bad and is a great way to get fired.

 

Tucan needs to leverage this now because he's burned every possible future bridge. He was offered another 15k and turned it down, though. Bad form. I'll be surprised if he gets another shot at caddying for a professional. Why would you want someone that creates drama on the bag?

[Under2hours]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

 

If in the US, Kuchar would have ponied a minimum of $50,000.. The $5,000 is because he is a Mexican.

[tbowles411]

This is sad really. Kuch (maybe unbeknownst to him), is being skewered in public opinion. How could this story make national headlines??

[Under2hours]

Seems to become a battle of the haves vs. have nots!

Sadly his frugality will probably be ones 1st thought when his name is mentioned.

Why sad???? He brought this upon himself.

[dropkicked]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

I actually touched on this earlier.. IMO, I truly believe that had this taken place in the US and an american citizen was on the bag, that the compensation would have been more inline with tradition. The full 10%, I am not sure.. But I am certain that the total compensation paid to the rented caddie, would exceed 0.385 %.

[Forged4ever]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on.

Bro.....

 

Hoarding wealth??

 

1% of the richest(which he ain’t close to?)??

 

Ah forget it, lol

 

This one’s on me, however we might be starting to read too much into this, lol

 

For me, it speaks only to one individual who totally mishandled an opportunity to not only do the right thing, and forget negations, pre-tourney agreements yada yada yada, but to also set a precedent that anytime this situation would have arisen the future, and granted it would not be often, however it will arise again and his name, actions and performance could be used as the barometer for the appropriate behavior and action.

 

Bear in mind that there are not too many times in a man’s life when he, whether it be you, me or Matt Kuchar, will have the opportunity to act in such a way that they then set the bar for action, performance or behavior.

 

Whether it be on a local/club level, national level, or in a case such as this, the world’s stage, their actions will set the bar.

 

Kuchar had such an opportunity and not only did he drop the ball, he continued to kick and mishandle it all the way down the field, lol.

 

Trust me, this will become a grad biz school case study in how NOT to handle a similar situation, lol. I say that because I was an adjunct and still am on retainer for case submissions and I’m working on this one as I type this, lol

 

Kuchar has the opportunity, screwed up and apparently has continued to with his follow-up comments.

 

Remember, this has NOTHING to do with any negations, oral contracts, etc, lol

 

Apparently by those, he did things right

 

However there is sometimes a HUGE difference between doing things right versus DOING THE RIGHT THING!!

 

There, Kuchar failed miserably.

 

Not the top 1%~

 

Not the “hoarders”~

 

Matt Kuchar!!

 

For those that diasagree, if he had done the right thing, we wouldn’t have this thread, lol

 

Doing the “right thing”never ever needs defending, rationalizing or excusing and most certainly not 125+ pages on WRX?

 

EVER!!

 

Stay well My Friend?

RP

[cdnglf]

The issue is not whether he was obligated. He wasn't according to the agreement. The issue is that he stiffed the caddie. And he's not a struggling web.com player. He is an established PGA Tour Pro that has made around ~100M in his career between winnings and endorsements. So, what makes this story so perplexing is how/why does this occur? It seems like Matt doesn't understand what most of us understand. So something is going on "differently" in his head. The next question is why the team around him (wife, agent, etc..) didn't or don't get it? Putting aside "doing the right thing", the monetary value of the PR hit will greatly exceed any reasonable payment.

 

He didn't stiff the caddie, he gave him $5,000. Which, if he is correct in that he makes $200 a day, say he works 24 days a month, that is $4,800 a month. Kuch doubled his monthly income. Now, he could have made it absolutely life-changing and maybe another pro would have, so ok, shame on Kuchar. But don't assume you are going to make $50,000 and turn down $15,000 and then complain about $5,000 that you agreed to. He is not entitled to getting an extra bonus. What is Matt "not understanding that most of us understand?" Why is giving someone $50,000 "doing the right thing?" I don't agree with only giving him $5,000 so I am not defending Kuchar's actions and I would like to believe if I was in that situation, I would have been more generous. But none of us debating on here know every single detail of what went down. If it makes everyone feel better by telling yourself that would would have given 10% or whatever amount, feel better about yourself. There is so much assuming and entitlement going on that it is alarming.

If Kuch gave him $50,000 the crybabies would be whining that he didn't give 10%.

 

 

1200 post in this thread and counting. Not sure I've seen a single one argue for the full 10%.

 

Then you werent reading close enough, there are plenty!! He was suppose to change that mans life!!!

 

There are plenty saying $50k or 5%, which presumably would have changed his life.

 

Almost nobody has said 10%.

[BearQ]

The sketchers deal makes so much more sense now

[DON SVO]

I have a question for anyone that might have the answer... did the Tournament Director (or whomever organized using a local caddy for Kuchar/anyone else) have input and/or influence in the pay scale given to the host club’s caddies? If someone wants to answer this I’ll be happy to expound.

[FairwaysToHeaven]

So now hopefully we get to listen to the announcers explain that those chants from the fans aren't actually saying Kooooch! but actual boooooooos.