El Tucan Speaks..... (NO POLITICS)

[RSinSG]

 

Their silence says all I need to know..... I.e. no one supports Kuch, but he's one of their own.

 

That's one possible explanation. I can think of several others.

[Forged4ever]

He didn't stiff the caddie, he gave him $5,000. Which, if he is correct in that he makes $200 a day, say he works 24 days a month, that is $4,800 a month. Kuch doubled his monthly income. Now, he could have made it absolutely life-changing and maybe another pro would have, so ok, shame on Kuchar. But don't assume you are going to make $50,000 and turn down $15,000 and then complain about $5,000 that you agreed to. He is not entitled to getting an extra bonus. What is Matt "not understanding that most of us understand?" Why is giving someone $50,000 "doing the right thing?" I don't agree with only giving him $5,000 so I am not defending Kuchar's actions and I would like to believe if I was in that situation, I would have been more generous. But none of us debating on here know every single detail of what went down. If it makes everyone feel better by telling yourself that would would have given 10% or whatever amount, feel better about yourself. There is so much assuming and entitlement going on that it is alarming.

If Kuch gave him $50,000 the crybabies would be whining that he didn't give 10%.

 

 

1200 post in this thread and counting. Not sure I've seen a single one argue for the full 10%.

 

Then you werent reading close enough, there are plenty!! He was suppose to change that mans life!!!

 

There are plenty saying $50k or 5%, which presumably would have changed his life.

 

Almost nobody has said 10%.

You obviously missed my post(s), lolol?

 

That’s ok, I’m easy to miss?

 

Have a great weekend?

RP

[Forged4ever]

Exactly. This is bigger than Kuchar and bigger than golf. It's about greed and the hoarding of wealth. Its about 1% of the richest people owning more than half of the world's wealth. Kuchar is now the poster boy for this in golf and I will bet the harrassment at tourneys will go on and on and on. Just watch.

 

lol you cant make this stuff up..

 

 

The fact that this guys thinks Kuch is in the top 1% of wealth is pure gold.

 

Ironic that you put a GIF of Jordan who is a notoriously bad ripper and cheapskate.

The Michael GIF was actually Lowheel’s post and not DBill’s?

 

Cheers?

RP

[MK7Golf21]

There is no buts about it, this was very cheap on Kuchars part both in regard to the contract and the tip. This guy didn’t have much negotiation room on the contract so it’s not like he could, there is no way your going to say no either. I mean guy probably thought he would get a fat tip had kuchar won as well. Sounds like this guy had some local green knowledge and helped him win. Don’t think he should have got the full 125,000 that full time caddies get but not 5 grand, lol. When you do something like that you get called a cheapskate

[MSUIRONDAWGS]

Wonder if next week at WGC in Mexico, how much grief Kuchar will face?? That's what I want to know. Guess we shall see!

[Holy Moses]

Twitter saying that when Cejka netted a top-10 finish with Tucan on the bag a few years ago, he only gave Tucan $900 for the week.

 

Turns out that Kuchar terribly overpaid!

[Mukky]

Seems weird I would have just taken the $15k and gone away. Anyway this does reflect so poorly on kuchar. I'm not sure anyone was expecting him to give 10%,but to give $5k originally, then after some pressure offer another $15k is a total joke. This is tax deductible for him the actual cost is probably half what he pays the caddie.

 

It has affected my opinion of kuchar which sucks, I really don't like him anymore.

 

This basically sums up my opinion. I liked Kuchar prior to all this and now I view him as a phony and would only possibly root for him if he was in a playoff against Patrick Reed

[FredWomble]

I was reminded of this issue yesterday evening. Two coworkers and I play together pretty regularly, we haven't discussed this issue, two of us played just a couple of weeks ago and Kuch-Tucan didn't come up once. A fourth friend, who doesn't golf but knows we do, group texted us a link to an article about the latest, headline includes Kuch's quote "You can't make everybody happy'. This is just an anecdote and I have no illusion that this situation will cost Kuchar financially or much more at all. But it does say to me that at least to some degree it's gotten outside the "golf community" and for the audience that has no day-to-day interest in the game (and tour), they just know this guy Matt Kuchar is, as my friend's text said simply this guy is a d*ck. Just found this interesting.

[JohnnyCashForever]

i'd be curious what the reaction from those defending kuchar because "a contract is a contract" would be saying had this been patrick reed, bubba, sergio, or any other player that gets so much flak.

 

I think it's the same ol' same ol'.

 

Some guys have halos. Phil, Freddie, and Koucher come to mind. Whether deserved or not, once a halo is given, it is near impossible to take it away. The fact that this thread is now in the "Heated Topics" section is proof of that.

[braincramp52]

I'd still rather be known as cheap than I would a snitch. I can guarantee you Tom Gillis won't be getting invited to many parties other pros have.

[Under2hours]

We've had all these tipping analogies & yet another way to look at it. Your company (PGA) pays you based 100% commissions and sends all out in 2 person teams with an agreement week to week how one is to split earnings and it is that if out don't perform in the top 50% that week you get nothing with the lead responsible to pay his partner a small weekly stipend. Depending on how successful you are the commissions (pool) are split amongst the top 50% at the end of the week. The lead receives 90%-95% and the commissions based on the success that week and the second gets the remaining 5-10%.

 

This particular week the second is off and you find a replacement for him/her as 2 people are needed to perform the job.

 

Using the Mayakoba payouts in 2018, 10th place $165,000 & winning $1,290,000.

 

The replacement did a great job, but not the regular employee.

 

A properly structured company would not give the person who receives 90-95% of that weeks commissions 99.62% of the commission.

 

They would pay the replacement a fair amount and the employee who was off and had done a great job over all the other weeks/years his share.

 

Just another thought.

[reqq]

https://www.facebook.com/donal.hughes.1/videos/10155483365249623/

[Adbeach321]

What if this is all fake to protect the caddie and his family?

[Dpavs]

A couple more articles...

 

Times Free Press

Hi-Top Golf

 

Has anyone seen one single article that is pro Kuchar in this matter so far ... I'm really curious but doubtful there is one.

 

As someone else indicated could be the case, I am starting to wonder whether he has seriously jeopardized his shot at future endorsements for a while. This could end up costing him much more than the measly amount that would have turned the whole situation 180 degrees around and had him coming out a hero. So even in a good business sense, this is just not smart thinking on his part in my book.

[Forged4ever]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

 

If in the US, Kuchar would have ponied a minimum of $50,000.. The $5,000 is because he is a Mexican.

 

Yeah, that’s fair

Here’s a Pro’s Pro checkin in!!

 

Have a great weekend Brother?

RP

[Man_O_War]

Decline 15k in a nearly third world country because of pride. Gee golly that's f****** stupid. Then publicly address the payment which will no doubt cause him trouble with Mexican authorities and his future as a caddie. Even f****** dumber.

 

nope..this is your folly. Many Third world folks tend to be more principled than money rules everything you. That's why i admire this fella so much.

[stanger37]

Michael Breed brought up a story today that supposedly, Alex Cejka had El Tucan last year and recommended Kuchar to him for this year, and only gave him $900. $5,000 seems real good now. I'll start the thread about bashing Cejka's character now because $5,000 seems pretty good.

[Need4spd]

I know we have all said stupid things that we regretted, but in what friggin universe did he think that his most recent comments were going to make him look like anything other than a white, privileged, elitist, borderline bigot?

[lenman73]

I know people that have been substitute caddies at tournaments near me. While neither were on winning bags, but the amount they got for the week were well below the amount that Matt set up for his guy before it even started. He won, he could have given more, sure, but he didn't have to. For the people saying a sub should have gotten x amount for it because of precedent when I know people that didn't just makes me laugh. And I am walking away liking Matt more. Right or wrong, he is sticking to his guns, and I respect that.

[puttfordoux]

This is a BIG story...when the ESPN sports shows have this as one of their lead stories especially.

 

Golf as a sport is held to a higher standard. Its a double standard when the PGA Tour stresses generosity through its charitable work and one of its own is not so charitable.

 

Yes the individual player does reflect upon the sport as a whole. In the NFL for example you have suspensions for domestic violence even though in the eyes of the law no crime has been committed.

 

Positive PR especially in this age of social media is vital. Not everyone is a Tiger Woods where seemingly because of their immense talent they can somehow overcome their transgressions. Kuchar is not in that protected class, sorry.

[Forged4ever]

The caddie would've said absolutely nothing, however I and some others would've crucified Kucher, lol.

So the caddie would have said something.

I was just speaking for the Oakmont Caddies or our Caddies(Pittsburgh Field Club) not speaking out publicly about it.

 

Apologies if I didn't make that clear?

 

Have a great day?

RP

 

Hi Richard. I knew you meant publicly. I don't see the difference between that, and saying something privately and allowing others to do the "dirty work."

Good morning Bro?

 

That’s on me as I should’ve gone further because while I cannot say definitively that an Oakmont/PFC caddie wouldn’t talk about it privately with their peers(Oakmont & PFC caddies), I do know that they would not take it to members because on a much smaller scale things have happened at both clubs for say, our big annual Invitationals and though there were more than two over the decades, I can think of one at each club where a guest basically stiffed his caddie with the tip for the weekend, which was 3 rounds at Oakmont and 4 at our place.

 

This was brought to my attention at our place by our caddie master, who had heard murmurings and brought the guy in and point blank asked what he received from his golfer(It was $50 for the 4 rounds, where $50/round was the minimum expected) and the kid didn’t wanna talk about it saying that everything was fine because he was afraid of getting canned and then being looked down upon by his fellow caddies.

 

Long story short, the CM came to me and told me, I spoke with the caddie myself and then I went to the member, who had been in the club 3-4 years, I forget exactly, though this was his first big Invitational, though he had played in some one-day Stags.

 

I explained to him what had happened and he was very apologetic and asked if $200 was adequate and I said that would be great and so he wanted to give me the $200 with his apologies to give to the Boy(he was 17yo) and I said that while I would be glad to, I think that it would mean more coming from him and so he approached the caddie and settled the matter the following Saturday morning.

 

So my point is, and apologies for not making it clear, however our caddies, and I know that Oakmont has an even more stringent “line” between their caddies and members than we do, and you would never have a caddie walk-in around moaning, groaning or poppin off, though humans being humans, it would “get out,” a member would hear, and hopefully the situation would be remedied.

 

For those not familiar, when I invite any guest to my club, and unless he’s familiar with our club and more specifically me, I don’t care what club he belongs to cuz some of the smaller clubs do things differently, however I ask him following my invitation if he has ANY questions regarding any part of the weekend, from dress for either evening function to tipping, and from the parking attendant to the locker room attendant to the caddie, and if he said no, I expect him to conduct himself accordingly.

 

In 29 years of invitationals, I’ve never had an awkward situation.

 

I’m sorry if I left the impression that the caddies would chirp privately and the members would handle it publicly cuz that would never happen as even with the members, the majority of the time it’s handled privately and stays there. I know if I’m involved, and even a few times when I wasn’t, I won’t tolerate some arsehole trying to be funny or stand out at the expense of another caddie or member, because sometimes stuff happens and at least what I’ve seen, when informed, the member always does the “right” thing.

 

Unlike matty boy, lol

 

Stay wel Brother?

RP

[ironmikes]

Would this even be a story if the caddie were white and at a course in the US? I doubt it. Would it be a story if Kuchar were a different race? I doubt it. Seems like the narrative that is driving the controversy is "rich white guy stiffs poor Latino guy" or " rich white guy fails to take opportunity to do something special to change the life of poor Latino guy".

 

At the end of the day, both parties are adults and contracted for something. The logic behind criticizing the amount paid to the caddie would be akin to going to a car lot and berating someone who you felt got too good of a deal or didn't pay enough to allow the salesman enough of a commission.

 

Kuch never would have lowballed a white guy at a course in the US. That's something nobody is talking about. Michael Wilbon from Pardon The Interruption just said he talked to two PGA players who were outraged by Kuchar's actions. They're right. Personally, it shocks me that anybody could back Kuchar.

 

 

great points you have there. funny how people skip over some of the details. would love to see some PGA stars speak out , it is the least they should do.

 

Their silence says all I need to know..... I.e. no one supports Kuch, but he's one of their own.

 

 

I agree that pro golfers do not seem to be supporting the actions. just wish somebody would comment the way Brooks called out Sergio.

 

All you need to say is something like hey I think Matt should do the right thing and make ammends.

 

Everybody makes mistakes and most can be fixed , as long as you make a valid attempt to do so.

[soap1984]

People bringing up this straw man argument that 10% is ridiculous, please show me where anyone has said El tucan should get 10%. I haven't seen one post that says this.

 

I would argue that 10% is closer to what should have happened than $5 grand. I do think there is some merit to the racial issue; if this was a white guy in the United States there is 0 chance he does this; he thought he could get away with it and shockingly, other tour pros were so disgusted they outed him and good for them.

[drbonesvt]

Come on Kuchar you’re better than this.....very disappointing

 

FYI not that you are reading this , but the argument of 5k to what the caddie makes per week is bush league

[Forged4ever]

People bringing up this straw man argument that 10% is ridiculous, please show me where anyone has said El tucan should get 10%. I haven't seen one post that says this.

 

I would argue that 10% is closer to what should have happened than $5 grand. I do think there is some merit to the racial issue; if this was a white guy in the United States there is 0 chance he does this; he thought he could get away with it and shockingly, other tour pros were so disgusted they outed him and good for them.

Hi Soap, I hope all’s well?

 

I in fact stated that I believe that he should have been paid the regular Tour rate of 10% for a victory and I believe that I saw another post where a guy also said 10% was appropriate, and I realize that I’m in the vast vast minority however that’s ok, lol

 

I have no problem separating from the herd when necessary?

 

Stay well my Friend and have a great weekend?

RP

[N8dogg2669]

This is a BIG story...when the ESPN sports shows have this as one of their lead stories especially.

 

Golf as a sport is held to a higher standard. Its a double standard when the PGA Tour stresses generosity through its charitable work and one of its own is not so charitable.

 

Yes the individual player does reflect upon the sport as a whole. In the NFL for example you have suspensions for domestic violence even though in the eyes of the law no crime has been committed.

 

Positive PR especially in this age of social media is vital. Not everyone is a Tiger Woods where seemingly because of their immense talent they can somehow overcome their transgressions. Kuchar is not in that protected class, sorry.

 

There is no double standard. This wasn't charity, this was a business deal. One man contracted another man for a set amount of money, to perform a specific task. The task was performed, the fee was paid, and then the guy performing the task felt he was underpaid. But this isn't charity, so I don't see how this is a double standard. This is Kuchar being cheap, and the moral/pc/social media police turning it into Rich White man stiffs poor mexican man. Nothing charity about this.

[N8dogg2669]

People bringing up this straw man argument that 10% is ridiculous, please show me where anyone has said El tucan should get 10%. I haven't seen one post that says this.

 

I would argue that 10% is closer to what should have happened than $5 grand. I do think there is some merit to the racial issue; if this was a white guy in the United States there is 0 chance he does this; he thought he could get away with it and shockingly, other tour pros were so disgusted they outed him and good for them.

 

there are numerous posts in this thread saying he should give the full 10%. Not going to go through 44 pages, but there are in fact people saying he should get the full 10%.

[puttfordoux]

I know people that have been substitute caddies at tournaments near me. While neither were on winning bags, but the amount they got for the week were well below the amount that Matt set up for his guy before it even started. He won, he could have given more, sure, but he didn't have to. For the people saying a sub should have gotten x amount for it because of precedent when I know people that didn't just makes me laugh. And I am walking away liking Matt more. Right or wrong, he is sticking to his guns, and I respect that.

 

The backlash Kuchar is getting because of his decision may ultimately prove he did have to give more.

 

Likability is not the issue here, its integrity. They are two separate issues.

[Forged4ever]

shockingly, other tour pros were so disgusted they outed him and good for them.

Other than the amount given the caddie, this is actually what has disappointed me the most in this whole debacle, and that is, other than the Pro who initially tweeted this, there hasn’t been a peep.

 

A prior post mentioned that apparently two pros voiced their disgust privately to one of the media guys though nothing publicly and with a name behind it.

 

Typical, lmao~

 

The other thing is, where are all of the American caddies????

 

I hear these guys chirpin about other matters however you haven’t even heard a peep outa one of em, anonymous or not, lol!!!

 

If this was an American caddie that had gotten stiffed, do you really believe that there would have been this silence???

 

Nah, that’s the other thing about sheep~

 

When the heat gets turned up, they’re invisible!!

 

? BOOM?

 

NO ONE!!

 

NOTHING!!

 

NO WHERE!!

 

? ?Sheep are an amazing species, lol?

 

Their ability to become invisible and sink into the heard is something to behold ;)

 

Great points Soap?

 

All the Best?

RP

[RhytmEarl]

I think everyone should ask themselves this question; WWAPD? What would Arnold Palmer do?