the tour needs to fix the caddie pay issue

[cdnglf]

I could see the Tour setting some standards to avoid a repeat of this problem in the future. Particularly for the handful of foreign events.

 

Whether or not they _will_ do this, the idea that the Tour _can't_ tell the Players what to do because they are "independent contractors" doesn't make sense.

 

The Tour ultimately is the players, and there is a process the Tour uses to implement rules that all the players have to comply with. Dress code, the PED policy, and the requirement of having a caddie in the first place are all examples of this.

[Fade]

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

 

What happens if the player can't find a replacement caddie that is worth all of that?

 

Also, if the tour doesn't bother with dictating the arrangements between players and regular caddies, why would they bother with doing so for the temps?

[Hawkeye77]

I honestly do not care what caddies make. None of my business. Doesn’t influence my entertainment value in the sport. They are independent contractors, if they don’t feel they are being treated fairly then pick up a different bag. Or find a different occupation.

 

Btw. Most of the regular tour caddies are well taken care of.

just to be clear this isn't about the regular tour caddies, its about the replacement caddies that are required from time to time for various reasons. Should there be a minimum pay percentage that a fill in caddie should make based on the contract/agreement of the regular caddie who is absent that week or weeks?

 

NO.

[cdnglf]

I still haven't figured out why a PGA Touring Pro can't roll out there with a ClicGear push cart...and play golf.

 

If these folks can win with a resort Caddie / their kid / their spouse...I'm pretty sure they can win with a yardage book and a push cart.

 

I asked this in the last thread, but there is a specific rule in the PGA handbook that says they must use a caddy and mentions push carts being forbidden

 

It does seem strange to have that in there. I don't know how it would hurt the tour if a pro's regular caddie was sick or something and he was like "forecast is nice, just gonna push a cart and be alone with my thoughts" (note: his thoughts might be "oh boy, i get to keep this full paycheck baaaaaabyyy")

 

I'm guessing they think it looks more professional

 

Exactly my point.

 

Why are these guys required to fork over 10% pre-tax earnings for something they can do themselves?

 

Why don't they have the choice to hire a Caddie, or push/carry their own clubs if they choose to do so?

 

Seems like an unnecessary tax for some who are completely capable of going it alone.

 

Don't laugh, but... pace of play?

If I'm a Tour Player, do I want to wait for my cheapskate playing partner to rake his own bunkers and do all the other little things a caddie does?

Who is going to tend the flag for him?

[MtlJeff]

Another issue to consider is, beyond the recent "scandal", the caddies HAVE in fact complained that they are not treated well by the tour. They were asking for a percentage of the pensions/their own pensions, greater access to the grounds for their families and themselves etc. I believe there was talk of a union?

 

So again, the tour could tackle the caddy situation by governing it themselves, paying the salaries , giving them a pension and making them tour employees

 

Of course, this would likely hurt the best paid caddies, while helping the majority of them. That is of course the tradeoff, and the crux of so many of the debates

[MtlJeff]

I still haven't figured out why a PGA Touring Pro can't roll out there with a ClicGear push cart...and play golf.

 

If these folks can win with a resort Caddie / their kid / their spouse...I'm pretty sure they can win with a yardage book and a push cart.

 

I asked this in the last thread, but there is a specific rule in the PGA handbook that says they must use a caddy and mentions push carts being forbidden

 

It does seem strange to have that in there. I don't know how it would hurt the tour if a pro's regular caddie was sick or something and he was like "forecast is nice, just gonna push a cart and be alone with my thoughts" (note: his thoughts might be "oh boy, i get to keep this full paycheck baaaaaabyyy")

 

I'm guessing they think it looks more professional

 

Exactly my point.

 

Why are these guys required to fork over 10% pre-tax earnings for something they can do themselves?

 

Why don't they have the choice to hire a Caddie, or push/carry their own clubs if they choose to do so?

 

Seems like an unnecessary tax for some who are completely capable of going it alone.

 

Don't laugh, but... pace of play?

If I'm a Tour Player, do I want to wait for my cheapskate playing partner to rake his own bunkers and do all the other little things a caddie does?

Who is going to tend the flag for him?

 

Hey for that extra 5-10% he's taking home he better rake the damn bunker....And putt with the flag in!

 

Honestly i just think if they are going to mandate caddies, than they should have a policy on it more clear than "pay them promptly"

 

Or.....just say "you're an independent contractor, use a caddy, don't use one....whatever bro" And i want it worded it exactly like that

[wobgon]

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

Why?

[GoGoErky]

So you want the pga or other tours to dictate the pay of an independent contractor who has an employment agreement with another independent contractor?

 

Do they also dictate how a local caddie gets paid compared to a regular tour caddie or a borrowed caddie whose mason guy is off for the week or longer?

 

What about if a player uses a family member for a couple weeks or so while their main caddie vacations or is out recovering from illness or surgery?

no i don't think they should dictate the pay of golfer's contracted caddie, just set guidelines if that caddie doesn't show up and a replacement is required. i don't think it matters who fills in either, pay them the set percentage of your regular caddie pay based on the outcome.

 

The thing is a fill in caddie who is usually another tour caddie does get paid the same as the players regular caddie.

 

What you are still dictating who it how an independent contractor employs another contractor. Local caddies are far different from a fill in caddie in that the course usually either dictate the daily rate or has a suggested rate...same goes for when there is an event st the course like this Mexico tourney. There are places that set the rate they the pro shop/club and caddie has no say.

 

Imo if it came to that and I was a player and my regular caddie couldn’t make a trip I would just go to a buddy or family member and get them to carry the bag and throw some cash their way. Is the your goin to tell me I need to pay a family member the same as a local or tour cadddie?

[GoGoErky]

So you want the pga or other tours to dictate the pay of an independent contractor who has an employment agreement with another independent contractor?

 

Do they also dictate how a local caddie gets paid compared to a regular tour caddie or a borrowed caddie whose mason guy is off for the week or longer?

 

What about if a player uses a family member for a couple weeks or so while their main caddie vacations or is out recovering from illness or surgery?

 

Essentially they could I suppose. I mean look, in the current setup, a guy can lowball caddies because there's nothing stopping him, that led to a big embarrassment to the tour and it's sponsors, and the furthering of the belief that it's athletes are out of touch

 

So what is the solution? If the tour wants to take over caddie pay they can hire the caddies themselves and then let golfers interview and choose them. Purses are taxed in a descending way, and the tour pays the salaries of caddies based on seniority, with predetermined performance bonuses

 

It's an idea...I mean not everyone will like it... but it's no different than how many programs work if the goal is fair pay or what is considered fair pay

 

Imo no one got low balled and if anyone does that’s on them thus the reason they are basically a sub contractor to the player.

 

A local caddie is nowhere near a tour caddie. They had an agreement and the agreement was met. People including Gillis are just upset that a well to go caddie chose not to pay way more than what was agreed to. People behind keyboards like being able to spend other people’s money and telling well off people that are cheap or out of touch because they didn’t do what some consider the right thing based on how a tour caddie gets paid compared to a local caddie.

 

 

[Roadking2003]

Of course, this would likely hurt the best paid caddies, while helping the majority of them. That is of course the tradeoff, and the crux of so many of the debates

 

Which is exactly what happens when you regulate wages.

 

On the other hand, if caddies worked for the PGA Tour, why wouldn't they pay them an hourly wage? If they paid caddies a good labor wage such as $30 per hour, all of the caddies would take a pay cut.

[bscinstnct]

I cant imagine this will be an issue for the foreseeable future.

 

If anything, caddies will probably start to find themselves booked at the Four Seasons with "swag bags" stuffed with Apple gear and baked hams waiting for them.

[Roadking2003]

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

Why?

 

Exactly! What is the problem this thread is trying to solve?

[rangersgoalie]

My rookie year, one of the things I was most uncomfortable with was walking from the parking lot early in the week

To the registration area. I didn’t have a regular caddy, and there were always a number of guys prowling the parking area looking for work. It was a mix, sometimes a very good caddy whose player wasn’t playing that week, a lot of times the same cast of characters scrambling to find work.

This was a long time ago, purses weren’t what they are, and I didn’t have a lot of money. Many times I set up local caddies or kids from the host club to save some money. Pay was what came recommended from the club. Walking the gauntlet became one of my least favorite parts of the week.

When I was out there for a while, I finally got to know a few of the very good caddies who fit my personality. I got better at setting up caddies for the upcoming weeks, and the guys I was able to use, I paid the standard pay back the.

 

I finally found a couple different regulars late in my days, which made life easier.

 

Purses today and the same career, which wasn’t world shattering, I would have hired a full time caddy from home and trained him.

 

[MadGolfer76]

Solution is so easy...

 

[MtlJeff]

So you want the pga or other tours to dictate the pay of an independent contractor who has an employment agreement with another independent contractor?

 

Do they also dictate how a local caddie gets paid compared to a regular tour caddie or a borrowed caddie whose mason guy is off for the week or longer?

 

What about if a player uses a family member for a couple weeks or so while their main caddie vacations or is out recovering from illness or surgery?

 

Essentially they could I suppose. I mean look, in the current setup, a guy can lowball caddies because there's nothing stopping him, that led to a big embarrassment to the tour and it's sponsors, and the furthering of the belief that it's athletes are out of touch

 

So what is the solution? If the tour wants to take over caddie pay they can hire the caddies themselves and then let golfers interview and choose them. Purses are taxed in a descending way, and the tour pays the salaries of caddies based on seniority, with predetermined performance bonuses

 

It's an idea...I mean not everyone will like it... but it's no different than how many programs work if the goal is fair pay or what is considered fair pay

 

Imo no one got low balled and if anyone does that's on them thus the reason they are basically a sub contractor to the player.

 

A local caddie is nowhere near a tour caddie. They had an agreement and the agreement was met. People including Gillis are just upset that a well to go caddie chose not to pay way more than what was agreed to. People behind keyboards like being able to spend other people's money and telling well off people that are cheap or out of touch because they didn't do what some consider the right thing based on how a tour caddie gets paid compared to a local caddie.

 

I'm not really looking to re-debate the Kuchar thing as it's been done to death. But my point was only that i think the tour or his agents likely did intervene, right or wrong, and at the end of the day tell him that yes that is what he did (note, i don't necessarily agree but my opinion on that isn't what matters here)

 

So the tour has a situation where caddies are already unhappy about other things, and now a pay scale debate (somewhat) blows up in their face.

 

I'm just making the point that many in the other threads (about Kuchar and the Caddy unions threads) posted that the tour does very well financially as do the players, so they should take care of everyone. Whatever you think of that (again, my opinion doesn't really matter here) this would be a potential solution to that. Overall their average pay could likely go up, but the top earners would likely make less.

[farmer]

According to my CPA wife, tour pros are not independent contractors, they are self employed. Caddies are employees, and their pay is entirely based on agreement between the employer and employee, just like any other job. Unless the caddies, ALL of the caddies, decided to form a union, there is no practical way to mandate a pay scale. The guys with top bags make more money than the guys Rangers referred to who hang around parking lots, which is pretty much how the world works.

[lumberman2462]

The Tour won’t formally touch caddie compensation...and they shouldn’t because caddies don’t work for the Tour. Since this Kuchar debacle - I can see the Tour issuing informal guidance to prevent another PR mess.

 

Caddies are an integral part of Tour golf. Caddies make golf easier (good caddies anyway) ...if nothing else the player has someone to talk to in what is a pretty solitary sport.

 

I’ve heard stories about how caddies are not treated very well by The Tour or at some events. If true, then it needs to change. In the grand scheme of Tour finances - free food, parking and even tickets for caddie families isn’t going to break anyone.

 

Kuchar will recover from this mess.

[Pooh_Bear]

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

 

I disagree. There should be NO minimum and NO maximum. The caddie / player relationship should be 100% between the caddie and the player.

 

How'd that work out?

[GoGoErky]

So you want the pga or other tours to dictate the pay of an independent contractor who has an employment agreement with another independent contractor?

 

Do they also dictate how a local caddie gets paid compared to a regular tour caddie or a borrowed caddie whose mason guy is off for the week or longer?

 

What about if a player uses a family member for a couple weeks or so while their main caddie vacations or is out recovering from illness or surgery?

 

Essentially they could I suppose. I mean look, in the current setup, a guy can lowball caddies because there's nothing stopping him, that led to a big embarrassment to the tour and it's sponsors, and the furthering of the belief that it's athletes are out of touch

 

So what is the solution? If the tour wants to take over caddie pay they can hire the caddies themselves and then let golfers interview and choose them. Purses are taxed in a descending way, and the tour pays the salaries of caddies based on seniority, with predetermined performance bonuses

 

It's an idea...I mean not everyone will like it... but it's no different than how many programs work if the goal is fair pay or what is considered fair pay

 

Imo no one got low balled and if anyone does that's on them thus the reason they are basically a sub contractor to the player.

 

A local caddie is nowhere near a tour caddie. They had an agreement and the agreement was met. People including Gillis are just upset that a well to go caddie chose not to pay way more than what was agreed to. People behind keyboards like being able to spend other people's money and telling well off people that are cheap or out of touch because they didn't do what some consider the right thing based on how a tour caddie gets paid compared to a local caddie.

 

I'm not really looking to re-debate the Kuchar thing as it's been done to death. But my point was only that i think the tour or his agents likely did intervene, right or wrong, and at the end of the day tell him that yes that is what he did (note, i don't necessarily agree but my opinion on that isn't what matters here)

 

So the tour has a situation where caddies are already unhappy about other things, and now a pay scale debate (somewhat) blows up in their face.

 

I'm just making the point that many in the other threads (about Kuchar and the Caddy unions threads) posted that the tour does very well financially as do the players, so they should take care of everyone. Whatever you think of that (again, my opinion doesn't really matter here) this would be a potential solution to that. Overall their average pay could likely go up, but the top earners would likely make less.

 

Yes the tour does well and so do most of the players and so do the caddies of the better players. They caddies and players are all non pga tour employees and each are individual contractors. If the tour took over the caddie pay that would make them employees of the tour and that changes a lot for both sides.

 

Even if somehow they could regulate the pay top caddies would probably make less and that won’t make them happy and if the players who are playing every week and scraping by will probavky have to pay more to the caddies thus cutting into their pay and that won’t make them happy and could even cost caddies a job or a consistent bag.

 

The caddies could probably form a union but not sure that ends well for them. One situation where peer pressure from the media and a bunch of keyboard warriors imo doesn’t constitute a situation that needs to be fixed especially when it involves a non tour caddie

[duffer987]

Ugh. Just no. The tour doesn't need a don't be cheap law, especially one that covers a global organization that has hundreds of independent contractors/self-employed folks turning up at the organization's sites which are littered all over North America and the world.

 

Since we've already gone to the nth-degree is stupidness with this topic, how about some player drives by the nearest Home Depot or Day Labourer Pickup Zone to that week's event?

On sign-in is some PGA official supposed to do an on the spot E-Verify and background check to make sure the player's story about his caddie checks out and he's exempt from the caddie minimum that week, under section 5 subsection 2 article B: player's "neighbour"?

 

Or maybe the player holds a weekly contest to caddie for him, with all entry fees going to the Human Fund charity? That gets him an exemption under section 5 subsection 3: charitable donations.

 

Or maybe the player starts employing a llama as a caddie. Then we need to get the SPCA and Humane Society involved.

 

Or how about... :slow_en:

[rgk5]

Long been an advocate of carts/range finders. Get rid of the greens encyclopedia as well. And big $ penalties for slow play. If you want a caddie to ride along to keep you company, fine, but hurry it up!

 

But setting lay requirements for caddies??? Ridiculous. Why stop there? Let’s get volunteers paid too!

 

That is it! If caddies got laid, their pay demands could greatly diminish.

[GSDriver]

So you want the pga or other tours to dictate the pay of an independent contractor who has an employment agreement with another independent contractor?

 

Do they also dictate how a local caddie gets paid compared to a regular tour caddie or a borrowed caddie whose mason guy is off for the week or longer?

 

What about if a player uses a family member for a couple weeks or so while their main caddie vacations or is out recovering from illness or surgery?

 

I was surprised to learn aoc played an elitist sport like golf :taunt:

[rangersgoalie]

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

 

I disagree. There should be NO minimum and NO maximum. The caddie / player relationship should be 100% between the caddie and the player.

 

How'd that work out?

 

Seems to work fine......

In all honesty, this event will shine a spotlight on player/caddy employment and potentially create attention re taxes that many do not want to venture to

[the bishop]

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

A solution in search of a problem. Caddies and players are free to negotiate compensation agreements amongst themselves. No need for the Tour to get involved - and I suspect they don't want to anyway.

[Roadking2003]

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

 

I disagree. There should be NO minimum and NO maximum. The caddie / player relationship should be 100% between the caddie and the player.

 

How'd that work out?

 

Wonderful!

[chonkoa]

Another issue to consider is, beyond the recent "scandal", the caddies HAVE in fact complained that they are not treated well by the tour. They were asking for a percentage of the pensions/their own pensions, greater access to the grounds for their families and themselves etc. I believe there was talk of a union?

 

So again, the tour could tackle the caddy situation by governing it themselves, paying the salaries , giving them a pension and making them tour employees

 

Of course, this would likely hurt the best paid caddies, while helping the majority of them. That is of course the tradeoff, and the crux of so many of the debates

This where communal interest rises above individual interest.

I am no proponent of socialism, but there is never a society that succeeds based on individualism but with a balanced dose of communal effort.

[widow-maker]

I don't think the PGA Tour wants anything to do with caddies even remotely being considered employees of the PGA Tour. That opens up Pandora's box. If the Tour wants the caddies to remain Independent Contractors, then they have to be very careful that they don't get involved in regulating them. If you're telling them what to do and what they get paid, then pretty soon they're in court claiming that you're acting as an employer and they're entitled to "x" amount of benefits.

[fowlerscousin]

You can't have caddies as normal employees because caddying at the highest levels is tied in with this whole aspiring pro eco system where people caddy between their mini tour careers, and there are assistant pros involved with caddying

[Krt22]

This is not a Kuchar bashing post... my opinion is that the tour could step in and implement a minimum caddie pay for the week(s) a fill in caddie is employed. Somewhere between 50-75% of the golfers original caddie contract/agreement would be a good starting point including any documented bonuses for a win or even a top ten. That way there is no negotiating and the wage is auto set based on the regular caddie pay.

 

I disagree. There should be NO minimum and NO maximum. The caddie / player relationship should be 100% between the caddie and the player.

 

No no no, we need excessive meddling and such

 

Why even have a cut? Why have such a huge delta between first and last? Why not give everything in the field a decent living wage

 

Who cares about competition, equality and fairness is paramount!

[cliffhanger]

What if the tour acted as a moderator to ensure any deals made were documented prior to the event to stop this from happening in the future... most people are saying that the tour pros will learn from this, i believe that fill in caddies will also learn and speak up i they feel they have been taken advantage of.

 

By the way... great conversation going on here... nice to see it didn't get locked up... at least yet anyway.