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Leaving the pin in fundamentally changes the game!


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I disagree with the pin being a visual aid. Very few putts over 1.5 feet are inside the hole.

 

Yeah that argument was dead before it even left the tee box. You could always have the flag attended, thus giving you a visual aid.

 

but having someone stand there is distracting. haha

 

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As Jack Nicklaus said the pin could be left in when he played in the sixties.....leaving the pin in is nothing new.

 

Such a fundamental change forcing us to take it out, eh? ;)

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I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.

 

1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee. It could have been left in and tended under the old rules. No change here.

 

2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out. And sometimes a putt struck at the right speed will horseshoe around the hole and leave a four footer. Rub of the green.

 

Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.

 

It's insignificant.

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I've only played a couple of rounds this year, but this new rule allowing the pin to remain while putting has altered the game, IMHO, and made it easier.

 

1. It's a visual aid. No different than using alignment sticks on the tee. It could have been left in and tended under the old rules. No change here.

 

2. A few times, the pin has stopped an aggressive putt leaving a tap in instead of a 4-12 footer. Don't think it's kicked any putts out. And sometimes a putt struck at the right speed will horseshoe around the hole and leave a four footer. Rub of the green.

 

Granted, it's a really tiny sample size, but it will be interesting to see how this change plays out.

 

It's insignificant.

 

If it ends up 4 foot away, it wasn’t at the correct speed. The ball does not gain energy on a lip out, even though visually it may appear to.

 

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Yes, I agree with the OP. It fundamentally changed the game back in 1968. Quite unnecessary.

 

It was introduced by the R&A to the benefit of elite players, a very small minority esp. in those days with very little media coverage.

The USGA? Well I couldn't possibly comment.

 

Out of curiosity, I wonder how adding a penalty situation benefits the elite player. Do you have any insight as to that?

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Pin in or out is personal. I chose to pull the pin, but that's what I am used to and don't feel the need to change just because USGA decides otherwise.

It's like dropping the ball from knee height. Doesn't feel right, so I chose to take the drop the old fashion way. If in a tournament and rules stipulate X, I will do X, but otherwise, I will follow what works for me. :beach:

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I played as a single with 3 others yesterday, and they all wanted the pin in on every putt. I can’t get use to it and don’t really want to. I’ll leave it on longer putts, but if it’s a make able putt I want it out. To me it just makes the hole look smaller and I’m of course used to it being out. It got to the point where I felt bad about always asking them to pull it when it was my turn that I just gave up and left it in. I hate the rule. Not to mention they all shot around 90-95 and weren’t making any putts so it wasn’t helping them at all.

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I played as a single with 3 others yesterday, and they all wanted the pin in on every putt. I can't get use to it and don't really want to. I'll leave it on longer putts, but if it's a make able putt I want it out. To me it just makes the hole look smaller and I'm of course used to it being out. It got to the point where I felt bad about always asking them to pull it when it was my turn that I just gave up and left it in. I hate the rule. Not to mention they all shot around 90-95 and weren't making any putts so it wasn't helping them at all.

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Its because the optic helps some and hurts others. Its not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

100%! I totally agree with that. Its a pace of play opportunity and I hope peeps embrace it.

 

There are many other simple things that "aware" player can do to help speed pace of play if they so choose. This rule change is generally a non-factor for pace

 

Yes.

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It’s because the optic helps some and hurts others. It’s not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

100%! I totally agree with that. It’s a pace of play opportunity and I hope peeps embrace it.

 

There are many other simple things that "aware" player can do to help speed pace of play if they so choose. This rule change is generally a non-factor for pace

 

Yes.

 

I think it will generally end up being a non-factor for pace, which is a shame. It could be nice little 5 - 10 minutes boost per round if people got on the same page with it.

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It’s because the optic helps some and hurts others. It’s not a universal help. Or a universal hurt.

100%! I totally agree with that. It’s a pace of play opportunity and I hope peeps embrace it.

 

There are many other simple things that "aware" player can do to help speed pace of play if they so choose. This rule change is generally a non-factor for pace

 

Yes.

 

I think it will generally end up being a non-factor for pace, which is a shame. It could be nice little 5 - 10 minutes boost per round if people got on the same page with it.

I have no problem with the change but fail to see how it could possibly shave 5-10 minutes routinely from a round. I see it helping in isolated cases like player B needs to walk around back of green for a chip or out of sand so player A putts from the front edge with flag in instead of waiting.

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No pro, or person playing a serious tournament, is going to have a flag tended on a 10 foot or less putt. Why? Because if the person tending spaces out or has difficulty removing the flagstick (which has happened to me a few times...albeit on long putts...fortunately the ball missed the hole), the player will incur a significant penalty. No one will risk that.

 

Also, at least for my pea sized brain, having someone next to the hole on a short putt is a visual distraction.

 

As I said in my OP, it's a really small sample size so far for me. But I know I'm putting with much more confidence...and in a game where your mind is perhaps the major factor in your performance, that has to mean something.

I feel like I've seen a few players have the flag tended on pretty short putts, but I can't name specifics. I know I've seen a few caddies leave the flagstick in the hole until what seems like the very last instant. I think they generally pull it loose first, and set it gently back in, so there won't be any chance of the stick being stuck in the hole. After all, those caddies ARE professionals.

Seve did that for a while. All puts had the flagstick tended.

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I have no problem with the change but fail to see how it could possibly shave 5-10 minutes routinely from a round. I see it helping in isolated cases like player B needs to walk around back of green for a chip or out of sand so player A putts from the front edge with flag in instead of waiting.

 

Agreed. I know it speeds things up with no groups in front of you. But, invariably, the seven shots getting to the green is what slows play in the groups I play behind. Those kinds of groups actually seem pretty fast on the greens, pin in or out. In the end, I suppose if my group leaves the pin in, at least we will clear the green a fraction faster so the group behind can hit up sooner while we wait on the next tee.

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Well, what Obee is saying is if it saves just 30 seconds per hole that is 9 minutes per round. I could easily see it saving at least that if everyone left it in.

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Well, what Obee is saying is if it saves just 30 seconds per hole that is 9 minutes per round. I could easily see it saving at least that if everyone left it in.

 

Sure, but the rule doesn't say you have to leave it in.

I don't recall anyone saying you have to. But you could save time.

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Well, what Obee is saying is if it saves just 30 seconds per hole that is 9 minutes per round. I could easily see it saving at least that if everyone left it in.

 

Sure, but the rule doesn't say you have to leave it in.

I don't recall anyone saying you have to. But you could save time.

 

"if everyone left it in"

 

I would hope that if the USGA/R&A expected everyone to leave it in, they would have just changed the rule such that everyone must leave the flag in.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

 

Not as much on the amateur level as much but the pro level for sure. Pros hit the hole a lot. Also, just the alignment of the pin and depth perception helps in gauging the putt much better. Fractions of strokes over four days could be the edge between winning, moving up spots, or missing a cut.

Pros have always had the opportunity to have the pin tended, they won't get any new advantage in this aspect from the rule change. But yes, if a player makes a choice that helps him save fractions, and the other players don't take the same advantage, the change can tilt results a bit, occasionally. It kind of makes you question the guys who won't even consider changing their current habits.

 

Still different when the pin is tended because the pin has to be pulled out and can't be used as a backboard. Also, having a person there little as it may seen can be a distraction of focus. Many pro golf analysts (Faldo) have said they expect to see records broken this year.

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I think it will improve strokes per round. There is definitely many more cases where it helps than hurts. Not a big fan of the rule change, but it is here to stay.

This is one I can't agree with. This will generally help balls that are going too fast, and hit the pin. How many putts fit that criteria? Most putts from 10 feet and beyond don't actually go over the hole. Those won't be assisted. Most putts inside maybe 20 feet are going slow enough that they won't be helped either. I believe any effect on scoring will be a small fraction of one stroke, on average, and many rounds will not be influenced at all. I believe we overestimate the effect because the studies have looked ONLY at putts that hit the flag, and have looked primarily at putts going at the maximum holing speed or faster. No need to study the ones that miss, but they're the majority of all putts.

 

Not as much on the amateur level as much but the pro level for sure. Pros hit the hole a lot. Also, just the alignment of the pin and depth perception helps in gauging the putt much better. Fractions of strokes over four days could be the edge between winning, moving up spots, or missing a cut.

Pros have always had the opportunity to have the pin tended, they won't get any new advantage in this aspect from the rule change. But yes, if a player makes a choice that helps him save fractions, and the other players don't take the same advantage, the change can tilt results a bit, occasionally. It kind of makes you question the guys who won't even consider changing their current habits.

 

Still different when the pin is tended because the pin has to be pulled out and can't be used as a backboard. Also, having a person there little as it may seen can be a distraction of focus. Many pro golf analysts (Faldo) have said they expect to see records broken this year.

Its quite possible that Faldo will be wrong, he's just guessing. My response was to your comment about the pin helping alignment and depth perception, and that will NOT change. The "backstop" issue will, I agree, we just differ on how much difference it will make. When pros miss the hole half the time from 8 feet, on average, I just don't see the flagstick being of significant benefit on many putts. I don't think that adding pace will significantly improve aim, so its the same proportion of putts that will actually hit the flag, and the ones that miss will leave longer second putts. Again, this is my guess, just like Faldo, time will tell if either one of us is correct.

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I have no problem with the change but fail to see how it could possibly shave 5-10 minutes routinely from a round. I see it helping in isolated cases like player B needs to walk around back of green for a chip or out of sand so player A putts from the front edge with flag in instead of waiting.

 

I expect you're not playing much, if at all, this year.

 

I suspect once you start playing you'll see some time savings as I have. Admittedly it's hard to see or quantify since I believe the "30 seconds per hole" is about all it is.

 

Give it a chance.

 

 

Well, what Obee is saying is if it saves just 30 seconds per hole that is 9 minutes per round. I could easily see it saving at least that if everyone left it in.

 

Sure, but the rule doesn't say you have to leave it in.

I don't recall anyone saying you have to. But you could save time.

 

"if everyone left it in"

 

 

As shilgster already pointed out, and YOU yourself highlighted, he never said anyone had to leave it in. :hi:

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As shilgster already pointed out, and YOU yourself highlighted, he never said anyone had to leave it in. :hi:

I would add that I have seen time savings just from the longer putts. Before you had to have someone ready to tend the pin, now you can just go ahead and go.

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