USGA PR team to Justin Thomas: "We need to talk"

[raynorfan1]

At present, the USGA acts as if it is in an invincible position as the only body that could ever write/administer golf rules in the US. That's simply not the case, and the USGA could find that out soon on it's current trajectory with PGA Tour players.

 

It simply is the case. The USGA (together with the R&A) control the four most significant tournaments of the year.

 

They own the Opens. The Masters and PGAA would never stray from the USGA/R&A rules...

 

So as long as the governing bodies de facto rule the biggest events, they run the show.

 

 

Could ever v. currently does.

 

Anything is possible.

 

I suppose technically the Royal and Ancient Golf Club gave up its seat at the table not that long ago.

 

But it's hard to see a path where:

 

(1) some other group takes over the rules; and;

(2) either the USGA/R&A adopt some other group's rules for their events, or the Opens, Masters, and PGAA Championship are replaced by some other set of "major" tournaments.

 

Obviously the latter has historical precedent, with events like the Ams / Western Open declining in stature.

Just like the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc.

 

And let's be clear, those ruling bodies never have any controversies regarding their rules, especially new ones, right?

[ThinkingPlus]

Actually picking a spot to land the ball on the green or fringe is not helping align the player. It is basically like helping read a putt or pick a target behind the green to aim an approach shot. The caddie wasn't aligning his feet in the bunker or the clubface. Also since it is a bunker shot, the direction of the shot is driven much more by swing path and clubface than stance making a stance dependent rule questionable in application. The rule was broken as written, but not broken in intent. Any rule that is generating this many false positives is poorly written.

I know bladehunter and I have gone back and forth over this. the only way to enforce the "intent" of the caddie to align the player is to watch for hand signals or lips moving. The only practical way to stop the caddie alignment process is to stop the caddie from being in a position where he CAN align the player. That is what the rule does, it bans the caddie from being in a specific place at a specific time. Everyone knew about this specific place last year, the only thing that changes was the timing. This particular instance isn't a "false positive", the caddie actually WAS in the wrong spot at the wrong time. I'm positive!.

It was a false positive in the sense that the rule is meant to penalize a player for being aligned by their caddie and that wasn't occurring. However, the rule as written was clearly violated. The caddie was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The shuffling of feet the player did after the caddie moved was apparently not enough to dissuade the ruling.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

A set of PGA Tour Rules wouldn't be a group "taking over the rules", it would be a professional sports league writing and administering the rules under which its competitions are played. Just like the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc. Agree that the Opens wouldn't adopt them. Unsure about the PGA Championship. Masters? Likely not, but who knows? I guess it would depend on what the differences would be.

 

My main point is: The USGA wouldn't be excited if PGA Tour had its own rules. If the USGA was smart, it wouldn't try to be witty and cute in tweeting with players, no matter how wrong the player is. "What are you gonna do about it? We've always made the rules" is a dangerous position to take.

 

Honestly, I don't think the USGA would care if the PGA Tour had its own rules. It would create some weird situations though in terms of qualifying for the Opens (they certainly wouldn't accept "points" generated in events not played under their rules).

 

But, for example, the PGA tour has played events in "scramble" or other unrecognized formats and the USGA really doesn't care.

 

If USGA rules do not govern all play in regular PGA Tour events, it will definitely hurt the ol' bottom line. If it doesn't make all the rules the best play under, it would not be a good thing. But, hey, its lack of self awareness has never ceased to amaze me, so maybe they'd be cool with it. If the USGA didn't accept qualifying "points" for performance on tour, I think some US Open fields would suffer. I think they would be forced to cooperate. There is a lot more money to made on the PGA Tour for a season than in one week in the US Open.

 

All in all, the USGA is acting like it has all the gold, and I categorically disagree.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

 

Just like the NBA, NFL, MLB, NHL, etc.

 

And let's be clear, those ruling bodies never have any controversies regarding their rules, especially new ones, right?

 

ALL THE TIME! But they have control.

[CasualLie]

Thanks-- I'm familiar with the fact that they asked members for input and I wonder how much it weighed on the development of the initial draft and subsequent drafts and final version? Thanks for the info about Nick-- but unless he served on the core committee (I assume they had one) it seems unless they had a Tour Pro on the core committee that it would be a large gap.

 

I'm not sure who was on the respective USGA and R&A Committees.

 

Why should they have a tour pro per se? They're making the rules for everybody not just the 0.0001% that play on tour. Sure, everybody's input is important.

 

I suspect that not many tour pros have all that much interest in the work of refining the rules; they just like to complain when the outcome isn't as they wanted...

 

Which is precisely why the USGA should tread lightly. The premier professional golf tour in the world chooses to adopt USGA rules, and the USGA benefits greatly from that relationship.

 

Oh stop...PGA Tour has little to no interest in bifurcation. Let's take a breather here. The ruling of golf between USGA and R&A dates back to 1897. Not Davis nor JT nor any other sideshows will derail that. And it definitely won't be derailed by keyboard jockeys suffering from cabin fever.

 

Someone research 1984 when the new rule went from drops behind your back to arms out from shoulder. I wasn't golfing then...did the world end?

 

Anyone else besides millenials not capable of dropping the ball from knee height or having the schelp carrying the bag to stand to the side?

[Ashley Schaeffer]

The players? They will do nothing. But if they complain enough, the PGA Tour (you know, the organization that has the big purses and makes millions from and for the players, and has had a pretty meteoric rise since the mid-1990s) might just decide to make its own rules for its own players like every other major professional sports league. You know, to keep the money makers happy and adapt to the fact that the tour has risen so rapidly so quickly in terms of overall popularity in the sports world and revenue potential. The archaic "this is how it's always been" tends to fall by the wayside pretty quickly when billions are involved. This would be bad for the USGA.

 

Won't happen. Whoever makes the rules will be stupid, according to the players and the masses.

 

Golf has a bit more going on, rules wise, than football or basketball. No way to avoid that.

 

Sure. I agree. But the PGA Tour isn't forced to adopt the USGA's rules, especially when the players that make them the big bucks don't respect the USGA.

If the PGA Tour made changes to its rules, do you think the PGAT Players Association would have more input? And do you think unpopular changes would be easier to amend to keep the money makers happy?

I do.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Thanks-- I'm familiar with the fact that they asked members for input and I wonder how much it weighed on the development of the initial draft and subsequent drafts and final version? Thanks for the info about Nick-- but unless he served on the core committee (I assume they had one) it seems unless they had a Tour Pro on the core committee that it would be a large gap.

 

I'm not sure who was on the respective USGA and R&A Committees.

 

Why should they have a tour pro per se? They're making the rules for everybody not just the 0.0001% that play on tour. Sure, everybody's input is important.

 

I suspect that not many tour pros have all that much interest in the work of refining the rules; they just like to complain when the outcome isn't as they wanted...

 

Which is precisely why the USGA should tread lightly. The premier professional golf tour in the world chooses to adopt USGA rules, and the USGA benefits greatly from that relationship.

 

Oh stop...PGA Tour has little to no interest in bifurcation. Let's take a breather here. The ruling of golf between USGA and R&A dates back to 1897. Not Davis nor JT nor any other sideshows will derail that. And it definitely won't be derailed by keyboard jockeys suffering from cabin fever.

 

Someone research 1984 when the new rule went from drops behind your back to arms out from shoulder. I wasn't golfing then...did the world end?

 

Anyone else besides millenials not capable of dropping the ball from knee height or having the schelp carrying the bag to stand to the side?

 

I agree. At present, the tour has no interest in bifurcation. The USGA, more than anyone else, certainly hopes that continues.

[BlackDiamondPar5]

If they wanted support they need to make the process truly open and transparent and over communicate the heck out of it. This is done by working closely with a broad spectrum of people whom not only love the game but make their living playing the game, which should naturally include tour pros past or present. This smells like they rewrote this largely as they wanted and input was perhaps window dressing. BTW I generally am supportive of the changes, but have suspicions about the method.

 

Honestly, I can't imagine how they could have made the process more open and transparent. They wrote drafts, circulated them more than a year in advance, asked for feedback from everybody. And they did change some things in between. IIRC, the original "drop" re-write allowed a drop from any height, which was then changed (based on feedback) to this silly knee-high scenario. I think the flagstick thing also changed a little from draft to implementation.

 

I don't think even Golf Channel would have put the Committee discussions on the air; but I'm not sure how they could have been more transparent.

Possibly they were more transparent than I'm giving them credit. But if so, how did they end up with this knee high drop that seems to be silly for some? I recall at one point it being proposed at ankle high or just off the turf. If the intention was to prevent rolling and redrops then it made sense and is far better than shoulder or knee high. Perhaps the knee height was some compromise?

 

As for the alignment controversy, I don't get the rule at all. The caddie can help a player in so many other ways, but some how alignment assistance is an issue?

[BB28403]

Is there an explanation for why caddies can't assist with lining up?

 

Also anyone have some insight on the process and used to draft the new rules? Were there any PGA tour players, past or present, assisting or formally consulted in the rewrite?

 

It’s an unfair advantage , all alignment should come from the players mind. And strategic thinking. Caddie carries a bag, are inspirational , gives yardage and just reaffirms the players thoughts.

 

At $10,000 a shot, everyone tries to take liberties with the rules and gain every advantage they can. That’s why they complain so much at rules changes, they are just trying to push the boundaries as far as they can for an advantage.

[Shilgy]

 

Actually picking a spot to land the ball on the green or fringe is not helping align the player. It is basically like helping read a putt or pick a target behind the green to aim an approach shot. The caddie wasn't aligning his feet in the bunker or the clubface. Also since it is a bunker shot, the direction of the shot is driven much more by swing path and clubface than stance making a stance dependent rule questionable in application. The rule was broken as written, but not broken in intent. Any rule that is generating this many false positives is poorly written.

 

Yes. This is exactly my argument. There’s a huge difference between helping pick a target and the physical lining up the rule intends to stop.

 

I know you think ( shilgy) I’m picking on the ladies. I’m not. I’m just pointing out the difference. They were havin gcaddies actually align their bodies to the target for a shot. I’ve yet to see an example of anyone on the men’s tours doing that. Ever. And bravo for the ladies. They are actually smarter to take advantage of the rule and not have their egos cause they to not use that advanatage. But it’s that advantage ( or perceived one ) that caused the rule to change.

I'll disagree with you both. Schenk had the caddie line him up to the intended spot. If not they would follow the rule and pick a spot... Have the caddie walk away... Then get into his stance and align his own d*mn self.

But some want to use semantics and say the ladies were getting alignment help and the men are not. You could just as easily do the same as the ladies used to do and say "I'm not getting alignment assistance-just confirmation"!

The new rule wants ALL of the alignment done by the player alone. Do tell the caddie to get out of there and let the player do so. The ladies seen to manage but the men cannot.

[Darth Putter]

USGA Twitter guy has more work....

 

 

 

https://www.golf.com...our-golf-rules/

 

‘New rules are garbage’: Pro calls for PGA Tour to make its own rules

 

On Sunday, Kizzire attacked the caddie-alignment rule change in a tweet, writing, “Caddie accidentally being behind you at some point during your setup resulting in a penalty is asinine.”

 

In response, Landry tweeted that the PGA Tour is a “players tour” and that Tour pros should “fight to have our own rules and only follow the USGA and R&A once a year at our US Open and the Open.”

 

That's the shoe drop I was waiting for.

[Darth Putter]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

And if a split occurs, Joe Public Golfer is more likely to follow what the pros do or the USGA?

[raynorfan1]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

And if a split occurs, Joe Public Golfer is more likely to follow what the pros do or the USGA?

 

Joe Public Golfer is going to continue not following any particular rules.

[CasualLie]

^ Joe Public golfer could not care less about and does not follow rules of any "tour" nor governing body.

[BB28403]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

And if a split occurs, Joe Public Golfer is more likely to follow what the pros do or the USGA?

 

Obviously joe public is not very smart.

[raynorfan1]

The players? They will do nothing. But if they complain enough, the PGA Tour (you know, the organization that has the big purses and makes millions from and for the players, and has had a pretty meteoric rise since the mid-1990s) might just decide to make its own rules for its own players like every other major professional sports league. You know, to keep the money makers happy and adapt to the fact that the tour has risen so rapidly so quickly in terms of overall popularity in the sports world and revenue potential. The archaic "this is how it's always been" tends to fall by the wayside pretty quickly when billions are involved. This would be bad for the USGA.

 

Won't happen. Whoever makes the rules will be stupid, according to the players and the masses.

 

Golf has a bit more going on, rules wise, than football or basketball. No way to avoid that.

 

Sure. I agree. But the PGA Tour isn't forced to adopt the USGA's rules, especially when the players that make them the big bucks don't respect the USGA.

If the PGA Tour made changes to its rules, do you think the PGAT Players Association would have more input? And do you think unpopular changes would be easier to amend to keep the money makers happy?

I do.

 

See, but this is the problem. The PGA Tour is fundamentally owned by the card-carrying players.

 

Any change to the rules inherently helps some players and hurts others. How does Adam Scott feel about it if his fellow players vote to eliminate the long putter? What if a bunch of bad putters get together to convince the PGA Tour cup larger in diameter?

[Ashley Schaeffer]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

And if a split occurs, Joe Public Golfer is more likely to follow what the pros do or the USGA?

 

I think the media firestorm with so many pros saying "Finally!" would probably influence Joe Public Golfer more than the USGA.

The USGA certainly acts like there isn't even a tiny chance of that happening.

But, nobody wonders what iron shafts Mike Davis plays, so to speak.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

The players? They will do nothing. But if they complain enough, the PGA Tour (you know, the organization that has the big purses and makes millions from and for the players, and has had a pretty meteoric rise since the mid-1990s) might just decide to make its own rules for its own players like every other major professional sports league. You know, to keep the money makers happy and adapt to the fact that the tour has risen so rapidly so quickly in terms of overall popularity in the sports world and revenue potential. The archaic "this is how it's always been" tends to fall by the wayside pretty quickly when billions are involved. This would be bad for the USGA.

 

Won't happen. Whoever makes the rules will be stupid, according to the players and the masses.

 

Golf has a bit more going on, rules wise, than football or basketball. No way to avoid that.

 

Sure. I agree. But the PGA Tour isn't forced to adopt the USGA's rules, especially when the players that make them the big bucks don't respect the USGA.

If the PGA Tour made changes to its rules, do you think the PGAT Players Association would have more input? And do you think unpopular changes would be easier to amend to keep the money makers happy?

I do.

 

See, but this is the problem. The PGA Tour is fundamentally owned by the card-carrying players.

 

Any change to the rules inherently helps some players and hurts others. How does Adam Scott feel about it if his fellow players vote to eliminate the long putter? What if a bunch of bad putters get together to convince the PGA Tour cup larger in diameter?

 

Then, thems the rules. As a tour player, you would no longer have a third party who admits it doesn't care as much about your tour as it does about the amateur game making your rules.

[raynorfan1]

The players? They will do nothing. But if they complain enough, the PGA Tour (you know, the organization that has the big purses and makes millions from and for the players, and has had a pretty meteoric rise since the mid-1990s) might just decide to make its own rules for its own players like every other major professional sports league. You know, to keep the money makers happy and adapt to the fact that the tour has risen so rapidly so quickly in terms of overall popularity in the sports world and revenue potential. The archaic "this is how it's always been" tends to fall by the wayside pretty quickly when billions are involved. This would be bad for the USGA.

 

Won't happen. Whoever makes the rules will be stupid, according to the players and the masses.

 

Golf has a bit more going on, rules wise, than football or basketball. No way to avoid that.

 

Sure. I agree. But the PGA Tour isn't forced to adopt the USGA's rules, especially when the players that make them the big bucks don't respect the USGA.

If the PGA Tour made changes to its rules, do you think the PGAT Players Association would have more input? And do you think unpopular changes would be easier to amend to keep the money makers happy?

I do.

 

See, but this is the problem. The PGA Tour is fundamentally owned by the card-carrying players.

 

Any change to the rules inherently helps some players and hurts others. How does Adam Scott feel about it if his fellow players vote to eliminate the long putter? What if a bunch of bad putters get together to convince the PGA Tour cup larger in diameter?

 

Then, thems the rules. As a tour player, you would no longer have a third party who admits it doesn't care as much about your tour as it does about the amateur game making your rules.

 

Yeah, you'd only have your backstabbing competitors trying to make a buck by "improving" the rules to help them.

 

At least with the USGA you have a less biased third party.

[Darth Putter]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

And if a split occurs, Joe Public Golfer is more likely to follow what the pros do or the USGA?

 

Joe Public Golfer is going to continue not following any particular rules.

 

Let's just say that there are some that blunder into following the rules when they hit it in the water.

 

If the PGA Tour player is placing the ball for relief and the USGA says drop it from the knee, what is he more likely to do?

[Darth Putter]

Padraig Harrington and Thomas Bjorn in defense of the new rules.

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/padraig-harrington-thomas-bjorn-come-defense-rule-changes

 

and Breaking News from Jay Monahan...

 

https://www.golfchannel.com/news/jay-monahan-sends-memo-pga-tour-pros-regarding-rules-golf-pushback

[Ashley Schaeffer]

 

 

Yeah, you'd only have your backstabbing competitors trying to make a buck by "improving" the rules to help them.

 

At least with the USGA you have a less biased third party.

 

That assumes a few players, or even a majority of players, would have the final say rather than the PGA Tour itself.

That's not the way it works in every other major pro sports league. As you said, those leagues have rules issues, but they also have control. I'd also argue they have more respect among the players, but that's tough to prove becuase they don't allow other entities to create their rules.

[NevinW]

"This is a collaborative process, one the PGA Tour has been a part of from the beginning, along with all organizations in the world of golf." So much for the idea that the USGA and R&A sprung this on an unsuspecting golf tour without any input from the PGA tour. I seriously doubt that the PGA Tour is going to do its own rules of golf any time in the near future.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Padraig Harrington and Thomas Bjorn in defense of the new rules.

 

https://www.golfchan...se-rule-changes

 

and Breaking News from Jay Monahan...

 

https://www.golfchan...s-golf-pushback

 

The twitter responses on the Monahan memo tell us all we need to know on how Joe Public Golfer would play if the PGA Tour made its own rules.

Not saying the PGA Tour will do so, but I think the USGA should take note.

[raynorfan1]

Yeah, you'd only have your backstabbing competitors trying to make a buck by "improving" the rules to help them.

 

At least with the USGA you have a less biased third party.

 

That assumes a few players, or even a majority of players, would have the final say rather than the PGA Tour itself.

That's not the way it works in every other major pro sports league. As you said, those leagues have rules issues, but they also have control. I'd also argue they have more respect among the players, but that's tough to prove becuase they don't allow other entities to create their rules.

 

Other sports have owners who ultimately make the rules. In the PGA Tour, the players are actually the owners. The "PGA Tour itself" and "a majority of players" actually are exactly the same thing.

[GeorgeHWB]

^ Joe Public golfer could not care less about and does not follow rules of any "tour" nor governing body.

 

I have more faith in Joe Public golfer.

[Ashley Schaeffer]

Yeah, you'd only have your backstabbing competitors trying to make a buck by "improving" the rules to help them.

 

At least with the USGA you have a less biased third party.

 

That assumes a few players, or even a majority of players, would have the final say rather than the PGA Tour itself.

That's not the way it works in every other major pro sports league. As you said, those leagues have rules issues, but they also have control. I'd also argue they have more respect among the players, but that's tough to prove becuase they don't allow other entities to create their rules.

 

Other sports have owners who ultimately make the rules. In the PGA Tour, the players are actually the owners. The "PGA Tour itself" and "a majority of players" actually are exactly the same thing.

I'm not sold on that notion. Assuming arguendo that it's true, then it would be a majority of players rather than an entity that admittedly cares much less about the game the pro players all play.

[Bubb]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

And if a split occurs, Joe Public Golfer is more likely to follow what the pros do or the USGA?

Exactly. And the fact that the rules are widely ignored by golf’s participants speaks poorly of it’s rule making body.

 

Joe Public Golfer is going to continue not following any particular rules.

[Bubb]

The new rules are simple, BUT,

The PGA Tour players don't like them, AND,

The PGA Tour will always be more loyal to the players than it will to the USGA, AND,

The USGA doesn't appear to recognize this.

 

And if a split occurs, Joe Public Golfer is more likely to follow what the pros do or the USGA?

 

Joe Public Golfer is going to continue not following any particular rules.

Exactly. And the fact that the rules are widely ignored by golf’s participants speaks poorly of it’s rule making body.

[BB28403]

PGA tour has owners, the sponsors.