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What are average expenses now. I thought I remembered reading several years back that they figured roughly $50,000 a year for expenses. I would guess that has gone up quite a bit, but just guessing.

 

Depends on player. $40-80k is safe bet for full schedule. Some guys will spend the bare minimum and some spend more than necessary.

 

You could stay with host families and have a friend caddy at a discount for you and spend very little.

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Travel hockey parents would like you to consider their investment.

Deep talent, desire and work ethic is waaaay more important.   Look up all the stories of guys who hit balls in the backyard, garage into mattress, etc.   If you have the game people will back you, t

> @Fairways_and_Greens said: > > @RichieHunt said: > > > > > 2. The player that has marginal golf skills, but has a great mentality to be a Tour player. They have the

What are average expenses now. I thought I remembered reading several years back that they figured roughly $50,000 a year for expenses. I would guess that has gone up quite a bit, but just guessing.

 

Depends on player. $40-80k is safe bet for full schedule. Some guys will spend the bare minimum and some spend more than necessary.

 

You could stay with host families and have a friend caddy at a discount for you and spend very little.

 

I should have been a little more specific. More talking about guys hanging around the cut line for exempt status, or web.com guys. Even most of the web guys have a regular caddie don’t they. I know I did recently get an email from the the new web.com event in Colorado about hosting a pro for the week.


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What are average expenses now. I thought I remembered reading several years back that they figured roughly $50,000 a year for expenses. I would guess that has gone up quite a bit, but just guessing.

 

Depends on player. $40-80k is safe bet for full schedule. Some guys will spend the bare minimum and some spend more than necessary.

 

You could stay with host families and have a friend caddy at a discount for you and spend very little.

 

I should have been a little more specific. More talking about guys hanging around the cut line for exempt status, or web.com guys. Even most of the web guys have a regular caddie don’t they. I know I did recently get an email from the the new web.com event in Colorado about hosting a pro for the week.

 

I was talking Web.com guys. Plenty of guys have a family member, wife/girlfriend or friend caddie for them and pay them less than they would pay a “professional” caddie.

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What are average expenses now. I thought I remembered reading several years back that they figured roughly $50,000 a year for expenses. I would guess that has gone up quite a bit, but just guessing.

 

Depends on player. $40-80k is safe bet for full schedule. Some guys will spend the bare minimum and some spend more than necessary.

 

You could stay with host families and have a friend caddy at a discount for you and spend very little.

 

I should have been a little more specific. More talking about guys hanging around the cut line for exempt status, or web.com guys. Even most of the web guys have a regular caddie don’t they. I know I did recently get an email from the the new web.com event in Colorado about hosting a pro for the week.

 

I was talking Web.com guys. Plenty of guys have a family member, wife/girlfriend or friend caddie for them and pay them less than they would pay a “professional” caddie.

I wasn’t sure about the guys there.


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A. Guys from skid row don’t play golf. Of course thre are tremendous golf talents there but they will never play golf.

B. For working class guys, some do play, after their soccer or hockey career, and if their work careers have turned out fine. Their sons and daughters might have an outside chance of starting playing early.

C. For white collar people without an academical degree, living in a neighbourhood of small houses(transfer that to whatever may be in your home country) a portion of people will start play at an early age. Their kids might start playing early. The parents might have some resouces, might be able to afford time and money to let a child pursue a golfing career, but it will be something odd. Kids are supposed to get a job. And more seldom will the parents have a background of competing, of really taking chances. Work is in the blood. Few people become artists, journalists, entrepeneurs or sports proffessionals.

D. If you come from a background and neighbourhood of wealth or academical success, competing and/or success is nothing strange, mothers will curl you(statistically, yes they will, and more than the fathers) and success is more important than the concept of a ”job”. The probability that a child from this kind of background will succeed as a golf pro is of course very much higher than for children from he other groups.

 

Tiger was something of a mystery to me until I learned that his mother is from a well-to-do family and that it was she that pushed Tiger most. Then Tiger made sense to me. But I still think that the way to success was easier for guys like Jack, Kuch, Spieth and Snedeker. Then there will of course be the odd Billy Horschel.

 

Both Annika, Jesper and Henrik came from success backgrounds.

 

You also have rare enclaves like the panhandle of Florida....weekley, ledger and bubba...

You also have Johnny millers high school team which I don’t think ever lost a team match...i think it had 3 pga tour winners...

Put it this way, they had Johnny Miller at the 2-3 spot behind the us pub Linx winner and the California amateur champion...AT THE SAME TIME...

That school was probably the greatest high school team in history now that I think about it

 

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A. Guys from skid row don't play golf. Of course thre are tremendous golf talents there but they will never play golf.

B. For working class guys, some do play, after their soccer or hockey career, and if their work careers have turned out fine. Their sons and daughters might have an outside chance of starting playing early.

C. For white collar people without an academical degree, living in a neighbourhood of small houses(transfer that to whatever may be in your home country) a portion of people will start play at an early age. Their kids might start playing early. The parents might have some resouces, might be able to afford time and money to let a child pursue a golfing career, but it will be something odd. Kids are supposed to get a job. And more seldom will the parents have a background of competing, of really taking chances. Work is in the blood. Few people become artists, journalists, entrepeneurs or sports proffessionals.

D. If you come from a background and neighbourhood of wealth or academical success, competing and/or success is nothing strange, mothers will curl you(statistically, yes they will, and more than the fathers) and success is more important than the concept of a "job". The probability that a child from this kind of background will succeed as a golf pro is of course very much higher than for children from he other groups.

 

Tiger was something of a mystery to me until I learned that his mother is from a well-to-do family and that it was she that pushed Tiger most. Then Tiger made sense to me. But I still think that the way to success was easier for guys like Jack, Kuch, Spieth and Snedeker. Then there will of course be the odd Billy Horschel.

 

Both Annika, Jesper and Henrik came from success backgrounds.

 

You also have rare enclaves like the panhandle of Florida....weekley, ledger slocum and bubba...

 

Fify.
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Golf has more barriers to entry to play at a high level except for a few other things— like equestrian. Money solves a lot of it, but not all. As someone who was a decent junior player in SoCal growing up, I honestly think there are many players I grew up with who could have made it on tour if they could remove barriers one way or another.

 

I grew up middle class and in golf that is relatively poor. (Again there are exceptions— if a parent is a golf pro and you have access to a golf course all you want.).

 

A relative is a top junior player and they spend a lot — traveling and flying to at least two tournaments or lessons per month, buying a trackman, joining a country club just for him ...

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Yeah playing golf is OK but all the tournaments and coaching and traveling could get real pricey. So yeah coming from money makes sure you have all the resources you need. I guess if you just have decent money you can afford to practice and play a lot. It's the coaching and traveling that would need to be trimmed down a little. So maybe you don't get enough exposure to major tournaments. But getting in to college golf will help a lot it seems. Basically junior golfers would be most expensive right? And then I think realistically being a mini tour pro is even more expensive if you have a family to support. Travel is mandatory and you're playing for a living.

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Define living? You absolutely can pay rent and cover expenses without winning often. And at the minor minor level if you’re not cashing a check almost every event you’re not good enough. The gap is way bigger than most realize and the guys who make it dominate at the lower levels. There’s guys who can’t make cuts on the Web.com level who still can make $70-100k a year playing mini tours here in Florida.

 

Just curious if you averaged say T20-40 for a season that you would make enough money to pay entry fees, travel, hotel/housing, meals and caddie (if you had a full time jock).

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Money doesn't trump talent, but money certainly helps develop the latent talent (inside a person) to come to the surface. Just look at the recent college entrance scandal where money (illegally) played a part (if you they have money, they 'use' money to advance themselves). In golf, (legal) money can enhance a kid's ability by going to those golf academies in lieu of high school (Bradenton, FL; Hank Haney Academy, etc). What's the cost of those....$20,000-$40,000/yr? Who can afford that unless you come from affluence. Even at a lower level of money, you can afford more/better instruction, better equipment/fittings, higher caliber tournaments (AJGA, etc), road travel to those tournaments. The OP posed a question with an obvious answer, imo. That's life, get over it. P.s., when my son played a number of AJGA tournaments, I remember driving 9-hrs to a qualifier or two....and when I mentioned that, some parents said "why didn't you just 'fly'?"; also, when I looked at the cars in the parking lots at the tournaments, my SUV (Explorer) felt like a rowboat against the fleet of Escalades, Denali's , Suburban's that dwarfed it. As a parent, I knew what we were up against.

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Define living? You absolutely can pay rent and cover expenses without winning often. And at the minor minor level if you’re not cashing a check almost every event you’re not good enough. The gap is way bigger than most realize and the guys who make it dominate at the lower levels. There’s guys who can’t make cuts on the Web.com level who still can make $70-100k a year playing mini tours here in Florida.

 

Just curious if you averaged say T20-40 for a season that you would make enough money to pay entry fees, travel, hotel/housing, meals and caddie (if you had a full time jock).

 

That’s making $2,500-$10,000 an event. Add in $30,000 a year in sponsorship money and you easily earn a profit

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Money doesn't trump talent, but money certainly helps develop the latent talent (inside a person) to come to the surface. Just look at the recent college entrance scandal where money (illegally) played a part (if you they have money, they 'use' money to advance themselves). In golf, (legal) money can enhance a kid's ability by going to those golf academies in lieu of high school (Bradenton, FL; Hank Haney Academy, etc). What's the cost of those....$20,000-$40,000/yr? Who can afford that unless you come from affluence. Even at a lower level of money, you can afford more/better instruction, better equipment/fittings, higher caliber tournaments (AJGA, etc), road travel to those tournaments. The OP posed a question with an obvious answer, imo. That's life, get over it. P.s., when my son played a number of AJGA tournaments, I remember driving 9-hrs to a qualifier or two....and when I mentioned that, some parents said "why didn't you just 'fly'?"; also, when I looked at the cars in the parking lots at the tournaments, my SUV (Explorer) felt like a rowboat against the fleet of Escalades, Denali's , Suburban's that dwarfed it. As a parent, I knew what we were up against.

 

Closer to $80k a year. But those places aren’t actually known for producing top talent. All the juniors I teach, except one family, I’d call very blue collar. Junior golf doesn’t have to be very expensive (and I’m talking top 300 on JGS and D1 scholarship players). Most are wasting money unnecessarily

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Money doesn't trump talent, but money certainly helps develop the latent talent (inside a person) to come to the surface. Just look at the recent college entrance scandal where money (illegally) played a part (if you they have money, they 'use' money to advance themselves). In golf, (legal) money can enhance a kid's ability by going to those golf academies in lieu of high school (Bradenton, FL; Hank Haney Academy, etc). What's the cost of those....$20,000-$40,000/yr? Who can afford that unless you come from affluence. Even at a lower level of money, you can afford more/better instruction, better equipment/fittings, higher caliber tournaments (AJGA, etc), road travel to those tournaments. The OP posed a question with an obvious answer, imo. That's life, get over it. P.s., when my son played a number of AJGA tournaments, I remember driving 9-hrs to a qualifier or two....and when I mentioned that, some parents said "why didn't you just 'fly'?"; also, when I looked at the cars in the parking lots at the tournaments, my SUV (Explorer) felt like a rowboat against the fleet of Escalades, Denali's , Suburban's that dwarfed it. As a parent, I knew what we were up against.

 

Closer to $80k a year. But those places aren't actually known for producing top talent. All the juniors I teach, except one family, I'd call very blue collar. Junior golf doesn't have to be very expensive (and I'm talking top 300 on JGS and D1 scholarship players). Most are wasting money unnecessarily

 

what do you charge per lesson hour? I would be curious how you define, "blue collar". Anything under $200k a year?

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Travel hockey parents would like you to consider their investment.

I thought of hockey after my initial post ...

 

Formula 1 and other forms of motorsport make golf pale into insignificance.

 

The guy in charge of team Mercedes toto Wolff said you'll probably need to invest $8m in yourself to become a formula one driver. $1m of that carting when you're a kid/teenager then into gp2 gp3 formula 3...

 

You either need to be rich or have a finanobacker

 

All you need to know about money's influence in sport can be gained by following Formula 1. Lawrence Stroll bankrolls Racing Point (formerly Force India), he wants his son Lance to drive for the team, and a talent like Esteban Ocon is out and relegated to reserve duty for Mercedes.

 

The Netflix F1 series is eye opening for those who don't follow the sport.

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Money doesn't trump talent, but money certainly helps develop the latent talent (inside a person) to come to the surface. Just look at the recent college entrance scandal where money (illegally) played a part (if you they have money, they 'use' money to advance themselves). In golf, (legal) money can enhance a kid's ability by going to those golf academies in lieu of high school (Bradenton, FL; Hank Haney Academy, etc). What's the cost of those....$20,000-$40,000/yr? Who can afford that unless you come from affluence. Even at a lower level of money, you can afford more/better instruction, better equipment/fittings, higher caliber tournaments (AJGA, etc), road travel to those tournaments. The OP posed a question with an obvious answer, imo. That's life, get over it. P.s., when my son played a number of AJGA tournaments, I remember driving 9-hrs to a qualifier or two....and when I mentioned that, some parents said "why didn't you just 'fly'?"; also, when I looked at the cars in the parking lots at the tournaments, my SUV (Explorer) felt like a rowboat against the fleet of Escalades, Denali's , Suburban's that dwarfed it. As a parent, I knew what we were up against.

 

Closer to $80k a year. But those places aren't actually known for producing top talent. All the juniors I teach, except one family, I'd call very blue collar. Junior golf doesn't have to be very expensive (and I'm talking top 300 on JGS and D1 scholarship players). Most are wasting money unnecessarily

 

what do you charge per lesson hour? I would be curious how you define, "blue collar". Anything under $200k a year?

 

I’m not allowed to post what I charge. Easy to look up my junior rate, and it’s fairly low. And no I’m talking about kids with parents who are secretaries, school teachers, Lyft drivers etc. Many of my kids have jobs at a course to pay for tournaments and get free golf privileges. $200k a year is not what I’d consider blue collar

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I was thinking of this at a more Macro level. Look at the top golfers in the world and the country they come from. America is the most wealthy nation in the world, we have the most players on tour by a land slide. The less total wealth a country has the fewer golfers you will see represented on tour given the total number of people who have access to golf at a young age is dramatically different in many other countries

 

With that being said, I don't think you need to have a billionaire father like McNealy. But coming from a family with at least a modest amount of money absolutely helps so you have the ability to play on a regular basis starting at a young age, have the ability to play/travel to Jr tournaments such that you enough exposure to get a D1 scholarship, and then have the ability to essentially not need to support yourself right out of college.

 

Having a silver spoon helps with the access, doesn't help at all with the hunger/drive needed to succeed at the highest level

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Money doesn't trump talent, but money certainly helps develop the latent talent (inside a person) to come to the surface. Just look at the recent college entrance scandal where money (illegally) played a part (if you they have money, they 'use' money to advance themselves). In golf, (legal) money can enhance a kid's ability by going to those golf academies in lieu of high school (Bradenton, FL; Hank Haney Academy, etc). What's the cost of those....$20,000-$40,000/yr? Who can afford that unless you come from affluence. Even at a lower level of money, you can afford more/better instruction, better equipment/fittings, higher caliber tournaments (AJGA, etc), road travel to those tournaments. The OP posed a question with an obvious answer, imo. That's life, get over it. P.s., when my son played a number of AJGA tournaments, I remember driving 9-hrs to a qualifier or two....and when I mentioned that, some parents said "why didn't you just 'fly'?"; also, when I looked at the cars in the parking lots at the tournaments, my SUV (Explorer) felt like a rowboat against the fleet of Escalades, Denali's , Suburban's that dwarfed it. As a parent, I knew what we were up against.

 

Closer to $80k a year. But those places aren't actually known for producing top talent. All the juniors I teach, except one family, I'd call very blue collar. Junior golf doesn't have to be very expensive (and I'm talking top 300 on JGS and D1 scholarship players). Most are wasting money unnecessarily

 

what do you charge per lesson hour? I would be curious how you define, "blue collar". Anything under $200k a year?

 

I'm not allowed to post what I charge. Easy to look up my junior rate, and it's fairly low. And no I'm talking about kids with parents who are secretaries, school teachers, Lyft drivers etc. Many of my kids have jobs at a course to pay for tournaments and get free golf privileges. $200k a year is not what I'd consider blue collar

 

Fair enough. I was not trying to put you on the spot, just trying to separate opinions from definitions. Thank you.

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Such an interesting discussion. Thanks to the OP for the post.

 

I think its so glaringly obvious that money purchases opportunity to allow talent to be fully realized. Of course hard work, mental toughness, emotional support systems, and luck all have a role to play as well.

 

Its convenient for many folks to be in denial about the impact of money though. For people with less, its scary to think of the advantages others have. For people with more, they don't want their hard work and talent discounted.

 

That being said, I do believe that those with talent and determination but limited financial means can still achieve their full potential. Just a lot more barriers and the odds get trickier.

 

We are seeing much greater income stratification in the world due to a variety of factors, and all indications are that this will increase in the years to come. I think we will be dealing with issues of privilege, access, and class more and more. Take the recent college admissions scandal for example. I wish the world were a true meritocracy but it never has been and never will be. We should strive to make it as close as possible though.

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So lots of good points brought up, and I think that if you discount the importance of the almighty dollar you are naive. If we took two 10 year olds with the same everything (drive, motivation, genetic ability, etc.) except bank account the rich kid has the easier path to success (this isn't only golf obviously).

 

I'd be really interested in if any of the state run sports schools (USSR and GDR) from back in the day had traits they looked for in kids that predicted success in a sport like golf. I know they identified kids for olympic sports and then trained the doo doo out of them until a few who survived (not literally, but the program) made it big. Is there a trait like that for golf? maybe hand-eye coordination? If there was, I would bet that that trait would be pretty evenly distributed across the population with standouts at every single socioeconomic group, but we do not see that same ratio at the top levels of sport because of whatever opportunities it takes to get there were not available to everyone equally. I would be willing to put money on >50% of current PGA pros had memberships to a private golf course as a child, whereas I bet less than 5% of the US population are members at a private club.

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I used to be part of a ‘coffee clatch’ group that met for coffee every weekend. One guy who came sporadically, was a sports athletic doctor assoc with the university, when we were discussing a similar topic, asked “what sport is more closely associated with ‘coming from money’ ? I said ‘golf?’, he said nah..... equestrian/equine sports.

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I used to be part of a ‘coffee clatch’ group that met for coffee every weekend. One guy who came sporadically, was a sports athletic doctor assoc with the university, when we were discussing a similar topic, asked “what sport is more closely associated with ‘coming from money’ ? I said ‘golf?’, he said nah..... equestrian/equine sports.

 

depends on what you call equestrian.. Lots of cowboys out there that are not rich.

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I used to be part of a ‘coffee clatch’ group that met for coffee every weekend. One guy who came sporadically, was a sports athletic doctor assoc with the university, when we were discussing a similar topic, asked “what sport is more closely associated with ‘coming from money’ ? I said ‘golf?’, he said nah..... equestrian/equine sports.

 

That’s not a sport! Haha, not one the common man can play anyway.

 

I can go play golf for $20 right now, today.

Hmmm let me go find a horse, and where to make it jump the bars....??

 

My golf clubs never need $10,000 surgery for a bowel obstruction.

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I guess I mostly agree with your thoughts but I don't like the examples you used. Of that entire swath of "wealthy" kids who make it in golf, those two probably worked as hard or harder than most JUST so they wouldn't be thought of as rich kids. In fact, Maverick and his brother shared a bedroom with bunkbeds and had nothing special growing up. With that kind of money, the opposite becomes more the norm. Parents who've made lots of money on their own want the same for their kids. The fact is, that you need SOME money, but not anywhere near McNealy money. It's more like putting a kid through school for 12 years instead of four but the good news is that most of them end up at a D1 golf school with scholarships so it all shakes out ok. I'm not even sure if McNealy had a scholarship at Stanford. He was a freshman walk-on before having an amazing freshman year.

While the McNeal boys shared a bedroom, the house is a mansion and the estate has its own golf holes and ice rink. I’m not sure it’s exactly the way you presented. House was up for sale last year. Probably still is given the asking price which I think was approaching 100 million.

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I guess I mostly agree with your thoughts but I don't like the examples you used. Of that entire swath of "wealthy" kids who make it in golf, those two probably worked as hard or harder than most JUST so they wouldn't be thought of as rich kids. In fact, Maverick and his brother shared a bedroom with bunkbeds and had nothing special growing up. With that kind of money, the opposite becomes more the norm. Parents who've made lots of money on their own want the same for their kids. The fact is, that you need SOME money, but not anywhere near McNealy money. It's more like putting a kid through school for 12 years instead of four but the good news is that most of them end up at a D1 golf school with scholarships so it all shakes out ok. I'm not even sure if McNealy had a scholarship at Stanford. He was a freshman walk-on before having an amazing freshman year.

While the McNeal boys shared a bedroom, the house is a mansion and the estate has its own golf holes and ice rink. I'm not sure it's exactly the way you presented. House was up for sale last year. Probably still is given the asking price which I think was approaching 100 million.

 

Clearly the poster did not read my post earlier with the below link. Wish I had grown up with "nothing special." I'd imagine that riding in the back of the plane meant sitting in the rear seats on the GV...

 

https://brobible.com/success/article/dad-golfer-maverick-mcnealy-selling-estate/

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One more thing...people say Jack didn't grow up with wealth...I guess it's all relative, especially these days, but here was an article about his "range ball fees" at the country club where he learned to play the game. FWIW, $3300 was the average ANNUAL income in 1950...so $300 was a boatload of cash back then.

 

https://www.golf.com/news/2019/03/13/jack-nicklaus-father-practice-range-bills/

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One more thing...people say Jack didn't grow up with wealth...I guess it's all relative, especially these days, but here was an article about his "range ball fees" at the country club where he learned to play the game. FWIW, $3300 was the average ANNUAL income in 1950...so $300 was a boatload of cash back then.

 

https://www.golf.com/news/2019/03/13/jack-nicklaus-father-practice-range-bills/

 

If you believe that story, I have a bridge I can sell ya. Jack, is great. But take his stories and lessons with a grain of salt. He uses a psychology that few understand but it's a good amount of smoke and mirrors at the top.

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I guess I mostly agree with your thoughts but I don't like the examples you used. Of that entire swath of "wealthy" kids who make it in golf, those two probably worked as hard or harder than most JUST so they wouldn't be thought of as rich kids. In fact, Maverick and his brother shared a bedroom with bunkbeds and had nothing special growing up. With that kind of money, the opposite becomes more the norm. Parents who've made lots of money on their own want the same for their kids. The fact is, that you need SOME money, but not anywhere near McNealy money. It's more like putting a kid through school for 12 years instead of four but the good news is that most of them end up at a D1 golf school with scholarships so it all shakes out ok. I'm not even sure if McNealy had a scholarship at Stanford. He was a freshman walk-on before having an amazing freshman year.

While the McNeal boys shared a bedroom, the house is a mansion and the estate has its own golf holes and ice rink. I’m not sure it’s exactly the way you presented. House was up for sale last year. Probably still is given the asking price which I think was approaching 100 million.

 

No doubt. I would be interested to know the square footage of the “shared” bedroom. And what amenities it was equipped with. Bedroom was probably bigger than a lot of people’s entire homes.


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I guess I mostly agree with your thoughts but I don't like the examples you used. Of that entire swath of "wealthy" kids who make it in golf, those two probably worked as hard or harder than most JUST so they wouldn't be thought of as rich kids. In fact, Maverick and his brother shared a bedroom with bunkbeds and had nothing special growing up. With that kind of money, the opposite becomes more the norm. Parents who've made lots of money on their own want the same for their kids. The fact is, that you need SOME money, but not anywhere near McNealy money. It's more like putting a kid through school for 12 years instead of four but the good news is that most of them end up at a D1 golf school with scholarships so it all shakes out ok. I'm not even sure if McNealy had a scholarship at Stanford. He was a freshman walk-on before having an amazing freshman year.

While the McNeal boys shared a bedroom, the house is a mansion and the estate has its own golf holes and ice rink. I’m not sure it’s exactly the way you presented. House was up for sale last year. Probably still is given the asking price which I think was approaching 100 million.

 

No doubt. I would be interested to know the square footage of the “shared” bedroom. And what amenities it was equipped with. Bedroom was probably bigger than a lot of people’s entire homes.

 

Yep. The best is Maverick stating his dad was going to make him pay rent if he hung around. Some great life lesson. LMAO. Dude you couldn't pay the rent on his storage shed.

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