My Experience Gaming Blades as a Mid-High Handicapper

[revanant]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> > So, I thought that video from Mark Crossfield is pretty interesting, and his results echo what I tend to see when I put my AP1 up against my MP-4. Namely, he hits his 718 CB consistently well around the 3 minute mark, and when he shifts over to the AP1 at around the 4 minute mark, the quality of his strike and dispersion goes down. He has to take more shots with the AP1 to get usable results, and his AP1 hits are dropping farther back on mishits. He also makes the point that he tends to prefer to miss short with his irons. : )

> >

> > At around the 9 minute mark, he starts to review the data. When he doesn’t pull out the bad shots, the dispersion on the AP1 6 iron is a fair amount worse and the AP1 is on average 5 yards shorter than the CB.

> >

> > Mark makes the point that the difference is more likely his fault, than something to do with the club. In theory, he’s right—both he and I should be able to get great and consistent shots from any iron. But, if for whatever reason, Mark finds that something about the mix of his swing, his mindset, and the club continues to provide more consistent results with the CB, as I have been finding when I put my MP-4s against my AP1s, there’s a point where I would simply leave the 5 iron CB in the bag and see if it actually hurts me, or if I’m actually a better and more consistent player with the 5 iron, despite common wisdom saying the AP1 6 iron should give me more ball speed/height/forgiveness.

> >

> > Hence, why I’m rolling with my MP-4s. If/when I find they hold my game back rather than improve my consistency, I’ll go back on the hunt for the perfect iron. But so long as I like looking down at them, feel confident swinging them, and continue to get consistent results, I’ll be keeping them in play.

> >

>

> I can respect what he's trying to do. I think he's clever in assessing what sort of lie he thinks he's going to often get when he's 185-200 out. It's good to try and find a club that will give you some versatiity from that distance.

>

> But I cringe when I watch people ignore the primary drawback of combo sets. It can be a set with MBs and CBs or a set with CBs and some sort of GI club. Whatever the case, you're asking yourself to consistently hit the ball well with MULTIPLE clubs that are DIFFERENT.

>

> In a world game where small changes matter, that is often a horrible idea.

>

> I had the same problem with hybrids in the bag. While they can ultimately hit it higher and a bit further than my 3-iron, I have to adjust for them and often don't do that reliably because I don't practice each and every day.

>

> Finding the optimal set is about practicality. I highly doubt somebody is going to be able to carry a bunch of CBs than then pull out an AP1 or AP2 and hit it as well as they'd like on the first swing.

>

> That video shows precisely how overly-analytical golfers who obsess about this stuff often shoot themselves in the foot trying to get too cute.

>

> He isn't showing that CBs are better/worse than AP-whatevers. He's showing that you can't just automatically transition from one to the other in the moment.

 

Went back and read this recently. I agree with this—I think there’s a lot to be said for having a uniform look between irons. I also think it's part of the reason I struggle a bit with driver as a high handicap. It's the most different club/swing in my bag. It's probably why I favor 3w and 5w—it’s easier mentally to make a sweeping swing that catches the ball in the middle of my arc from a small tee, than to hit up on the ball from a taller tee. I hit the sim recently and the club speed on my 41 inch 5 wood was coming out at 93 mph. My longer driver never gets above 90 mph—so maybe I could use a shorter shaft?

 

That being said, I’ve put a bit of practice in and it looks like I’ve ironed out my push/slice—which was the single worst part of my golf game. I wish I was hitting longer, but maybe in time. If I can avoid a major directional miss, however, I’ll save a lot of strokes. : )

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @Exactice808 said:

> ...he would NOT leave himself a 50 yards shot. MUCH like some may NOT want a 5 yard shot compared to a 10 yard... for whatever reason in specific to ones personal game.

 

That video does not help your case.

 

DJ is explaining how he uses 'pet' distances within his wedge game.

 

Regardless of what pet distance he prefers for a given wedge shot, he has to lay-up to that distance. When he does so he's trying to get as close as possible to that pet distance.

 

If he misses that pet distance, I would assume he wants to at least get as close as possible to his intended pet distance, no?

 

> @Exactice808 said:

> AGAIN for you to apply your opinions as UNIVERSAL and it applies to all's ones game is my contention with you. YOUR opinions should be shared experiences equal to my opinion no better or no worse to allow another person onlooking to take it into account and make their OWN finalized decisions. NEITHER of our experiences are wrong.

 

This isn't about opinions. Look at what I just wrote above. I had to _correct_ you because you misunderstood what DJ was saying. Worse yet, you continue to get things wrong. You cry foul when people try to show you the error of your ways. And you continue to tirelessly argue a case based on faulty logic.

 

At some point, the world just can't help you, bro.

 

When you get something wrong and someone takes time to clarify it for you, the appropriate response is "thank you." Instead, you talk about how you're being attacked.

 

Again, what else can people do but try and help?

 

When you took spelling tests in grade school, did you accuse your teachers of attacking you when you didn't get an A+? That's what you're doing here.

 

 

[revanant]

> @gbartko said:

> i have it on good authority that ping hired the same team that covered up the jfk assassination, 9/11 and the frozen envelope in the 1985 nba draft to cover up why they won't make a true blade as well as produce the bulk of their marketing materials.

>

> 

>

 

Technically, they might have fired that team. Looks like a forged blade is in the works from Ping. : )

 

https://www.golf.com/gear/2018/12/21/ping-blueprint-forged-irons-hollow-construction/

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/1736296/2019-ping-blueprint-irons-new-in-hand-photos/p1

[chisag]

> @Bigmean said:

> You all refuse to acknowledge that in fact a solid preshot routine is likely more of an outcome on a scorecard than the irons used BECAUSE the mental aspect of this game trumps the trade offs in equipment. Again, I will use the example of the Vsteel crew, there is better forgiveness out there and tech right? But they are at home with that 3wood and score better with it. I have a 913f that isn’t going anywhere for same reasons.

Do some guys make bad arguments for both sides, sure. But don’t let they muddy the water. Clubs need to be comfortable, you need to believe in what you can do and know what you can’t, and the greater that comfort level with any conforming club that is the club you will shoot your potential with.

>

> My problem is that all these low handicap anti blades guys have to know at that level how important the mental aspect is, and how it trumps equipment. He’ll most of the time equipment helps spark a new exciting mental outlook....most of the time we pay for that placebo, like a rally cap, we want to hear it is longer straighter more forgiving And we stand over the ball feeling that and swinging with confidence in it......

 

 

... Confidence can easily be confused with stubbornness. As a full time instructor I had to talk more than a few students out of playing MB's because they didn't have the swing to make them work as designed. But they sure thought they did. And I have said this before but I had one student that desperately needed CB's but because he was convinced he played much better with MB's, his swings were much worse with CB's. At first I thought he was sabotaging his CB swings so he could hang on to his MB's but pretty quickly I realized he just had a mental block playing anything but MB's so we stuck with them, although he was the lone exception. And yes, I had students playing MB's that hit them as well as they would hit anything else and suggesting they try CB's never entered my mind. But again, they were the exception.

 

... So while of course there is truth to having confidence in what you choose to play can be and is very important, so is self delusion. And the amount of golfers playing shafts too stiff, lofts too low and long irons instead of hybrids that delude themselves and play clubs that do not give them their best chance at shooting their lowest score is definately not minimal in golf.

[MelloYello]

> @revanant said:

>

> Went back and read this recently. I agree with this—I think there’s a lot to be said for having a uniform look between irons. I also think it's part of the reason I struggle a bit with driver as a high handicap. It's the most different club/swing in my bag. It's probably why I favor 3w and 5w—it’s easier mentally to make a sweeping swing that catches the ball in the middle of my arc from a small tee, than to hit up on the ball from a taller tee. I hit the sim recently and the club speed on my 41 inch 5 wood was coming out at 93 mph. My longer driver never gets above 90 mph—so maybe I could use a shorter shaft?

>

> That being said, I’ve put a bit of practice in and it looks like I’ve ironed out my push/slice—which was the single worst part of my golf game. I wish I was hitting longer, but maybe in time. If I can avoid a major directional miss, however, I’ll save a lot of strokes. : )

>

>

 

A bit of life advice...take time to figure out the driver. It's your #1 tee club. It used to be called the "play club" because it was used to initiate play.

 

You know what? It's still the play club--the big dog! Don't ever get complacent. Never accept it as a weakness. Fix it now. Get on a course to make it a strength asap!

 

If you want to be good at golf, you have to drive it well and you have to putt it well. The irons will sort themselves out as you go, but if you never fix your driving (and putting) you'll always be way worse in handicap than you otherwise could be.

 

I haven't encountered a single good golfer who isn't really consistent off the tee and good on the greens. The most impressive players combined consistency with length as well.

 

In today's game, with modern drivers and modern balls, if you aren't hitting it long and straight, you're doing it wrong.

 

 

[revanant]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> >

> > Went back and read this recently. I agree with this—I think there’s a lot to be said for having a uniform look between irons. I also think it's part of the reason I struggle a bit with driver as a high handicap. It's the most different club/swing in my bag. It's probably why I favor 3w and 5w—it’s easier mentally to make a sweeping swing that catches the ball in the middle of my arc from a small tee, than to hit up on the ball from a taller tee. I hit the sim recently and the club speed on my 41 inch 5 wood was coming out at 93 mph. My longer driver never gets above 90 mph—so maybe I could use a shorter shaft?

> >

> > That being said, I’ve put a bit of practice in and it looks like I’ve ironed out my push/slice—which was the single worst part of my golf game. I wish I was hitting longer, but maybe in time. If I can avoid a major directional miss, however, I’ll save a lot of strokes. : )

> >

> >

>

> A bit of life advice...take time to figure out the driver. It's your #1 tee club. It used to be called the "play club" because it was used to initiate play.

>

> You know what? It's still the play club--the big dog! Don't ever get complacent. Never accept it as a weakness. Fix it now. Get on a course to make it a strength asap!

>

> If you want to be good at golf, you have to drive it well and you have to putt it well. The irons will sort themselves out as you go, but if you never fix your driving (and putting) you'll always be way worse in handicap than you otherwise could be.

>

> I haven't encountered a single good golfer who isn't really consistent off the tee and good on the greens. The most impressive players combined consistency with length as well.

>

> In today's game, with modern drivers and modern balls, if you aren't hitting it long and straight, you're doing it wrong.

>

>

 

I’m with you.

 

It looks like I’m hitting it straighter. Long...well, I’d like to pick up some clubhead speed over the summer. Less gear, more lessons.

[Exactice808]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > ...he would NOT leave himself a 50 yards shot. MUCH like some may NOT want a 5 yard shot compared to a 10 yard... for whatever reason in specific to ones personal game.

>

> That video does not help your case.

>

> DJ is explaining how he uses 'pet' distances within his wedge game.

>

> Regardless of what pet distance he prefers for a given wedge shot, he has to lay-up to that distance. When he does so he's trying to get as close as possible to that pet distance.

>

> If he misses that pet distance, I would assume he wants to at least get as close as possible to his intended pet distance, no?

>

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > AGAIN for you to apply your opinions as UNIVERSAL and it applies to all's ones game is my contention with you. YOUR opinions should be shared experiences equal to my opinion no better or no worse to allow another person onlooking to take it into account and make their OWN finalized decisions. NEITHER of our experiences are wrong.

>

> This isn't about opinions. Look at what I just wrote above. I had to _correct_ you because you misunderstood what DJ was saying. Worse yet, you continue to get things wrong. You cry foul when people try to show you the error of your ways. And you continue to tirelessly argue a case based on faulty logic.

>

> At some point, the world just can't help you, bro.

>

> When you get something wrong and someone takes time to clarify it for you, the appropriate response is "thank you." Instead, you talk about how you're being attacked.

>

> Again, what else can people do but try and help?

>

> When you took spelling tests in grade school, did you accuse your teachers of attacking you when you didn't get an A+? That's what you're doing here.

>

>

 

Look in the mirror..... You said that 5 yards it better than 10 yards purely based on the Proximity. I and another poster stated that thats not true on all accounts.

 

This video edifies that preference of yardage is more important than closes too proximity. I am not twisting ,changing anything. I am making the point. EACH players game differs even HE said it. He has a preference. Closes proximity is NOT something he would fall back he would rather be at a set distance that gives him the best opportunity. that IS NOT saying closer to the hole period.

 

Like you said, "pet distance" well then WHY does he NOT say I want to be 10 yards from the green or just generally CLOSER? or 5 yards from the green Closer.

 

because by preference closer is NOT always beneficial.

 

You seem to like the words wrong, as you interpret wanting to ALWAYS be right..... I have on countless post refuted many of your claims.... and you wanting to be right is all on you. I really dont care any more. You have shown your immaturity more so just being a jerk in general.

 

I am done with you have great day, Live in your world. I am more than happy to share to the rest of the world my experiences, data and opinions so they can make their own educated decisions. You just want to ram your own damn opinion down other people throat... Good on you!

 

have a good day sir I wish you nothing but the best!

[Bigmean]

Chisag, that makes sense. Look neither of my last two instructors gave any negative feedback on my Irons. One of them saw me using both and made the comment he would prefer I didn’t alter sets, I told him mentally sometimes I need that change and he was more of the less changes the better philosophy. Which I think probably has a very valid argument over my liking to have a set of each.

 

By muddy, I meant do people play MBs that shouldn’t and are not honest, for sure. Maybe that is me and I can’t see it living on my own perspective reality, maybe it isn’t since now that you mention it 2

Instructors (one was really highly thought of) didn’t seem to pay it any mind other than the highly thought of one saying “feedback is good” (he also gamed Titleist blades in full disclosure so maybe he is part of the conspiracy).

 

So anyway, as an instructor, yes you have come across stubborn guys for whatever reason, but you likely have also come across guys who can put an athletic down and throw strike on it that get sloppy or handsy and Equipment is not going to lower their score per say.

 

I don’t know, I feel like there are plenty of 5-12 caps who can score their best current potential with whatever as there are also plenty who are probably hurting themselves.

 

I see the whole thing as shades of grey

I guess. And definitive comments for both sides are just very unprovable. I defend the blade side becuase I feel like that is the easy swipe for the other camp to blanket statements.

 

 

 

[MelloYello]

> @Exactice808 said:

>

> Look in the mirror..... You said that 5 yards it better than 10 yards purely based on the Proximity. I and another poster stated that thats not true on all accounts.

>

> This video edifies that preference of yardage is more important than closes too proximity. I am not twisting ,changing anything. I am making the point. EACH players game differs even HE said it. He has a preference. Closes proximity is NOT something he would fall back he would rather be at a set distance that gives him the best opportunity. that IS NOT saying closer to the hole period.

>

> Like you said, "pet distance" well then WHY does he NOT say I want to be 10 yards from the green or just generally CLOSER? or 5 yards from the green Closer.

>

> because by preference closer is NOT always beneficial.

>

> You seem to like the words wrong, as you interpret wanting to ALWAYS be right..... I have on countless post refuted many of your claims.... and you wanting to be right is all on you. I really dont care any more. You have shown your immaturity more so just being a jerk in general.

>

> I am done with you have great day, Live in your world. I am more than happy to share to the rest of the world my experiences, data and opinions so they can make their own educated decisions. You just want to ram your own **** opinion down other people throat... Good on you!

>

> have a good day sir I wish you nothing but the best!

 

The unnecessarily defensive stance. The emotionally-charged responses. The regular attempts to involve within the debate a sense of his own internal panic. The constant refrain of sensing that he's under attack. The obsession with describing the world through his experiences.

 

Those are definitely symptoms.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[chisag]

> @Bigmean said:

> Chisag, that makes sense. Look neither of my last two instructors gave any negative feedback on my Irons. One of them saw me using both and made the comment he would prefer I didn’t alter sets, I told him mentally sometimes I need that change and he was more of the less changes the better philosophy. Which I think probably has a very valid argument over my liking to have a set of each.

>

> By muddy, I meant do people play MBs that shouldn’t and are not honest, for sure. Maybe that is me and I can’t see it living on my own perspective reality, maybe it isn’t since now that you mention it 2

> Instructors (one was really highly thought of) didn’t seem to pay it any mind other than the highly thought of one saying “feedback is good” (he also gamed Titleist blades in full disclosure so maybe he is part of the conspiracy).

>

> So anyway, as an instructor, yes you have come across stubborn guys for whatever reason, but you likely have also come across guys who can put an athletic down and throw strike on it that get sloppy or handsy and Equipment is not going to lower their score per say.

>

> I don’t know, I feel like there are plenty of 5-12 caps who can score their best current potential with whatever as there are also plenty who are probably hurting themselves.

>

> I see the whole thing as shades of grey

> I guess. And definitive comments for both sides are just very unprovable. I defend the blade side becuase I feel like that is the easy swipe for the other camp to blanket statements.

>

 

... The thing is, none of this happens out in the real world, just the internet and pretty much just WRX. And to be honest I really don't care what anyone here already plays or if they could score lower using a more forgiving iron. I certainly have no interest in talking someone out of playing MB's if they own them and hate to be mixed in with some of the CB zealots here. The only thing I do care about is making sure someone, especially a younger player influenced by WRX, does not go into MB's blindly thinking they will make them a better player, because through experience I know this is just not true for the vast majority of golfers out there. But if they read these threads and decide to play MB's knowing they still may not give them the best chance of shooting their lowest score but want to play them for a myriad of reasons from 1. they just look cool 2. the feel of a perfectly struck MB should be experienced by everyone and 3. I am just drawn to them for any other reason ... then knock yourself out and have some fun. I played too many sets of MB's to mention and enjoyed them when I played them so I get it. But it wasn't until I decided I wanted to get to a + index and didn't care how long it took that I made an honest assessment of what equipment would best help me do that and MB's were the first to go.

[mahonie]

> @chisag said:

> > @Bigmean said:

> > Chisag, that makes sense. Look neither of my last two instructors gave any negative feedback on my Irons. One of them saw me using both and made the comment he would prefer I didn’t alter sets, I told him mentally sometimes I need that change and he was more of the less changes the better philosophy. Which I think probably has a very valid argument over my liking to have a set of each.

> >

> > By muddy, I meant do people play MBs that shouldn’t and are not honest, for sure. Maybe that is me and I can’t see it living on my own perspective reality, maybe it isn’t since now that you mention it 2

> > Instructors (one was really highly thought of) didn’t seem to pay it any mind other than the highly thought of one saying “feedback is good” (he also gamed Titleist blades in full disclosure so maybe he is part of the conspiracy).

> >

> > So anyway, as an instructor, yes you have come across stubborn guys for whatever reason, but you likely have also come across guys who can put an athletic down and throw strike on it that get sloppy or handsy and Equipment is not going to lower their score per say.

> >

> > I don’t know, I feel like there are plenty of 5-12 caps who can score their best current potential with whatever as there are also plenty who are probably hurting themselves.

> >

> > I see the whole thing as shades of grey

> > I guess. And definitive comments for both sides are just very unprovable. I defend the blade side becuase I feel like that is the easy swipe for the other camp to blanket statements.

> >

>

> ... The thing is, none of this happens out in the real world, just the internet and pretty much just WRX. And to be honest I really don't care what anyone here already plays or if they could score lower using a more forgiving iron. I certainly have no interest in talking someone out of playing MB's if they own them and hate to be mixed in with some of the CB zealots here. The only thing I do care about is making sure someone, especially a younger player influenced by WRX, does not go into MB's blindly thinking they will make them a better player, because through experience I know this is just not true for the vast majority of golfers out there. But if they read these threads and decide to play MB's knowing they still may not give them the best chance of shooting their lowest score but want to play them for a myriad of reasons from 1. they just look cool 2. the feel of a perfectly struck MB should be experienced by everyone and 3. I am just drawn to them for any other reason ... then knock yourself out and have some fun. I played too many sets of MB's to mention and enjoyed them when I played them so I get it. But it wasn't until I decided I wanted to get to a + index and didn't care how long it took that I made an honest assessment of what equipment would best help me do that and MB's were the first to go.

 

Chisag, I’ve noticed you’ve scaled down the number of P790s in your bag. Were they too forgiving by any chance?

 

[MelloYello]

> @chisag said:

> ... The thing is, none of this happens out in the real world, just the internet and pretty much just WRX. And to be honest I really don't care what anyone here already plays or if they could score lower using a more forgiving iron.

 

Um...not to burst your bubble but the "real world" is made up of the same people that post here.

 

It's not that they don't care. It's that they're not being prompted to offer their thoughts. If you asked for their opinion, they'd likely give it. And if they didn't want to be honest, they'd bail with a typical, _'well, you can do what you want'_ type of response to be polite.

 

It's just that here, we don't pull punches when we're prompted for our 2 cents. When a person is illogical, they get called silly and laughed at.

 

The fact so many get emotional and defensive shows just how little resistance our "real world" offers to people who want to shoot themselves in the foot.

 

Truth is, people don't care in the real world because you don't mean anything to them.

 

If you isolate just the people who are close friends (if these guys have any), it's very likely that those friends at some point said, _'hey...look...dude...I know you like those blades but they aren't helping your game.'_

 

People who actually care say stuff like that because they want to see that person improve.

 

You're right that most people in the real world are apathetic but that's not exactly a compliment.

[Golf4lifer]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @chisag said:

> > ... The thing is, none of this happens out in the real world, just the internet and pretty much just WRX. And to be honest I really don't care what anyone here already plays or if they could score lower using a more forgiving iron.

>

> Um...not to burst your bubble but the "real world" is made up of the same people that post here.

>

> It's not that they don't care. It's that they're not being prompted to offer their thoughts. If you asked for their opinion, they'd likely give it. And if they didn't want to be honest, they'd bail with a typical, _'well, you can do what you want'_ type of response to be polite.

>

> It's just that here, we don't pull punches when we're prompted for our 2 cents. When a person is illogical, they get called silly and laughed at.

>

> The fact so many get emotional and defensive shows just how little resistance our "real world" offers to people who want to shoot themselves in the foot.

>

> Truth is, people don't care in the real world because you don't mean anything to them.

>

> If you isolate just the people who are close friends (if these guys have any), it's very likely that those friends at some point said, _'hey...look...dude...I know you like those blades but they aren't helping your game.'_

>

> People who actually care say stuff like that because they want to see that person improve.

>

> You're right that most people in the real world are apathetic but that's not exactly a compliment.

 

Where on the face do you typically hit the ball with your cb’s?

[dpb5031]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > ...he would NOT leave himself a 50 yards shot. MUCH like some may NOT want a 5 yard shot compared to a 10 yard... for whatever reason in specific to ones personal game.

> >

> > That video does not help your case.

> >

> > DJ is explaining how he uses 'pet' distances within his wedge game.

> >

> > Regardless of what pet distance he prefers for a given wedge shot, he has to lay-up to that distance. When he does so he's trying to get as close as possible to that pet distance.

> >

> > If he misses that pet distance, I would assume he wants to at least get as close as possible to his intended pet distance, no?

> >

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > AGAIN for you to apply your opinions as UNIVERSAL and it applies to all's ones game is my contention with you. YOUR opinions should be shared experiences equal to my opinion no better or no worse to allow another person onlooking to take it into account and make their OWN finalized decisions. NEITHER of our experiences are wrong.

> >

> > This isn't about opinions. Look at what I just wrote above. I had to _correct_ you because you misunderstood what DJ was saying. Worse yet, you continue to get things wrong. You cry foul when people try to show you the error of your ways. And you continue to tirelessly argue a case based on faulty logic.

> >

> > At some point, the world just can't help you, bro.

> >

> > When you get something wrong and someone takes time to clarify it for you, the appropriate response is "thank you." Instead, you talk about how you're being attacked.

> >

> > Again, what else can people do but try and help?

> >

> > When you took spelling tests in grade school, did you accuse your teachers of attacking you when you didn't get an A+? That's what you're doing here.

> >

> >

>

> Look in the mirror..... You said that 5 yards it better than 10 yards purely based on the Proximity. I and another poster stated that thats not true on all accounts.

>

> This video edifies that preference of yardage is more important than closes too proximity. I am not twisting ,changing anything. I am making the point. EACH players game differs even HE said it. He has a preference. Closes proximity is NOT something he would fall back he would rather be at a set distance that gives him the best opportunity. that IS NOT saying closer to the hole period.

>

> Like you said, "pet distance" well then WHY does he NOT say I want to be 10 yards from the green or just generally CLOSER? or 5 yards from the green Closer.

>

> because by preference closer is NOT always beneficial.

>

> You seem to like the words wrong, as you interpret wanting to ALWAYS be right..... I have on countless post refuted many of your claims.... and you wanting to be right is all on you. I really dont care any more. You have shown your immaturity more so just being a jerk in general.

>

> I am done with you have great day, Live in your world. I am more than happy to share to the rest of the world my experiences, data and opinions so they can make their own educated decisions. You just want to ram your own **** opinion down other people throat... Good on you!

>

> have a good day sir I wish you nothing but the best!

 

If you're attempting to lay-up to your preference of 90 yards, and it ends up at 102 yards, that's still a miss...and now you're not in optimal position for the next shot. It's really no different than failing to carry a bunker or penalty area on an approach shot to the green.

[dpb5031]

@MelloYello , you've contradicted yourself quite a bit in this discussion. You admonish the mid-high cap who prefers blades over CBs, claiming they're not the best tool for the job. Then, in the same discussion you claim (for the sake of uniformity) that you personally (as a mid HC) are better off and more comfortable using a 3 iron instead of a hybrid...even though you acknowledge the advantages the hybrid provides. Beyond that, you're using relatively unforgiving CBs that aren't a whole lot different than the MBs you're scolding others for using.

 

Your posts here and in the other thread are both self-contradicting and hypocritical

[nsxguy]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> >

> > Went back and read this recently. I agree with this—I think there’s a lot to be said for having a uniform look between irons. I also think it's part of the reason I struggle a bit with driver as a high handicap. It's the most different club/swing in my bag. It's probably why I favor 3w and 5w—it’s easier mentally to make a sweeping swing that catches the ball in the middle of my arc from a small tee, than to hit up on the ball from a taller tee. I hit the sim recently and the club speed on my 41 inch 5 wood was coming out at 93 mph. My longer driver never gets above 90 mph—so maybe I could use a shorter shaft?

> >

> > That being said, I’ve put a bit of practice in and it looks like I’ve ironed out my push/slice—which was the single worst part of my golf game. I wish I was hitting longer, but maybe in time. If I can avoid a major directional miss, however, I’ll save a lot of strokes. : )

> >

> >

>

> A bit of life advice...take time to figure out the driver. It's your #1 tee club. It used to be called the "play club" because it was used to initiate play.

>

> You know what? It's still the play club--the big dog! Don't ever get complacent. Never accept it as a weakness. Fix it now. Get on a course to make it a strength asap!

>

> If you want to be good at golf, you have to drive it well and you have to putt it well. The irons will sort themselves out as you go, but if you never fix your driving (and putting) you'll always be way worse in handicap than you otherwise could be.

>

> I haven't encountered a single good golfer who isn't really consistent off the tee and good on the greens. The most impressive players combined consistency with length as well.

>

> In today's game, with modern drivers and modern balls, if you aren't hitting it long and straight, you're doing it wrong.

>

>

 

I think we've found our unicorn.

 

revanant is a 27 handicapper. Above is his driver. Below is his iron session.

 

You'd have to give him a shot per hole - what do you think about that ? LMAO

 

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

> @MelloYello said:

> The unnecessarily defensive stance. The emotionally-charged responses. The regular attempts to involve within the debate a sense of his own internal panic. The constant refrain of sensing that he's under attack. The obsession with describing the world through his experiences.

>

> Those are definitely symptoms.

>

Sad... everything you throw out.... sadly you are guilty of it.

 

> @MelloYello said:

> First, according to your signature, you're playing perimeter-weighted 4- and 5-irons...and it appears that you've traded in your 2- and 3-irons for a 5w, too!

>

> Now, hey, I'm not poking fun as you and I have similar setups in that regard. But I'm confused by the fact you seem to value forgiveness in the 5i but don't want it in the 6i.

>

> If you make $100k as a professional, then I'll just shut up. But I'm guessing you don't.

>

> So it seems you want "demanding" clubs as long as they're not _too demanding_. Seems a bit hypocritical to me.

>

>

> Second, let's not compare the set PW since that's where both sets overlap the most. Are you hitting the 4-, 5-, 6- and 7-irons in each set equally well? No difference in height? What about carry? What about lateral dispersion? What about distance control?

>

Hypocrite no? Accuse me of valuing forgiveness. Yes if its justified, yet 716 CB 3,4,5 iron? Really your CB's are that ultra forgiving... what a hypocrite

 

> @MelloYello said:

 

> Look, bro, however you feel, you really ought to lighten up. You come off as super triggered because people are talking about your clubs. It was kind of funny at first. **_Okay, yes, I was baiting and trolling you a bit yesterday. I was having a laugh.

> _**

> But dude, you were reacting _poorly_ and need to settle down with this business of being so serious. This is a chatroom of dorky golf dudes. Of course people can buy and play what they want. I wouldn't have it any other way.

>

> But this forum is for debating this kind of meaningless stuff. If it seems too mean or judgmental then don't participate, right? The only way it goes wrong is if people take it way personal.

>

Then you bait and troll like an immature child. First its a chatroom of dorky golf dudes, then out of the other corner of your mouth, this forum is for debating this kind of meaningless stuff. If you dont like debating in meaningless stuff dont participate yourself..... hypocrite

> @MelloYello said:

 

> I totally respect your reasoning here but let me explain why you are wrong. This isn't my opinion, either. This is what club designers have done for decades now.

>

> The stronger loft is part of the equation. You are correct about that. However, to compensate the designers put a lot of weight at the bottom of the club to lower the CG. This increases launch angle.

>

> So for a given player who has a certain swing speed, the CB will generate faster ball speed due to the decreased loft, but it will still launch high thanks to the lower CG. The result is a longer shot with the CB because it's better engineered for his strike.

>

> If you look at the player's peak height, it's virtually the same with both clubs. The CB is simply optimizing performance for this player.

>

> This isn't my opinion. This is how clubs are designed.

>

>**_ If you disagree with what I'm saying, please don't bother to respond as you are just going to be flatly wrong and quite frankly I don't want to hear it. This isn't opinion. You either understand the effects at play here or you don't. _**

>

Then here is your asinine remarks and your own Internal Panic. You are afraid to have this conversation... But your

whole comment was a joke to begin with. "Engineers" put a lot of weight at the bottom of the club to lower CG. So how about facts... TM stated they moved 7grams of weight in the Rbladez when the introduced the speed slot... You think they took all the weight and stuck it to the bottom of the club to increase CG to aid in ball launch, HOW about it... then lets all add 7 grams of weight to the bottom of all our clubs. Solves everyone's launch issue......

 

Describing the world. NOPE I am here sharing and not being selfish, providing my personal experiences and data finding so others can make their own judgement.... You on the other hand just want to rant and rave how right you are and how wrong ALL mid handicap blade players are.... We are all flat out wrong because you say so.....

 

ALL good... I see any discussion is meaningless with you.... You want to be right...so its meaningless you dont want a debate you want to prove others wrong and stand on your soap box... Stand on it and pat your back!!!! Have fun!

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

> @dpb5031 said:

> If you're attempting to lay-up to your preference of 90 yards, and it ends up at 102 yards, that's still a miss...and now you're not in optimal position for the next shot. It's really no different than failing to carry a bunker or penalty area on an approach shot to the green.

Absolutely! That is "still a miss" that I and many people suffer from. So by debate sake.... Will that SGI save me the stroke or not? Its more forgiving factually...but does that translate back to saving me a stroke or making my score better.

 

The discussion was the acceptance of proximity. While a great rule of thumb closer proximity is better....But its not universal and players preference of shot is likely another factor that could be a major factor player to player no?

 

 

[dpb5031]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

> > If you're attempting to lay-up to your preference of 90 yards, and it ends up at 102 yards, that's still a miss...and now you're not in optimal position for the next shot. It's really no different than failing to carry a bunker or penalty area on an approach shot to the green.

> Absolutely! That is "still a miss" that I and many people suffer from. So by debate sake.... Will that SGI save me the stroke or not? Its more forgiving factually...but does that translate back to saving me a stroke or making my score better.

>

> The discussion was the acceptance of proximity. While a great rule of thumb closer proximity is better....But its not universal and players preference of shot is likely another factor that could be a major factor player to player no?

>

>

 

Proximity becomes a major issue when you face forced carries over bunkers, water, or other penalty area. Using clubs that will help your ball stay in the air longer, and carry farther when you dont quite strike it perfectly is a tangible advantage that saves strokes...sometimes multiple strokes on a given hole.

[dciccoritti]

> @dpb5031 said:

 

> Using clubs that will help your ball stay in the air longer, and carry farther when you dont quite strike it perfectly is a tangible advantage that saves strokes

 

Is that forgiveness or flight optimization?

 

 

[Tree Levino]

I'm surprised and glad that they've left this thread open - thoroughly entertaining. To above points:

1. I think Mello and Revenant are off. Saying that combo sets are bad because of uniform look is ridiculous. I'm playing T-MB long irons now and the transition is absolutely seamless between them and my CBs. I don't even think about it. If they're built to the same spec and it's the right combo you'll never notice. The amount of pros doing this now is the majority and for good reason.

2. I think the difference between the CB and MB is much more than what is described above.

3. Exactice808 your argument really only works in circumstances with no danger around and nothing to carry. Cavity helps miss hits. End of story. There is no arguing that.

[dpb5031]

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @dpb5031 said:

>

> > Using clubs that will help your ball stay in the air longer, and carry farther when you dont quite strike it perfectly is a tangible advantage that saves strokes

>

> Is that forgiveness or flight optimization?

>

>

 

In the context of this discussion it's forgiveness. Becomes even more significant when comparing hybrids to long irons for most recreational players.

[MelloYello]

> @balls_deep said:

> I'm surprised and glad that they've left this thread open - thoroughly entertaining. To above points:

> 1. I think Mello and Revenant are off. Saying that combo sets are bad because of uniform look is ridiculous. I'm playing T-MB long irons now and the transition is absolutely seamless between them and my CBs. I don't even think about it. If they're built to the same spec and it's the right combo you'll never notice. The amount of pros doing this now is the majority and for good reason.

> 2. I think the difference between the CB and MB is much more than what is described above.

> 3. Exactice808 your argument really only works in circumstances with no danger around and nothing to carry. Cavity helps miss hits. End of story. There is no arguing that.

 

You know, rather than debate this stuff (which quite frankly I'm tired of at this point), let me just ask, how do you like those T-MBs?

 

Before I transitioned to the CB, I tried combing a few T-MB long irons with my MB set. All clubs were of the 716 variety. I have to admit I was a little disappointed to find that however solid they were, the T-MB didn't seem to raise the launch versus the MB which was really my hope.

 

So when I got to the CB, I actually found I liked those long irons most of all. This is far from the only example but it's one reason I prefer sets of one-type. I would agree with you that adding a few T-MB irons is hardly difficult. There are a few irons that blend well, and those are one.

[revanant]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @revanant said:

> > >

> > > Went back and read this recently. I agree with this—I think there’s a lot to be said for having a uniform look between irons. I also think it's part of the reason I struggle a bit with driver as a high handicap. It's the most different club/swing in my bag. It's probably why I favor 3w and 5w—it’s easier mentally to make a sweeping swing that catches the ball in the middle of my arc from a small tee, than to hit up on the ball from a taller tee. I hit the sim recently and the club speed on my 41 inch 5 wood was coming out at 93 mph. My longer driver never gets above 90 mph—so maybe I could use a shorter shaft?

> > >

> > > That being said, I’ve put a bit of practice in and it looks like I’ve ironed out my push/slice—which was the single worst part of my golf game. I wish I was hitting longer, but maybe in time. If I can avoid a major directional miss, however, I’ll save a lot of strokes. : )

> > >

> > >

> >

> > A bit of life advice...take time to figure out the driver. It's your #1 tee club. It used to be called the "play club" because it was used to initiate play.

> >

> > You know what? It's still the play club--the big dog! Don't ever get complacent. Never accept it as a weakness. Fix it now. Get on a course to make it a strength asap!

> >

> > If you want to be good at golf, you have to drive it well and you have to putt it well. The irons will sort themselves out as you go, but if you never fix your driving (and putting) you'll always be way worse in handicap than you otherwise could be.

> >

> > I haven't encountered a single good golfer who isn't really consistent off the tee and good on the greens. The most impressive players combined consistency with length as well.

> >

> > In today's game, with modern drivers and modern balls, if you aren't hitting it long and straight, you're doing it wrong.

> >

> >

>

> I think we've found our unicorn.

>

> revanant is a 27 handicapper. Above is his driver. Below is his iron session.

>

> You'd have to give him a shot per hole - what do you think about that ? LMAO

>

>

>

>

>

 

For what it’s worth, I give the strokes back with interest within 50 yards, and my driver is still unreliable—but it’s getting better. A lost ball off the tee hurts, though. Also, I’m now officially a 25.4 handicap, so going in the right direction.

 

I’m playing 18 on Saturday with my spare set and my Uncle’s friends. I usually win enough to buy a gatorade. : )

[Tree Levino]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > I'm surprised and glad that they've left this thread open - thoroughly entertaining. To above points:

> > 1. I think Mello and Revenant are off. Saying that combo sets are bad because of uniform look is ridiculous. I'm playing T-MB long irons now and the transition is absolutely seamless between them and my CBs. I don't even think about it. If they're built to the same spec and it's the right combo you'll never notice. The amount of pros doing this now is the majority and for good reason.

> > 2. I think the difference between the CB and MB is much more than what is described above.

> > 3. Exactice808 your argument really only works in circumstances with no danger around and nothing to carry. Cavity helps miss hits. End of story. There is no arguing that.

>

> You know, rather than debate this stuff (which quite frankly I'm tired of at this point), let me just ask, how do you like those T-MBs?

>

> Before I transitioned to the CB, I tried combing a few T-MB long irons with my MB set. All clubs were of the 716 variety. I have to admit I was a little disappointed to find that however solid they were, the T-MB didn't seem to raise the launch versus the MB which was really my hope.

>

> So when I got to the CB, I actually found I liked those long irons most of all. This is far from the only example but it's one reason I prefer sets of one-type. I would agree with you that adding a few T-MB irons is hardly difficult. There are a few irons that blend well, and those are one.

 

This set is new to me. I picked it up from a rich scratch player for a silly price. I only have one range session and 18 holes under my belt with them so it's very early days. I was worried about the X flex shafts as I only swing my 7 at around 89mph but they are so easy to launch and I actually had some shots yesterday that I overspun surprisingly (nothing too bad it was quite windy). The 120x is insanely easy to load.

 

I absolutely love the CB and have been looking for a set for quite some time. I had a set from Global Golf to try but they had a horrible home reshaft job done on them so I sent them back despite loving the feel. When I took these to the range I was actually a bit worried about the T-MB. I'd heard they weren't that forgiving and that they didn't feel very good. In practice, they elevated VERY well. Insanely high apex and stopping within 3 feet of their pitch mark for the 5i. The feel is actually very very nice (hard to distinguish from forged if middled) and the look is spot on - you can't see a difference between them and the CB at address. So my guess is that you just need the right shaft. They are FAR more forgiving than MB, CB, and AP2. They feel better than AP3 IMO. Highly recommend giving them another go.

 

I'm really excited about this set. I play better with flatter lies and I found stock Titleist has been too upright for me. The shaft is an awesome fit despite it being a shot in the dark. Just going to experiment with the 120s wedge set and if they work I'll switch those shafts into my SM7 set.

[MelloYello]

> @dpb5031 said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > > @dpb5031 said:

> >

> > > Using clubs that will help your ball stay in the air longer, and carry farther when you dont quite strike it perfectly is a tangible advantage that saves strokes

> >

> > Is that forgiveness or flight optimization?

> >

> >

>

> In the context of this discussion it's forgiveness. Becomes even more significant when comparing hybrids to long irons for most recreational players.

 

Last night I went to the course and did a little experimenting. I took my normal set (with it's long irons) along with a couple extra clubs: a 718 CB 2i and an old Adams 9031 Pro Black in 23-deg.

 

I must admit that I surprised myself in how I seemed hit the 2i rather flush. But as expected, I don't have the SS for it. While it certainly stayed lower in the air and could conceivably be helpful on a windy day, I couldn't consistently out-hit my 3-iron which I got up in the air far more easily.

 

So without much hesitation I can say that I'm not a 2-iron guy anymore.

 

As the round wore on my long irons got clunky. Quite frankly I was just tired not to mention the fact that stuck in my button-up shirt from work, my swing was a bit restricted, haha.

 

Anyhow, I pulled out the 23-deg hybrid on #9 tee and was very pleased with the results. While I could conceivably use that as a 4i replacement, I just haven't had much luck with hybrids stronger than that. It seems finding one in the 18- to 20-deg range that gets the ball up high is somewhat difficult.

 

I have a 19-deg Exotics E8 which is probably about as easy-to-hit as any hybrid you'll find. But that starts to creep somewhat close to my shortened (42") fairway.

 

So, IDK, you really have me thinking! But I just so rarely hit the 3- and 4-irons I'm not sure it's worth doing anything crazy at this stage, you know? Then again, I am certainly interested in this topic.

[MelloYello]

> @balls_deep said:

>

> This set is new to me. I picked it up from a rich scratch player for a silly price. I only have one range session and 18 holes under my belt with them so it's very early days. I was worried about the X flex shafts as I only swing my 7 at around 89mph but they are so easy to launch and I actually had some shots yesterday that I overspun surprisingly (nothing too bad it was quite windy). The 120x is insanely easy to load.

>

> I absolutely love the CB and have been looking for a set for quite some time. I had a set from Global Golf to try but they had a horrible home reshaft job done on them so I sent them back despite loving the feel. When I took these to the range I was actually a bit worried about the T-MB. I'd heard they weren't that forgiving and that they didn't feel very good. In practice, they elevated VERY well. Insanely high apex and stopping within 3 feet of their pitch mark for the 5i. The feel is actually very very nice (hard to distinguish from forged if middled) and the look is spot on - you can't see a difference between them and the CB at address. So my guess is that you just need the right shaft. They are FAR more forgiving than MB, CB, and AP2. They feel better than AP3 IMO. Highly recommend giving them another go.

>

> I'm really excited about this set. I play better with flatter lies and I found stock Titleist has been too upright for me. The shaft is an awesome fit despite it being a shot in the dark. Just going to experiment with the 120s wedge set and if they work I'll switch those shafts into my SM7 set.

 

Yeah, I agree that the feel is really solid. I recall liking that aspect.

 

I was using normal (130g) S300's in all the irons I was comparing: AP2, MB, T-MB. One thing that changed when I went to these CB's is that I started using the S300 AMT which transitions from 130g down to about 110g. That definitely makes it easier to launch the longer clubs.

 

I never felt the T-MB out-performed the AP2 w.r.t. launch so I'm guessing the discrepancy in our reviews must be in regards to the shafts we had. I never quite got comfortable with the T-MB but maybe it was that heavy S300?

 

Having felt the difference in these AMT's as well as the benefit that can come from a KBS (notoriously easy to load) or a Project Xi of some sort, I'm starting to think that shaft is widely underappreciated in iron fitting. I used to stick with S300's for their feel but seeing what other shafts can do is eye-opening.

 

I hit a guys 18-deg driving iron this past weekend and just roasted it. It went as far as my 16.5-deg fairway! I credit a lot of that to the Project Xi shaft.

[revanant]

> @balls_deep said:

> I'm surprised and glad that they've left this thread open - thoroughly entertaining. To above points:

> 1. I think Mello and Revenant are off. Saying that combo sets are bad because of uniform look is ridiculous. I'm playing T-MB long irons now and the transition is absolutely seamless between them and my CBs. I don't even think about it. If they're built to the same spec and it's the right combo you'll never notice. The amount of pros doing this now is the majority and for good reason.

> 2. I think the difference between the CB and MB is much more than what is described above.

> 3. Exactice808 your argument really only works in circumstances with no danger around and nothing to carry. Cavity helps miss hits. End of story. There is no arguing that.

For what it’s worth, I don’t have a strong opinion on combo sets. Obviously, going through the bag, you need to be comfortable playing clubs of different length and shape. So, a change in iron shape shouldn’t be a dealbreaker.

 

On the other hand, I get the argument behind one-length clubs and fewer variables.

 

Ultimately, I think it’s a mental thing. If you like a club and feel confident with it, it doesn’t matter if it looks different from other clubs in your bag. The look becomes familiar and a source of confidence. On the other hand, if a player would be bothered by a mixed set, I’d understand.

 

In other news, my 716 CBs are sitting on a truck in Ohio. They can’t make it to the east coast soon enough.

[MelloYello]

My cynical view on combo sets comes from the fact that if you combine totally different clubs you're forcing yourself to adjust/compensate which seems like a bad idea. On the other hand if you combine clubs that are nearly identical then you haven't really gained anything.

 

For me, MB's and CB's always felt slightly different and got through the turf somewhat differently. There was a slight trajectory difference as well. So given that there was very little practical benefit in carrying MBs in the short(er) irons I abandoned that idea.

 

There are a bunch of "little" ways that the two clubs are different so without there being a huge benefit, why bring all that into the equation. Seems rather OCD.

 

I just don't see it as being worth it.

[Exactice808]

> @balls_deep said:

> I'm surprised and glad that they've left this thread open - thoroughly entertaining. To above points:

> 1. I think Mello and Revenant are off. Saying that combo sets are bad because of uniform look is ridiculous. I'm playing T-MB long irons now and the transition is absolutely seamless between them and my CBs. I don't even think about it. If they're built to the same spec and it's the right combo you'll never notice. The amount of pros doing this now is the majority and for good reason.

> 2. I think the difference between the CB and MB is much more than what is described above.

> 3. Exactice808 your argument really only works in circumstances with no danger around and nothing to carry. **Cavity helps miss hits**. End of story. There is no arguing that.

 

YES sir 100% I have never claimed otherwise. What I am implying is, for certain players and as I have used my self in this crazy thread as the only data that I have.

 

Is the net benefits of the "Cavity" helping me in my PW-6iron. OR is the help negligible enough that I can play MB's because I like them, I know for a fact that my 4 & 5 irons are not getting the net benefit. So i needed help. Now as for danger your are also 100% correct.

1) Why have I chosen MC's in my 4&5 iron well I am fortunate to play on shorter course and hit the ball a decent ways, I hardly if ever need to use a 4& 5 for any par 3s so the accuracy demand of say a 30 yard diameter Green is not the demand. But do I use my 4 & 5 for then? The 4 is my go to off the tee for short par 4s, normally goes about 200yards and any par 4 thats 350ish Im usually using it unless I am being egotistical and want to hit driver like an idiot. The 5 iron is for what ever 185ish shot is required. Most of the time Im just trying to "get" that distance advantage the CB's provide!

2) I have re-hashed this with my friend Mello, but PW -6iron, with the 6 iron about 175 yards, the dispersion and distance loss on miss hits are negligible at best SURE, I can admit that maybe I am possibly losing a stroke. BUT that 1 stroke loss is not detrimental to me and its worth the sacrifice to play what I want that being MB PW-6iron. Thats it...

 

So my whole discussion from my first post was if you are a serious player which I am, but I also like to have fun, TAKE your data and make your case. If the MB's fit the flight window and the potential loss shots are not detrimental then play what you like. BUT as I can see my data said that MB's in the 4 & 5 iron were detrimental enough to move to CB's as I was losing more strokes there than it was worth it!

IN regards to split sets while they do look a touch different, I did the data to match the lofts, lies, shaft and swing weight. The distance gap with the 4iron though is longer but that was the intent to get to best distance for the off the tee iron!