My experience gaming clubs that were designed for my handicap range

[revanant]

> @Nard_S said:

> Revanant,

> Work on gaining swing speed, then control of path. You don't need blades for any of that, you might like blades better for a number of reasons and a significant one is they tend to have more heft. PX 6.0 is plenty of shaft, maybe a shaft in same weight class but with softer bend profile is more judicious. But spend doe & effort on the aspect of full swing speed. Give that the priority. 3 years in, learn the right things now because to unwind bad habits later is incredibly hard to do. $500 in lessons is worth thousands chasing a better game with gear, be them SGI or traditional MB's.

>

> I play blades for their naked honesty and draw a line that game improvement stops at fingers and toes. It's not everyones' cup of tea to view it in such stark terms. But this imposes constraints that keep focus where it belongs. That's not "score". Anybody can get to low singles with a swing that has significant problems, I did that and all I can say is "big whoop". Once you get there, it's oddly even more frustrating not to be better. Takes a greater soundness of mechanics and method to go under 5, start playing in youth is major factor to go scratch, start playing as an adult, the barrier is near impossible and there's real anatomical, neurological reasons for it. So don't look for the fix in tools and gear, look for it in the body and mind because that's where the epicenter of peak capability resides. Good luck.

 

I’m with you on this, by and large. I like playing less forgiving irons, because they tell me when I screw up and don’t sugarcoat a miss. Likewise, if I get a nice strike, I know I’m doing things right and should repeat that swing/reinforce those mechanics. The net result has been that I’ve seen a lot of improvement very fast in the past few months, and a lot more confidence with my iron play.

 

To your point about shafts, I’m really not worried about it. I like the project x—I don’t find them stiff or uncomfortable, and I can make good contact with them. I did a pretty extensive shaft test with club champion, and the basic takeaway was that none of the shafts I played altered my head results and a $200-$300 reshaft was too much money for very tiny gains. To your point, I’d rather focus on lessons and practice rather than gear.

[MelloYello]

> @revanant said:

>

> For what it’s worth, I generally agree with you. I only posted the 6 irons since @Exactice808 wanted to drill into the metrics.

>

> I’m with you on there being a real difference between playing on course vs sim practice. Playing in the elements, with wind, off of uneven lies is vastly different from range practice off an indoor mat.

>

> I here you regarding speeding up my swing. I think I can do it—I get spikes to 80 mph with my 6 iron every so often. I may start a workout plan this summer with a golf focus. But partly, my mindset is that I don’t care if my 6 iron goes 145 or 155, since my ultimate bottleneck is my swing speed and I phase into 5 wood for my longer par 4s and par 5s anyway. If I’m getting the right spin and I’m hitting an iron consistently, all I care is that I pull my iron and can hit my number with accuracy. If I get the shot I want, I don’t care what the number is on the sole.

>

> On golf, I absolutely want to score my best. But I’m a glass-half full kind of guy. I need on-course practice, and a lot of that is just taking your lumps, seeing different lies, and learning for the future. Basically, learning course management the hard way. : ) But, even a bad round is something I just chalk up to extra practice. I’m not a club thrower—I’m the guy who thinks about his good shots all week, even when he shoots 102, and looks forward to more good shots the next weekend.

>

> In terms of improvement, I’m losing a lot of strokes with balls out of bounds and putting/chipping. By and large, it’s not my iron play.

>

> I played a round on Saturday down in my Miami with my spare T-zoids. I’m not as familiar with my distances for those clubs. I lost one ball in the water for being too long, 3 balls out of bounds, two balls sailed the green with my pw, and I couldn’t buy a putt—only one putt got me up and down in a single stroke. I also had two 4 irons that hit middle of the green but didn’t stick—I’m not sure what my spin was, but I was short a club with that set (it was a 155 carry shot, and that’s normally a comfortable 5 iron for me with around 5k spin). I did make par nonetheless on one of the holes—it was my lone 1-putt. More importantly, I made $4 bucks on match play with my handicap—my scores are usually pars and bogeys, with a few blowups, so match play suits me.

>

> On iron play, though, I’m not a bad ball striker. I think I should be able to see a difference between my 716 CBs with a 95 gram shaft and my MP-4s with a 120 gram shaft. I do love the 716 aesthetics, and may just keep them as my spare set and flip the AP1s I have. But, essentially, to the extent there’s forgiveness in play, I would think I should find the 716 CBs noticeably easier to hit well. Otherwise, what am I spending my money on, right?

>

> I’m going to keep testing this week, and really put the 716 CBs through their paces.

>

> Long story short, though, my MP-4s are $280, my 716 CBs are $450, and my actual priorities are improving my putting, taking more lessons, and getting a 3 wood I like hitting off the deck (probably an F9). If it turns out my good strikes go my expected distances, and my bad shots aren’t noticeably better with the CBs, such that I only have 1 shot that drops 10 yards instead of 20 because I’m either making good strikes or bad strikes and not a lot of intermediate misses, then my gut says that the line between the blades and the CBs isn’t so pronounced and my mental and aesthetic preferences should be the major factor, as you say.

>

> Anyway, always appreciate these back and forths, @MelloYello. I find your advice and outlook helpful, and I’m excited to see what my game looks like at the end of the summer and into next year.

 

Honestly? Just film yourself and work on full-swing mechanics. Watch video and make your swing positions look more and more like the guys on tour. That's it. That doesn't take that much time to do but the sooner you address it, the sooner you can start getting comfortable with a better swing. Whatever your flaws are, just focus on improving them. When you're not doing that, try to improve your chipping & putting. You can do that at home on carpet.

 

Improving at golf isn't that hard. Beating mid-irons is better than nothing but you'll never actually become good that way. That was my experience.

 

You have a lot of golf ahead of you if you're just 3 years in, however it's like investing. You want to start early and be aggressive. The more grinding you do early on, the easier it becomes. You don't need launch monitor data. You need video. Fix the basic stuff and worry about spin rates later.

 

[revanant]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> >

> > For what it’s worth, I generally agree with you. I only posted the 6 irons since @Exactice808 wanted to drill into the metrics.

> >

> > I’m with you on there being a real difference between playing on course vs sim practice. Playing in the elements, with wind, off of uneven lies is vastly different from range practice off an indoor mat.

> >

> > I here you regarding speeding up my swing. I think I can do it—I get spikes to 80 mph with my 6 iron every so often. I may start a workout plan this summer with a golf focus. But partly, my mindset is that I don’t care if my 6 iron goes 145 or 155, since my ultimate bottleneck is my swing speed and I phase into 5 wood for my longer par 4s and par 5s anyway. If I’m getting the right spin and I’m hitting an iron consistently, all I care is that I pull my iron and can hit my number with accuracy. If I get the shot I want, I don’t care what the number is on the sole.

> >

> > On golf, I absolutely want to score my best. But I’m a glass-half full kind of guy. I need on-course practice, and a lot of that is just taking your lumps, seeing different lies, and learning for the future. Basically, learning course management the hard way. : ) But, even a bad round is something I just chalk up to extra practice. I’m not a club thrower—I’m the guy who thinks about his good shots all week, even when he shoots 102, and looks forward to more good shots the next weekend.

> >

> > In terms of improvement, I’m losing a lot of strokes with balls out of bounds and putting/chipping. By and large, it’s not my iron play.

> >

> > I played a round on Saturday down in my Miami with my spare T-zoids. I’m not as familiar with my distances for those clubs. I lost one ball in the water for being too long, 3 balls out of bounds, two balls sailed the green with my pw, and I couldn’t buy a putt—only one putt got me up and down in a single stroke. I also had two 4 irons that hit middle of the green but didn’t stick—I’m not sure what my spin was, but I was short a club with that set (it was a 155 carry shot, and that’s normally a comfortable 5 iron for me with around 5k spin). I did make par nonetheless on one of the holes—it was my lone 1-putt. More importantly, I made $4 bucks on match play with my handicap—my scores are usually pars and bogeys, with a few blowups, so match play suits me.

> >

> > On iron play, though, I’m not a bad ball striker. I think I should be able to see a difference between my 716 CBs with a 95 gram shaft and my MP-4s with a 120 gram shaft. I do love the 716 aesthetics, and may just keep them as my spare set and flip the AP1s I have. But, essentially, to the extent there’s forgiveness in play, I would think I should find the 716 CBs noticeably easier to hit well. Otherwise, what am I spending my money on, right?

> >

> > I’m going to keep testing this week, and really put the 716 CBs through their paces.

> >

> > Long story short, though, my MP-4s are $280, my 716 CBs are $450, and my actual priorities are improving my putting, taking more lessons, and getting a 3 wood I like hitting off the deck (probably an F9). If it turns out my good strikes go my expected distances, and my bad shots aren’t noticeably better with the CBs, such that I only have 1 shot that drops 10 yards instead of 20 because I’m either making good strikes or bad strikes and not a lot of intermediate misses, then my gut says that the line between the blades and the CBs isn’t so pronounced and my mental and aesthetic preferences should be the major factor, as you say.

> >

> > Anyway, always appreciate these back and forths, @MelloYello. I find your advice and outlook helpful, and I’m excited to see what my game looks like at the end of the summer and into next year.

>

> Honestly? Just film yourself and work on full-swing mechanics. Watch video and make your swing positions look more and more like the guys on tour. That's it. That doesn't take that much time to do but the sooner you address it, the sooner you can start getting comfortable with a better swing. Whatever your flaws are, just focus on improving them. When you're not doing that, try to improve your chipping & putting. You can do that at home on carpet.

>

> Improving at golf isn't that hard. Beating mid-irons is better than nothing but you'll never actually become good that way. That was my experience.

>

> You have a lot of golf ahead of you if you're just 3 years in, however it's like investing. You want to start early and be aggressive. The more grinding you do early on, the easier it becomes. You don't need launch monitor data. You need video. Fix the basic stuff and worry about spin rates later.

>

Agreed. I try to prioritize on-course practice as much as possible. In the sim, I’ve actually shifted my practice to playing courses. It’s good about recreating the rhythm of golf—I go through my bag at random, rather than hitting a bunch of mid-irons in a row.

 

[MelloYello]

> @revanant

> Agreed. I try to prioritize on-course practice as much as possible. In the sim, I’ve actually shifted my practice to playing courses. It’s good about recreating the rhythm of golf—I go through my bag at random, rather than hitting a bunch of mid-irons in a row.

>

 

Oh, that's nice. Do please explain to me the circumstances which afford you that kind of simulator access, LOL!

 

[MtlJeff]

I hit my cobra F8+ like dog crap this weekend.

 

G400 max has been promoted to full time driver. Using a hacker club baaaaaby

 

 

[MtlJeff]

Wow you can't write c r a p. That's not even a swear word!

[mahonie]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > >

> > > > Mello, taking all the points you’ve said about your game (and everyone else’s for that matter) I cannot for the life of me understand why you haven’t got at least a set of AP1s in your bag! You’ve just admitted that you can’t really hit 3 and 4 irons, which is no surprise as your CBs have a relatively high CG. Now that you seem to be enjoying the high launch and forgiveness of hybrids, the next natural step seems to be the AP1, particularly if score is so important to you. However, a little anecdote that might influence your decision:

> > > >

> > >

> > > Read the thread. No reason we can't be serious. I don't mind discussing equipment with folks but you gotta be serious. If you're talking to me about AP1's and saying I "can't hit long irons" it's obvious that you're being sarcastic and snarky.

> > >

> > > My question is why? Why do that? Why can't we be serious while still being friendly? Why do you choose to be sarcastic about it?

> > >

> > > Just seem inappropriate. Bad for the forum.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You posted that blade users weren’t open to hearing suggestions. Just wanted to see what you’re reaction was when I made a suggestion to you. Pot...kettle...black are a few words that spring to mind.

> >

> > Point made...we can go back to being friendly now ;-)

>

> So now I'm expected to entertain your nonsense ****-posting?

>

> Good to know. That's what the ignore list is for.

>

> See you around...or I guess I won't. Nice knowing ya. Thanks for wasting all of our time.

 

You’re fine dishing it but can’t take it back and that figures really.

 

Never mind...just try and enjoy your golf. Perhaps when @revenant flips those AP1s, they’ll find a good home ;-)

[dciccoritti]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @mahonie said:

> > > >

> > > > Mello, taking all the points you’ve said about your game (and everyone else’s for that matter) I cannot for the life of me understand why you haven’t got at least a set of AP1s in your bag! You’ve just admitted that you can’t really hit 3 and 4 irons, which is no surprise as your CBs have a relatively high CG. Now that you seem to be enjoying the high launch and forgiveness of hybrids, the next natural step seems to be the AP1, particularly if score is so important to you. However, a little anecdote that might influence your decision:

> > > >

> > >

> > > Read the thread. No reason we can't be serious. I don't mind discussing equipment with folks but you gotta be serious. If you're talking to me about AP1's and saying I "can't hit long irons" it's obvious that you're being sarcastic and snarky.

> > >

> > > My question is why? Why do that? Why can't we be serious while still being friendly? Why do you choose to be sarcastic about it?

> > >

> > > Just seem inappropriate. Bad for the forum.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You posted that blade users weren’t open to hearing suggestions. Just wanted to see what you’re reaction was when I made a suggestion to you. Pot...kettle...black are a few words that spring to mind.

> >

> > Point made...we can go back to being friendly now ;-)

>

> So now I'm expected to entertain your nonsense ****-posting?

>

> Good to know. That's what the ignore list is for.

>

> See you around...or I guess I won't. Nice knowing ya. Thanks for wasting all of our time.

 

Speak for yourself. @mahonie has never wasted my time. I consider his posts genuine, insightful and informative. Always a pleasure to read :-)

 

[Nard_S]

> @revanant said:

> > @Nard_S said:

> > Revanant,

> > Work on gaining swing speed, then control of path. You don't need blades for any of that, you might like blades better for a number of reasons and a significant one is they tend to have more heft. PX 6.0 is plenty of shaft, maybe a shaft in same weight class but with softer bend profile is more judicious. But spend doe & effort on the aspect of full swing speed. Give that the priority. 3 years in, learn the right things now because to unwind bad habits later is incredibly hard to do. $500 in lessons is worth thousands chasing a better game with gear, be them SGI or traditional MB's.

> >

> > I play blades for their naked honesty and draw a line that game improvement stops at fingers and toes. It's not everyones' cup of tea to view it in such stark terms. But this imposes constraints that keep focus where it belongs. That's not "score". Anybody can get to low singles with a swing that has significant problems, I did that and all I can say is "big whoop". Once you get there, it's oddly even more frustrating not to be better. Takes a greater soundness of mechanics and method to go under 5, start playing in youth is major factor to go scratch, start playing as an adult, the barrier is near impossible and there's real anatomical, neurological reasons for it. So don't look for the fix in tools and gear, look for it in the body and mind because that's where the epicenter of peak capability resides. Good luck.

>

> I’m with you on this, by and large. I like playing less forgiving irons, because they tell me when I **** up and don’t sugarcoat a miss. Likewise, if I get a nice strike, I know I’m doing things right and should repeat that swing/reinforce those mechanics. The net result has been that I’ve seen a lot of improvement very fast in the past few months, and a lot more confidence with my iron play.

>

> To your point about shafts, I’m really not worried about it. I like the project x—I don’t find them stiff or uncomfortable, and I can make good contact with them. I did a pretty extensive shaft test with club champion, and the basic takeaway was that none of the shafts I played altered my head results and a $200-$300 reshaft was too much money for very tiny gains. To your point, I’d rather focus on lessons and practice rather than gear.

 

Shafts are ultimately more consequential. You swing to them, matching window of swing to window of profile can pull things in positive direction and lack of match to negative swing habits. Irons heads do no such thing, they might give a bigger hit zone to work in but the right shaft will cluster impact more substantially and reduce path variance a lot, enough to negate much of MOI's benefits. Credit & discredit is over weighted towards iron head design, shaft profile and weight specs do not get enough attention. Best change for me was not MB or CB, it was putting right shaft & spec setup in hands.

[revanant]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant

> > Agreed. I try to prioritize on-course practice as much as possible. In the sim, I’ve actually shifted my practice to playing courses. It’s good about recreating the rhythm of golf—I go through my bag at random, rather than hitting a bunch of mid-irons in a row.

> >

>

> Oh, that's nice. Do please explain to me the circumstances which afford you that kind of simulator access, LOL!

>

My apartment building has a built-in golf simulator as part of the gym. 24-7 access and it’s rarely in use. : )

 

[Myherobobhope]

> @MtlJeff said:

> I hit my cobra F8+ like dog **** this weekend.

>

> G400 max has been promoted to full time driver. Using a hacker club baaaaaby

>

>

 

Behold the dumpster fire you have created!

 

We've got a PING demo day this Friday, I'm hoping they have the new 410 LST... I also want to try their crossovers and woods... My irons and wedges are set for the season (just need to buy the clubs!). Top of my bag might end up PING.... I hit the GAPR yesterday and liked it, though... I need to figure out what I want to do at the long end of my bag overall. I'm replacing 4i, 3h, 3w and Driver... no idea how long I'll hit my new 5i (probably around 200y)... so I'll probably be hoping to get 220, 240 and 260 out of the three fairway options, but I'd love the 240 club to be a driving iron of some sort for into the wind shots that I struggle with off the tee... I'm going to go with whatever gets the job done and doesn't have insane misses.

[MelloYello]

> @revanant said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @revanant

> > > Agreed. I try to prioritize on-course practice as much as possible. In the sim, I’ve actually shifted my practice to playing courses. It’s good about recreating the rhythm of golf—I go through my bag at random, rather than hitting a bunch of mid-irons in a row.

> > >

> >

> > Oh, that's nice. Do please explain to me the circumstances which afford you that kind of simulator access, LOL!

> >

> My apartment building has a built-in golf simulator as part of the gym. 24-7 access and it’s rarely in use. : )

>

 

Wow. That is insanely awesome.

[kiwihacker]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @revanant

> > > > Agreed. I try to prioritize on-course practice as much as possible. In the sim, I’ve actually shifted my practice to playing courses. It’s good about recreating the rhythm of golf—I go through my bag at random, rather than hitting a bunch of mid-irons in a row.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh, that's nice. Do please explain to me the circumstances which afford you that kind of simulator access, LOL!

> > >

> > My apartment building has a built-in golf simulator as part of the gym. 24-7 access and it’s rarely in use. : )

> >

>

> Wow. That is insanely awesome.

 

Yeah it sure is! I'm very jealous! :)

[revanant]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> > > @MelloYello said:

> > > > @revanant

> > > > Agreed. I try to prioritize on-course practice as much as possible. In the sim, I’ve actually shifted my practice to playing courses. It’s good about recreating the rhythm of golf—I go through my bag at random, rather than hitting a bunch of mid-irons in a row.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Oh, that's nice. Do please explain to me the circumstances which afford you that kind of simulator access, LOL!

> > >

> > My apartment building has a built-in golf simulator as part of the gym. 24-7 access and it’s rarely in use. : )

> >

>

> Wow. That is insanely awesome.

 

Yeah--it's mainly the reason I'm doing so much iron testing/club testing. I'm trying to take advantage of the sim as much as I can. On the bright side, it gives me an excellent handle on what my numbers look like and what happens with each swing I take--i.e, I can pinpoint if I miss right because I leave my clubface open, or because of out-to-in swing-path, or because I got a clubface twist from poor contact, etc. I get that same info whether I'm hitting balls onto a virtual driving range or playing virtual St. Andrews.

[kiwihacker]

Just a question for the blades players on this thread. Does a small head players cb also work for you? My first experiment with blades was a mixed set MP-30 3-5 and MP-33 6-PW. They blended beautifully and I would have been just as happy playing the MP-30 in the 6-PW. They both looked and felt sweet to me. The appearance at address was very similar.

[revanant]

> @kiwihacker said:

> Just a question for the blades players on this thread. Does a small head players cb also work for you? My first experiment with blades was a mixed set MP-30 3-5 and MP-33 6-PW. They blended beautifully and I would have been just as happy playing the MP-30 in the 6-PW. They both looked and felt sweet to me. The appearance at address was very similar.

 

So, I'm testing this now. My initial impressions are that a good player's cb can fit my eye very well. I put the 716 CBs against my MP-4s and Hogan Redlines, and they compare very favorably.

[mahonie]

> @kiwihacker said:

> Just a question for the blades players on this thread. Does a small head players cb also work for you? My first experiment with blades was a mixed set MP-30 3-5 and MP-33 6-PW. They blended beautifully and I would have been just as happy playing the MP-30 in the 6-PW. They both looked and felt sweet to me. The appearance at address was very similar.

 

I have a set of MacGregor MT Pro Cs in my back up bag that I put into play every now and again. They are set up exactly the same as my MP4s. I am hard pressed to tell the difference at address and they play exactly like my MP4s too with 2 exceptions: the peak height is slightly higher (which could be down to the non-conforming grooves and hence more spin) and anything hit high on the face is dead as there is hardly any metal behind the ball above the sweetspot. My misses with either club are pretty much the same but mishits feel harsher with the MP4s. My proximity with the MP4s is slightly better and I prefer the feel of the Mizzys on good shots...the Macs are very soft feeling.

 

As an aside, Wilson Staff created one of the first combo sets in the early 1990s, the Progressives. 2 to 7-iron players CB, 8-SW blade. (I was fit into these when I actually went for a fitting for Ping Eye 2s but that’s a different story). I played them for 12 years. Appearance at address was exactly the same as it should be for a properly blended set. Regret giving them away tbh.

 

 

 

[pinestreetgolf]

> For what it's worth, if the difference we're talking about is maybe one to three strokes saved in a round, then I think the whole blade vs. cb controversy is massively overblown in the blades favor. In other words, nobody should be losing sleep over iron choice.

You're making the same statistical mistake everyone makes in these debates. "Rounds" is an artificial construct. There is nothing that says half the strokes for the season won't all come in the same round, for example, and you will set a new personal best or break 80 for the first time or whatever. Nothing will take off a stroke "per round". It doesn't work like that.

 

Our brains want us to put strokes over time into boxes like "per hole" and "per round" but that isn't how math interacts with Earth. Its a random distribution over how often you play. It could all come at once.

 

A much more accurate way to phrase this would be "if you don't play very often you shouldn't lose sleep over your iron choice". The more often you play the more important it is. It has much more to do with frequency of play than skill.

[tannyhoban]

My takeaway. I'm adding free golf simulator to my list must haves when apartment hunting.

[Exactice808]

@revanant

perfect! Yups looks like at least the shot window is there. Couple thoughts

1) Launch is a little low (peak height looks to be about 63ft) , height is your friend with the lower swing speed ( 16.6* launch for a 6 iron vs the 19 or 20* (74ft) that would really bring up your peak height)

 

2) Spin while low helps for distance to an extent you are hitting low bullets that have a shallow decent and less spin to hold greens. so a little more spin couldnt hurt. 6000rpms vs the average 5770

 

OK shot data out the window couple swing thoughts.

 

1) Shot dispersion as you edified that you were concerned about horizontal dispersion right?

First picture shows 33.7 yards dispersion 101.1ft dispersion thats a pretty wide dispersion number for 140 yard shot. Average green diameter is about 30 yards, So at a par 3 scoring distance (150 yard average for a generic par 3) You are potentially missing the green. the next follow are , 17.9, 15.2 (Average mean is still 22.2y dispersion)

https://www.pgatour.com/stats/stat.339.html

The lowest guy 214th place, 125-150 yards from the green is 31ft. thats 10 yards dispersion. I dont expect you to be that point, but at least maybe strive to have that right?

 

2) secondly I see the spin numbers on that specific screen shot 6758 high, 4784 low, this does indicate strike variance. This is edified by the other screen shots, you have high 6200 and lows 4300 that wide spin variance for a shot window is pretty inconsistent. For Irons and distance control your spin is the likely factor of getting the shot to go the consistent distance you want. Again for a 6 iron going 145 carry that you want, with 6000rpms of spin is the generic goal, but if you got a shot that is skulled with 4300rpms for an intended 6 iron you have no idea where or when the shot will stop.

 

3) So Shafts help with tempo and timing as well. What kind of tempo are you swinging with? Deliberate or controlled? Medium or explosive and or hard? As stated by others opinion. I agree to an extent that looking for shaft options as well might be something to consider. MOST demo clubs are in 6 irons and that means there are a sea of options. KBS, DG S300, PX, NS pro etc..... While you seem to be stuck on the PX 6.0 for what ever reason the edification of shot dispersion is there. So honestly I cant imagine you would swing any worse than a PX 5.0 or NS pro 950gh, or KBS regulars. I know you stated that you hit the PX 6.0 fine..... but I am curious why your dispersion is so wide for a 140 yard shot. 22yard average again in my opinion is wide.

 

Anyways as far a data goes I dont think I can offer much more.

Practice and lessons should help key in the swing to find out why. I am with the other poster as a shaft evaluation to find the shot window, gather your tempo and load profiles may benefit more than you think but again that just a humble opinion from the observed data.

 

Good Luck!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Exactice808]

> @kiwihacker said:

> Just a question for the blades players on this thread. Does a small head players cb also work for you? My first experiment with blades was a mixed set MP-30 3-5 and MP-33 6-PW. They blended beautifully and I would have been just as happy playing the MP-30 in the 6-PW. They both looked and felt sweet to me. The appearance at address was very similar.

 

I had a chance a while back to actually test. First lets set the tone;

1) MB is an MB no cavity not pockets just MB

2) Players Cavity is like a Titliest CB, Slight perimeter weight, traditional lofts, lies, offset. thin soled and thinner topline

3) Players GI is like an AP2, or Mizuno 919 forged, pocket cavities, slightly larger soles, slight offset at the long irons.

 

OK So difference I saw or experienced with Players Cavity. Height. Club for club, loft for loft the ball would go a little higher. couple of ft higher. This was translated by the slight increase of ball speed and distance gain. a 46* PCB vs MB, was about 6ft higher and about 3 yards longer, touch less spin about 100rpms.

 

A players CB though is still very demanding the slight cavity did not seem to net much gains on a miss hit. If it was missed it would still be penalized. THE only benefit that I could take a way, was the slight groove low shots. They did NOT lose as much like on a MB, they still kept their flight so maintained some height and carry. Did not spin as much as a missed MB. So if you tend to thin the ball or hit more lower shots than higher shots the CB's can help on the low faced missed and also increase flight just a touch. that was my take, when demoing the 714 CB's.

 

[dciccoritti]

> @kiwihacker said:

> Just a question for the blades players on this thread. Does a small head players cb also work for you? My first experiment with blades was a mixed set MP-30 3-5 and MP-33 6-PW. They blended beautifully and I would have been just as happy playing the MP-30 in the 6-PW. They both looked and felt sweet to me. The appearance at address was very similar.

 

718 CB's are absolutely delicious. I could game those all the way up to PW without question :-)

[Tree Levino]

> @MelloYello said:

> > @revanant said:

> >

> > For what it’s worth, I generally agree with you. I only posted the 6 irons since @Exactice808 wanted to drill into the metrics.

> >

> > I’m with you on there being a real difference between playing on course vs sim practice. Playing in the elements, with wind, off of uneven lies is vastly different from range practice off an indoor mat.

> >

> > I here you regarding speeding up my swing. I think I can do it—I get spikes to 80 mph with my 6 iron every so often. I may start a workout plan this summer with a golf focus. But partly, my mindset is that I don’t care if my 6 iron goes 145 or 155, since my ultimate bottleneck is my swing speed and I phase into 5 wood for my longer par 4s and par 5s anyway. If I’m getting the right spin and I’m hitting an iron consistently, all I care is that I pull my iron and can hit my number with accuracy. If I get the shot I want, I don’t care what the number is on the sole.

> >

> > On golf, I absolutely want to score my best. But I’m a glass-half full kind of guy. I need on-course practice, and a lot of that is just taking your lumps, seeing different lies, and learning for the future. Basically, learning course management the hard way. : ) But, even a bad round is something I just chalk up to extra practice. I’m not a club thrower—I’m the guy who thinks about his good shots all week, even when he shoots 102, and looks forward to more good shots the next weekend.

> >

> > In terms of improvement, I’m losing a lot of strokes with balls out of bounds and putting/chipping. By and large, it’s not my iron play.

> >

> > I played a round on Saturday down in my Miami with my spare T-zoids. I’m not as familiar with my distances for those clubs. I lost one ball in the water for being too long, 3 balls out of bounds, two balls sailed the green with my pw, and I couldn’t buy a putt—only one putt got me up and down in a single stroke. I also had two 4 irons that hit middle of the green but didn’t stick—I’m not sure what my spin was, but I was short a club with that set (it was a 155 carry shot, and that’s normally a comfortable 5 iron for me with around 5k spin). I did make par nonetheless on one of the holes—it was my lone 1-putt. More importantly, I made $4 bucks on match play with my handicap—my scores are usually pars and bogeys, with a few blowups, so match play suits me.

> >

> > On iron play, though, I’m not a bad ball striker. I think I should be able to see a difference between my 716 CBs with a 95 gram shaft and my MP-4s with a 120 gram shaft. I do love the 716 aesthetics, and may just keep them as my spare set and flip the AP1s I have. But, essentially, to the extent there’s forgiveness in play, I would think I should find the 716 CBs noticeably easier to hit well. Otherwise, what am I spending my money on, right?

> >

> > I’m going to keep testing this week, and really put the 716 CBs through their paces.

> >

> > Long story short, though, my MP-4s are $280, my 716 CBs are $450, and my actual priorities are improving my putting, taking more lessons, and getting a 3 wood I like hitting off the deck (probably an F9). If it turns out my good strikes go my expected distances, and my bad shots aren’t noticeably better with the CBs, such that I only have 1 shot that drops 10 yards instead of 20 because I’m either making good strikes or bad strikes and not a lot of intermediate misses, then my gut says that the line between the blades and the CBs isn’t so pronounced and my mental and aesthetic preferences should be the major factor, as you say.

> >

> > Anyway, always appreciate these back and forths, @MelloYello. I find your advice and outlook helpful, and I’m excited to see what my game looks like at the end of the summer and into next year.

>

> Honestly? Just film yourself and work on full-swing mechanics. Watch video and make your swing positions look more and more like the guys on tour. That's it. That doesn't take that much time to do but the sooner you address it, the sooner you can start getting comfortable with a better swing. Whatever your flaws are, just focus on improving them. When you're not doing that, try to improve your chipping & putting. You can do that at home on carpet.

>

> Improving at golf isn't that hard. Beating mid-irons is better than nothing but you'll never actually become good that way. That was my experience.

>

> You have a lot of golf ahead of you if you're just 3 years in, however it's like investing. You want to start early and be aggressive. The more grinding you do early on, the easier it becomes. You don't need launch monitor data. You need video. Fix the basic stuff and worry about spin rates later.

>

 

Agree with Mellos comments here. I think getting focused too much on data could be a negative thing - especially at such a high HC. Golf is a lot of feels and doing video drilling is probably the best option. I was lucky and it came very naturally to me, however I'm the opposite of you and I get upset with myself for bad shots and it takes an exceptional shot for me to feel satisfied. I hit 10 greens today and shot 81 but it didn't feel good. Left a lot out there. Maybe being hard on myself is a bad thing but it helped me improve very fast. I know we've had this discussion before but I really think you are doing yourself a disservice if you're genuinely only getting 145ish out of a 6 iron on good hits. The game is a lot easier if the course seems shorter. After adapting to my new clubs, I'm hitting 155 as my stock 8 iron. The problem with hitting a 6 that short is that either your gapping will get out of whack between 4i and 5w or you just completely lose the ability to play long holes. The other thing that should be touched is your comments about putting and chipping. I don't believe that just counting putts or up-and-downs is a good way to keep stats. Your putting and chipping could be bad because your proximity to the hole/misses are larger than they could be if you were hitting a shorter iron that gets you more distance into the green. I know I'm more accurate with an 8 iron than a 6 iron. You losing drives OB is a whole other issue and something lessons could help. I will say that I would generally rather miss short and right than long and left. I have a good amount of speed and I do miss long sometimes and absolutely hate it. Lots of trouble you can get into. Short and right fringe though not 20 yards short in some water...

[IamMarkMac]

> @pinestreetgolf said:

> > For what it's worth, if the difference we're talking about is maybe one to three strokes saved in a round, then I think the whole blade vs. cb controversy is massively overblown in the blades favor. In other words, nobody should be losing sleep over iron choice.

> You're making the same statistical mistake everyone makes in these debates. "Rounds" is an artificial construct. There is nothing that says half the strokes for the season won't all come in the same round, for example, and you will set a new personal best or break 80 for the first time or whatever. Nothing will take off a stroke "per round". It doesn't work like that.

>

> Our brains want us to put strokes over time into boxes like "per hole" and "per round" but that isn't how math interacts with Earth. Its a random distribution over how often you play. It could all come at once.

>

> A much more accurate way to phrase this would be "if you don't play very often you shouldn't lose sleep over your iron choice". The more often you play the more important it is. It has much more to do with frequency of play than skill.

I get the fallacy but you do need to frame performance somehow and that works for a lot of people, even though it’s not the most accurate.

With regard to having marginal difference in irons as a high handicapper, I get that completely. Your ballstriking is pretty poor at that stage that, as forgiving as it is, you’ll have days where you chunk/skull/shank even SGI irons. So no difference from blades at that point.

 

 

[kiwihacker]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @kiwihacker said:

> > Just a question for the blades players on this thread. Does a small head players cb also work for you? My first experiment with blades was a mixed set MP-30 3-5 and MP-33 6-PW. They blended beautifully and I would have been just as happy playing the MP-30 in the 6-PW. They both looked and felt sweet to me. The appearance at address was very similar.

>

> I had a chance a while back to actually test. First lets set the tone;

> 1) MB is an MB no cavity not pockets just MB

> 2) Players Cavity is like a Titliest CB, Slight perimeter weight, traditional lofts, lies, offset. thin soled and thinner topline

> 3) Players GI is like an AP2, or Mizuno 919 forged, pocket cavities, slightly larger soles, slight offset at the long irons.

>

> OK So difference I saw or experienced with Players Cavity. Height. Club for club, loft for loft the ball would go a little higher. couple of ft higher. This was translated by the slight increase of ball speed and distance gain. a 46* PCB vs MB, was about 6ft higher and about 3 yards longer, touch less spin about 100rpms.

>

> **A players CB though is still very demanding the slight cavity did not seem to net much gains on a miss hit.** If it was missed it would still be penalized. THE only benefit that I could take a way, was the slight groove low shots. They did NOT lose as much like on a MB, they still kept their flight so maintained some height and carry. Did not spin as much as a missed MB. So if you tend to thin the ball or hit more lower shots than higher shots the CB's can help on the low faced missed and also increase flight just a touch. that was my take, when demoing the 714 CB's.

>

 

Totally agree with the bold part. Very little difference yet the whole blades v cavity back argument is based around the idea the blades are so much harder to hit.

 

Would the anti blades brigade get as upset if we play a players CB like the Titleist CB and insist we should instead be using an easier to hit GI design like the AP 2, 3 or 1?

[Exactice808]

> @kiwihacker said:

>

> Totally agree with the bold part. Very little difference yet the whole blades v cavity back argument is based around the idea the blades are so much harder to hit.

>

> Would the anti blades brigade get as upset if we play a players CB like the Titleist CB and insist we should instead be using an easier to hit GI design like the AP 2, 3 or 1?

But but .... but , CB's with their perimeter weight moved a significant amount to change the CoG allow for help in the launch department..... IT was SO significant.........Even in the Titleist CB models, they moved so much weight, more CoG moved...... to aid in ball flight.......... yeah........ok!

 

[mahonie]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @kiwihacker said:

> >

> > Totally agree with the bold part. Very little difference yet the whole blades v cavity back argument is based around the idea the blades are so much harder to hit.

> >

> > Would the anti blades brigade get as upset if we play a players CB like the Titleist CB and insist we should instead be using an easier to hit GI design like the AP 2, 3 or 1?

> But but .... but , CB's with their perimeter weight moved a significant amount to change the CoG allow for help in the launch department..... IT was SO significant.........Even in the Titleist CB models WORLD more CoG moved...... to aid in ball flight...

>

I don’t hold much with the Maltby Playability Factor apart from the vertical COG measurement. With the Titleist CBs, the VCOG is relatively high, much higher than MP4s for example, which should mean that they are harder to launch...

 

[Exactice808]

> @mahonie said:

> > @Exactice808 said:

> > > @kiwihacker said:

> > >

> > > Totally agree with the bold part. Very little difference yet the whole blades v cavity back argument is based around the idea the blades are so much harder to hit.

> > >

> > > Would the anti blades brigade get as upset if we play a players CB like the Titleist CB and insist we should instead be using an easier to hit GI design like the AP 2, 3 or 1?

> > But but .... but , CB's with their perimeter weight moved a significant amount to change the CoG allow for help in the launch department..... IT was SO significant.........Even in the Titleist CB models WORLD more CoG moved...... to aid in ball flight...

> >

> I don’t hold much with the Maltby Playability Factor apart from the vertical COG measurement. With the Titleist CBs, the VCOG is relatively high, much higher than MP4s for example, which should mean that they are harder to launch...

>

 

But, but but, but... the matlby playability factor rates the CB's higher than the AP2's.... so the CB are way more Cavity back than the AP2s..... LOL!

[mahonie]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > > @Exactice808 said:

> > > > @kiwihacker said:

> > > >

> > > > Totally agree with the bold part. Very little difference yet the whole blades v cavity back argument is based around the idea the blades are so much harder to hit.

> > > >

> > > > Would the anti blades brigade get as upset if we play a players CB like the Titleist CB and insist we should instead be using an easier to hit GI design like the AP 2, 3 or 1?

> > > But but .... but , CB's with their perimeter weight moved a significant amount to change the CoG allow for help in the launch department..... IT was SO significant.........Even in the Titleist CB models WORLD more CoG moved...... to aid in ball flight...

> > >

> > I don’t hold much with the Maltby Playability Factor apart from the vertical COG measurement. With the Titleist CBs, the VCOG is relatively high, much higher than MP4s for example, which should mean that they are harder to launch...

> >

>

> But, but but, but... the matlby playability factor rates the CB's higher than the AP2's.... so the CB are way more Cavity back than the AP2s..... LOL!

 

Funny you should say that. I tested MP4s against Ping S55s, AP2s and AP1s (both 2014 models). The MP4s and S55s were very similar in terms of feel, distance drop offs on mishits and the launch monitor numbers were practically the same. AP2s, for me, were off the scale awful. Harsh feeling, mishits were going nowhere and good hits were just not that nice.

 

AP1s on the other hand were stupid easy to hit. High launch, good distance (7-iron was carrying 164ish against my usual 148ish ) and I couldn’t tell you what a mishit felt like...every hit felt the same if a bit clicky...all going slightly straight left. The issue for me was that after ten minutes I was just trying to hit them harder and harder and my dispersion was all over the place.

 

[Tree Levino]

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @kiwihacker said:

> >

> > Totally agree with the bold part. Very little difference yet the whole blades v cavity back argument is based around the idea the blades are so much harder to hit.

> >

> > Would the anti blades brigade get as upset if we play a players CB like the Titleist CB and insist we should instead be using an easier to hit GI design like the AP 2, 3 or 1?

> But but .... but , CB's with their perimeter weight moved a significant amount to change the CoG allow for help in the launch department..... IT was SO significant.........Even in the Titleist CB models, they moved so much weight, more CoG moved...... to aid in ball flight.......... yeah........ok!

>

 

Honest question - have you hit the 716 or 718 CB?