My experience gaming clubs that were designed for my handicap range

bladehunter · May 10, 2019

> @nsxguy said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @nsxguy said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > So. This question was posed in another thread. I’m curious of the opinions here. For those here who are not playing an mb. How many shots do you feel you’d lose on average if you did play an Mb? Same question on driver. If you had to go back to a 975d ish sized driver with steel shaft. How many shots would you lose ?

> > > >

> > > > This is not a start an argument question. Just curious what the opinions are. So honest question. No hidden barbs.

> > >

> > > I was going to say the question in unanswerable. But since you said "feel you'd lose", and it's just guesswork, I guess I can answer it. Then again, no matter what the number I don't want to lose THOSE shots.

> > >

> > > I'd say "a couple" (best guess).

> > >

> > > If this helps, I went over my yesterday's round and came up with, out of 4 mishit irons, there was 1 "almost surely'" lost shot, and 2 "probable" lost shots. The other one wouldn't have mattered at all.

> > >

> >

> > Thanks for the answer. Well.

> >

> > Wonder why so much hand ringing over the subject then ? Not you specifically. I was told that this would be the outcome. And while I’m not shocked that nobody has said 5 or more. I am shocked that nobody wants to answer.

> >

> > But if were talking 1-3 POSSIBLE a round , then why on earth all the debate ? What does that average to in real strokes per round over a year. Maybe 1 ??

> >

> > My opinion is that it’s impossible to quantify. You can just as easily claim you ( not you buy anybody ) feel that you gain 1-3 shots a round playing an MB. Neither can be wrong and neither can be correct.

>

> You wonder why ? I wonder why you wonder.

>

> You'd rather be a 1 or scratch (if it's 1 shot) ? I'd rather be a 4 than a 6 (if it's 2). A 15 would rather be a 12 (if 3).

>

> It should be noted that in my real life estimate of yesterday's round these were kinda sorta "OK" misses. i.e. none of them caused me additional grief, as in lost ball or in a penalty area or plugged in the face of the bunker. Not all misses are created equal.

>

> BTW, what didn't you like about the i500s ? I tried them today and hit 'em pretty well. Straighter than even my G20s but they felt sort of "numb", like I couldn't tell where on the face I was hitting it. That said they did appear to be pretty forgiving.

Just can’t like the turf interaction now that the ground is hard. Great iron. Just have red clay based courses where I’m at , very similar to hardpan Texas courses. The extra bounce just doesn’t work. It rained all winter and i loved them . But once it stopped the pure strikes stopped. Swapped back to my old trusty set and poof. Won 3 Saturday morning comps in a row. Just a night and day difference. And the irons themselves were built identical specs , shafts , weight , grips etc.

IamMarkMac · May 10, 2019

> @jpdx said:

> > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > @jpdx said:

> > > >@MtlJeff said:

> > > > So i am a low index player, and for the past couple of years i have been using clubs designed and marketed towards low index players. Basically they are forged cavity backs. Not too small a set, but not big either. On a scale of 0-10 with 0 being blades and 10 being a full set of Hybrids... the 2016 Apex Pros would be like a 3. They are essentially a nice feeling, forged set with a little bit of forgiveness.

> > > >

> > > > These are aimed at guys like 0-10 type handicaps, because they offer a bit of forgiveness (which everyone can enjoy) but also slightly narrower toplines and soles, to aid turf interaction, cutting through rough, and some trajectory control. They also feel/sound great which is nice. I have found they have basically delivered on all of these things, which is nice for me as a player in their target segment who can make good use of these features

> > > >

> > > > I have found choosing a set designed for my handicap range made a lot of sense. Has anyone else had similar experiences?

> > > How do we know the range of hdcp a certain club is made for besides the marketing? Admittedly, I haven't read the entire thread...

> > >

> > > I ask because although I probably shouldn't be playing "blades" - I suppose of a modern variety - I feel I play and score better with blades. My set of vapor fly pros I went to a fitting for purchase. they asked me questions such as my distance of my then current set, what my misses are among others...then suggested (I got a discount from a friend that works at nike and was only interested in nike clubs because of the discount) the vapor fly pros or vapor speeds as the clubs I should be playing - marketed as gi (or maybe players gi clubs) and sgi clubs. I purchased the vapor pros - "blades" as nike exited equipment (again at a huge discount through my friend at nike). there was an immediate improvement in not only feel but my GIR and other ball striking type stats. my putting didn't vary much during the rounds - if I were to review I would say my putting went from 1.9per hole to 2.1per hole (more three putts unfortunately) during the vp rounds.

> > > Do I hit the 7 of my vfp the same distance as my 7 of the vp's? no. But the loft gap is almost exactly one club difference (the 7i of the vfp is 32 the 6i of the vp is 31) and the carry difference is negligible between the two sets when comparing the clubs using lofts instead of the club number

> > >

> > > I can actually work the ball left or right (although I have problems with how much left or right it actually goes vs what I want it to go though). I have an easier time getting out of rough with the vp's than the vfp's. I can stop the ball with more consistency with the vp's

> > >

> > > I actually switch them out every now and depending on which I feel like playing for the day. Overall, even now, my numbers show I score better with the vp's.

> > >

> > > I can tell you with 100% certainty that the clubs, vapor pros, are NOT marketed to my hdcp level.

> > >

> > > Am I an anomaly?

> > >

> >

> > An anomaly? Not at all. When you have it in your mind that you play well with a set of clubs and you won't play well with another, that's what's going to happen. I'm an example of this myself: for 2 decades, I've played small head drivers (sub 300cc was my preference). I teed the ball low and though I hit it far, I was wild. Every time I used a large driver, I'd chunk the ball, swing under it or the head would be far behind and knock the ball right. It became my thing, my "I can't hit a large driver" line. More than a few people found it cool when I piped a low tee, small head driver down the fairway. To this day, I don't really remember the minimum 2 wild tee shots per game because I'd either mulligan or simply hit again quickly.

> > Nowadays, I learned to hit a large head driver. Got over my stubbornness, made the swing changes and totally see and reap the benefits of the technology. But fact is, back in the day, I was a stubborn guy that maybe or maybe not exerted the effort necessary to play with something that would ultimately help me.

> >

>

> neither set will help if I put down a bad swing. I realize that. I also realize I can play both sets. in fact i resisted playing the vp's because i always read and was informed by people that have been playing longer than i've been alive, that "blades" shouldn't be played by people in my hdcp and that they're hard to hit. i bought them and waited around 6 months before i took the plastic wrap off and another few months before i took them on the course. i was in a position where i just wanted to see what a forged club played like on the course and not on the range mat since i had never experienced forged clubs and i read on golfwrx about how forged feel is amazing.

>

> first time out with the blades i shot a few strokes better than what my avg score, had 3 more gir than my avg, was on a course I've played many many times and am very familiar with. i then went back to my vfp's for a number of rounds because i didn't want to get the new clubs dirty all the time since they are so nice and look so good. played the vp's again on that same course maybe 10 rounds later and got lazy, leaving them in the bag, and what i noticed was that my GIR's again were improved over the vfp's. this isn't a case of stubbornness where i'm saying "i can't hit sgi or gi clubs". i can. i'm not as proficient and consistent as a single hdcp...by far.

>

> not too long ago (dec/jan), i went back to the shop i bought the vfp's asking if perhaps my swing has changed where the fitting was no longer good (they have a fit for life guarantee).at that time i also did an apples to apples comparison on a trackman. the guy at the golf shop also said to me, "you shouldn't be playing blades at your hdcp level", shook his head and let me compare the clubs while checking to see if my fitment was still good on the vfp's. much to my surprise, the overall numbers were better on the vp blades than the vfp's. i got more height, better spin and more consistent distances.

>

> i also realize there are reasons why i might play the vp's better - the shaft is one. although both are dg shafts, one is the dg s300 the other is the dg pro s300.

>

> i'll tell ya though, i really like the black heads of the vfp MUCH better at address. they just look cooler - everybody's clubs are ugly (imo) shiny chrome or brushed look...but in spite of that, i play the vp's because the blades just flat out perform, for me.. play what works right?

Again I find your case to be very typical with a non-low handicapper. When you want to play with a particular set of irons, you will make it happen. You will adjust and accommodate for what you like while being simultaneously stubborn and impatient with what you don’t like. That’s absolutely fine, totally human nature and often works out alright.

nostatic · May 10, 2019

> @MelloYello said:

> > @nostatic said:

> >

> > I’ve been on a music-related forum for a long time. Some of the most vocal and opinionated guys - turns out they never gig. Which is fine - except when they’re giving “advice” on performance minutiae of gear designs for playing out, etc.

> >

> > Since humans are involved, there is no one right approach. Attitude affects performance.

> >

>

> I picked up guitar at 13yo so I've played for about 20-years. Spent a lot of time on prog/shred forums, haha. What about you?

Some of the gory details here: http://nostatic.com/

I the bedroom warriors don't bother me as long as they caveat their opinions or give context for them. Or have links in their sig or profile so one can figure out the context. But invariably there are the usual anonymous one that post stuff that is based on imagination rather than experiences...

Pepperturbo · May 10, 2019

In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

(Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

MelloYello · May 10, 2019

> @Pepperturbo said:

> (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

I think a lot of us get annoyed at having to preemptively state that _"The following is just my opinion, but..."_

By virtue of this being a forum, it's kind of a given that we're all sharing our opinions. I do feel that it makes us all the more stupid when we cave to that. It's one reason I'm going to start being a little less "nice" when I find myself in a disagreement. I'm going to say my bit and move on for the simple reason that nobody ever changes their mind on the internet anyway. If you encounter someone who thinks you're wrong you're probably best just not trying to resolve it. A little debate is fine but after a couple back-and-forth posts it becomes kind of pointless.

If someone doesn't like it they can offer a rebuttal and when it's worth a discussion, I'll happily have one.

That said, anytime you see me criticizing "anecdotal" examples, I'm chewing somebody out for using the 6-in-100 case where they should be paying attention to the 75-out-of-100 cases that make "the rule." We see too many arguments here that use the "exception" as the core principle.

bodhi555 · May 10, 2019

> @MelloYello said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

>

> I think a lot of us get annoyed at having to preemptively state that _"The following is just my opinion, but..."_

>

> By virtue of this being a forum, it's kind of a given that we're all sharing our opinions. I do feel that it makes us all the more stupid when we cave to that. It's one reason I'm going to start being a little less "nice" when I find myself in a disagreement. I'm going to say my bit and move on for the simple reason that nobody ever changes their mind on the internet anyway. If you encounter someone who thinks you're wrong you're probably best just not trying to resolve it. A little debate is fine but after a couple back-and-forth posts it becomes kind of pointless.

>

> If someone doesn't like it they can offer a rebuttal and when it's worth a discussion, I'll happily have one.

>

> That said, anytime you see me criticizing "anecdotal" examples, I'm chewing somebody out for using the 6-in-100 case where they should be paying attention to the 75-out-of-100 cases that make "the rule." We see too many arguments here that use the "exception" as the core principle.

>

I fully agree, and I'm about to demonstrate why using some completely anecdotal data ;)

But I went to the range earlier to see what state my swing was in after a couple of days off - competition on Sunday and all that. Anyway there is a green on the range about 145 away slightly uphill, so I grabbed my 8 iron and hit 15 balls to it. Of the 15, 1 was tight to the pin, 4 close, and another 6 would have left me a putt. I pushed 1 right, and flipped on 2 ending up long and left. And there was the one I came out of and caught as thin as you like, with predictable results.

Surely, in this case anyway, the one I caught thin is as much of and outlier as the one I left stiff, and hence is just as easily disregarded when it comes to choosing the tools I use to do the job? Especially as, even the shoveliest GIs in the world wouldn't have saved the one I came up and out of.

If a golfer wants to pick their clubs based on their best shots, I don't really see an issue. After all, the point of golf is to hit better shots more of the time, so use whatever you feel most comfortable doing that with.

IamMarkMac · May 11, 2019

> @Pepperturbo said:

> In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

>

> (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

"Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

Bigmean · May 11, 2019

I think anyone who thinks others with differing opinions will mislead the masses with their ramblings of “misinformation” on a forum vastly over estimate the importance these readers place on their words, and grossly underestimate what it would take for anyone following this to changing their mind an ounce from page 1.

No one is being triggered. If anything in a good way people may be triggered to try both and play both (for the 16 people left who have not tried both yet) and draw their own conclusions which is a good thing, but rest assured, a 15 cap isn’t reading how sweet blades are and switching to them and forever being a 15-18 cap over anyone’s forum words....

Myherobobhope · May 11, 2019

I’m still contemplating getting a maltby 7 iron built to my specs...

My problem is my hands are fast enough to hit the sweet spot decently, but that doesn’t mean I’m making a good swing.

IamMarkMac · May 11, 2019

> @Bigmean said:

> I think anyone who thinks others with differing opinions will mislead the masses with their ramblings of “misinformation” on a forum vastly over estimate the importance these readers place on their words, and grossly underestimate what it would take for anyone following this to changing their mind an ounce from page 1.

>

> No one is being triggered. If anything in a good way people may be triggered to try both and play both (for the 16 people left who have not tried both yet) and draw their own conclusions which is a good thing, but rest assured, a 15 cap isn’t reading how sweet blades are and switching to them and forever being a 15-18 cap over anyone’s forum words....

Doesn't matter if the masses believe it or not. If you preach something as truth that someone takes exception to, they'll be triggered. Plenty of threads here that go on for dozens of pages just because a single guy insists that a blade is factually best for a beginner because the painful mishits are better for teaching or something like that and no matter what dozens of people say, he will keep at it.

revanant · May 11, 2019

> @bodhi555 said:

> > @MelloYello said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> >

> > I think a lot of us get annoyed at having to preemptively state that _"The following is just my opinion, but..."_

> >

> > By virtue of this being a forum, it's kind of a given that we're all sharing our opinions. I do feel that it makes us all the more stupid when we cave to that. It's one reason I'm going to start being a little less "nice" when I find myself in a disagreement. I'm going to say my bit and move on for the simple reason that nobody ever changes their mind on the internet anyway. If you encounter someone who thinks you're wrong you're probably best just not trying to resolve it. A little debate is fine but after a couple back-and-forth posts it becomes kind of pointless.

> >

> > If someone doesn't like it they can offer a rebuttal and when it's worth a discussion, I'll happily have one.

> >

> > That said, anytime you see me criticizing "anecdotal" examples, I'm chewing somebody out for using the 6-in-100 case where they should be paying attention to the 75-out-of-100 cases that make "the rule." We see too many arguments here that use the "exception" as the core principle.

> >

>

> I fully agree, and I'm about to demonstrate why using some completely anecdotal data ;)

>

> But I went to the range earlier to see what state my swing was in after a couple of days off - competition on Sunday and all that. Anyway there is a green on the range about 145 away slightly uphill, so I grabbed my 8 iron and hit 15 balls to it. Of the 15, 1 was tight to the pin, 4 close, and another 6 would have left me a putt. I pushed 1 right, and flipped on 2 ending up long and left. And there was the one I came out of and caught as thin as you like, with predictable results.

>

> Surely, in this case anyway, the one I caught thin is as much of and outlier as the one I left stiff, and hence is just as easily disregarded when it comes to choosing the tools I use to do the job? Especially as, even the shoveliest GIs in the world wouldn't have saved the one I came up and out of.

>

> If a golfer wants to pick their clubs based on their best shots, I don't really see an issue. After all, the point of golf is to hit better shots more of the time, so use whatever you feel most comfortable doing that with.

I’m of a similar mindset—I think I choose irons based on what feels the best on my better shots and makes me feel like I can hit those shots confidently.

As an example, I just picked up a set of 716 CBs with Steelfiber shafts. In theory, that should be my perfect setup for forgiveness and performance. I currently have MP-4s in the bag.

I haven’t given them a fair shake yet, but I did get to put them on a range for 30 minutes. In theory, these irons offer more forgiveness and more tech than my MP-4s. In practice, I did not see that forgiveness appear. I still need to do substantial work and be careful about impact to get a good shot—otherwise, the drop offs are the same as with my MP-4s or worse. But if I’m doing that work anyway, and making good strikes, I get better results with my MP-4s—more spin, better ballflight, and subjectively, a little bit better on the aesthetics and feel.

The 716 CBs didn’t turn my bad shots into good shots and didn’t have higher launch than my MP-4s. In truth, they were hard to distinguish from my MP-4s. This kind of makes sense, as they have a higher cg than my MP-4s and have an MPF rating that’s only about 50 points higher. If I was doing an iron test, where you normally only get a few swings, I would put them below the MP-4s.

In other words, forgiveness isn’t a replacement for making a good strike to begin with. I’m going to favor the irons that I feel most confident standing over and that I find I hit the best, whether they are shovels or butter knives.

> @Bigmean said:

> I think anyone who thinks others with differing opinions will mislead the masses with their ramblings of “misinformation” on a forum vastly over estimate the importance these readers place on their words, and grossly underestimate what it would take for anyone following this to changing their mind an ounce from page 1.

>

> No one is being triggered. If anything in a good way people may be triggered to try both and play both (for the 16 people left who have not tried both yet) and draw their own conclusions which is a good thing, but rest assured, a 15 cap isn’t reading how sweet blades are and switching to them and forever being a 15-18 cap over anyone’s forum words....

I agree with this. Nobody is going to insistently stick with an iron that doesn’t perform. If person x tries blades and doesn’t like them, they’re not going to keep them in the bag based on an Internet forum.

Same with my MP-4 vs 716 CB test. If I don’t see tangible differences in forgiveness and performance, I’m going to return the 716 CB. It doesn’t matter if they have tungsten in the toe and heel or a higher moi. If I don’t hit them better than my MP-4s, I’m not going to spend hundreds of dollars on them, even if people online disagree. : )

bladehunter · May 11, 2019

> @IamMarkMac said:

> > @Pepperturbo said:

> > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> >

> > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

>

> "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

>

Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

IamMarkMac · May 11, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > >

> > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> >

> > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> >

>

> Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

>

> As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

bladehunter · May 11, 2019

> @IamMarkMac said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > >

> > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > >

> > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > >

> >

> > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> >

> > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

>

> Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

IamMarkMac · May 11, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > > >

> > > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > > >

> > > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > > >

> > >

> > > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> > >

> > > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

> >

> > Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> > Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

>

> Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

Yes, to say that someone will score better with a more forgiving club is a generalization. Even if the generalization is true, it can't possibly apply universally as a single exception will scuttle that.

That you'll score better with X clubs is marketing (and all clubs market that you'll score better with them, GI or blade). What is not marketing is the measure of how far off target a ball will be on mishits as that is scientific and repeatable of which GI clubs are demonstrably better at. But yes, I have seen the arguments that it is better to miss by 15 yards rather than 5 yards or it doesn't matter if you miss by 15 or 5 as the 15 yard miss might have avoided a bunker or something and I can't argue that. So if you're in the market for clubs that will miss by 15 yards instead of 5, people know what to buy.

dciccoritti · May 11, 2019

> @IamMarkMac said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > > > >

> > > > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> > > >

> > > > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

> > >

> > > Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> > > Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

> >

> > Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

>

> Yes, to say that someone will score better with a more forgiving club is a generalization. Even if the generalization is true, it can't possibly apply universally as a single exception will scuttle that.

> That you'll score better with X clubs is marketing (and all clubs market that you'll score better with them, GI or blade). What is not marketing is the measure of how far off target a ball will be on mishits as that is scientific and repeatable of which GI clubs are demonstrably better at. But yes, I have seen the arguments that it is better to miss by 15 yards rather than 5 yards or it doesn't matter if you miss by 15 or 5 as the 15 yard miss might have avoided a bunker or something and I can't argue that. So if you're in the market for clubs that will miss by 15 yards instead of 5, people know what to buy.

Care to show some of these examples you call scientific? Not looking for anything scientific, just some random samples or unscientific tests. Or just show me one...just one sample of an extremely similar mishit that that shows a difference of 5 and 15 yards.

Oh and by the way, I don't care what you think or say, I want you to show me something...anything. Key word being 'show'. I'll wait.

IamMarkMac · May 12, 2019

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > > > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> > > > >

> > > > > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> > > > Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

> > >

> > > Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

> >

> > Yes, to say that someone will score better with a more forgiving club is a generalization. Even if the generalization is true, it can't possibly apply universally as a single exception will scuttle that.

> > That you'll score better with X clubs is marketing (and all clubs market that you'll score better with them, GI or blade). What is not marketing is the measure of how far off target a ball will be on mishits as that is scientific and repeatable of which GI clubs are demonstrably better at. But yes, I have seen the arguments that it is better to miss by 15 yards rather than 5 yards or it doesn't matter if you miss by 15 or 5 as the 15 yard miss might have avoided a bunker or something and I can't argue that. So if you're in the market for clubs that will miss by 15 yards instead of 5, people know what to buy.

>

> Care to show some of these examples you call scientific? Not looking for anything scientific, just some random samples or unscientific tests. Or just show me one...just one sample of an extremely similar mishit that that shows a difference of 5 and 15 yards.

>

> Oh and by the way, I don't care what you think or say, I want you to show me something...anything. Key word being 'show'. I'll wait.

I don't care to show you because, by far, the principle of GI clubs being more forgiving than players clubs is the standard and believe me, I can say that will full confidence that the larger body of people will agree with me. Can you say with a straight face that most of the golfing world holds your point of view? I don't have to disprove you, you have to disprove me if you're going to make a non-anecdotal statement.

If I exert one minute of my time to give credence to you, I may as well go around collecting research to show a flat-earther the world is round.

dciccoritti · May 12, 2019

> @IamMarkMac said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > > > > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

> > > > >

> > > > > Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> > > > > Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

> > >

> > > Yes, to say that someone will score better with a more forgiving club is a generalization. Even if the generalization is true, it can't possibly apply universally as a single exception will scuttle that.

> > > That you'll score better with X clubs is marketing (and all clubs market that you'll score better with them, GI or blade). What is not marketing is the measure of how far off target a ball will be on mishits as that is scientific and repeatable of which GI clubs are demonstrably better at. But yes, I have seen the arguments that it is better to miss by 15 yards rather than 5 yards or it doesn't matter if you miss by 15 or 5 as the 15 yard miss might have avoided a bunker or something and I can't argue that. So if you're in the market for clubs that will miss by 15 yards instead of 5, people know what to buy.

> >

> > Care to show some of these examples you call scientific? Not looking for anything scientific, just some random samples or unscientific tests. Or just show me one...just one sample of an extremely similar mishit that that shows a difference of 5 and 15 yards.

> >

> > Oh and by the way, I don't care what you think or say, I want you to show me something...anything. Key word being 'show'. I'll wait.

>

> I don't care to show you because, by far, the principle of GI clubs being more forgiving than players clubs is the standard and believe me, I can say that will full confidence that the larger body of people will agree with me. Can you say with a straight face that most of the golfing world holds your point of view? I don't have to disprove you, you have to disprove me if you're going to make a non-anecdotal statement.

> If I exert one minute of my time to give credence to you, I may as well go around collecting research to show a flat-earther the world is round.

Not surprised by your response..in fact it's EXACTLY what I knew you'd say. Because it's guys like you that are so blinded they can't even read. My last line said...and I repeat "I don't care what you think or say, I want you to show me something...anything."

Want me to show you some not so bad toe hits losing up to 20 yards on a strike with your so called forgiving clubs?

Here?

How about blade mishits that don't lose anymore yards that SGI irons?'

Here?

Don't make me laugh bud. I've played 588 Altitudes and G30's and MY experience mirrors all that can be 'shown' and does not even remotely mirror the crap spouted by the few here on WRX. The few that simply don't trust that a blade or a players CB will do everything a GI and SGI will do AND BETTER!!

Too much BS talk about forgiveness and not enough talk about ball flight optimization and trust/comfort in your equipment when you're standing over the ball. Like I said, lack of trust causes anxiety and anxiety is a swing killer.

Me I feel zero anxiety. I know my 6 iron which is 2 degrees weak will fly 185 as long as my move is good. And if I don't execute no GI or SGI club is going to be any better.

Oh and just a side note, the word 'forgiveness' is a very common word when it comes to religion...not science ;-)

bladehunter · May 12, 2019

> @IamMarkMac said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > > > >

> > > > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> > > >

> > > > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

> > >

> > > Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> > > Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

> >

> > Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

>

> Yes, to say that someone will score better with a more forgiving club is a generalization. Even if the generalization is true, it can't possibly apply universally as a single exception will scuttle that.

> That you'll score better with X clubs is marketing (and all clubs market that you'll score better with them, GI or blade). What is not marketing is the measure of how far off target a ball will be on mishits as that is scientific and repeatable of which GI clubs are demonstrably better at. But yes, I have seen the arguments that it is better to miss by 15 yards rather than 5 yards or it doesn't matter if you miss by 15 or 5 as the 15 yard miss might have avoided a bunker or something and I can't argue that. So if you're in the market for clubs that will miss by 15 yards instead of 5, people know what to buy.

That’s my point though. It’s not a proven thing. It’s not a zero sum Deal. If it were no pro playing for a living would ever play anything except the most “ forgiving “ thing available. And why ? They’d just make an easy 2 putt par for any approach “ miss “ and go on. But. It doesn’t work that way. What forgives the 18 handicaps constant fat , toe strike also impedes the pure strike of a pro or elite am. Two extreme examples. Sure. But it’s the double standard that says those two extreme can’t be true. But the issue is. They are both true.

IamMarkMac · May 12, 2019

> @dciccoritti said:

> > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > @dciccoritti said:

> > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > > > > > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> > > > > > Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

> > > > >

> > > > > Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, to say that someone will score better with a more forgiving club is a generalization. Even if the generalization is true, it can't possibly apply universally as a single exception will scuttle that.

> > > > That you'll score better with X clubs is marketing (and all clubs market that you'll score better with them, GI or blade). What is not marketing is the measure of how far off target a ball will be on mishits as that is scientific and repeatable of which GI clubs are demonstrably better at. But yes, I have seen the arguments that it is better to miss by 15 yards rather than 5 yards or it doesn't matter if you miss by 15 or 5 as the 15 yard miss might have avoided a bunker or something and I can't argue that. So if you're in the market for clubs that will miss by 15 yards instead of 5, people know what to buy.

> > >

> > > Care to show some of these examples you call scientific? Not looking for anything scientific, just some random samples or unscientific tests. Or just show me one...just one sample of an extremely similar mishit that that shows a difference of 5 and 15 yards.

> > >

> > > Oh and by the way, I don't care what you think or say, I want you to show me something...anything. Key word being 'show'. I'll wait.

> >

> > I don't care to show you because, by far, the principle of GI clubs being more forgiving than players clubs is the standard and believe me, I can say that will full confidence that the larger body of people will agree with me. Can you say with a straight face that most of the golfing world holds your point of view? I don't have to disprove you, you have to disprove me if you're going to make a non-anecdotal statement.

> > If I exert one minute of my time to give credence to you, I may as well go around collecting research to show a flat-earther the world is round.

>

> Not surprised by your response..in fact it's EXACTLY what I knew you'd say. Because it's guys like you that are so blinded they can't even read. My last line said...and I repeat "I don't care what you think or say, I want you to show me something...anything."

>

> Want me to show you some not so bad toe hits losing up to 20 yards on a strike with your so called forgiving clubs?

> Here?

>

> How about blade mishits that don't lose anymore yards that SGI irons?'

> Here?

>

> Don't make me laugh bud. I've played 588 Altitudes and G30's and MY experience mirrors all that can be 'shown' and does not even remotely mirror the **** spouted by the few here on WRX. The few that simply don't trust that a blade or a players CB will do everything a GI and SGI will do AND BETTER!!

>

> Too much BS talk about forgiveness and not enough talk about ball flight optimization and trust/comfort in your equipment when you're standing over the ball. Like I said, lack of trust causes anxiety and anxiety is a swing killer.

>

> Me I feel zero anxiety. I know my 6 iron which is 2 degrees weak will fly 185 as long as my move is good. And if I don't execute no GI or SGI club is going to be any better.

>

> Oh and just a side note, the word 'forgiveness' is a very common word when it comes to religion...not science ;-)

>

So you post a bunch of tests done by individual golfers (all of whom have publicly stated their preference and comfort with players irons and personal disdain for GI), completely anecdotal and the same as any other person can do, and then use that as scientific proof? Because if it's on YouTube it must be true? When the YouTubers you posted themselves acknowledge that what they did wasn't anything more than a single test and not something to draw an overarching principle on?

Again, YOUR experience is unimportant. As stated in the earlier posts, that's anecdotal and all yours. But if you say that blades are better than GI or SGI on all counts including forgiveness, that's not anecdotal. You gotta back that up with more than, "That's how it works for me." because not even the YouTubers you posted would

You might have gotten other people to cede the default position to you, to do your research for you or to accept anecdotal data as scientific because it was filmed but none of it flies.

bladehunter · May 12, 2019

Al anyone is saying is that anecdotal evidence is wrong both ways. Yours and mine. For some reason that is agreeable until it’s cited as a 2 way street. Why ?

IamMarkMac · May 12, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > > > > >

> > > > > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > > > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> > > > >

> > > > > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

> > > >

> > > > Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> > > > Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

> > >

> > > Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

> >

> > Yes, to say that someone will score better with a more forgiving club is a generalization. Even if the generalization is true, it can't possibly apply universally as a single exception will scuttle that.

> > That you'll score better with X clubs is marketing (and all clubs market that you'll score better with them, GI or blade). What is not marketing is the measure of how far off target a ball will be on mishits as that is scientific and repeatable of which GI clubs are demonstrably better at. But yes, I have seen the arguments that it is better to miss by 15 yards rather than 5 yards or it doesn't matter if you miss by 15 or 5 as the 15 yard miss might have avoided a bunker or something and I can't argue that. So if you're in the market for clubs that will miss by 15 yards instead of 5, people know what to buy.

>

> That’s my point though. It’s not a proven thing. It’s not a zero sum Deal. If it were no pro playing for a living would ever play anything except the most “ forgiving “ thing available. And why ? They’d just make an easy 2 putt par for any approach “ miss “ and go on. But. It doesn’t work that way. What forgives the 18 handicaps constant fat , toe strike also impedes the pure strike of a pro or elite am. Two extreme examples. Sure. But it’s the double standard that says those two extreme can’t be true. But the issue is. They are both true.

It's not. It is indeed horses for courses and when you're a pro that literally has a dime-sized indentation on your club because you always hit the sweetspot, you clearly don't need the forgiveness. You would prefer the tight distance control, the workability of flight and the "hotspots" and larger gaps in GI irons are a far greater problem.

But even pros will not contest that GI clubs give you straighter shots and more forgiveness (quantified as distance retention, I suppose) on off-center strikes in exchange for wider distance gaps and distance control issues. That being the case, one can never say that a particular type of club is for everyone but there's a general acceptance that a mid to high handicapper needs to prioritize straight flight and low distance loss versus demanding a fairly pure strike each time. However, if for some reason a golfer doesn't get that sort of performance from a GI club, who cares? It doesn't alter the general principle.

bladehunter · May 12, 2019

> @IamMarkMac said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > > > > @IamMarkMac said:

> > > > > > > > @Pepperturbo said:

> > > > > > > > In the same index range as the OP except probably much older. My Titleist 716CB's are similar in design purpose to the OP's Apex irons. Mine have a skosh of forgiveness with muscle in cavity, MB specs and shot working benefits.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > (Unrelated rant) I am tired of seeing the word "Anecdotal" on discussion boards. For the life of me don't know why certain people emphasize its use when it's not really fitting for a discussion board. One man's thoughts might not be accurate or credible while another man's contribution is based on extensive subject-matter experience and understanding. In other words, reader judgment is crucial, and this is a discussion board where people offer opinions not a scientific research journal

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > "Anecdotal" needs to be specified because there's no shortage of people here (or other places for that matter) who will use something that is purely their own experience as rebuttal evidence to a general norm. It needs to be specified because if you don't and people actually think you're saying that GI clubs aren't more forgiving or something like that, you're going to trigger a lot of people.

> > > > > > > FWIW though, I don't mind flame wars at all.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Yes. For sure. But. To be fair ... 99.9 % of the time it’s used to rebut someone else’s anecdotal information. Especially as forgiveness and strokes lost or gained form it , or the lack thereof , has never been proven or accurately quantified.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > As in a player chooses a club based on best outcomes vs choosing one based on mitigating a miss. I’ve never seen it studied , talked about nor proven that the better outcomes do not out weigh the mitigated misses ( when they are indeed helped ) On other words. My anecdote carries as much water as yours. And both leak.

> > > > >

> > > > > Exactly. "A player chooses..." is, by definition, anecdotal and, as there is no rule governing it, no one can gainsay it. A player may choose to play a set of hickory sticks for example and say it gives him the best outcome. Purely anecdotal and, regardless of whether or not a modern set will outperform the hickory, it is moot because the instance is limited to the anecdote.

> > > > > Should the hickory player though, for example, insist that everyone will score better with hickory because the smaller sweetspot and shorter distance will both improve your striking and course management, that's not an anecdotal assertion anymore.

> > > >

> > > > Agree. I’ll also add that if a player suggests the opposite it is also invalid. You can’t say that everyone will score better with a theoretically more forgiving club. Just nothing except marketing speak to back it up.

> > >

> > > Yes, to say that someone will score better with a more forgiving club is a generalization. Even if the generalization is true, it can't possibly apply universally as a single exception will scuttle that.

> > > That you'll score better with X clubs is marketing (and all clubs market that you'll score better with them, GI or blade). What is not marketing is the measure of how far off target a ball will be on mishits as that is scientific and repeatable of which GI clubs are demonstrably better at. But yes, I have seen the arguments that it is better to miss by 15 yards rather than 5 yards or it doesn't matter if you miss by 15 or 5 as the 15 yard miss might have avoided a bunker or something and I can't argue that. So if you're in the market for clubs that will miss by 15 yards instead of 5, people know what to buy.

> >

> > That’s my point though. It’s not a proven thing. It’s not a zero sum Deal. If it were no pro playing for a living would ever play anything except the most “ forgiving “ thing available. And why ? They’d just make an easy 2 putt par for any approach “ miss “ and go on. But. It doesn’t work that way. What forgives the 18 handicaps constant fat , toe strike also impedes the pure strike of a pro or elite am. Two extreme examples. Sure. But it’s the double standard that says those two extreme can’t be true. But the issue is. They are both true.

>

> It's not. It is indeed horses for courses and when you're a pro that literally has a dime-sized indentation on your club because you always hit the sweetspot, you clearly don't need the forgiveness. You would prefer the tight distance control, the workability of flight and the "hotspots" and larger gaps in GI irons are a far greater problem.

> But even pros will not contest that GI clubs give you straighter shots and more forgiveness (quantified as distance retention, I suppose) on off-center strikes in exchange for wider distance gaps and distance control issues. That being the case, one can never say that a particular type of club is for everyone but there's a general acceptance that a mid to high handicapper needs to prioritize straight flight and low distance loss versus demanding a fairly pure strike each time. However, if for some reason a golfer doesn't get that sort of performance from a GI club, who cares? It doesn't alter the general principle.

>

I could agree with you there for the most part. But. Most in this thread will not agree with what youre conceding. Which is why it’s gone eerily silent.

Exactice808 · May 12, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> Al anyone is saying is that anecdotal evidence is wrong both ways. Yours and mine. For some reason that is agreeable until it’s cited as a 2 way street. Why ?

I think it goes just a touch more beyond this, Everyone has their own Experiences & Opinions

Now then comes the way we post and deliver ourselves, We can share our experiences & Opinions to the masses

Both the way we share is dependent on our intent.

1) Are we sharing our experience & opinions with others so others can **make their own judgement**

2) Are we sharing our experience & opinions with others to **convince them to take our** experience and opinions

What I have found in a couple of forums not just GolfWRX is people have their own bias. There are people that want to learn and expand there knowledge and there are those that are set in their ways and if you disagree you are wrong to them no matter what.

Golf unfortunately has, 2 ego facets,

1) Handicap

2) Blades

If you have a low handicap, you are treated with a little more respect of opinion over the high handicap that may have a difference of opinion, Why just because you are a High Handicapper can you not be respected of opinion?

Blades have its "persona" that you must be an excellent over all player to be able to play it.

Fact remains while a minority group there are some honest people that honestly are out to help and want to share their opinions and experiences so others can make the most educated decision .

the other minority group is those that have a bias opinion and no matter what "scientific" facts, no matter what experiences an individual has if it does not align with their bias. you are wrong..... at that is when the egos go off the rails.......

bladehunter · May 12, 2019

The part above id still take exception to is it having anything to do with handicap. Some 12s strike the ball quite well. And some 15s barely get it airborne , even off a tee. I do buy that some irons weighting and some sole designs will help the severely flawed swing. But I don’t buy that it’s nearly enough to call a gospel truth accepted principle. Even though it is a widely accepted marketing strategy. Anecdotal evidence-

My 10 year old. Stated him several years ago on ping moxie clubs. Wide everything. Hit them ok as a beginner. Grew. So we built him a set of TM GI irons with L flex graphite. Hit those terrible.

(For reference. This kid shoots in the 40s from junior tees since he turned 9. He can drive it and score. )

So I started noticing he hit his 2 wedges just ridiculously good compared to his set pw. They are both vokey with a bit of a heel grind to take off a spot of extra material. So as a experiment I built him a pw and 7 iron titleist 962b with L flex graphite. And boom. He smokes them just like the 2 wedges. Why ? I think it’s the thin sole and low vertical cog. He can get a better strike on the ball and hit it higher. The irons that are supposed to help. Don’t. They bounce into the ball and glide. Instead of cutting a divot. Again. Anecdotal. But true 1 time.

Exactice808 · May 12, 2019

> @bladehunter said:

> The part above id still take exception to is it having anything to do with handicap. Some 12s strike the ball quite well. And some 15s barely get it airborne , even off a tee. I do buy that some irons weighting and some sole designs will help the severely flawed swing. But I don’t buy that it’s nearly enough to call a gospel truth accepted principle. Even though it is a widely accepted marketing strategy. Anecdotal evidence-

>

> My 10 year old. Stated him several years ago on ping moxie clubs. Wide everything. Hit them ok as a beginner. Grew. So we built him a set of TM GI irons with L flex graphite. Hit those terrible.

>

> (For reference. This kid shoots in the 40s from junior tees since he turned 9. He can drive it and score. )

>

> So I started noticing he hit his 2 wedges just ridiculously good compared to his set pw. They are both vokey with a bit of a heel grind to take off a spot of extra material. So as a experiment I built him a pw and 7 iron titleist 962b with L flex graphite. And boom. He smokes them just like the 2 wedges. Why ? I think it’s the thin sole and low vertical cog. He can get a better strike on the ball and hit it higher. The irons that are supposed to help. Don’t. They bounce into the ball and glide. Instead of cutting a divot. Again. Anecdotal. But true 1 time.

>

You edify my point.... You experimented and found what works right. You did NOT follow the basic rules or marketing hype? Here is the thing, some scream that because you are a high handicap you need to play the most forgiving clubs by ** default**.

You can try by default but if you DO Not experiment you will NEVER know your abilities or potential right? So anecdotal evidence as you stated is weak. Heck now even more so I feel the need to agree that people SHOULD experiment as much as possible and try hitting blades just for the heck of it to confirm they suck enough not to play them.... How can I say something that? Because of MY experiences. I sucked lied and tried... after the "experiment" I finally realized I was lying to myself and actually sucked. Moved to a forgiving club, learned how to play a complete game... got better and then tried again... Only to find out that the quality of my game now is not a major deficiency in the swing, but just being able to put the whole game together. (which unfortunately for me) Is not possible without a lot of practice. I have Zero natural talent and only practice will help put all facets of the golf game together.

b.helts · May 12, 2019

Wow dude. This is a dumpster fire.

Entertaining though. Carry on.

Exactice808 · May 12, 2019

> @"b.helts" said:

> Wow dude. This is a dumpster fire.

> Entertaining though. Carry on.

Nah this one is ok...... people in their handicap range are playing whats marketed for their handicaps....

Go to the other thread if you think this is a dumpster fire, the other one must be a landfill fire then........

b.helts · May 12, 2019

> @Exactice808 said:

> > @"b.helts" said:

> > Wow dude. This is a dumpster fire.

> > Entertaining though. Carry on.

>

> Nah this one is ok...... people in their handicap range are playing whats marketed for their handicaps....

>

> Go to the other thread if you think this is a dumpster fire, the other one must be a landfill fire then........

lol bud! I won’t even go in the other one.

I loved reading through this one though. While passion and conviction are be important in life, I have a hard time taking it seriously here.

b.helts · May 12, 2019

And the words per post count in this thread I through the roof!

Edited for clarity

Sign In

My experience gaming clubs that were designed for my handicap range

Recommended Posts

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Popular Posts

dpb5031

dciccoritti

MelloYello

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Link to comment