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Can't "Work" Ball with Game Improvement Irons


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I am experimenting with Wishon Sterling Single Length irons. My previous irons were Wishon forged cavity backs. Nice clubs, and I am holding on to them in case the SL experiment doesn't work out.

Is there any science behind the oft-stated assertion that you can't "work" GI irons as well as smaller forged clubs? I don't seem to be able to curve these SLs like the forged cavity backs, but I'm wondering if I'm just not used to them yet.

What about the GI club negates the ball flight rules?

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Pretty much impossible according to the GolfWRX GI truthers. That's why all the 15 handicap "great ballstrikers" here gots to play the blades.

> @MtlJeff said: > If you can hit a slice or hook with them , you can hit a draw or fade. It may be a bit harder since they are designed to launch high and straight, but you can definitely do i

I can work my r9 irons left and right and they are f**king massive. So I guess what I'm saying is I dunno lol.

> @lenman73 said:

> For myself, for whatever reason, I find the more gi an iron is, the more I cannot flight it down much nor can I hit an intentional fade. Conversely, I can hit hooks and draws all day long. But it could just be me, and others can bend them like Beckham.

 

I can hit a draw or fade with gi irons... I can’t control height... the again I’ve never played blades, so maybe I can’t control their height either.

 

 

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I like crossfields take on it, I think if you deliver the club path and face to path angle you will shape a shot regardless of the clubs design. Flight and total height I'd agree are the much harder aspects of the shot to control with a club designed to have a higher flight. I play GI irons and I can shape them either way (sometimes even on purpose lol)

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Pretty much impossible according to the GolfWRX GI truthers. That's why all the 15 handicap "great ballstrikers" here gots to play the blades.

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Sure. I can work them either high and straight or high and 40 yards left ;)

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If you can hit a slice or hook with them , you can hit a draw or fade. It may be a bit harder since they are designed to launch high and straight, but you can definitely do it, because I've seen it done many times and have done it myself many times

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> @MtlJeff said:

> If you can hit a slice or hook with them , you can hit a draw or fade. It may be a bit harder since they are designed to launch high and straight, but you can definitely do it, because I've seen it done many times and have done it myself many times

 

Pretty much this. Game improvement irons will make it "harder" to work the ball consistently, they are designed to be more forgiving & less reduction of distance on off-center hits. The MOI is increased which is what stabilizes the head, but will also reduce the side spin which is why you will have a harder time hitting curvier shots. There is also a lot more offset which will cause a draw bias, that doesn't mean you can't delay and hit fades, it just means you have to work harder to do so.

Controlling height consistently is probably the biggest issue, the sole width, leading edge height and sole chamber angle are generally high which leads to difficulty shallowing your swing to keep the ball down. If you hit a punch shot the sole on a GI is design to bounce it up, which will add spin and height. If you hit a sweeping knockdown tendency is to hit a low knuckler or thin it because of the aforementioned leading edge height and sole chamber angle.

 

Summary, they aren't designed for you to maximize your ability to work the ball, doesn't mean you can't, it just means there are better clubs at working the ball. People switch to GI because they are more forgiving, you give up less control for that.

 

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I personally can work them. So I’m NOT saying you can’t. But.

 

That’s when they are setup exactly like my favortite sets. As in loads of lead tape ( most gi heads are very light ) and same shaft etc. essentially a very heavy club with a big head. If it’s one that is fit to me per the oems recommendation then no. I’ll block most shots that I’m trying to draw and I’ll double cross some fades. And I’ll ask hit some of what I call knuckleballs. Where usually I hit a fade. That starts to fade and then loops over and draws back. A net straight ball. But left of target. These seen in trackman are always low spin towering shots with Short irons. Synopsis. I don’t get along with light weight irons. I can’t feel where the club head is I guess. But lead tape and a heavy shaft can fix it. But here’s the new kicker. Those two negate most of the “GI” salespitch of lighter and faster.

 

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> @Pittknife said:

> > @MtlJeff said:

> > If you can hit a slice or hook with them , you can hit a draw or fade. It may be a bit harder since they are designed to launch high and straight, but you can definitely do it, because I've seen it done many times and have done it myself many times

>

> Pretty much this. Game improvement irons will make it "harder" to work the ball consistently, they are designed to be more forgiving & less reduction of distance on off-center hits. The MOI is increased which is what stabilizes the head, but will also reduce the side spin which is why you will have a harder time hitting curvier shots. There is also a lot more offset which will cause a draw bias, that doesn't mean you can't delay and hit fades, it just means you have to work harder to do so.

> Controlling height consistently is probably the biggest issue, the sole width, leading edge height and sole chamber angle are generally high which leads to difficulty shallowing your swing to keep the ball down. If you hit a punch shot the sole on a GI is design to bounce it up, which will add spin and height. If you hit a sweeping knockdown tendency is to hit a low knuckler or thin it because of the aforementioned leading edge height and sole chamber angle.

>

> Summary, they aren't designed for you to maximize your ability to work the ball, doesn't mean you can't, it just means there are better clubs at working the ball. People switch to GI because they are more forgiving, you give up less control for that.

>

 

The clinical explanation of what I’ve experienced. ^. Well said.

 

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I can draw or overdraw any iron

Now making a modern iron fade a lot .... is WAAAY harder. iteach answered my post on why this is so


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GI irons have a reputation for being "hard to work" among higher-skilled players due to some of their attributes which have been designed to help lower skilled players.

 

Firstly, they have larger amounts of offset compared to less GI focused clubs. The larger amounts of offset in GI irons promotes the club face shutting quicker (with all other things being equal) compared to player's irons due to how the clubhead works in the downswing. As the face shuts quicker it can lead to the face being closed to path for someone who is typically square or open to path. Since better players tend not to have an issue with the squaring the face as much, the same swing feel that would produce a square face with their normal irons can now produce a face that is closed to path which can lead to massive draws and hooks when playing GI irons. This is why you will hear skilled players stating that GI irons cause them to hook the ball. Once you get to low single digits or have very good clubhead control, this issue can be quickly remedied but quick adjustments and you will be able to work the ball in terms of direction.

 

Second, GI irons have lots of weight down low to help launch the ball very high. This leads to the second complaint from highly skilled players about GI irons not being able to be worked for height. This one is a little harder to deal with because weight distribution is not something that can be easily manipulated by the swing. I definitely have issues trying to flight down GI irons but that can be remedied by taking a longer club and swinging softer...that opens a whole can of worms for spin and whatnot but that is a different story.

 

Overall, TL:DR, GI irons can be worked for direction but tend to be very difficult to control height of the flight.

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> @cardoustie said:

> I can draw or overdraw any iron

> Now making a modern iron fade a lot .... is WAAAY harder. iteach answered my post on why this is so

 

See. This game is so weird. I’m opposite. I can fade anything. I mean anything. But struggle to turn some modern designs over. And yet with a small iron my stock shot is a draw. I had to learn how to fade it.

 

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> @gbartko said:

> Pretty much impossible according to the GolfWRX GI truthers. That's why all the 15 handicap "great ballstrikers" here gots to play the blades.

 

Its funny all the '90+ shootin wrx ball-striking pros' on here with priority to shape a shot once every 4 months with pure blades rather than actually hit greens with GI clubs designed to hit high and straight.

Someone should write the USGA. We now know how to speed up play across the country. No more 5 hour rounds. Force the 'vanity chops' to play the GIs.

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I have the chunkiest of shovels in my basement yet I have the thinnest of butter knives of clubs as well and I can tell you from my experience you can work the ball with both clubs, but it is a lot easier the smaller and thinner the clubhead.

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> @MtlJeff said:

> If you can hit a slice or hook with them , you can hit a draw or fade. It may be a bit harder since they are designed to launch high and straight, but you can definitely do it, because I've seen it done many times and have done it myself many times

 

A golfer can hit a basic draw or fade with almost any category of club (Players, GI, SGI), as long as he understands the basic rules of ball flight.

If you are talking about flighting the ball down, it can be more challenging with GI and SGI clubheads because they are designed to get the ball up more. Also, the average shaft tends to get the ball up more than say 25 years ago.

 

One thing - probably the only thing - I miss about older blades/harsher shafts era is the ability to hit a low, hot punch shot with a 3i to get ball under trees and bounce it onto the green.

 

I wish I had bookmarked a _Golf Digest_ interview of club design engineers from a few years back. These techs said that fade and draw is do-able, but flighting balls up and down takes too much practice for most golfers. The solution: take an extra club or two into the wind, and swing smoothly so you don't balloon the ball - swinging extra hard creates more backspin, which catches the wind wall and robs you of distance.

 

Personally I would suggest that working the ball has two forms:

* _aggressive,_ as hitting a high draw over the corner of a dogleg to have a short wedge to the green; and...

* _defensive,_ as fading a 7i into a green to avoid the sucker pin on the left, which is setting four paces from a deep creek.

 

I would suggest that the average golfer benefits more from defensive than aggressive **work shots.**

 

My stock shot is a slight draw. That said, on tee shots I can usually pull off a fade if need be. I mean the ball is setting there on smooth turf, tee height like I want it, what more can I ask for. Off the fairway? A lot more iffy.

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I play with plenty of guys who have GI or SGI irons. Ping G700 big. They can still slice them off the planet.

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Isn't "working the ball" reliably dependent upon solid, center faced contact with face angle determining ball curvature? If so then there is no reason GI or even SGI can't be worked reliably. Their design is intended to minimize the bad effects of non center faced contact. So like all 10-20hc golfers on Wrx I can work the ball both ways. precisely. On command. Using either GI I200's or SGI G irons. Short game holds me back though but I am trying some blade style wedges this year for greater precision. And a new limited edition, high dollar putter to make more putts.

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IMO workability is greatly tied to the size of the sweet spot and how large the circumference is surrounding the sweet spot. I find the more offset and larger sweet spots and forgiveness circumference make it harder to move the ball "fractionally" right or left. My 716CB's have a somewhat small sweet spot and a small shallow area of peripheral forgiveness, with tungsten toe weighting, and sizeable muscle weight right behind the sweet spot that tapers off to right and left and top. It's that design that allows me to move the ball left and right.

 

So, as far as I am concerned, in the hands of the average amateur, GI irons are less capable of subtle left and right action, mostly because they are designed to use peripheral forgiveness to keep the ball going straight on off-center strikes; which is exactly what happens when moving the ball left and right.

 

I used to have a set of Titleist 735cm irons that were sold for that very reason. There was no problem with the blade short irons or even the moderate CB mid irons but 5-2i were full on CB which made moving the ball around difficult, so we parted ways.

 

One last thought that is often overlooked when talking about working the ball left or right. Sure the ball can be moved in both directions but that doesn't mean the user has ball control, especially if the user has an ingrained swing style that produces a certain trajectory like a draw. Over a few years, Tom Lehman attempted to switch to a fade but had all kinds of trouble with that due to his mechanics, so he gave up and went back to his draw, that which he could control.

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> @Bad9 said:

> Isn't "working the ball" reliably dependent upon solid, center faced contact with face angle determining ball curvature? If so then there is no reason GI or even SGI can't be worked reliably. Their design is intended to minimize the bad effects of non center faced contact. So like all 10-20hc golfers on Wrx I can work the ball both ways. precisely. On command. Using either GI I200's or SGI G irons. Short game holds me back though but I am trying some blade style wedges this year for greater precision. And a new limited edition, high dollar putter to make more putts.

 

In irons MOI is not as important as sole design. If the sole is preventing you from hitting a shot type doesn’t matter what the MOI.

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> @cardoustie said:

> I can draw or overdraw any iron

> Now making a modern iron fade a lot .... is WAAAY harder. iteach answered my post on why this is so

I'm curious as to the reason why. I have been driving myself half mad in an effort to develop a stock fade (to get away from my bad shot which is a hook) and I'm looking for an excuse to abandon the exercise.

 

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> @GolfTurkey said:

> > @cardoustie said:

> > I can draw or overdraw any iron

> > Now making a modern iron fade a lot .... is WAAAY harder. iteach answered my post on why this is so

> I'm curious as to the reason why. I have been driving myself half mad in an effort to develop a stock fade (to get away from my bad shot which is a hook) and I'm looking for an excuse to abandon the exercise.

>

Since I've been playing these Single Lengths, which have a GI head on them, I'm seeing a lot more fades than draws with my regular swing, compared to my forged CBs...and they have an offset, which I thought would encourage a draw...

gotta love this game, eh?

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> @Markrip said:

> I can hit a draw pretty much whenever I need to. I only fade it about half the time I try. I have blade wedges and it’s the same story

 

You shouldn’t see much movement with any wedges.

 

I’m not a big fan of fighting my natural swing, I can draw anything. Spends years trying to hit a fade which became a pull hook. Now if I need to absolutely go right I hit a push or mini high block.

 

Before trying to fade +1, during fade grail chase -5, back to accepting my draw and baby blocking it when needed +2 lol.

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