Can't "Work" Ball with Game Improvement Irons

[bladehunter]

Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

 

I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

[Nard_S]

Pittknife pretty much nailed it. The only add I have not read here is shaft relationship to player matter a great deal too. Wrong fit will veer things out of neutrality to screw ability to go both ways in reliable fashion.

 

The "stay in your lane and don't try this, leave it for the big boys" is silly and short sighted. You want to learn more about your swing? Practice working the ball, it has a lot to teach and in the long run can save you strokes and money on the course.

[gbartko]

> @bladehunter said:

> Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

>

> I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

 

i dont think anyone is saying try to hit it straight in spite of your *natural* shot shape. i think the point is "working the ball" is probably pretty low on the list of what mid caps should be doing when attacking pins. imo, a 12 handicap should be more worried about hitting the green than drawing it into a left flag or fading it into a right flag. at a certain level you need to do those things to shoot lower. again, this is just the way i look at it from trying to post the lowest score i can.

[lenman73]

> @gbartko said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

> >

> > I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

>

> i dont think anyone is saying try to hit it straight in spite of your *natural* shot shape. i think the point is "working the ball" is probably pretty low on the list of what mid caps should be doing when attacking pins. imo, a 12 handicap should be more worried about hitting the green than drawing it into a left flag or fading it into a right flag. at a certain level you need to do those things to shoot lower. again, this is just the way i look at it from trying to post the lowest score i can.

 

As a mid, I will still only speak for myself. Buy my natural shape is a draw. I can have a hook or a block show up out of nowhere sure. But knowing my normal shape, I dont necessarily attack pins. It doesn't matter where on the green it is. I go for the correct yardage and play my shape towards the middle. The problem is when I need to purposefully produce a fade. Say a dogleg or going around a tree, that is where the trouble begins. Again this is just my experience with gi or sgi irons. With work, I'm sure it could become easier, but as of the moment not so much. Drivers and fairways are much easier for me to curve to the right on demand.

[Nard_S]

> @gbartko said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

> >

> > I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

>

> i dont think anyone is saying try to hit it straight in spite of your *natural* shot shape. i think the point is "working the ball" is probably pretty low on the list of what mid caps should be doing when attacking pins. imo, a 12 handicap should be more worried about hitting the green than drawing it into a left flag or fading it into a right flag. at a certain level you need to do those things to shoot lower. again, this is just the way i look at it from trying to post the lowest score i can.

 

100% agree, bending ball to flag especially with short iron is highly dubious and low percentage. But where "working" is quite effective is off the tee and placing ball in proper angle to green or steering around or away from trouble. Done right you knock 20 yards off approach shot, then you take natural shape and knock it on.

[tobiasjd]

For me pretty much anything is easy to hook. so I need something that won't make it so easy to draw the ball. Less offset with irons seems to help, but can also lower trajectory, so I like a shaft that launches higher. Driver is different. I use a stiffer shaft and will hit the ball pretty straight or it will bleed out to the right a little. Rarely will I start to draw the driver, in which case I just go with it.

[bladehunter]

> @gbartko said:

> > @bladehunter said:

> > Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

> >

> > I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

>

> i dont think anyone is saying try to hit it straight in spite of your *natural* shot shape. i think the point is "working the ball" is probably pretty low on the list of what mid caps should be doing when attacking pins. imo, a 12 handicap should be more worried about hitting the green than drawing it into a left flag or fading it into a right flag. at a certain level you need to do those things to shoot lower. again, this is just the way i look at it from trying to post the lowest score i can.

 

But that’s the flaw in the thinking. Straight is really rare for all but the most . So you have to have some level of control with a shot shape. Even to hit the middle of the green. So you are in fact working it into a target. Middle of the green or not.

 

The ones who argue against mentioning the word “ workable” are the guys rolling balls up I’d wager.

 

Otherwise im to either assume they hit it dead straight or they play a controlled shape into greens.

[gbartko]

> @bladehunter said:

> > @gbartko said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

> > >

> > > I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

> >

> > i dont think anyone is saying try to hit it straight in spite of your *natural* shot shape. i think the point is "working the ball" is probably pretty low on the list of what mid caps should be doing when attacking pins. imo, a 12 handicap should be more worried about hitting the green than drawing it into a left flag or fading it into a right flag. at a certain level you need to do those things to shoot lower. again, this is just the way i look at it from trying to post the lowest score i can.

>

> But that’s the flaw in the thinking. Straight is really rare for all but the most . So you have to have some level of control with a shot shape. Even to hit the middle of the green. So you are in fact working it into a target. Middle of the green or not.

>

> The ones who argue against mentioning the word “ workable” are the guys rolling balls up I’d wager.

>

> Otherwise im to either assume they hit it dead straight or they play a controlled shape into greens.

 

i agree that straight is rare for most, but just because it moves right to left or left to right on its own doesn't mean that you are "working" it. that's just the way it goes by default. i see "working" it more as something that you want the shot to take a trajectory/direction that is not your normal, do nothing special ball flight/swing.

[ALIF]

The problem with mid handicappers not being able to work the ball with game improvement irons is simply that mid handicappers generally speaking are not "good" golfers. It's no surprise that they are not able to work the ball. Their skill level is significantly lacking. Is this a surprise? The thing that would benefit the mid handicapper the most is just to try to hit the green period.

[gbartko]

> @chiva said:

> The problem with mid handicappers not being able to work the ball with game improvement irons is simply that mid handicappers generally speaking are not "good" golfers. It's no surprise that they are not able to work the ball. Their skill level is significantly lacking. Is this a surprise? The thing that would benefit the mid handicapper the most is just to try to hit the green period.

if they could "work" the ball on demand, they wouldn't be mid cappers, am i right?

[gbartko]

> @Nard_S said:

> > @gbartko said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

> > >

> > > I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

> >

> > i dont think anyone is saying try to hit it straight in spite of your *natural* shot shape. i think the point is "working the ball" is probably pretty low on the list of what mid caps should be doing when attacking pins. imo, a 12 handicap should be more worried about hitting the green than drawing it into a left flag or fading it into a right flag. at a certain level you need to do those things to shoot lower. again, this is just the way i look at it from trying to post the lowest score i can.

>

> 100% agree, bending ball to flag especially with short iron is highly dubious and low percentage. But where "working" is quite effective is off the tee and placing ball in proper angle to green or steering around or away from trouble. Done right you knock 20 yards off approach shot, then you take natural shape and knock it on.

 

excellent point on the long game aspect of working the ball - i totally missed that and you are dead right.

[rkelso184]

Gosh I have at least 5 shots I can hit with my GI irons

Top, thin, slice, hook and air swing!

[ALIF]

> @gbartko said:

> > @chiva said:

> > The problem with mid handicappers not being able to work the ball with game improvement irons is simply that mid handicappers generally speaking are not "good" golfers. It's no surprise that they are not able to work the ball. Their skill level is significantly lacking. Is this a surprise? The thing that would benefit the mid handicapper the most is just to try to hit the green period.

> if they could "work" the ball on demand, they wouldn't be mid cappers, am i right?

 

Can I get an Amen!!!!!!

 

 

[Lodestone]

Here's how it went for me today...playing alone on a 165 yd par 3...pin front left, on a green you really don't want to be right of the pin. Playing 2 balls...Ball 1, wanted to draw one into the front left, OK if short left. Hit a push fade. Perfect.

Ball 2, decided to aim left and try to fade it in. Hit a pull hook...double perfect. Good news: I made two SPECTACULAR up and downs for two pars.

Really, I should just aim a tad right of that pin, try to hit it straight, and live with whatever happens. My index BTW is 10.2.

[ALIF]

> @Lodestone said:

> Here's how it went for me today...playing alone on a 165 yd par 3...pin front left, on a green you really don't want to be right of the pin. Playing 2 balls...Ball 1, wanted to draw one into the front left, OK if short left. Hit a push fade. Perfect.

> Ball 2, decided to aim left and try to fade it in. Hit a pull hook...double perfect. Good news: I made two SPECTACULAR up and downs for two pars.

> Really, I should just aim a tad right of that pin, try to hit it straight, and live with whatever happens. My index BTW is 10.2.

 

Wisdom!!!!!

[tigerfan23]

I just finished playing the ocean club in bahamas (amazing course). They had callaway steel head for rental irons. They were good enough but honestly they went straight right off the face (i usually like to play a push draw with irons). But these went right and stayed there. I adjusted and aimed a bit left and they were fine but putting the same swing on ap2 produces a draw. Clubs were pretty decent though

 

[MtlJeff]

> @kgeorge78 said:

> I just finished playing the ocean club in bahamas (amazing course). They had callaway steel head for rental irons. They were good enough but honestly they went straight right off the face (i usually like to play a push draw with irons). But these went right and stayed there. I adjusted and aimed a bit left and they were fine but putting the same swing on ap2 produces a draw. Clubs were pretty decent though

>

 

That's not the Norman course at great exuma is it? I played that course and it was a beast

[Lodestone]

> @Nard_S said:

> Pittknife pretty much nailed it. The only add I have not read here is shaft relationship to player matter a great deal too. Wrong fit will veer things out of neutrality to **** ability to go both ways in reliable fashion.

>

> The "stay in your lane and don't try this, leave it for the big boys" is silly and short sighted. You want to learn more about your swing? Practice working the ball, it has a lot to teach and in the long run can save you strokes and money on the course.

and hell, it's fun.

 

 

[kiwihacker]

I can work a ball both ways regardless of the type of iron in my hands. I just don't which way! ? :blush:

[kiwihacker]

> @kgeorge78 said:

> I just finished playing the ocean club in bahamas (amazing course). They had callaway steel head for rental irons. They were good enough but honestly they went straight right off the face (i usually like to play a push draw with irons). But these went right and stayed there. I adjusted and aimed a bit left and they were fine but putting the same swing on ap2 produces a draw. Clubs were pretty decent though

>

 

I remember one of the young, talented juniors at my club demoing a Callaway iron probably not too dissimilar to the Steelheads a few years back. On a longish par 3 he hit his stock shot trying to fade it into the pin. "Cut, cut, where's the cut?" He exclaimed as his tee shot sailed straight to the left side of the green. He was coming from a players CB that he must have found more workable.

[gbartko]

Also, I don't need blades to work the ball. Why use blades and make it easy? I like to know when I don't put the intended swing on the ball by it going STRAIGHT! I gots to have that *feedback*? I have to concentrate *more * with GI clubs to hit my baby draw and butter cut! That way I know I'm getting sloppy if it goes straight!!!

 

Now, doesn't that sound f**king stupid?

[Titleist_PT23]

> @lenman73 said:

> > @gbartko said:

> > > @bladehunter said:

> > > Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

> > >

> > > I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

> >

> > i dont think anyone is saying try to hit it straight in spite of your *natural* shot shape. i think the point is "working the ball" is probably pretty low on the list of what mid caps should be doing when attacking pins. imo, a 12 handicap should be more worried about hitting the green than drawing it into a left flag or fading it into a right flag. at a certain level you need to do those things to shoot lower. again, this is just the way i look at it from trying to post the lowest score i can.

>

> As a mid, I will still only speak for myself. Buy my natural shape is a draw. I can have a hook or a block show up out of nowhere sure. But knowing my normal shape, I dont necessarily attack pins. It doesn't matter where on the green it is. I go for the correct yardage and play my shape towards the middle. The problem is when I need to purposefully produce a fade. Say a dogleg or going around a tree, that is where the trouble begins. Again this is just my experience with gi or sgi irons. With work, I'm sure it could become easier, but as of the moment not so much. Drivers and fairways are much easier for me to curve to the right on demand.

 

I'm a mid also, and would concur. My natural shot shape is a fade. I can make the ball curve to the left but I really don't have control over it. I.e. I can hit a hook recovery shot from behind a tree as long as it's fine if it curves 10 yards or 30 yards. I can't stand in the 18th fairway at Doral and aim at the bunker drawing one in to the back left pin.

 

I try to hit my shots straight, as hitting a fade tends to bring back some past swing faults. While it would be nice to be able to work the ball into pins (both ways) or with/against the wind, I've found that it is best to just play the shot that I have the best chance of hitting flush (i.e. clean contact, and some control over direction). This means that it is hard to get extremely close to some pins, but at my level I think that is just a natural consequence. I've also found that the GI irons and mid-range balls are very stable in crosswinds. If I catch if flush, these shots rarely curve more than 5 yards (even playing in 20 mph winds next to the ocean). Of course, playing this way (strategy and equipment) has other things you are giving up.

 

No doubt there are some mids that can truly work the ball on command both ways. From what I've seen on the course (not standing at the range making the same swing 10 times in a row), I think they are in the minority though.

 

[dciccoritti]

> @gbartko said:

> > @dciccoritti said:

> > > @gbartko said:

> > > > @bladehunter said:

> > > > Awesome thread guys. You’ve got guys in here telling you the truth who have designed some of the irons you’re playing and yet the obligatory “ you don’t need to hit anything but a straight shot” and “ only on Wrx do we have guys playing blades shooting 106 and holding up the course”. With a call to the USga with the “ real” slow play issue. GEt our of here with that noise. If you’re hitting 3 wood from 150 out. You aren’t the topic of this thread. You are looking for the “ so I need a 9 wood or 7 hybrid “ thread.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t know who you guys play with. But I’ve played with many 10-12 handicaps who play a shot shape. And play them well. I’ve yet to see this 15 handicap who has g700s and only hits straight laser beams.

> > >

> > > i dont think anyone is saying try to hit it straight in spite of your *natural* shot shape. i think the point is "working the ball" is probably pretty low on the list of what mid caps should be doing when attacking pins. imo, a 12 handicap should be more worried about hitting the green than drawing it into a left flag or fading it into a right flag. at a certain level you need to do those things to shoot lower. again, this is just the way i look at it from trying to post the lowest score i can.

> >

> > You're wrong. Regardless of handicap, working the ball is one of the best things any golfer could do to get better and to better understand. Bubba Watson starting working the ball from day one. He didn't wait until he became a scratch golfer and some might argue the reason he and many others got good was because they learned to shape and flight. Learning to shape and flight will undoubtably give anyone more understanding of the mechanics of the swing. Also saying that mid to high caps should stay away from a 60 wedge is also BS. You don't learn to play a 4 string bass before attempting to play a 6 string acoustic because the strings are bigger and have more space in-between them. You want to learn to play a 6 string you f**king pick up a 6 string and play the sh*t out of it. And if YOU can't play a 6 string doesn't mean others can't!!

> >

> > Guy wants to shape it, let him shape it. You stick to your panic game of centre greens with straight shots and let others do what they want. I baby fade and baby draw on command. Fade is great for reducing distance and increasing spin and traj. Baby draw is great when the distance to the pin is few yards longer than your club.

> >

>

> That's just, like, your opinion, man.

> Why do you think a draw and a fade go different distances? DeNinny physics?

> Does that mean bubba's fade goes further but his hook goes shorter cause he's left handed?

>

>

>

 

Not sure if serious...

 

 

[bladehunter]

> @gbartko said:

> Also, I don't need blades to work the ball. Why use blades and make it easy? I like to know when I don't put the intended swing on the ball by it going STRAIGHT! I gots to have that *feedback*? I have to concentrate *more * with GI clubs to hit my baby draw and butter cut! That way I know I'm getting sloppy if it goes straight!!!

>

> Now, doesn't that sound f**king stupid?

 

To be fair. Only when you say it. Lol ( barn door was wide open man. Had to )

[bladehunter]

> @kiwihacker said:

> > @kgeorge78 said:

> > I just finished playing the ocean club in bahamas (amazing course). They had callaway steel head for rental irons. They were good enough but honestly they went straight right off the face (i usually like to play a push draw with irons). But these went right and stayed there. I adjusted and aimed a bit left and they were fine but putting the same swing on ap2 produces a draw. Clubs were pretty decent though

> >

>

> I remember one of the young, talented juniors at my club demoing a Callaway iron probably not too dissimilar to the Steelheads a few years back. On a longish par 3 he hit his stock shot trying to fade it into the pin. "Cut, cut, where's the cut?" He exclaimed as his tee shot sailed straight to the left side of the green. He was coming from a players CB that he must have found more workable.

 

In all seriousness. This ^^^ is what someone means when they say the GI iron is harder to work. You can slice or hook anything. But Players are taking about hitting they 4-5 yard fade or draw on command. These irons do tend to just leave them out straight for a good player.

 

And If I may ask. Why do these conversations always devolve to “ what a mid cap should do “? Why does the mid caps opinion of a GI iron matter more than others ? You’d think the guy who hits it better could give a bettter review ? Just from a pragmatic point of thought. Couldn’t he/she actually tell you what the irons tendencies are ?

[Titleist_PT23]

> @bladehunter said:

> And If I may ask. Why do these conversations always devolve to “ what a mid cap should do “? Why does the mid caps opinion of a GI iron matter more than others ? You’d think the guy who hits it better could give a bettter review ? Just from a pragmatic point of thought. Couldn’t he/she actually tell you what the irons tendencies are ?

Probably

#1. Because there are more mid-caps playing these clubs so they chime in (like me) even if steering the convo in a different (unwanted) direction. Most better players are likely only looking at a GI 3-iron or 4-iron.

#2. I think everyone agrees with the right swing mechanics a good player can bend any shot with any club. As mentioned above, it will be harder with certain clubs than others.

#3. The largest point of contention is the guys like me vs the guys of similar playing range that say they need MBs or players CBs to do this, that, and whatever else that sounds great. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. But arguing over that is a lot more common than saying "You are right, I agree" to the point in #2.

Edit: whenever I start a line with a #, it comes out in huge font. Not sure why.

 

[Pittknife]

I’ve explained the club part earlier in the thread, I would like to address the swing side. Not all better players *can work the ball. What is your definition of working the ball, is it controlling it within 2-3 yards or just making things go left and right? Is it hitting it in a driving range or actually during a round?

 

I’m a +2 and have always seen the left side of everything, spent years working to hit a fade which I can easily do. I just can’t control it reliably in a round. If I have a right pin with water on the right why would I hit a shot that I can’t control going towards the hazard. I’ll aim middle and miss left. The only people I run into that think they should be able to shape every shot and pin seek are high handicappers. Playing high level golf is about playing within your comfort zone and minimizing your mistakes. It’s not about working the ball. To maintain my handicap I need 2-3 birdies, par the rest of the holes, not every hole is meant to be attacked.

 

I don’t care or suggest anyone do anything, if they want to work the ball that’s great, do it. But will it make you a better player? The effort to get a reliable swing to control left and right spin and distance is daunting. Spending 1/4 time in putting and chipping will get you a lot better. My goal is also not to go on tour with my ability to shape shots, my goal is to enjoy the game.

 

If I want to work the ball easily I use clubs designed to do that. Spending more effort trying to make a club design to resist what you are trying to do is a little pointless to me. I don’t set my M5 driver to draw and deep back for high launch and expect to easily hit low fade drives.... why would I want to hit irons with soles that are designed to hit high left shots?

[kiwihacker]

> @Pittknife said:

> I’ve explained the club part earlier in the thread, I would like to address the swing side. Not all better players *can work the ball. What is your definition of working the ball, is it controlling it within 2-3 yards or just making things go left and right? Is it hitting it in a driving range or actually during a round?

>

> I’m a +2 and have always seen the left side of everything, spent years working to hit a fade which I can easily do. I just can’t control it reliably in a round. If I have a right pin with water on the right why would I hit a shot that I can’t control going towards the hazard. I’ll aim middle and miss left. The only people I run into that think they should be able to shape every shot and pin seek are high handicappers. Playing high level golf is about playing within your comfort zone and minimizing your mistakes. It’s not about working the ball. To maintain my handicap I need 2-3 birdies, par the rest of the holes, not every hole is meant to be attacked.

>

> I don’t care or suggest anyone do anything, if they want to work the ball that’s great, do it. But will it make you a better player? The effort to get a reliable swing to control left and right spin and distance is daunting. Spending 1/4 time in putting and chipping will get you a lot better. My goal is also not to go on tour with my ability to shape shots, my goal is to enjoy the game.

>

> If I want to work the ball easily I use clubs designed to do that. Spending more effort trying to make a club design to resist what you are trying to do is a little pointless to me. I don’t set my M5 driver to draw and deep back for high launch and expect to easily hit low fade drives.... why would I want to hit irons with soles that are designed to hit high left shots?

 

Played with a visiting 1 handicap today. He said the straight shot is the best shot in golf and he proved it by hitting it straight down the middle all day. Pretty to watch. He was hitting a Taylormade Burner driver from about 2008 and some similar vintage GI irons. Guys like him just prove the old saying it is the Indian not the arrow.

[MountainGoat]

> @kiwihacker said:

> > @Pittknife said:

> > I’ve explained the club part earlier in the thread, I would like to address the swing side. Not all better players *can work the ball. What is your definition of working the ball, is it controlling it within 2-3 yards or just making things go left and right? Is it hitting it in a driving range or actually during a round?

> >

> > I’m a +2 and have always seen the left side of everything, spent years working to hit a fade which I can easily do. I just can’t control it reliably in a round. If I have a right pin with water on the right why would I hit a shot that I can’t control going towards the hazard. I’ll aim middle and miss left. The only people I run into that think they should be able to shape every shot and pin seek are high handicappers. Playing high level golf is about playing within your comfort zone and minimizing your mistakes. It’s not about working the ball. To maintain my handicap I need 2-3 birdies, par the rest of the holes, not every hole is meant to be attacked.

> >

> > I don’t care or suggest anyone do anything, if they want to work the ball that’s great, do it. But will it make you a better player? The effort to get a reliable swing to control left and right spin and distance is daunting. Spending 1/4 time in putting and chipping will get you a lot better. My goal is also not to go on tour with my ability to shape shots, my goal is to enjoy the game.

> >

> > If I want to work the ball easily I use clubs designed to do that. Spending more effort trying to make a club design to resist what you are trying to do is a little pointless to me. I don’t set my M5 driver to draw and deep back for high launch and expect to easily hit low fade drives.... why would I want to hit irons with soles that are designed to hit high left shots?

>

> Played with a visiting 1 handicap today. He said the straight shot is the best shot in golf and he proved it by hitting it straight down the middle all day. Pretty to watch. He was hitting a Taylormade Burner driver from about 2008 and some similar vintage GI irons. Guys like him just prove the old saying it is the Indian not the arrow.

 

Indians appreciate the difference in arrows. I played with my club pro yesterday, and he was testing shafts looking for something that reliably allowed him to move the ball left to right. He argued strongly seeking a straight shot only succeeded in giving you a two-way miss. He felt he needed to take the left side of the course out of play. The point is that you can find a good player who will advocate every possible playing style. Some guys want to hit straight; some guys want to work the ball both ways; some guys are trying to optimize one particular shape. As for whether GI irons are harder to work, Ralph Maltby's opinion was that there is nothing about a clubhead that affects your ability to work the ball. I'm not sure I agree with that, but he designs clubheads and I don't.

[Pittknife]

> @MountainGoat said:

> > @kiwihacker said:

> > > @Pittknife said:

> > > I’ve explained the club part earlier in the thread, I would like to address the swing side. Not all better players *can work the ball. What is your definition of working the ball, is it controlling it within 2-3 yards or just making things go left and right? Is it hitting it in a driving range or actually during a round?

> > >

> > > I’m a +2 and have always seen the left side of everything, spent years working to hit a fade which I can easily do. I just can’t control it reliably in a round. If I have a right pin with water on the right why would I hit a shot that I can’t control going towards the hazard. I’ll aim middle and miss left. The only people I run into that think they should be able to shape every shot and pin seek are high handicappers. Playing high level golf is about playing within your comfort zone and minimizing your mistakes. It’s not about working the ball. To maintain my handicap I need 2-3 birdies, par the rest of the holes, not every hole is meant to be attacked.

> > >

> > > I don’t care or suggest anyone do anything, if they want to work the ball that’s great, do it. But will it make you a better player? The effort to get a reliable swing to control left and right spin and distance is daunting. Spending 1/4 time in putting and chipping will get you a lot better. My goal is also not to go on tour with my ability to shape shots, my goal is to enjoy the game.

> > >

> > > If I want to work the ball easily I use clubs designed to do that. Spending more effort trying to make a club design to resist what you are trying to do is a little pointless to me. I don’t set my M5 driver to draw and deep back for high launch and expect to easily hit low fade drives.... why would I want to hit irons with soles that are designed to hit high left shots?

> >

> > Played with a visiting 1 handicap today. He said the straight shot is the best shot in golf and he proved it by hitting it straight down the middle all day. Pretty to watch. He was hitting a Taylormade Burner driver from about 2008 and some similar vintage GI irons. Guys like him just prove the old saying it is the Indian not the arrow.

>

> Indians appreciate the difference in arrows. I played with my club pro yesterday, and he was testing shafts looking for something that reliably allowed him to move the ball left to right. He argued strongly seeking a straight shot only succeeded in giving you a two-way miss. He felt he needed to take the left side of the course out of play. The point is that you can find a good player who will advocate every possible playing style. Some guys want to hit straight; some guys want to work the ball both ways; some guys are trying to optimize one particular shape. As for whether GI irons are harder to work, Ralph Maltby's opinion was that there is nothing about a clubhead that affects your ability to work the ball. I'm not sure I agree with that, but he designs clubheads and I don't.

 

I think that’s where this thread is a little derailed, the issue was do GI clubs make it more difficult to work the ball.

 

I designed golf clubs for 10 years for taylormade, Bridgestone, sonartec and nickent. There isn’t anyone that will argue clubs don’t affect a players ability to shape a shot.

 

If I hand a player an iron bent 6 degree flat with a 1” inch sole and raided the leading edge .25” including decreasing sole radius it will be next to impossible to strike the ball well and hit it consistently with a draw.

 

With a driver that doesn’t touch the ground, I could add all the weight to the back and toe, change bulge and roll which will make the best shots on the driver be heelside strikes with a high draw. They can hit toe shots but it will be very difficult to shut the face and being that off center to CG will lose distance. So club design absolutely can prevent a player from hitting shots.