Can't "Work" Ball with Game Improvement Irons

MountainGoat · May 4, 2019

> @Pittknife said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > > @kiwihacker said:

> > > > @Pittknife said:

> > > > I’ve explained the club part earlier in the thread, I would like to address the swing side. Not all better players *can work the ball. What is your definition of working the ball, is it controlling it within 2-3 yards or just making things go left and right? Is it hitting it in a driving range or actually during a round?

> > > >

> > > > I’m a +2 and have always seen the left side of everything, spent years working to hit a fade which I can easily do. I just can’t control it reliably in a round. If I have a right pin with water on the right why would I hit a shot that I can’t control going towards the hazard. I’ll aim middle and miss left. The only people I run into that think they should be able to shape every shot and pin seek are high handicappers. Playing high level golf is about playing within your comfort zone and minimizing your mistakes. It’s not about working the ball. To maintain my handicap I need 2-3 birdies, par the rest of the holes, not every hole is meant to be attacked.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t care or suggest anyone do anything, if they want to work the ball that’s great, do it. But will it make you a better player? The effort to get a reliable swing to control left and right spin and distance is daunting. Spending 1/4 time in putting and chipping will get you a lot better. My goal is also not to go on tour with my ability to shape shots, my goal is to enjoy the game.

> > > >

> > > > If I want to work the ball easily I use clubs designed to do that. Spending more effort trying to make a club design to resist what you are trying to do is a little pointless to me. I don’t set my M5 driver to draw and deep back for high launch and expect to easily hit low fade drives.... why would I want to hit irons with soles that are designed to hit high left shots?

> > >

> > > Played with a visiting 1 handicap today. He said the straight shot is the best shot in golf and he proved it by hitting it straight down the middle all day. Pretty to watch. He was hitting a Taylormade Burner driver from about 2008 and some similar vintage GI irons. Guys like him just prove the old saying it is the Indian not the arrow.

> >

> > Indians appreciate the difference in arrows. I played with my club pro yesterday, and he was testing shafts looking for something that reliably allowed him to move the ball left to right. He argued strongly seeking a straight shot only succeeded in giving you a two-way miss. He felt he needed to take the left side of the course out of play. The point is that you can find a good player who will advocate every possible playing style. Some guys want to hit straight; some guys want to work the ball both ways; some guys are trying to optimize one particular shape. As for whether GI irons are harder to work, Ralph Maltby's opinion was that there is nothing about a clubhead that affects your ability to work the ball. I'm not sure I agree with that, but he designs clubheads and I don't.

>

> I think that’s where this thread is a little derailed, the issue was do GI clubs make it more difficult to work the ball.

>

> I designed golf clubs for 10 years for taylormade, Bridgestone, sonartec and nickent. There isn’t anyone that will argue clubs don’t affect a players ability to shape a shot.

>

> If I hand a player an iron bent 6 degree flat with a 1” inch sole and raided the leading edge .25” including decreasing sole radius it will be next to impossible to strike the ball well and hit it consistently with a draw.

>

> With a driver that doesn’t touch the ground, I could add all the weight to the back and toe, change bulge and roll which will make the best shots on the driver be heelside strikes with a high draw. They can hit toe shots but it will be very difficult to shut the face and being that off center to CG will lose distance. So club design absolutely can prevent a player from hitting shots.

I guess this was in response to my comment about Maltby. Yes, everyone knows that the assembled club affects your ability to shape shots. Maltby's point was in response to a question about muscle back vs cavity back. He believed that both allow the golfer to work the ball equally. As I said, I don't know that I believe that; I'm just relaying his opinion.

br61 · May 4, 2019

I'm liking my clubs so far cause I know I can hit my stock shot more consistently, little draw with higher trajectory. Same shot pattern with my old J15CB's but higher now. I won't try to fade unless I need to bend it around a tree. I can fade it easily but cannot control the amount of bend easily. Current HC +1

Attempting to work your shot both ways, welcome to land of 2 way misses.

Lodestone · May 4, 2019

> @Pittknife said:

> I’ve explained the club part earlier in the thread, I would like to address the swing side. Not all better players *can work the ball. What is your definition of working the ball, is it controlling it within 2-3 yards or just making things go left and right? Is it hitting it in a driving range or actually during a round?

>

> I’m a +2 and have always seen the left side of everything, spent years working to hit a fade which I can easily do. I just can’t control it reliably in a round. If I have a right pin with water on the right why would I hit a shot that I can’t control going towards the hazard. I’ll aim middle and miss left. The only people I run into that think they should be able to shape every shot and pin seek are high handicappers. Playing high level golf is about playing within your comfort zone and minimizing your mistakes. It’s not about working the ball. To maintain my handicap I need 2-3 birdies, par the rest of the holes, not every hole is meant to be attacked.

>

> I don’t care or suggest anyone do anything, if they want to work the ball that’s great, do it. But will it make you a better player? The effort to get a reliable swing to control left and right spin and distance is daunting. Spending 1/4 time in putting and chipping will get you a lot better. My goal is also not to go on tour with my ability to shape shots, my goal is to enjoy the game.

>

> If I want to work the ball easily I use clubs designed to do that. Spending more effort trying to make a club design to resist what you are trying to do is a little pointless to me. I don’t set my M5 driver to draw and deep back for high launch and expect to easily hit low fade drives.... why would I want to hit irons with soles that are designed to hit high left shots?

Great post. As I recall Bruce Leitzke made a very nice living off of never ever trying to make his ball go right to left. But he could make it go left to right, just the right amount, all day long, day after day, year after year. If the hole set up for a right to left shape, he made that a hole he was going to par, with his L to R shot.

The difference between a great shotmaker, and me, a 10 index, is that I am always guessing what the ball will do in the air. A well hit shot might go a little left, or a little right, but it's not very often by intention. I can maybe make it go a certain way, but not subtly. My swing is just too inconsistent. My short game would probably support a + index, but my ball striking will not. A 15 or 20 index looks at my balls striking and thinks it's great, but I have been beaten by too many low single digit players to be fooled.

Anyway, great conversation.

tannyhoban · May 4, 2019

Pffft, working the ball is so overrated. PLAY the ball.

dciccoritti · May 4, 2019

> @Pittknife said:

> > @MountainGoat said:

> > > @kiwihacker said:

> > > > @Pittknife said:

> > > > I’ve explained the club part earlier in the thread, I would like to address the swing side. Not all better players *can work the ball. What is your definition of working the ball, is it controlling it within 2-3 yards or just making things go left and right? Is it hitting it in a driving range or actually during a round?

> > > >

> > > > I’m a +2 and have always seen the left side of everything, spent years working to hit a fade which I can easily do. I just can’t control it reliably in a round. If I have a right pin with water on the right why would I hit a shot that I can’t control going towards the hazard. I’ll aim middle and miss left. The only people I run into that think they should be able to shape every shot and pin seek are high handicappers. Playing high level golf is about playing within your comfort zone and minimizing your mistakes. It’s not about working the ball. To maintain my handicap I need 2-3 birdies, par the rest of the holes, not every hole is meant to be attacked.

> > > >

> > > > I don’t care or suggest anyone do anything, if they want to work the ball that’s great, do it. But will it make you a better player? The effort to get a reliable swing to control left and right spin and distance is daunting. Spending 1/4 time in putting and chipping will get you a lot better. My goal is also not to go on tour with my ability to shape shots, my goal is to enjoy the game.

> > > >

> > > > If I want to work the ball easily I use clubs designed to do that. Spending more effort trying to make a club design to resist what you are trying to do is a little pointless to me. I don’t set my M5 driver to draw and deep back for high launch and expect to easily hit low fade drives.... why would I want to hit irons with soles that are designed to hit high left shots?

> > >

> > > Played with a visiting 1 handicap today. He said the straight shot is the best shot in golf and he proved it by hitting it straight down the middle all day. Pretty to watch. He was hitting a Taylormade Burner driver from about 2008 and some similar vintage GI irons. Guys like him just prove the old saying it is the Indian not the arrow.

> >

> > Indians appreciate the difference in arrows. I played with my club pro yesterday, and he was testing shafts looking for something that reliably allowed him to move the ball left to right. He argued strongly seeking a straight shot only succeeded in giving you a two-way miss. He felt he needed to take the left side of the course out of play. The point is that you can find a good player who will advocate every possible playing style. Some guys want to hit straight; some guys want to work the ball both ways; some guys are trying to optimize one particular shape. As for whether GI irons are harder to work, Ralph Maltby's opinion was that there is nothing about a clubhead that affects your ability to work the ball. I'm not sure I agree with that, but he designs clubheads and I don't.

>

> I think that’s where this thread is a little derailed, the issue was do GI clubs make it more difficult to work the ball.

>

> I designed golf clubs for 10 years for taylormade, Bridgestone, sonartec and nickent. There isn’t anyone that will argue clubs don’t affect a players ability to shape a shot.

>

> If I hand a player an iron bent 6 degree flat with a 1” inch sole and raided the leading edge .25” including decreasing sole radius it will be next to impossible to strike the ball well and hit it consistently with a draw.

>

> With a driver that doesn’t touch the ground, I could add all the weight to the back and toe, change bulge and roll which will make the best shots on the driver be heelside strikes with a high draw. They can hit toe shots but it will be very difficult to shut the face and being that off center to CG will lose distance. So club design absolutely can prevent a player from hitting shots.

There you have it folks.