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Driver data, frustration, am I missing something?


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Hey all, I'm trying to really dial my driver in and im sick of messing with it. And now I've reached the end of my knowledge and im stuck. I've got my numbers with a Mizuno ST-190 9.5 set down to 8.5 with a Tensei White 60TX. And looking at them next to 3 pros who are some of the best at driving the ball and I can't understand where I'm not hitting closer to those numbers. (Of course I'm not trying to say I'm playing like them just trying to compare numbers to some of the best!)

 

First my spin is considerably higher, well above 2500 and it used to be that way when I was struggling with a downward AoA but I thought it would start to correct with the more optimized launch conditions I have now. Is this purely a bad fit for me and that's the spin problem? Rahm is at 1645, JT at 1804 and DJ at 2016 (DJs numbers are from the WGC-Mexico so the carry is absurd but the rest of the numbers are good)

 

Secondary to that is their loft, I'm confused by it. I've got those numbers with a mizuno st190 set down a degree to 8.5. Thinking I needed the lower loft for proper spin and launch but DJ has his classic speeder 661 in a 10.5 m5/6 head that I've seen some places is actually at about 11 degrees. JT has a TS3 at 9.5 with an untipped mid launching Diamana BF60TX. And Rahm has an M5 10.5 set down to 9.75 and an Aldila Tour Green 75tx. I would have said looking at these specs they'd launch too high and spin too much for them, clearly that isn't right at all. Would more loft benefit me too? Was I mis-fit for lower loft?

 

Really in conclusion, what do I need to do to get closer to those numbers? If it's swing that's fine I get that but I don't think my numbers swing wise are too bad, they're pretty good. And if something can help here setup wise that's why I wanted to ask.

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They are just slightly better at controlling their impact location and making use of the head gear effect to dump some of their spin. More than likely nothing more than that.

 

Could also be a little bit due to the ball type they are using, etc.

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You are triangulating information gleaned from various sources about what someone supposes are these guys' club specs. Then trying to compare it to the nominal specs of your own club.

 

Leaving aside the fact that your swing is nothing at all like theirs, the comparisons of equipment you're making are not valid. You may know your Trackman results in accurate detail the rest is just speculation and hearsay.

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> @"North Butte" said:

> You are triangulating information gleaned from various sources about what someone supposes are these guys' club specs. Then trying to compare it to the nominal specs of your own club.

>

> Leaving aside the fact that your swing is nothing at all like theirs, the comparisons of equipment you're making are not valid. You may know your Trackman results in accurate detail the rest is just speculation and hearsay.

 

Well ok, I mean some of that info is from here or straight from the guy that builds the clubs for these guys I wouldn't say those are bad sources but alright.

 

I was just trying to get better. I just don't know how else to find information like this, just blindly get fit without comparing it to anything or anyone? I just wanted to try to get a bit more consistent distance with a touch lower spin and hit better drives and thought this was the right way to ask that question about my setup by comparing it to some of the world's best.

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The answer is, work on your swing, optimize your equipment for your swing (if you have access to a good launch monitor setup) and don't try to compare the numbers you see to secondhand speculation about Tour players clubs. What they play doesn't matter, it's all about getting the most out of your body and your equipment.

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> @"North Butte" said:

> The answer is, work on your swing, optimize your equipment for your swing (if you have access to a good launch monitor setup) and don't try to compare the numbers you see to secondhand speculation about Tour players clubs. What they play doesn't matter, it's all about getting the most out of your body and your equipment.

 

Ok, then I should've just rephrased all of this and what I was trying to say with all of this what can be better with my trackman data above? That club hasn't performed anything like I want it to and the rest of my game is working well and i don't think it's swing related. Also, an older driver has been working better than this too and I just don't know why and I was thinking more loft (like those pros, why I made the comparison) may benefit my game when I previously thought it wouldn't ever.

 

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What's your strike position on the face? Lower on the face will mean more spin because of vertical gear effect.

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Most likely strike location more than anything. As others have said, with how much you are hitting up on it I'd guess you are striking it low on the face where as most pros hit it slightly above center to knock off spin. Can't really compare static loft without looking at your swing, DJ and Rahm both get their hands pretty forward even with the big stick, where as you are likely flipping.

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> @Krt22 said:

> Most likely strike location more than anything. As others have said, with how much you are hitting up on it I'd guess you are striking it low on the face where as most pros hit it slightly above center to knock off spin. Can't really compare static loft without looking at your swing, DJ and Rahm both get their hands pretty forward even with the big stick, where as you are likely flipping.

 

10* of spin loft doesn't really suggest a flip.

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I wouldn't mess around with anything to be honest. Is an overhaul with some performance pain for an additional 5 yards worth it?

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> @jvincent said:

> What's your strike position on the face? Lower on the face will mean more spin because of vertical gear effect.

 

I don't have it on this set of data but I'd say my bigger miss is high on the face, I certainly don't find myself consistently hitting it low on the face.

 

To the comment above this one, I'm not trying to chase distance, just accuracy mostly with this thread I guess and it could add distance, thinking some of this may help with that like less spin and more loft. My miss is a high right ball and with the face opening to get the mizuno down to 8.5 degrees I think it accentuates that miss. Maybe I'm wrong on that too! I try to be very knowledgeable on all this but I do get stuck like this from time to time.

 

 

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> @Golfrnut said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > Most likely strike location more than anything. As others have said, with how much you are hitting up on it I'd guess you are striking it low on the face where as most pros hit it slightly above center to knock off spin. Can't really compare static loft without looking at your swing, DJ and Rahm both get their hands pretty forward even with the big stick, where as you are likely flipping.

>

> 10* of spin loft doesn't really suggest a flip.

 

Perhaps not a flip per say but he's delivering similar dynamic loft while using lower static loft, was simply saying going to higher static loft isnt going to help him out as he's already launching it plenty high for that speed

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I just got fitted with the same driver, ST190, Tensei White X flex no tipping. But I only swing 106 mph range and my spin was right around 2500 rpm. Loving this driver, everything about it. I play it at -1* and upright setting. According to a chart in another thread (https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/comment/18862323#Comment_18862323) it is the #6 position with 8.375* loft, 60.25 lie angle, +1.5* face angle. Have you tried the #7 position with 7.25* loft, +3 face angle? You did say a right miss so that might hurt you.

 

JT is carrying 296 yards with 316 total at 116 mph on that chart. You essentially beat him on all your 5 strikes listed. Within a very small margin of error we are talking a few yards. What is the problem again? Your spin maybe. You swing fast. Try tipping the White TX.? Or based on that good thread on here the Tensei Orange Pro seemed to be low spin monster. Did you try any other shafts and what were the results? 150 peak height does seem a tad high.

 

I think your splitting a split hair at this point.

 

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This

 

 

> @Krt22 said:

> ........ DJ and Rahm both get their hands pretty forward even with the big stick, where as you are likely flipping.

 

 

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I mean everyone is giving you good advice. Your numbers are very good. At the speed you) are hitting the ball you are already very accurate. You may not think you are but if the ball is on the golf course at 175+ mph its accurate. I think you need to look at a different accuracy metric than whatever you are using. Start using percent deviation or degree's (like Broadie) instead of yards from center.

 

I've been grinding on my driver as well ( I have my own gc2) and I've been tinkering a bit to get my average spin down a bit while maintaining a decent launch window. I could probably keep tweaking to get my spin down a bit but at some point you have to say its good enough. And realize that most of the higher spin shots are purely strike and we are talking a few mm's here.

 

Easy suggestions;

1. Get with a great fitter to optimize. Spend a couple hours doing some tweaks with an expert.

2. Grab a few different balls and see the difference they can make on launch and spin. It can be the missing piece.

 

Also one thing to note, if your primary concern is accuracy , slightly higher spin is your friend not your enemy.

 

And one final thing , this isn't nearly passive enough for the passive brag bruh :p

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> @Yrrdead said:

> I mean everyone is giving you good advice. Your numbers are very good. At the speed you) are hitting the ball you are already very accurate. You may not think you are but if the ball is on the golf course at 175+ mph its accurate. I think you need to look at a different accuracy metric than whatever you are using. Start using percent deviation or degree's (like Broadie) instead of yards from center.

>

> I've been grinding on my driver as well ( I have my own gc2) and I've been tinkering a bit to get my average spin down a bit while maintaining a decent launch window. I could probably keep tweaking to get my spin down a bit but at some point you have to say its good enough. And realize that most of the higher spin shots are purely strike and we are talking a few mm's here.

>

> Easy suggestions;

> 1. Get with a great fitter to optimize. Spend a couple hours doing some tweaks with an expert.

> 2. Grab a few different balls and see the difference they can make on launch and spin. It can be the missing piece.

>

> Also one thing to note, if your primary concern is accuracy , slightly higher spin is your friend not your enemy.

>

> And one final thing , this isn't nearly passive enough for the passive brag bruh :p

 

I'm fixing it all, and I appreciate all the advice, just was frustrated and phrased this all a little poorly. After some testing today put it at 9.5 standard and saw some better results than at lower with the face open. Passive bragging was never my goal, but I get how it came off like that. I'm gonna worry less and just play, sometimes you need to hear "shut up" and those numbers are good to quit worrying about it and well, I got that without a doubt haha. Golfwrx to the rescue, thanks all.

 

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> @"North Butte" said:

> You are triangulating information gleaned from various sources about what someone supposes are these guys' club specs. Then trying to compare it to the nominal specs of your own club.

>

> Leaving aside the fact that your swing is nothing at all like theirs, the comparisons of equipment you're making are not valid. You may know your Trackman results in accurate detail the rest is just speculation and hearsay.

 

If this was a swing issue, then tell the player whats wrong, you got the LM report in front of you..,..if you dont see whats wrong, its because there is nothing wrong with his swing, the report should tell you if you know what you are talking about.

 

This it NOT a swing issue, its simply a impact posision issue, it take a few minutes to solve.

Impact is to low on the face and to much heel side, thats why his spin values is higher than he wants and PTR value a bit lower than ideal.

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > You are triangulating information gleaned from various sources about what someone supposes are these guys' club specs. Then trying to compare it to the nominal specs of your own club.

> >

> > Leaving aside the fact that your swing is nothing at all like theirs, the comparisons of equipment you're making are not valid. You may know your Trackman results in accurate detail the rest is just speculation and hearsay.

>

> If this was a swing issue, then tell the player whats wrong, you got the LM report in front of you..,..if you dont see whats wrong, its because there is nothing wrong with his swing, the report should tell you if you know what you are talking about.

>

> This it NOT a swing issue, its simply a impact posision issue, it take a few minutes to solve.

> Impact is to low on the face and to much heel side, thats why his spin values is higher than he wants and PTR value a bit lower than ideal.

>

> https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

 

Agreed with Howard. Given the data we have this is a VERY simple problem. To the OP, I highly doubt your miss was high on the face as it is almost impossible to get spin that high with an above CoG strike. Check Howard's thread and remember that virtually ALL driver sweet spot locations are actually above the visual center off the face. What you may think is center is actually low, what you think is high might be centered and what you think is a high miss might actually be your optimum strike point.

 

I totally get your frustration, you want the data to line up better than it is. You have plenty of speed and pretty decent numbers but you're losing that last 5% with your average spin numbers and that HAS to be strike related as nothing else presents as a cause. Follow Howard's thread to figure that out and you'll see those spin numbers come down to the lower 2,000s, if not sub 2k.

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I just want to add that Vertical Gear effects punish the high club speed player more than anyone else, but the other way, this "monster players" can also get away with it, and take advantage of it just like anyone else. If we look at how much spin different club speed generate when we go up or down by 1* on loft we get this Key numbers

80 mph = 208

90 mpg = 234

100 mph = 260

110 mph = 286

120 mph = 312

If club speed goes up 50% (80 to 120), spin goes up 50% (208 to 312)

 

That means "all errors" this high club speed players do, (flipping or low impact), punish more as RPMs then it does for a 80-90 mph club speed player, so impact becomes just as important for those players to avoid spin and ballooning, as it is for the low CS player to get a good impact for ball speed reasons alone. The high club speed players dont need the added distance, but thats what you get when we avoid to high spin values and a bit better launch (higher, since actual loft is a bit higher further up on the face)

 

A tune up should also improve sideways dispersion, but and im not sure what this players preferred ball flight is, but "it seems fine" if its a small fade, expect for PTR and spin value, but that its quite easy to improve when we know where VCOG on the actual head is. (instructions in the link)

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