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Do lower spin driver heads curve more?


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Experimenting with epic flash and epic sub zero heads. Are lower spinning heads in general effected by side spin more?

 

Natural swing is in to out draw. Driver AoA is ~ 5-6 up. Purposely catch the ball on the top half of the face to reduce spin and increase LA.

 

We can get the LA up > 15 with spin 1500 - 2000 rpm using a 10.5 opened to 9.5 since the open face helps.

 

I plan on testing side by side but curious if what we are seeing is real or just a one off or we haven't hit enough balls to see a true pattern. Seems like the lower the backspin goes the more dominant the draw spin is.

 

For example converting spin axis to side spin using the quad...

Scenario 1 - 2400 back spin, 400 left side spin, everything else equal

Scenario 2 - 1500 back spin, 400 left side spin, everything else equal

Should Scenario 2 curve more to the left because the side spin is more dominant?

 

 

 

 

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From a raw technical standpoint, yes, but its important to understand why as well as correctly define the terms being used.   Thinking of it as "side spin" can be very misleading and it is best to l

From what I know true backspin will stabilize the ball flight. When spin is lower the axis of the spin shifts easier. Causing more curvature.

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This is what so many people seem to not quite get when they are looking for the lowest possible back spin numbers. There is always a give and take. You can't have both super low spin and forgiveness on misses. You have to decide based on your game what side of the scale you want the driver to be on. If you have that CG pushed way up towards the face, your good hits may be massive but your misses will also be massive, massively offline.

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For me, the right shaft vs low spin head was more important since the shot dispersion was much tighter.

 

With that said, I play the Epic SZ. Other brands I was hitting would equate excess of 4500 rpm which could net 40 yards loss.

 

My current head and shaft combos brings it down to 2000 rpm.

 

To be honest, all the driver heads nowadays are easy to hit.

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From a raw technical standpoint, yes, but its important to understand why as well as correctly define the terms being used.

 

Thinking of it as "side spin" can be very misleading and it is best to look at it for what it actually is; spin axis. Your club face angle at impact and where you strike the face both determine the axis on which the ball will spin. The GREATER the amount of spin, the more that axis must be tilted to influence ball flight. This is why super low spin drivers are often considered "unstable", because the lower the spin, the less spin axis tilt is necessary to cause the ball to curve. This gets compounded by the fact that drivers that achieve their potential lower spin via lower MOI are subject to increased gear effects on heel/toe strikes, and these gear effects tilt the spin axis as well. This is why drivers like the original SLDR could be so long and yet so wild, and why tour pros don't tend to target sub 2k spin numbers. This is also why Titleist drivers had the reputation for being more accurate and stable, they spun more due to higher CG then many of their competitors at the time.

 

So to address your hypothetical scenario, a ball with 2,400 spin and one of with 1,500 spin, if the spin axis tilt is the same then the 1,500 spin ball will curve more, yes.

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> @Valtiel said:

> From a raw technical standpoint, yes, but its important to understand why as well as correctly define the terms being used.

>

> Thinking of it as "side spin" can be very misleading and it is best to look at it for what it actually is; spin axis. Your club face angle at impact and where you strike the face both determine the axis on which the ball will spin. The GREATER the amount of spin, the more that axis must be tilted to influence ball flight. This is why super low spin drivers are often considered "unstable", because the lower the spin, the less spin axis tilt is necessary to cause the ball to curve. This gets compounded by the fact that drivers that achieve their potential lower spin via lower MOI are subject to increased gear effects on heel/toe strikes, and these gear effects tilt the spin axis as well. This is why drivers like the original SLDR could be so long and yet so wild, and why tour pros don't tend to target sub 2k spin numbers. This is also why Titleist drivers had the reputation for being more accurate and stable, they spun more due to higher CG then many of their competitors at the time.

>

> So to address your hypothetical scenario, a ball with 2,400 spin and one of with 1,500 spin, if the spin axis tilt is the same then the 1,500 spin ball will curve more, yes.

 

Correct, but lets not mix cause and effect like we are close to here.

 

If we look at directional forgiveness, the club heads RCOG measurement becomes important, and as a general rule, we know that the longer RCOG is, the more dynamic loft is added. But...to a certain point, we can use a shaft profile that prevent this added loft, and still take Advantage of a long RCOG for forgiveness.

 

The tilt on the spin axis, caused by Face angle vs path, and impact position and both horizontal and Vertical gear effects, is different depending on the club heads RCOG, so the lower this number is, the more will the spin axis tilt, and thats how we are punished, so be aware of whats cause and whats the effect.

 

Its not low spin itself that causes more curve on the ball, its a LOW RCOG number that cause more tilt on the ball at the same impact conditions, so if RCOG was further back, "all else equal", we can keep low spin, and lower the tilt caused by hits outside COG.

 

Try to move RCOG as long back as possible, and dial back down on static loft/hosel settings.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > From a raw technical standpoint, yes, but its important to understand why as well as correctly define the terms being used.

> >

> > Thinking of it as "side spin" can be very misleading and it is best to look at it for what it actually is; spin axis. Your club face angle at impact and where you strike the face both determine the axis on which the ball will spin. The GREATER the amount of spin, the more that axis must be tilted to influence ball flight. This is why super low spin drivers are often considered "unstable", because the lower the spin, the less spin axis tilt is necessary to cause the ball to curve. This gets compounded by the fact that drivers that achieve their potential lower spin via lower MOI are subject to increased gear effects on heel/toe strikes, and these gear effects tilt the spin axis as well. This is why drivers like the original SLDR could be so long and yet so wild, and why tour pros don't tend to target sub 2k spin numbers. This is also why Titleist drivers had the reputation for being more accurate and stable, they spun more due to higher CG then many of their competitors at the time.

> >

> > So to address your hypothetical scenario, a ball with 2,400 spin and one of with 1,500 spin, if the spin axis tilt is the same then the 1,500 spin ball will curve more, yes.

>

> Correct, but lets not mix cause and effect like we are close to here.

>

> If we look at directional forgiveness, the club heads RCOG measurement becomes important, and as a general rule, we know that the longer RCOG is, the more dynamic loft is added. But...to a certain point, we can use a shaft profile that prevent this added loft, and still take Advantage of a long RCOG for forgiveness.

>

> The tilt on the spin axis, caused by Face angle vs path, and impact position and both horizontal and Vertical gear effects, is different depending on the club heads RCOG, so the lower this number is, the more will the spin axis tilt, and thats how we are punished, so be aware of whats cause and whats the effect.

>

> Its not low spin itself that causes more curve on the ball, its a LOW RCOG number that cause more tilt on the ball at the same impact conditions, so if RCOG was further back, "all else equal", we can keep low spin, and lower the tilt caused by hits outside COG.

>

> Try to move RCOG as long back as possible, and dial back down on static loft/hosel settings.

 

Oh yeah I agree, and I didn't mean to imply that low spin causes these things, just that a ball with less spin is more susceptible to what you just detailed.

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> @thepinkbomber said:

> Everyone, thank you. This explains what I am seeing. When caught pure it is longer. But the misses are wild. Toe misses seem to hook a lot more.

 

Toe Hooks is caused by Horizontal Gear effects.

- A short RCOG makes this BAD (strong gear effect - more twisting at impact)

- a long RCOG straiten out ball flight (less strong gear effect - less twisting at impact)

 

Imagine a strait line from the impact spot on the face and directly trough RCOG

The closer to the face RCOG is, the more to the right or left this line points.

The further back from the face we can move RCOG, the more strait and "target line" this line goes. That gives us a good "visual idea" of mishit direction .

 

Use static loft to lower Dynamic loft, a forward RCOG is not beneficial since we have to pay with directional forgiveness, so let the weights stay in the back, and dial down loft if needed. A good impact above the center line will no matter what eat spin due to horizontal gear effects, so we should not worry about spin before we have dialed in a good impact area, then this numbers tends to fall into place by them self.

 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @thepinkbomber said:

> > Everyone, thank you. This explains what I am seeing. When caught pure it is longer. But the misses are wild. Toe misses seem to hook a lot more.

>

> Toe Hooks is caused by Horizontal Gear effects.

> - A short RCOG makes this BAD (strong gear effect - more twisting at impact)

> - a long RCOG straiten out ball flight (less strong gear effect - less twisting at impact)

>

> Imagine a strait line from the impact spot on the face and directly trough RCOG

> The closer to the face RCOG is, the more to the right or left this line points.

> The further back from the face we can move RCOG, the more strait and "target line" this line goes. That gives us a good "visual idea" of mishit direction .

>

> Use static loft to lower Dynamic loft, a forward RCOG is not beneficial since we have to pay with directional forgiveness, so let the weights stay in the back, and dial down loft if needed. A good impact above the center line will no matter what eat spin due to horizontal gear effects, so we should not worry about spin before we have dialed in a good impact area, then this numbers tends to fall into place by them self.

>

> https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/909991/diy-driver-tune-up-diy-fitting/p1

 

Thank you Howard.

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