Iron Shaft Question

[jbhawx]

Hello WRXers,

 

I haven't posted in a while since moving to Okinawa. However; I am in the need of some opinions and advice regarding shaft options.

For almost a month, I have been using an indoor launch monitor at a local shop (Foresight) to test and record shot data using various heads, shafts, and lie adjustments. My goal is to narrow down a better shaft than what I play now, DGS300. In my opinion the flight is too low, and the spin is too low. I also am looking for a lighter shaft as well (less taxing on the body). Of course, I'm limited in options to try, basically only the Mizuno Fit Cart (and being it is Japan, they don't have x flex in every shaft model either). Below is the data I've recorded from the shop (averaged based on all shots of course). Also, for those who will ask, the same MMC head was used with all shafts.

1. Shaft, Club Speed, Ball Speed, Launch, Carry, Total, Offline

2. Nippon 105s, 77.25, 105, 20.8, 143, 155, -6

3. Nippon 120s, 73.75, 100.25, 20.2, 139, 155, -16

4. Nippon 120x, 74.5, 101.25, 21.9, 137, 148, 4

5. Nippon 125x, 71.75, 97.5, 20.3, 132, 147, -8

 

From what I've learned, the fastest and longest is the 105s. The most accurate is 120x. When it comes to feel, the 105s feels a tad too light (even the employees say its too light). The 120s feels the most fluid. The 125x is very taxing and heavy. When using an x flex shaft however, the dispersion seems to be far tighter and more centered (less offline). Oddly enough the Mizuno 3d shaft optimizer (3 times now as the #1) has recommended 125x shaft (hince why it is listed). Also in the top 5 is 120x and 120s. Unfortunitly, the fit cart doesn't have a 105x, and I've been to 3 locations hoping someone had it.

 

Which leads me to my question. The 120s and 105x weigh virtually the same. So is the 105x a good shaft to consider or is a shaft I've already tested good enough? Since I can't try it out for here I hope the WRX community could provide some feedback. My thoughts are the flight pattern of the 105x will mimic the 105s (same L profile, launch, and spin characteristics), the feel will mimic the 120s (same weight), and I should see my offline move more to center along with a smaller dispersion (as observed by using stiffer shaft).

 

Also if you have any other recommendations that would give a higher launch and a bit more spin please feel free to recommend away.

 

Thank you all very much for your feedback.

 

 

 

[burns9304]

Are all of your readings from your fitting in miles per hour for speed and yards for the distance? Are all of these numbers with a 6 iron?

[jbhawx]

> @burns9304 said:

> Are all of your readings from your fitting in miles per hour for speed and yards for the distance? Are all of these numbers with a 6 iron?

 

Yes, speed is converted to MPH, and distance is in yards (I think the only thing that Japan uses the imperial system for lol). All the numbers are based on a 7 iron.

[burns9304]

With that being the case, I think you are getting some false readings from the Mizuno shaft optimizer or some poor advice from the person running it. From my experience with the shaft optimizer your swing speed would put you in the regular or soft stiff range and no where near an X flex let alone a ~130 gram X flex. The shaft optimizer is always just starting point and never a definitive answer.

 

As for a shaft recommendation, I think the Project X LZ 5.5 might be right up your alley. Same weight area of the Modus 120S you liked the feel of and should launch higher and spin more than your DG S300.

[jbhawx]

Totally understand what you are getting at. On the Optimizer I recorded a swing speed of 85 MPH on average with a tempo of 7, Toe down of 6, kick angle of 9, and release factor of 5. When using the American version of the app I get totally different results (so something to be said about region and what shafts are available). However; keep in mind the averages I listed are not based on the Optimizer. I'm not trying to get into the whole debate on proper flex either.

 

The shot collection I have is around 150 shots over the course of weeks using the same launch monitor. The average for my top 10% of shots have my club speed at 80 (my fastest recorded is 89), ball speed at 108, 148 yard carry, 161 yards total. On the flip side, the average of my bottom 10% of shots have my club speed at 70, ball speed at 100, carry at 116 and total at 129. You could say I'm very data driven.

 

I have not thought about the Project X LZ 5.5. Thank you for the recommendation, I'll be sure to test it out and see how it goes if they have one in the cart lol.

[DaveMac]

 

> Which leads me to my question.

The 120s and 105x weigh virtually the same. So is the 105x a good shaft to consider or is a shaft I've already tested good enough? Since I can't try it out for here I hope the WRX community could provide some feedback. My thoughts are the flight pattern of the 105x will mimic the 105s (same L profile, launch, and spin characteristics), the feel will mimic the 120s (same weight), and I should see my offline move more to center along with a smaller dispersion (as observed by using stiffer shaft).

>

> Also if you have any other recommendations that would give a higher launch and a bit more spin please feel free to recommend away.

>

There is something peculiar going on here. I haven’t seen such a wide discrepancy between a players’ DNA swing speed and their golf club swing speed. I also find the large variation in your swing speed (~17mph) while testing to be unusual. Awful swings are just that and should be deleted from your data.

Would you confirm if the foresight launch monitor has club head monitoring capability (GC2 HMT or Quad)?

I know it’s fascinating tracking data looking for that goldilocks combination, like many on here I have gone on similar quests myself. IMO shaft matching is not the precise science you are chasing, in essence I think you could play a reasonable wide collection of shafts and get the same performance / enjoyment.

I agree with the early poster suggesting you should be looking at softer flexes than you are currently testing, the wide variation in your data suggests you are trying to make your swing accommodate the shaft, rather than getting a shaft to match your swing.

Put your ego to one side and test a wider range from alternative manufacturers (I understand Nippon’s position in the Asian market).

I’d start with the KBS Tour regular, it’s much stronger than the flex label and it has the potential to offer the changes you are looking for.

The fitting guidelines are weight, bend profile and finally flex. Keep it simple and prioritise feel and consistency, over launch monitor data.

 

Hope you find something you like.

 

 

 

[Tommyj]

The data you've provided shows a carry distance range of 132-143, is that close to your actual numbers on the course? If it is then I would have to ask why you are testing X flex shafts? Your club speed of 72-77, combined with your carry distance, would probably put you somewhere between R and S. I think the reason you are getting the best numbers from the 105S is that the Modus 105 plays soft to flex, so the S is more like an R+. All the other shafts are too stiff, so you are not properly loading them and therefore getting lower numbers on Foresight.

 

Just a suggestion, what do the pros at your local shop think? Surely they can't be suggesting X flex based on the Foresight numbers.

[jbhawx]

 

I am unaware of the exact model of foresight. However; I have used demo clubs with the white dots on them, and get different, and probably more accurate results. For example I used a Srixon Z785 and had a club speed between 83 and 89, which is far more consistent than the 17 mph difference. The same results showed with a P790 and P760 demo which both had the white dots on the face. The club speed varied by less than 6 mph. All the shots with the MMC head didn't have the white dots. The biggest thing I see is the smash factor differs. All the shots I have recorded without the white dots have a smash factor of 1.36. So I assume, after doing some research, that it is using the smash factor to determine club head speed based off the ball speed. This would explain the discrepancy with the Mizuno Optimizer and the huge loss of club head speed I see between using the Mizuno club cart and demo clubs with the white dots on the face.

 

As far as flex goes, I really don't want to debate about it. It is also not an ego thing. With a regular flex, I am prone to a slice or a push, a stiff flex is just fine for me, I've never used an x flex until here on a demo club. I understand the arguement quite well. The only x flex I'm considering is the 105x and solely based on it having the same weight as the 120s. Since the L profiles are different, I'm curious if I'd see a different flight path with the 105x. Who knows a Project X shaft may be even better, or maybe a recoil graphite shaft, or an AMT white or black, or a flighted KBS, KBS Tour v, KBS Tour 90, etc. Who knows.

 

Unfortunity there are no pros I can rely on here. The golf shop here is like a golf galaxy in the states, and the employees focus almost solely on total distance and straight shots. They don't dive into club head speed, ball speed, peak height, spin, etc. They see where it ends and if it is long and straight, that is good lol. I have seen a fitter through the military courses, and of course they recommended a DGS300, the same shaft I already play, especially after saying I was looking for a lighter shaft and tighter dispersion.

 

The carry distance of 134-143 is also what I see on the course. I play MP-5s and my typical yardage is right in that range. The MMCs do play longer on the launch monitor by a few yards, the MP-18s put up the same distance as what I see in my MP-5s, so I contributed that to the slightly stronger lofts.

 

As far as the recommending an x flex, what occurs is they give me the mizuno optimizer hit a few shots and setup a club with the #1 recommended shaft, which has been a Nippon 125x. Once the #1 recommended head was an mp-18 and another time it was MMC (really wierd). One location had a totally different launch monitor and was recording 171 yards total on average with a 7 iron MP-18 with a Nippon 125x shaft. They were like, that is the combo you need. Now, realistically I know I can't see 171 yards with an MP-18 with that shaft, I have never seen 171 yards with a 7 iron.

 

[jbhawx]

I wanted to add a little more data because I think looking at numbers alone is not enough. Below are all the shafts I've tested with the MMC head. I also removed the outliners.

 

Outliners Removed

KBS Tour s: 1

105s: 5

120s: 0

120x: 3

125x: 3

1050GH s: 3

 

My observations are as follows. The 105s is probably too light/soft and resulted in a larger dispersion and 5 outliners removed. If I removed the two farthest out shots, it would be the tightest, most centered, and farthest dispersion. The 120s is by far the tightest dispersion, even factoring in no outliners were removed. The 120x is the straightest, and the larger dispersion may be due to a slightly heavier weight. The 125x is the second straightest, but the weight is definitely contributing to less distance and a larger dispersion. The 1050GH is near identical to the 120s and weight wise sits between the 105s and 120s, however; 3 outliners puts it behind the 120s. The KBS Tour s is almost identical to the 120x however the dispersion is more left of center.

 

As I've mentioned before, the "flex" doesn't seem to matter. All of these are based on a stiff or higher flex. From this point of view, I am able to draw the conclusion that a 105x would tighten the dispersion and be more centered than the 120s, which is why I asked that specific question. This is based on what is visually seen in the raw data. I can't stress enough that it is not an ego power trip to play an x flex. I wouldn't ask the question if the fit cart had a 105x.

 

Other shaft recommendations are always welcome to, I know I'm stuck on the whole Nippon right now, However I am open to just about anything, including graphite. I've added the Project X LZ 5.5 to my list to try, along with DG AMT, Nippon 950GH. I greatly appreciate all the feedback so far.

 

Thank you very much!

[DaveMac]

The dots on the clubs are required by the head tracking camera of the launch monitor (GC2 with HMT or GC Quad) these monitor’s will give accurate club head speed.

You have captured a lot of data, my interpretation is very different from your own analysis. The Modus 105 is the worst shaft in the test.

 

Don’t take this the wrong way but dispersion of 55 yards left to 43 yards right shows you will benefit from a little input from a golf coach as there must be a significant amount of face rotation in your swing.

 

The interesting thing from the dispersion data is the Nippon NS Pro 1050 produced significantly a tighter shot pattern than the Modus. You’d be surprised to learn it is exactly the same weight as the Modus 105 but it is fractionally softer in overall strength than the Modus 105 (it is a little firmer in the butt and a little softer in the tip). This should confirm you don’t need to test the Modus 105 X.

The Modus 120 actually looks the best on this test, the fact the grouping is left isn’t a problem, as this can be corrected with a lie angle tweak.

I’d certainly recommend you retest the Modus 120 using a more forgiving head (JPX 919 Forged or 919 Hot Metal Pro) and see if this tightens your long/short dispersion. Might also be worthwhile adding the Dynamic Gold 105 and 120 S300 into the test since you are comfortable with this shaft family.

 

[Tommyj]

You confirmed that your actual carry on the course is 134-143. Based on that, it is absurd that the Mizuno optimizer, if properly set up, would ever recommend the Modus 125X. I know you don't want to debate shaft flex, but with that carry you're not a 105X.

 

Looking at the data you provided, you appear to have up to 30 yard gaps between your longest and shortest shots. Do you think you might be better served trying something more forgiving than the MMC? Maybe just try it, hit the Hot Metal (not the Pro) and see if your distances are more consistent.

[Little Ned]

This thread feels like my life. Same swing speed. I haven’t been able to test everything out as extensively as you have but my carry is nearly identical in my Steelfibers. I tried the XP 95 R today in the G410 and got 5-10 yards more carry and a better dispersion. I found it odd, though, that my ball flight was lower in the XP’s. It should have been higher right??

 

Tomorrow I’d like to try a heavier shaft like the Modus 105 R to see how that affects things. Any guesses?

[Tommyj]

> @"Little Ned" said:

> This thread feels like my life. Same swing speed. I haven’t been able to test everything out as extensively as you have but my carry is nearly identical in my Steelfibers. I tried the XP 95 R today in the G410 and got 5-10 yards more carry and a better dispersion. I found it odd, though, that my ball flight was lower in the XP’s. It should have been higher right??

>

> Tomorrow I’d like to try a heavier shaft like the Modus 105 R to see how that affects things. Any guesses?

 

Depends on what weight and flex Steelfibre you currently play and in which iron head - also a Ping G series or something else? Guess is that results with Modus 105 R will be virtually identical to XP 95. Try Nippon 950GH or 850GH to get higher trajectory and more pop in distance. Also better feel than XP 95.

[Little Ned]

> @Tommyj said:

> > @"Little Ned" said:

> > This thread feels like my life. Same swing speed. I haven’t been able to test everything out as extensively as you have but my carry is nearly identical in my Steelfibers. I tried the XP 95 R today in the G410 and got 5-10 yards more carry and a better dispersion. I found it odd, though, that my ball flight was lower in the XP’s. It should have been higher right??

> >

> > Tomorrow I’d like to try a heavier shaft like the Modus 105 R to see how that affects things. Any guesses?

>

> Depends on what weight and flex Steelfibre you currently play and in which iron head - also a Ping G series or something else? Guess is that results with Modus 105 R will be virtually identical to XP 95. Try Nippon 950GH or 850GH to get higher trajectory and more pop in distance. Also better feel than XP 95.

 

Steelfiber i95 R ... And yes, it was in my Ping G. Should I expect the Modus 105R to be heavier but provide more flex? And to clarify my original quote about the XP 95 providing lower flight, I was comparing it to my G’s with Steelfiber.

 

What kind of feel do the Modus 105R provide?

[nsxguy]

I don't understand.

 

You're using DGS300 now and a fitter recommends said shaft but you want lighter. May I ask why ?

 

Just my opinion/results but the DGS300 easily had the best dispersion of all the steel shafts I tried at a "loss" of about 2 yards from most of the other shafts. Do you have some physical issue ?

 

Also, as Dave mentioned you have numbers posted in the OP with a SS of 72 and a max SS of 89. Something is VERY wrong there. My SS is right around 77 or so and I carry a 32* 7 iron about 152 with the DGS300s. If you're carrying the 7 iron from 136-143 there is no way you're swinging at 89 unless those shots are all misses. At 89 your carry should be at least 165.

 

I don't know how good your Snake Eyes club heads are but those MMC heads are not all that forgiving,,,,,,,,,,,,

 

Good luck.

[jbhawx]

Thanks so much for all the feedback. I can see how the 1050 is a tighter dispersion and perhaps far more centered as well. I also plan to test out the 120s with a more upright lie to see if it corrects the left tendency.

 

A more forgiving club may actually help as well. The MP-5s I play are definitely not as forgiving. Unfortunately over here the only heads in the Mizuno cart are the MP-18 line and the Japanese market only JPX head. So I’m not able to test a JPX 919 hot metal, forged, or even HM Pro. If I could I absolutely would.

 

I play MP-5s now and just haven’t updated my signiture block. They are properly too much for my skill, however I do hit them fairly straight. The problem is they are always shorter. The lofts are also a traditional as well, and with the low launch from the DGS300 and the weaker lofts, I attribute that to the overall shorter distance. I have no doubt that if I put the dots on the face and use it on a launch monitor I would find that I’m not as efficient either, and that also plays a role. My thoughts are a higher launching shaft should restore the distance shortage I see and I’d be able to stick to more traditional lofts and a compact head, which I prefer. A more forgiving head would probably be huge benefit as well.

 

The fitter I went to, IMO wasn’t a good experience. He basically did nothing of value for me and said to come back later because I had a few swing faults. He only had me try the DGS300, and AMT. I hadn’t played for a while, so that attributed to the faults at the time. However I’ve corrected a lot of them and don’t feel like wasting money going back to the same guy. However I believe he does have a ping and US version of the Mizuno cart, so it could be worth it. I hope that answers why I want a lighter shaft than the DGS300. Plus I walk, and the shaft wears you out so much faster through 18 holes lol

[jbhawx]

> @nsxguy said:

> I don't understand.

>

> You're using DGS300 now and a fitter recommends said shaft but you want lighter. May I ask why ?

>

> Just my opinion/results but the DGS300 easily had the best dispersion of all the steel shafts I tried at a "loss" of about 2 yards from most of the other shafts. Do you have some physical issue ?

>

> Also, as Dave mentioned you have numbers posted in the OP with a SS of 72 and a max SS of 89. Something is VERY wrong there. My SS is right around 77 or so and I carry a 32* 7 iron about 152 with the DGS300s. If you're carrying the 7 iron from 136-143 there is no way you're swinging at 89 unless those shots are all misses. At 89 your carry should be at least 165.

>

> I don't know how good your Snake Eyes club heads are but those MMC heads are not all that forgiving,,,,,,,,,,,,

>

> Good luck.

 

 

I believe the biggest issue with the swing speed discrepancy is the launch monitor and using test clubs without the dots on the face. I’ve tested a few clubs with the white dots on the face and the swing speed is much closer and typically faster. I do see an easy 5-10 mph drop in swing speed between using the launch monitor without the dots vs when the dots are on the face. As an added note, the efficiency or smash factor is a far smaller number when the dots are on the face. With the dots on the face I believe my efficiency or smash factor is averaging 1.15, where without the dots the smash factor is always 1.36. I’m fairly confident that I’m no where close to a 1.36 smash factor even with my MP-5s. That efficiency definitely plays a role because with the faster club head speed and lower smash I still see roughly the same ball speed that I see without the white dots, and subsequently the same distance. So there’s no doubt I’m not making the best contact, and if I was, I would easily see 160 plus yards with a 7i.

[Stuart_G]

> @jbhawx said:

> I believe the biggest issue with the swing speed discrepancy is the launch monitor and using test clubs without the dots on the face. I’ve tested a few clubs with the white dots on the face and the swing speed is much closer and typically faster. I do see an easy 5-10 mph drop in swing speed between using the launch monitor without the dots vs when the dots are on the face. As an added note, the efficiency or smash factor is a far smaller number when the dots are on the face. With the dots on the face I believe my efficiency or smash factor is averaging 1.15, where without the dots the smash factor is always 1.36. I’m fairly confident that I’m no where close to a 1.36 smash factor even with my MP-5s. That efficiency definitely plays a role because with the faster club head speed and lower smash I still see roughly the same ball speed that I see without the white dots, and subsequently the same distance. So there’s no doubt I’m not making the best contact, and if I was, I would easily see 160 plus yards with a 7i.

 

With irons - the smash factor is as much about the dynamic loft you deliver as it is the quality of the contact. So dont' necessarily assume a lower smash factor means impact is worse. All it could mean is that you just deloft the club a bit more than the averages used when it's not actually measuring the swing speed (no dots). If you just want to look at the impact quality (when no dots) just use some foot powder spray or impact tape - do not use the smash factor to judge it with the irons.

[nsxguy]

> @jbhawx said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > I don't understand.

> >

> > You're using DGS300 now and a fitter recommends said shaft but you want lighter. May I ask why ?

> >

> > Just my opinion/results but the DGS300 easily had the best dispersion of all the steel shafts I tried at a "loss" of about 2 yards from most of the other shafts. Do you have some physical issue ?

> >

> > Also, as Dave mentioned you have numbers posted in the OP with a SS of 72 and a max SS of 89. Something is VERY wrong there. My SS is right around 77 or so and I carry a 32* 7 iron about 152 with the DGS300s. If you're carrying the 7 iron from 136-143 there is no way you're swinging at 89 unless those shots are all misses. At 89 your carry should be at least 165.

> >

> > I don't know how good your Snake Eyes club heads are but those MMC heads are not all that forgiving,,,,,,,,,,,,

> >

> > Good luck.

>

>

> I believe the biggest issue with the swing speed discrepancy is the launch monitor and using test clubs without the dots on the face. I’ve tested a few clubs with the white dots on the face and the swing speed is much closer and typically faster. I do see an easy 5-10 mph drop in swing speed between using the launch monitor without the dots vs when the dots are on the face. As an added note, the efficiency or smash factor is a far smaller number when the dots are on the face. With the dots on the face I believe my efficiency or smash factor is averaging 1.15, where without the dots the smash factor is always 1.36. I’m fairly confident that I’m no where close to a 1.36 smash factor even with my MP-5s. That efficiency definitely plays a role because with the faster club head speed and lower smash I still see roughly the same ball speed that I see without the white dots, and subsequently the same distance. So there’s no doubt I’m not making the best contact, and if I was, I would easily see 160 plus yards with a 7i.

 

Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will come along and explain the dots.

 

I've hit "dotted" irons and irons sans dots in the same LM. Virtually zero difference. Dave suggested the dots are to measure head speed (more accurately ?). There is NO WAY they can register 5-10 mph difference without the difference being you. If that was accurate and you're swinging the same, one or the other method is useless.

 

LMs are different though. Was all this on the same (type) LM ? Certain LMs set the smash factor at a fixed number; don't ask me why. In the store I frequent, with about a dozen LMs, NONE of them even show SF any more. When I did see the SF # it was always 1.47 (presumably set for the driver). I've hit 100s of drivers into the same LM and the SF was ALWAYS 1.47. Obviously I ignored the SF.

 

And besides, the SF is simply your ball speed divided by your swing speed so if the SS and BS are accurate, who really cares about SF ? That said, if your ball striking is "all over the place" and you're not sure how well you struck it the SF can give you instant feedback on that particular situation (if it works that is LOL)

 

Now if the SS is being measured accurately there is now way, IMO, on a full swing you can be anywhere near 10 mph different. Ball speed ? Sure. That depends on quality of impact, not (totally) SS.

 

It doesn't sound like you're a good ball striker. You need to find the center of the face more often. Lessons (although there in Okinawa,,,,,,,,, ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ )

 

 

 

[DaveMac]

Foresight launch monitors with head measuring capabilities, use the dots for reference to track the head movement into impact. This tracking data, is used to extrapolate all impact data (club head speed, path, AoA. etc) it is also used to extrapolate strike location.

Foresight launch monitors without head tracking (the basic GC2) just use a fixed smash factor ratio (one for irons, a higher one for woods), back calculating the club head speed from the ‘measured’ ball speed.

[Tommyj]

Dots/no dots, swing efficiency/smash factor, type of launch monitor - who cares? OP has confirmed that he carries a 7 iron 134-143, plays MP5's with DG S300 shafts and has issues with the ball flying too low and not carrying far enough. He obviously doesn't have the club head speed to play a blade or even something like the MMC, especially not with the types of shafts he's been testing. Forget about liking the look of a compact iron head, get yourself a GI head, something like a G410 or similar, match it with a lightweight shaft with a lower kick point (like a 950GH) and start seeing the results you are looking for.

[DaveMac]

Just to say nsxguy asked

 

>Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will come along and explain the dots.

 

I was simply trying to answer his question.

[jbhawx]

> @Tommyj said:

> Dots/no dots, swing efficiency/smash factor, type of launch monitor - who cares? OP has confirmed that he carries a 7 iron 134-143, plays MP5's with DG S300 shafts and has issues with the ball flying too low and not carrying far enough. He obviously doesn't have the club head speed to play a blade or even something like the MMC, especially not with the types of shafts he's been testing. Forget about liking the look of a compact iron head, get yourself a GI head, something like a G410 or similar, match it with a lightweight shaft with a lower kick point (like a 950GH) and start seeing the results you are looking for.

 

I apologize I may have mislead you on the carry distance with my MP-5s. The 134-143 is my typical total distance on the course with my 7i. This is based on Game golf data. Sorry for misleading that as carry, I meant total distance.

[jbhawx]

> @nsxguy said:

> I've hit "dotted" irons and irons sans dots in the same LM. Virtually zero difference. Dave suggested the dots are to measure head speed (more accurately ?). There is NO WAY they can register 5-10 mph difference without the difference being you. If that was accurate and you're swinging the same, one or the other method is useless.

>

> LMs are different though. Was all this on the same (type) LM ? Certain LMs set the smash factor at a fixed number; don't ask me why. In the store I frequent, with about a dozen LMs, NONE of them even show SF any more. When I did see the SF # it was always 1.47 (presumably set for the driver). I've hit 100s of drivers into the same LM and the SF was ALWAYS 1.47. Obviously I ignored the SF.

>

> And besides, the SF is simply your ball speed divided by your swing speed so if the SS and BS are accurate, who really cares about SF ? That said, if your ball striking is "all over the place" and you're not sure how well you struck it the SF can give you instant feedback on that particular situation (if it works that is LOL)

>

> Now if the SS is being measured accurately there is now way, IMO, on a full swing you can be anywhere near 10 mph different. Ball speed ? Sure. That depends on quality of impact, not (totally) SS.

>

> It doesn't sound like you're a good ball striker. You need to find the center of the face more often. Lessons (although there in Okinawa,,,,,,,,, ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ )

>

 

I completely understand what you are getting at. However; there is a difference when factoring in a SF of 1.36 and a much lower SF. I agree, definitely not as efficient of a ball striker, and that is where the 5-10 mph difference is with SS between using clubs with the dots and no dots. To help illustrate this, here are the raw numbers from going to the golf shop the other day. All the shafts are the same 950GH s, but different heads. The MMC and Tour B-CB were the only club heads that didn’t have the white dots. You’ll see easily, how the SS alone is all that differs. I’ll even include the average SF as well.

 

Club, SS, BS, SF, Carry, Total

MMC, 77.5, 105, 1.36, 144, 155

Tour B-CB, 75.5, 102, 1.36, 140, 151

Tour B X-CB, 82, 102, 1.25, 141, 155

(Yes, the X-CB is the 2019 version of the iron. I’ve also hit the combo set as well)

Z585, 86, 104, 1.21, 144, 159

Z785, 86, 101, 1.17, 138, 152

 

One last note, I checked the lofts of the clubs and they are all at 32* except the Z585, which is at 31*.

 

So SF has more to do with BS on off center hits, and more “forgiving clubs” retain a higher SF on off center hits. Hence why the Z585, the most forgiving in that group, has a higher SF than the Z785 while having the same SS. I mean really it comes down to math. My BS is within 5 mph, and that can easily be attributed to fatigue. However; all these clubs (except the Tour B-CB) were hit in one session, so to see a drop of 5 mph instantly when going from clubs with a white dots, to a club without a white dots, speaks for itself (especially considering the BS went up). It is easy math, when all the other numbers in ball speed, carry, and total distance are relatively the same, and a drop in SS that clearly the 1.36 SF is way off and not accurate to what my actual SS is.

 

Either way, I have no doubt that my SF with my MP-5 with a DGS300 is lower than even the Z785, which means easily explains why shots are coming up short. I can either get better at hitting the ball better, or get a better more forgiving club while also hitting the ball better :D. On the course, I have no trouble hitting straight shots with my current irons, so the issue of wild slices, pushes, pulls, hooks, etc is not the problem. The main issue is with the higher 4 and 5 iron. However; with the 8 - PW I have no distance or accuracy issues at all. I’m just not hitting the 6 and 7 as efficiently as I need to and the 4 and 5 are definitely hit or miss. I totally agree a more forgiving club head would be far better.

 

I still have to plot the point from the 950GH and I will post those once I do. I also tested the MMC head with 2* upright with the 120s, 1050GH, and the 950GH to draw further comparisons on the lie issue brought up earlier.

 

For those wondering, the new 2019 x-cb and the combo set from Bridgestone feel amazing. They feel slightly softer than an MMC and the Z785 feels right between the two. The Z585 feels almost effortless at impact, not saying softer, but I can tell a difference in overall design.

 

Finally, I am enjoying the conversation of this thread, so I greatly appreciate the conversation and back and forth dialogue. I’m learning a lot through this process. Thank you all.

 

[nsxguy]

> @DaveMac said:

> Foresight launch monitors with head measuring capabilities, use the dots for reference to track the head movement into impact. This tracking data, is used to extrapolate all impact data (club head speed, path, AoA. etc) it is also used to extrapolate strike location.

> Foresight launch monitors without head tracking (the basic GC2) just use a fixed smash factor ratio (one for irons, a higher one for woods), back calculating the club head speed from the ‘measured’ ball speed.

 

Thanks. That sounds very logical to me and about what I thought the dots were used for.

 

I'll probably be answering jb before you see this to correct me (if necessary) but the way I see it, properly(?) done, SF should be a simple calculation of 2 figures the LM can calculate; SS and BS. Is that not correct ?

 

IF SF is "set" at 1.47 (driver) and say, 1.36 (irons), that says to me that

 

a) the LM is giving one a "best guess"

 

and

 

b) the LM either obtains BS and does the calculation to derive SS from the BS & SF OR the LM obtains SS and calculates the BS from the SS & SF. That sound about right ?

 

 

 

[Golfrnut]

> @nsxguy said:

> > @DaveMac said:

> > Foresight launch monitors with head measuring capabilities, use the dots for reference to track the head movement into impact. This tracking data, is used to extrapolate all impact data (club head speed, path, AoA. etc) it is also used to extrapolate strike location.

> > Foresight launch monitors without head tracking (the basic GC2) just use a fixed smash factor ratio (one for irons, a higher one for woods), back calculating the club head speed from the ‘measured’ ball speed.

>

> Thanks. That sounds very logical to me and about what I thought the dots were used for.

>

> I'll probably be answering jb before you see this to correct me (if necessary) but the way I see it, properly(?) done, SF should be a simple calculation of 2 figures the LM can calculate; SS and BS. Is that not correct ?

>

> IF SF is "set" at 1.47 (driver) and say, 1.36 (irons), that says to me that

>

> a) the LM is giving one a "best guess"

>

> and

>

> b) the LM either obtains BS and does the calculation to derive SS from the BS & SF OR the LM obtains SS and calculates the BS from the SS & SF. That sound about right ?

>

>

>

 

Estimates SS by measuring BS

[nsxguy]

> @jbhawx said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > I've hit "dotted" irons and irons sans dots in the same LM. Virtually zero difference. Dave suggested the dots are to measure head speed (more accurately ?). There is NO WAY they can register 5-10 mph difference without the difference being you. If that was accurate and you're swinging the same, one or the other method is useless.

> >

> > LMs are different though. Was all this on the same (type) LM ? Certain LMs set the smash factor at a fixed number; don't ask me why. In the store I frequent, with about a dozen LMs, NONE of them even show SF any more. When I did see the SF # it was always 1.47 (presumably set for the driver). I've hit 100s of drivers into the same LM and the SF was ALWAYS 1.47. Obviously I ignored the SF.

> >

> > And besides, the SF is simply your ball speed divided by your swing speed so if the SS and BS are accurate, who really cares about SF ? That said, if your ball striking is "all over the place" and you're not sure how well you struck it the SF can give you instant feedback on that particular situation (if it works that is LOL)

> >

> > Now if the SS is being measured accurately there is now way, IMO, on a full swing you can be anywhere near 10 mph different. Ball speed ? Sure. That depends on quality of impact, not (totally) SS.

> >

> > It doesn't sound like you're a good ball striker. You need to find the center of the face more often. Lessons (although there in Okinawa,,,,,,,,, ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯ )

> >

>

> I completely understand what you are getting at. However; there is a difference when factoring in a SF of 1.36 and a much lower SF. I agree, definitely not as efficient of a ball striker, and that is where the 5-10 mph difference is with SS between using clubs with the dots and no dots. To help illustrate this, here are the raw numbers from going to the golf shop the other day. All the shafts are the same 950GH s, but different heads. The MMC and Tour B-CB were the only club heads that didn’t have the white dots. You’ll see easily, how the SS alone is all that differs. I’ll even include the average SF as well.

>

> Club, SS, BS, SF, Carry, Total

> MMC, 77.5, 105, 1.36, 144, 155

> Tour B-CB, 75.5, 102, 1.36, 140, 151

> Tour B X-CB, 82, 102, 1.25, 141, 155

> (Yes, the X-CB is the 2019 version of the iron. I’ve also hit the combo set as well)

> Z585, 86, 104, 1.21, 144, 159

> Z785, 86, 101, 1.17, 138, 152

>

> One last note, I checked the lofts of the clubs and they are all at 32* except the Z585, which is at 31*.

>

> So SF has more to do with BS on off center hits, and more “forgiving clubs” retain a higher SF on off center hits. Hence why the Z585, the most forgiving in that group, has a higher SF than the Z785 while having the same SS. I mean really it comes down to math. My BS is within 5 mph, and that can easily be attributed to fatigue. However; all these clubs (except the Tour B-CB) were hit in one session, so to see a drop of 5 mph instantly when going from clubs with a white dots, to a club without a white dots, speaks for itself (especially considering the BS went up). It is easy math, when all the other numbers in ball speed, carry, and total distance are relatively the same, and a drop in SS that clearly the 1.36 SF is way off and not accurate to what my actual SS is.

>

> Either way, I have no doubt that my SF with my MP-5 with a DGS300 is lower than even the Z785, which means easily explains why shots are coming up short. I can either get better at hitting the ball better, or get a better more forgiving club while also hitting the ball better :D. On the course, I have no trouble hitting straight shots with my current irons, so the issue of wild slices, pushes, pulls, hooks, etc is not the problem. The main issue is with the higher 4 and 5 iron. However; with the 8 - PW I have no distance or accuracy issues at all. I’m just not hitting the 6 and 7 as efficiently as I need to and the 4 and 5 are definitely hit or miss. I totally agree a more forgiving club head would be far better.

>

> I still have to plot the point from the 950GH and I will post those once I do. I also tested the MMC head with 2* upright with the 120s, 1050GH, and the 950GH to draw further comparisons on the lie issue brought up earlier.

>

> For those wondering, the new 2019 x-cb and the combo set from Bridgestone feel amazing. They feel slightly softer than an MMC and the Z785 feels right between the two. The Z585 feels almost effortless at impact, not saying softer, but I can tell a difference in overall design.

>

> Finally, I am enjoying the conversation of this thread, so I greatly appreciate the conversation and back and forth dialogue. I’m learning a lot through this process. Thank you all.

>

 

OK, you'll probably read my previous post to Dave. We'll see what he says.

 

BUT, since you're listing a variety of Smash Factors it would seem that the LM you're using calculates BOTH SS and BS and then comes up with the SF.

 

What that says to ME is that the LM IS obtaining BOTH SS and BS from its cameras & devices.

 

Frankly, unless you're using reallllllly different swings I can't see any way your SS can vary over 10 mph assuming you were all warmed up when you started collecting the data. Even if you were using shafts weights from about 105 to 130 grams. I just can't see that much difference in (full) swing speed.

 

So until the SS issue is cleared up it's basically impossible to come to any reliable conclusions.

[Stuart_G]

> @nsxguy said:

> BUT, since you're listing a variety of Smash Factors it would seem that the LM you're using calculates BOTH SS and BS and then comes up with the SF.

>

> What that says to ME is that the LM IS obtaining BOTH SS and BS from its cameras & devices.

>

 

As others tried to explain, Foresight will show both club speed and smash factor even when it's not actually doing anything to measure the club head speed.

 

With dots, it's actually measuring club head speed so it and the smash factor are accurate.

 

Without dots, it's not measuring club head speed at all. It makes an assumption about the smash factor based on the selected club (1.36 in the op's case) and using that assumed smash factor to come up with and calculate the club head speed to display. So the both the club speed and smash are complete junk.

 

Which is exactly why there is a big difference - the assumed smash factor isn't even close to what is actually happening. Without the dots, both the club speed and smash should be thrown out and ignored. They don't mean anything.

 

Differences from the assumed smash factor could be from a few possible sources:

1) the wrong club was set in the software - e.g. - it thinks you're swinging a PW when really hitting a 7 iron. Not the case for the OP.

2) you deliver more dynamic loft than is typical for the selected club (which can be influenced by a lot of things - like shaft weight, flex, swing weight/head weight, grip size, etc..)

3) the quality of the face impact location.

 

I suspect in the OP's case it's a combination of both 2+3 - but some foot powder spray would be needed to confirm or get the actual delivered dynamic loft and impact location from the LM when dots are used.

 

[Tommyj]

> @DaveMac said:

> Just to say nsxguy asked

>

> >Hopefully someone more knowledgeable than I will come along and explain the dots.

>

> I was simply trying to answer his question.

 

My dots/no dots response wasn't directed as a criticism of your response, so sorry. It had more to do with the level of technical detail the OP is getting into.

[Kevinnz]

Off your topic but try some shafts from shimada, their constant weight model offers tighter dispersions over nippons without the weight of DGs300. Japanese has got alot of composite iron shafts too if you pocket is deep. Personally I would give seven dreamer a call ;)