Holy Grail found. Game improvement, zero offset, great company, great feel.

[grantc79]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > I think thats the whole point, I just took a look at my 8 iron which I'd guess is what that iron is there which I'm sure I don't have to tell you is going to have less offset than a 4 iron. There is a little more offset compared to that club but how close can you get to zero offset with a modern club with all the technology? Its the law of diminishing returns how bad do you wanna get rid of that last tiny bit of offset.

> > All I've wanted was a gigantic sweet spot, solid feeling club, as low offset as I can get because I don't wanna play blades.

>

>

> There's nothing about any tech added to an iron design that requires offset to be present. They add it, but I would argue it's not *necessary*. It's there to add a bit of trajectory, just as Karsten did with the Eye2. And, because people probably expect it now. There's even a portion of touring pros who don't like looking down at irons that don't have offset.

>

> If you really want something with no offset and some forgiveness, Maxfli Revolution irons from 1999. If you want something newer that fits that bill, Maltby TE Forged or PTM.

>

>

>

 

The Maltby TE will have more offset than these irons if you do the math. they are .10 offset consistent throughout the set which is 2.54 mm

 

My 4 iron has right at 2.54 mm and the pitching wedge from my set will have under 1 mm with it progressing through the set to that point.

 

If you do the math I don't think I can find less offset unless I took the Maltby's and bent them weaker. Only issue is they are traditionally lofted which means I'll lose quite a bit of distance with those. THe beauty of the Mizuno is I bend them weaker which brings them to a more traditional loft and get rid of a huge chunk of the offset.

[Mych]

The Mizzy hot metals have a similar offset to the Cobra Forged Tour and Cobra Forged One (my gamers). 2.0mm offset in 4i and 1.3mm in PW. Cobra calls them "players" irons, but they have a lot of GI forgiveness features like tungsten perimeter weighting and cavity back with TPU insert for feel.

https://www.cobragolf.com/king-forged-tour-iron-set

 

I recently took out one of my old sets of irons and couldn't believe how much offset I used to play with.

[revanant]

If it suits your eye, you like the feel, and you're hitting them well, then be happy/content and enjoy golfing with your new irons. : )

 

Unrelated, are those shafted with steelfibers? That texture looks familiar.

 

 

 

 

[AMLemus]

> @grantc79 said:

> 7 iron flies about 175-180 in the air today per gc quad. My spin went up from 5800 range to 6400 range.

> Club speed roughly 95 mph.

 

That's some solid length right there!

[2Down]

There were some you know. I had to look at them again. Powerful with the ugly they are.

Hurricane HTS 2.

 

> @JStang said:

> All irons have "some" offset.

 

 

[grantc79]

> @revanant said:

> If it suits your eye, you like the feel, and you're hitting them well, then be happy/content and enjoy golfing with your new irons. : )

>

> Unrelated, are those shafted with steelfibers? That texture looks familiar.

>

>

>

>

 

C Tapers

[grantc79]

> @AMLemus said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > 7 iron flies about 175-180 in the air today per gc quad. My spin went up from 5800 range to 6400 range.

> > Club speed roughly 95 mph.

>

> That's some solid length right there!

 

Thank ya been working on that lag lag lag.

[Ripper859]

Interested in doing something similar. How does the top line look in these?

[grantc79]

> @Ripper859 said:

> Interested in doing something similar. How does the top line look in these?

 

A little chunky but not horrible.

[OrangeGravy]

I just played with some old Wilson Pi5 irons. They have very little offset, aren't chunky, and are plenty forgiving. I was pleasantly surprised with how they played.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @grantc79 said:

> Do the math on that and compare it to other irons in the market.

>

> It has less offset than most musclebacks now

 

I feel cheated. The title said zero offset. What’s this nonsense concerning less offset?

[goheels11]

I weakened my p790’s for the same reason. Still hit them far enough.

[sdandrea]

Not sure why offset is considered so evil. I don't have much difficulty adjusting my grip/swing to compensate for irons with more or less offset, and I'm a high-functioning hacker with an 11 handicap. I hear guys saying that a few thousandths if an inch of offset turns an iron into a hook machine. I understand not liking the appearance, but I have trouble believing that offset renders a club unplayable .

[Tree Levino]

> @sdandrea said:

> Not sure why offset is considered so evil. I don't have much difficulty adjusting my grip/swing to compensate for irons with more or less offset, and I'm a high-functioning hacker with an 11 handicap. I hear guys saying that a few thousandths if an inch of offset turns an iron into a hook machine. I understand not liking the appearance, but I have trouble believing that offset renders a club unplayable .

 

I'm a guy with a slightly strong grip. I also swing in to out. I find that clubs with a lot of offset almost balance closed, so they do tend to hook for me because they feel awkward if you try to set up with it opened up a bit (my preferred). Even my iBlades have a bit more than I'd like. High offset was designed for the majority of the golf population which a) doesn't have enough swing speed to achieve optimal peak height and b) has a massive out to in path. It's all personal preference - I really dislike it. I can hit clubs that have it but I'd prefer low.

[sdandrea]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @sdandrea said:

> > Not sure why offset is considered so evil. I don't have much difficulty adjusting my grip/swing to compensate for irons with more or less offset, and I'm a high-functioning hacker with an 11 handicap. I hear guys saying that a few thousandths if an inch of offset turns an iron into a hook machine. I understand not liking the appearance, but I have trouble believing that offset renders a club unplayable .

>

> I'm a guy with a slightly strong grip. I also swing in to out. I find that clubs with a lot of offset almost balance closed, so they do tend to hook for me because they feel awkward if you try to set up with it opened up a bit (my preferred). Even my iBlades have a bit more than I'd like. High offset was designed for the majority of the golf population which a) doesn't have enough swing speed to achieve optimal peak height and b) has a massive out to in path. It's all personal preference - I really dislike it. I can hit clubs that have it but I'd prefer low.

 

Your last 2 comments make perfect sense. I get that. Maybe I've been seeing posters using hyperbole on the evils of offset. Not that long ago, there were players using PING Eye 2 and ZING irons on tour......talk about visible offset!

[grantc79]

> @sdandrea said:

> Not sure why offset is considered so evil. I don't have much difficulty adjusting my grip/swing to compensate for irons with more or less offset, and I'm a high-functioning hacker with an 11 handicap. I hear guys saying that a few thousandths if an inch of offset turns an iron into a hook machine. I understand not liking the appearance, but I have trouble believing that offset renders a club unplayable .

 

Its two parts, a swing thing and a confidence thing.

My fear is to hit the ball left, if I pick up a club and there is a lot of offset I immediately have that fear and will not be able to play my best golf with it.

The reason my fear is to hit it left is because I swing inside out by about 4 degrees so my stock shot is a push draw, my good miss is a slight block, my horrible miss is a snap hook.

 

The more offset I see the more I fear that snap hook because that face is already shut before I ever start.

[matchavez]

I think some of you talking about offset or no offset have the onset of something...

[erock9174]

I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

 

My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @erock9174 said:

> I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

>

> My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

 

Agreed.

 

Offset doesn’t cause snap hooks.

 

[ALIF]

> @erock9174 said:

> I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

>

> My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

 

I play G700 irons 4-7 and the amount of offset appears similar to my Eye 2’s. My i210’s are 7-UW with significantly less offset. I play both fine. I don’t hook the G700 more than the i210.

 

 

[grantc79]

> @matthewb said:

> > @erock9174 said:

> > I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

> >

> > My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

>

> Agreed.

>

> Offset doesn’t cause snap hooks.

>

 

No, but it certainly does make it a lot easier to hit it left, which is the same direction as a hook. If you are afraid its going left when standing over the ball thats a problem.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @matthewb said:

> > > @erock9174 said:

> > > I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

> > >

> > > My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

> >

> > Agreed.

> >

> > Offset doesn’t cause snap hooks.

> >

>

> No, but it certainly does make it a lot easier to hit it left, which is the same direction as a hook. If you are afraid its going left when standing over the ball thats a problem.

 

Offset doesn't "make it a lot easier to hit it left" (if you're right handed).

 

You may think it does and that's your choice. But it's not factual that the level of offset discussed in this thread would substantially increase the probability of hitting hooks.

[grantc79]

> @matthewb said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > > @matthewb said:

> > > > @erock9174 said:

> > > > I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

> > > >

> > > > My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

> > >

> > > Agreed.

> > >

> > > Offset doesn’t cause snap hooks.

> > >

> >

> > No, but it certainly does make it a lot easier to hit it left, which is the same direction as a hook. If you are afraid its going left when standing over the ball thats a problem.

>

> Offset doesn't "make it a lot easier to hit it left" (if you're right handed).

>

> You may think it does and that's your choice. But it's not factual that the level of offset discussed in this thread would substantially increase the probability of hitting hooks.

 

https://pluggedingolf.com/does-offset-matter-golf-myths-unplugged/

 

**The Results

Myth #1 – Offset promotes a draw

 

In our test group, 4 out of 5 testers saw more offset correlate to more draws. Those four players hit the most offset iron with a face-to-path that was, on average, two degrees more closed than the next closest iron. That’s a substantial difference. It can turn a small fade into a straight shot, a straight shot into a tight draw, and a draw into a hook.

 

We also looked at other effects of offset on accuracy and dispersion. Three of the testers hit their single most leftward shot with the most offset iron. Additionally, every tester saw their overall dispersion shift left with the most offset model.**

[grantc79]

> @matthewb said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > > @matthewb said:

> > > > @erock9174 said:

> > > > I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

> > > >

> > > > My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

> > >

> > > Agreed.

> > >

> > > Offset doesn’t cause snap hooks.

> > >

> >

> > No, but it certainly does make it a lot easier to hit it left, which is the same direction as a hook. If you are afraid its going left when standing over the ball thats a problem.

>

> Offset doesn't "make it a lot easier to hit it left" (if you're right handed).

>

> You may think it does and that's your choice. But it's not factual that the level of offset discussed in this thread would substantially increase the probability of hitting hooks.

 

Feel free to argue with Google as well.

 

If you simply google "what does offset do for golf clubs" there are dozens of articles that say helps shut the face, helps square the face, helps cure a slice, etc.

 

I don't need any help in any of those areas. In fact I need the opposite of that.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @matthewb said:

> > > @grantc79 said:

> > > > @matthewb said:

> > > > > @erock9174 said:

> > > > > I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

> > > > >

> > > > > My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

> > > >

> > > > Agreed.

> > > >

> > > > Offset doesn’t cause snap hooks.

> > > >

> > >

> > > No, but it certainly does make it a lot easier to hit it left, which is the same direction as a hook. If you are afraid its going left when standing over the ball thats a problem.

> >

> > Offset doesn't "make it a lot easier to hit it left" (if you're right handed).

> >

> > You may think it does and that's your choice. But it's not factual that the level of offset discussed in this thread would substantially increase the probability of hitting hooks.

>

> Feel free to argue with Google as well.

>

> If you simply google "what does offset do for golf clubs" there are dozens of articles that say helps shut the face, helps square the face, helps cure a slice, etc.

>

> I don't need any help in any of those areas. In fact I need the opposite of that.

 

You're asking the wrong question.

 

The question isn't whether offset can help close the face. It can. Especially with longer clubs like driver & fairway woods.

 

The question that is germane to this thread is what difference makes a difference? In other words, does the offset reduction that you achieved by bending these HM Pros actually cause a consistent notable difference in shots?

 

You don't have any empirical data. And if you did, it's probable that the difference seen in shots would be unremarkable.

[grantc79]

> @matthewb said:

 

>

> You're asking the wrong question.

>

> The question isn't whether offset can help close the face. It can. Especially with longer clubs like driver & fairway woods.

>

> The question that is germane to this thread is what difference makes a difference? In other words, does the offset reduction that you achieved by bending these HM Pros actually cause a consistent notable difference in shots?

>

> You don't have any empirical data. And if you did, it's probable that the difference seen in shots would be unremarkable.

 

There is empirical data in that link, go look at it.

You are saying you realize its there to help you close the face and hit the ball left. You recognize that. But you refuse to admit that there would be a difference in if the ball actually goes more left or not.

That an impressive amount of stupid you are displaying. World class.

**In our test group, 4 out of 5 testers saw more offset correlate to more draws. Those four players hit the most offset iron with a face-to-path that was, on average, two degrees more closed than the next closest iron. That’s a substantial difference. It can turn a small fade into a straight shot, a straight shot into a tight draw, and a draw into a hook.

 

We also looked at other effects of offset on accuracy and dispersion. Three of the testers hit their single most leftward shot with the most offset iron. Additionally, every tester saw their overall dispersion shift left with the most offset model.**

[gvogel]

> @matthewb said:

> > @grantc79 said:

> > > @matthewb said:

> > > > @grantc79 said:

> > > > > @matthewb said:

> > > > > > @erock9174 said:

> > > > > > I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

> > > > >

> > > > > Agreed.

> > > > >

> > > > > Offset doesn’t cause snap hooks.

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > No, but it certainly does make it a lot easier to hit it left, which is the same direction as a hook. If you are afraid its going left when standing over the ball thats a problem.

> > >

> > > Offset doesn't "make it a lot easier to hit it left" (if you're right handed).

> > >

> > > You may think it does and that's your choice. But it's not factual that the level of offset discussed in this thread would substantially increase the probability of hitting hooks.

> >

> > Feel free to argue with Google as well.

> >

> > If you simply google "what does offset do for golf clubs" there are dozens of articles that say helps shut the face, helps square the face, helps cure a slice, etc.

> >

> > I don't need any help in any of those areas. In fact I need the opposite of that.

>

> You're asking the wrong question.

>

> The question isn't whether offset can help close the face. It can. Especially with longer clubs like driver & fairway woods.

>

> The question that is germane to this thread is what difference makes a difference? In other words, does the offset reduction that you achieved by bending these HM Pros actually cause a consistent notable difference in shots?

>

> You don't have any empirical data. And if you did, it's probable that the difference seen in shots would be unremarkable.

 

Wait a minute. A player starts a thread by showing how he added loft to his irons to reduce the offset he saw at address. And he loves the look and really likes the way the irons are performing.

 

And you're telling him that the probable difference seen in shots should be unremarkable. Hey, who cares. It's working for HIM!

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @grantc79 said:

> > @matthewb said:

>

> >

> > You're asking the wrong question.

> >

> > The question isn't whether offset can help close the face. It can. Especially with longer clubs like driver & fairway woods.

> >

> > The question that is germane to this thread is what difference makes a difference? In other words, does the offset reduction that you achieved by bending these HM Pros actually cause a consistent notable difference in shots?

> >

> > You don't have any empirical data. And if you did, it's probable that the difference seen in shots would be unremarkable.

>

> There is empirical data in that link, go look at it.

> You are saying you realize its there to help you close the face and hit the ball left. You recognize that. But you refuse to admit that there would be a difference in if the ball actually goes more left or not.

> That an impressive amount of stupid you are displaying. World class.

> **In our test group, 4 out of 5 testers saw more offset correlate to more draws. Those four players hit the most offset iron with a face-to-path that was, on average, two degrees more closed than the next closest iron. That’s a substantial difference. It can turn a small fade into a straight shot, a straight shot into a tight draw, and a draw into a hook.

>

> We also looked at other effects of offset on accuracy and dispersion. Three of the testers hit their single most leftward shot with the most offset iron. Additionally, every tester saw their overall dispersion shift left with the most offset model.**

 

Again, that's not the question. The question is whether or not the offset change that you made actually makes a difference. There wasn't much offset to begin with so the probability of it making a noticeable difference is quite low to non-existent.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @gvogel said:

> > @matthewb said:

> > > @grantc79 said:

> > > > @matthewb said:

> > > > > @grantc79 said:

> > > > > > @matthewb said:

> > > > > > > @erock9174 said:

> > > > > > > I thought offset was used for added launch. I never associated it with being hook prone.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > My g700 irons have a ton of offset and they draw much less than my Cleveland 588 Altitude irons that have minimal offset but can get really hooky

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Agreed.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Offset doesn’t cause snap hooks.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > No, but it certainly does make it a lot easier to hit it left, which is the same direction as a hook. If you are afraid its going left when standing over the ball thats a problem.

> > > >

> > > > Offset doesn't "make it a lot easier to hit it left" (if you're right handed).

> > > >

> > > > You may think it does and that's your choice. But it's not factual that the level of offset discussed in this thread would substantially increase the probability of hitting hooks.

> > >

> > > Feel free to argue with Google as well.

> > >

> > > If you simply google "what does offset do for golf clubs" there are dozens of articles that say helps shut the face, helps square the face, helps cure a slice, etc.

> > >

> > > I don't need any help in any of those areas. In fact I need the opposite of that.

> >

> > You're asking the wrong question.

> >

> > The question isn't whether offset can help close the face. It can. Especially with longer clubs like driver & fairway woods.

> >

> > The question that is germane to this thread is what difference makes a difference? In other words, does the offset reduction that you achieved by bending these HM Pros actually cause a consistent notable difference in shots?

> >

> > You don't have any empirical data. And if you did, it's probable that the difference seen in shots would be unremarkable.

>

> Wait a minute. A player starts a thread by showing how he added loft to his irons to reduce the offset he saw at address. And he loves the look and really likes the way the irons are performing.

>

> And you're telling him that the probable difference seen in shots should be unremarkable. Hey, who cares. It's working for HIM!

 

Correct. It's great that he likes it. That's not debatable.

 

But he's also making a claim that the offset change made a big difference in his shots. That's highly debatable.

[grantc79]

Did you bother to read the study above? Or any other the other similar stories on Google for you?

 

You seem to be the type to believe gravity is highly debatable while firmly planted to the earth