"Carts due in by 8pm!"

[om18v]

> @BiggErn said:

> > @om18v said:

> > > @BiggErn said:

> > > > @om18v said:

> > > > Just a few random thoughts I had while reading this thread.

> > > > I play a lot of twilight rounds for less money than normal hours. 9 holes is great, sometimes maybe 14 or more. For me it just seems a common courtesy to return at a reasonable time. I don't want to be that guy that everyone is waiting for. The service industry argument can have some validity I guess based on the individuals sense of self importance. I would be curious to ask why a golf course is to be treated differently than any other business that has stated hours? On the other hand, if, and the big if is, when you pay full rate for a round should you have expectations of playing a full round. Yeah, I suppose that is fair and reasonable. But if the course is charging full rate, they should be expected to have a cut off for last tee time of the day. A time would be certainly set by the pro not the player. Are there courses that charge full rate for late tee time? I don't know. Not the tracks I play at least. This thread is similar to the fast/slow round threads. There will be no agreement that pleases everyone.

> > >

> > > When you get a discount on balls, clubs, apparel, or whatever do you expect and are willing to accept lesser quality?

> >

> > In the past 6 months I purchased on sale:

> > 1. balls, previous version

> > 2. clubs, previous release

> > 3. shirts, previous season style

> > Not lesser quality but also not the same. They were all discounted for a reason. Kind of like twilight golf.

>

> Yes because they want your money and will settle for less rather than noting.

 

And I don't have an issue with that.

[sdandrea]

> @Roody said:

> Why should the pro shop staff have to wait around all evening for you to bring the cart in whenever you please?

 

I don't know......customer service, maybe? It takes minimal and cheap staff to put carts away. I used to do it for min wage as a teen.

[Lloyd_Christmas29]

I would not be a fan of any policy like this but as long as they communicate this clearly before hand, a business can close whenever they want. That being said, every course I have worked at will let golfers stay out as long as they want, except in a case where a group is still out there say an hour past sunset. I did work at one course that enforced all golfers be off at sunset. The course was located right on the ocean though and had steep cliffs on the edge of some holes so it was a safety issue having carts out in the dark. Mandating people off the course way before dark doesn't seem like a policy that would keep people coming back to your course however.

[dlygrisse]

> @Murphy76 said:

> > @golfgirlrobin said:

> > > @Murphy76 said:

> > > > @a_crook said:

> > > > > @Roody said:

> > > > > Why should the pro shop staff have to wait around all evening for you to bring the cart in whenever you please?

> > > > Uh, because it's your job and you're in a service industry?

> > > > That's part of the job. Golfers want to play as long as they can, and should be able to. Grow the game.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > That sort of response makes me see red.

> > >

> > > Being in the 'service industry' does not grant people the right to treat you poorly. Regardless of the club policy/rules issue, just because you pay for something does not grant you the right to abuse the staff. While 'abuse' is a strong word, taking someone else's time because of your own selfishness and disregard for rules is unacceptable. They have lives and schedules like anyone else.

> > >

> > > That type of thinking is behind people abusing waiters because "its' their job to take abuse". Do you show up at a restaurant and expect service 10 minutes before the kitchen closes?

> > >

> > > I am not disputing whether the club's rule is right or wrong. I dispute the attitude that it is ok to abuse someone else's time just because they are in the 'service industry'.

> >

> > No one said anything about abusing anyone. No one is advocating treating anyone poorly. The point was that management ought to understand that summertime means late play and schedule workers accordingly. That’s it.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Again, I wasn't debating the courses' policy or practices. That wasn't my issue.

>

> My beef was with the idea that "they should suck it up because they work in the "service industry", and that they should just donate their time and lives to "Grow the Game".

 

It’s the job you sign up for, don’t like it, work in a bank. Try working in a restaurant, the cart barn guys might be coming in for a drink after they put the carts up. Guess what, it’s fhe bartenders job to serve them, sometimes till 2:00 am.

 

But yes, it’s the service industry, it’s about serving others for a paycheck.

 

 

[Big Ben]

Im surprised peeps feel there’s entitlement to want to play until dusk. I’m not talking about rolling in at 9:10pm. But play until the bugs come out then boogie in, that’s the ultimate joy of summer golf! When I play twilight golf first thing I do is tell the fellas I’m out there until the crow flys but I PROMISE to wrap it up when you absolutely need me in. I will offer a tip to the cart fellas as well for being cool about it.

[North Butte]

I often marvel on this forum how there are entire other worlds of "golf" that I simply never experience in my little walking-golfer bubble. It would never have even occurred to me that there are people for whom having to have a cart returned at 8pm means they literally can not play golf.

 

Now you cart-riders know how I feel. The majority of courses nowadays at which I'm never welcome because they never allow walkers. If I'm not willing to plop my a** in a cart, I literally can not play golf at those places.

[Spooky67]

My course has them due in by 8:30. I think that’s fair as they have to have a shift end for employees.?

[jli2636]

@"Big Ben" said:

> Im surprised peeps feel there’s entitlement to want to play until dusk. I’m not talking about rolling in at 9:10pm. But play until the bugs come out then boogie in, that’s the ultimate joy of summer golf! When I play twilight golf first thing I do is tell the fellas I’m out there until the crow flys but I PROMISE to wrap it up when you absolutely need me in. I will offer a tip to the cart fellas as well for being cool about it.

 

I think this is key here. Talking about dusk vs dark vs plenty of daylight left. So around here it get pretty hard to see a golf ball around call it 8:45. I don’t think it is unreasonable to expect carts in by call it 8:15 or 8:30. That provides, in my opinion, ample time to play and get the cart back safely. The way you handle it in your scenario would be fine. It’s the guys that throw a s*** fit about it that cause the problem. I’m guessing you also normally clean out your cart and are generally respectful of the course employees. Makes a huge difference when it’s you out there late vs the “bachelor party” that went out after work on a Friday night with 3 coolers fully loaded. The latter is the situation that draws ire from course workers, again just my opinion of course.

 

I think what most of the “course defenders” are arguing is guys staying out way past darkness where you would need headlights to come in even remotely safely. It could also be in the course’s insurance policy that the carts need to be in by a certain time for liability reasons. I know thats likely farther down the list but it’s a possibility. Just my 2 cents.

[kg92lefty]

Don't like it? Play somewhere else. A business can close whenever they want. People complaining about a course's rates or policies are hilarious. Are they putting a gun to your head making you pay to play there???

If I don't like a rate or policy I play at a different time or course. Easy.

Are you going to throw a fit that a restaurant closes at a certain time? or closes the kitchen at 8 but the bar at 9? How dare the movie theater have the last showing at 11.

World doesn't revolve around you.

[Loki]

All this talk about customer service reminds me of this story: I played at a course that currently hosts a REALLY RECENT Champions tour event, but this was years ago. On a Saturday in the middle of summer, the first tee time was 7am. The driving range was closed, again, on a Saturday morning. After all, they just cleaned it up.

Last September, in Ireland well known course, we were the first group off at 8am, we got there a little before 7:30. Think we woke them up.

[Murphy76]

Cval-

 

Again, read my point.

 

I was commenting on unfair abuse of workers in the service industry, that you seem to be displaying. "If you don't like the job, quit" summarizes what I was pointing towards. Why should someone have to quit their *skilled* profession because management allows them to be abused for tips. Is that your definition of their jobs?

 

FOR HIRE:

 

SOMEONE TO ACCEPT

 

> @dlygrisse said:

> > @Murphy76 said:

> > > @golfgirlrobin said:

> > > > @Murphy76 said:

> > > > > @a_crook said:

> > > > > > @Roody said:

> > > > > > Why should the pro shop staff have to wait around all evening for you to bring the cart in whenever you please?

> > > > > Uh, because it's your job and you're in a service industry?

> > > > > That's part of the job. Golfers want to play as long as they can, and should be able to. Grow the game.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > That sort of response makes me see red.

> > > >

> > > > Being in the 'service industry' does not grant people the right to treat you poorly. Regardless of the club policy/rules issue, just because you pay for something does not grant you the right to abuse the staff. While 'abuse' is a strong word, taking someone else's time because of your own selfishness and disregard for rules is unacceptable. They have lives and schedules like anyone else.

> > > >

> > > > That type of thinking is behind people abusing waiters because "its' their job to take abuse". Do you show up at a restaurant and expect service 10 minutes before the kitchen closes?

> > > >

> > > > I am not disputing whether the club's rule is right or wrong. I dispute the attitude that it is ok to abuse someone else's time just because they are in the 'service industry'.

> > >

> > > No one said anything about abusing anyone. No one is advocating treating anyone poorly. The point was that management ought to understand that summertime means late play and schedule workers accordingly. That’s it.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Again, I wasn't debating the courses' policy or practices. That wasn't my issue.

> >

> > My beef was with the idea that "they should suck it up because they work in the "service industry", and that they should just donate their time and lives to "Grow the Game".

>

> It’s the job you sign up for, don’t like it, work in a bank. Try working in a restaurant, the cart barn guys might be coming in for a drink after they put the carts up. Guess what, it’s fhe bartenders job to serve them, sometimes till 2:00 am.

>

> But yes, it’s the service industry, it’s about serving others for a paycheck.

>

>

 

Again, I am not debating club practices or employee responsibilities.

 

I am condemning the attitude that people in the service industry are somehow beneath them. They are performing a job, and should be treated with thought and respect. I loathe the attitude of "If they are serving me, then therefore they are beneath me".

 

That was my main point, apparently not made clear. My bad.

 

[dlygrisse]

> @Murphy76 said:

> Cval-

>

> Again, read my point.

>

> I was commenting on unfair abuse of workers in the service industry, that you seem to be displaying. "If you don't like the job, quit" summarizes what I was pointing towards. Why should someone have to quit their *skilled* profession because management allows them to be abused for tips. Is that your definition of their jobs?

>

> FOR HIRE:

>

> SOMEONE TO ACCEPT

>

> > @dlygrisse said:

> > > @Murphy76 said:

> > > > @golfgirlrobin said:

> > > > > @Murphy76 said:

> > > > > > @a_crook said:

> > > > > > > @Roody said:

> > > > > > > Why should the pro shop staff have to wait around all evening for you to bring the cart in whenever you please?

> > > > > > Uh, because it's your job and you're in a service industry?

> > > > > > That's part of the job. Golfers want to play as long as they can, and should be able to. Grow the game.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > That sort of response makes me see red.

> > > > >

> > > > > Being in the 'service industry' does not grant people the right to treat you poorly. Regardless of the club policy/rules issue, just because you pay for something does not grant you the right to abuse the staff. While 'abuse' is a strong word, taking someone else's time because of your own selfishness and disregard for rules is unacceptable. They have lives and schedules like anyone else.

> > > > >

> > > > > That type of thinking is behind people abusing waiters because "its' their job to take abuse". Do you show up at a restaurant and expect service 10 minutes before the kitchen closes?

> > > > >

> > > > > I am not disputing whether the club's rule is right or wrong. I dispute the attitude that it is ok to abuse someone else's time just because they are in the 'service industry'.

> > > >

> > > > No one said anything about abusing anyone. No one is advocating treating anyone poorly. The point was that management ought to understand that summertime means late play and schedule workers accordingly. That’s it.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Again, I wasn't debating the courses' policy or practices. That wasn't my issue.

> > >

> > > My beef was with the idea that "they should suck it up because they work in the "service industry", and that they should just donate their time and lives to "Grow the Game".

> >

> > It’s the job you sign up for, don’t like it, work in a bank. Try working in a restaurant, the cart barn guys might be coming in for a drink after they put the carts up. Guess what, it’s fhe bartenders job to serve them, sometimes till 2:00 am.

> >

> > But yes, it’s the service industry, it’s about serving others for a paycheck.

> >

> >

>

> Again, I am not debating club practices or employee responsibilities.

>

> I am condemning the attitude that people in the service industry are somehow beneath them. They are performing a job, and should be treated with thought and respect. I loathe the attitude of "If they are serving me, then therefore they are beneath me".

>

> That was my main point, apparently not made clear. My bad.

>

 

My point is, this isn't "unfair abuse" not even close, this is just asking someone to do the job you hired them to do. These are great jobs for many people, especially young kids who need summer jobs etc. This is nothing more than youu trying to be a SJW.

 

 

[CaseyC]

> @dlygrisse said:

 

> My point is, this isn't "unfair abuse" not even close, this is just asking someone to do the job you hired them to do. ...

>

 

The job they were hired to do has start times, and ending times. They were not hired to work outside those times

[MaineMariner]

This thread is officially bananas. The fact that a business serves customers does not mean that it can't set basic rules like opening and closing times. How asinine.

[DZClark]

Man where was this conversation 3 years ago when I really needed it.

See, I have a little girl who loves to play golf. Problem was, she was too young to be at the course during the heavy use, because I didn't want her to get cause a distraction or to get hit. However, she absolutely loved going to the golf course. After the first time, I realized I was keeping the cart out until nearly dark, since we didn't come out until way after dark. Our course, the pro shop, the cart guys, ever said a word and were as nice to us as possible as we pulled into the cart barn. I realized I had kept someone from getting home because I wanted to play later in the evening when it was cooler and less crowded.

 

Went the next day, bought our very own golf cart (which, has headlights which are great for finding that last tee shot) and now can play until its as late as we want. It never occurred to me that I could have continued being a selfish jerk and keeping people out or to the club/cart guys to treat me like a jerk. It was almost like they were doing the job they were paid for and I was being selfless in not expecting them to cater to me.

 

Seems we need more understanding and less "about me" in our society. If we can't have that as golfers, what hope does the rest of the world have?

[North Butte]

You could have done your little girl an even bigger life-long favor by introducing her to golf as a walking game.

[DZClark]

> @"North Butte" said:

> You could have done your little girl an even bigger life-long favor by introducing her to golf as a walking game.

 

That was 3 weeks ago when she got her first push cart...hot but she loves walking.

[North Butte]

> @DZClark said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > You could have done your little girl an even bigger life-long favor by introducing her to golf as a walking game.

>

> That was 3 weeks ago when she got her first push cart...hot but she loves walking.

 

Now that's what I'm talking about!

 

I wish someone had introduced me to golf (walking) at an early age. Half a lifetime of it has done me a world of good but never having gotten out of shape to start with would have been even better.

[larrybud]

> @kg92lefty said:

> Don't like it? Play somewhere else. A business can close whenever they want. People complaining about a course's rates or policies are hilarious. Are they putting a gun to your head making you pay to play there???

> If I don't like a rate or policy I play at a different time or course. Easy.

> Are you going to throw a fit that a restaurant closes at a certain time? or closes the kitchen at 8 but the bar at 9? How dare the movie theater have the last showing at 11.

> World doesn't revolve around you.

 

We do play somewhere else. Here in MI right now you can play til 9:30. If some course tells me I have to be off by 8, see ya, enjoy your diminished revenue. We are discussing how stupid of a policy it is.

[North Butte]

So for a few weeks a year they could probably sell a couple or three or four extra cart rentals most days by keeping their staff there an extra ninety minutes every day.

 

That's so far down in the noise of their profit/loss that it's hard to justify use of the word "stupid", don't you think? From their perspective, not yours I mean.

[bigred90gt]

> @"North Butte" said:

> You could have done your little girl an even bigger life-long favor by introducing her to golf as a walking game.

Just curious - where do you live?

 

I love walking a golf course, but around here (southeast Texas coast), the heat can be downright oppressive. During the winter months, or spring when it's still a tolerable temperature, I'll gladly walk when I can convince the others in my group to do so as well. Mid summer when it's north of 100 degrees with so much humidity the air feels wet and hot, not so much.

 

[North Butte]

I'm also in the Sweet Sunny South !

 

It does get unbearable at times in July and August, especially August. There was one August a few years back when I did not play a single round for the whole month. And most years instead of the 10-12 rounds I play in a normal month I might play 4-5 in the whole of August.

 

But it's unusual to have extended hot-and-humid spells that last longer than a couple weeks without any sort of break at all. Most summers there are a couple days here and there which are merely miserable and not life-threatening ;-)

 

One August I played a 36-hole day at the Ocean Course at Kiawah. That was probably in retrospect pushing my luck. Even with caddies to help out and with pounding down the hydration I was pretty used-up feeling for a couple days after that adventure.

[umassgolfer]

Man. I feel like the site just LIVES for crucifying any OP for any take ever.

 

I worked as a cart/pro shop attendant at a county course. I loved late nights. I got an extra couple bucks to watch TV. My own personal experience and thoughts:

 

* Most of my friends and I work in a major metropolitan area. And have a family/wife/household to take care of. As great as it would be to play morning or early afternoon rounds, the reality is that midweek, even with a "half day" the earliest I am getting to the course is 3:30, and hope I can get out quickly. And weekends I can try to plan golf but as often as not, I'll finish up my housework/other obligations and say "Let's see how many holes I can get in".

* If I take a cart for a twilight round it is usually to be sure I finish as many holes as I can. Most courses around me charge a greens fee and a cart fee. Say, $60 greens fee and $20 cart for 18 holes. If you artificially or arbitrarily limit the time I have to play, I hope the cart rate is reflective of that as well as the green fee - the cart fee was for 18 holes, after all. Lump it in with the greens fee or offer a twilight cart rate and I have much less problem with it. Maybe just shows how much of a mental midget I am.

* If a course is going to mandate the cart get in by a certain time, I would expect them to also marshall the course to be sure the round is being played to a reasonable pace.

* Lastly, yes, lots of golfers play twilight rounds because they are less expensive. It's plenty of peoples' only way to play certain courses or at all. Golf isn't cheap. Who are any of us to judge on those motivations?

 

 

[larrybud]

> @"North Butte" said:

> So for a few weeks a year they could probably sell a couple or three or four extra cart rentals most days by keeping their staff there an extra ninety minutes every day.

 

That's a great short sighted demonstration of golf course employees/managers/owners. Or what might happen is that someone might love the service at the course, and decide to hold their next 120 player outing there, or maybe their daughter gets married and spends 20 grand to hold it at that course, or the guy becomes a weekly regular, along with his kids and a couple of generations in the family tree, not to mention word of mouth of how great the service is.

 

[North Butte]

I think that's called the Butterfly Effect. If you keep following that chain of events, eventually that one course staying open ninety extra minutes will change the entire course of human history!

[kg92lefty]

> @larrybud said:

> > @kg92lefty said:

> > Don't like it? Play somewhere else. A business can close whenever they want. People complaining about a course's rates or policies are hilarious. Are they putting a gun to your head making you pay to play there???

> > If I don't like a rate or policy I play at a different time or course. Easy.

> > Are you going to throw a fit that a restaurant closes at a certain time? or closes the kitchen at 8 but the bar at 9? How dare the movie theater have the last showing at 11.

> > World doesn't revolve around you.

>

> We do play somewhere else. Here in MI right now you can play til 9:30. If some course tells me I have to be off by 8, see ya, enjoy your diminished revenue. ** We are discussing how stupid of a policy it is.**

 

Man, it's stupid that restaurants close at 9 or 10. Think about all the people who work late or get off between 10 and midnight? See how dumb that sounds.

 

Again, Are they putting a gun to your head making you pay to play there???

 

You're paying a super ultra twilight rate to play at these times. Those rates aren't guaranteed to finish. Just because you want to pay $20 to play a 4 hour round by yourself at 5:30 doesnt mean they have to let you.

 

[umassgolfer]

Also - there is a specific example this thread reminded me of.

 

There is a golden-age course that the county purchased and recently put a ton of money into. Relatively reasonable, especially to walk as I prefer. Fun layout. But I won't play it anymore. They lock the gates at 8:00, 8:30 during peak of summer - carts due 20 minutes earlier. And by "lock the gates" I mean the gates to the street from the parking lot. So if you're walking, you better budget an extra 25 minutes or so to walk back in, change shoes, etc. I've never really tested this policy but have seen the staff standing by the gate 10 minutes before their "lock-up" time and based on how they operate the rest of the time, don't really want to call their bluff.

 

Since I live in the county next to this course, I cannot make tee times in advance, and as such the course is pretty much only useful to me as a last minute/twilight round.

 

To make things worse, this course's twilight rate kicks in at 4 or 5 depending on the season, and cart fee is not discounted regardless of when you take it out. So, the last hour or so of standard rate tee times are pretty much guaranteed not to finish, but pay full rate.

[CaseyC]

"...Or what might happen is that someone might love the service at the course, and decide to hold their next 120 player outing there...

 

 

Thus closing the course to the members who paid to have the club open for THEM.... Money grubbing management selling memberships and then closing the course to the members!!!!! No wonder members leave and courses go bankrupt!!!! ;)

[kg92lefty]

> @umassgolfer said:

> Also - there is a specific example this thread reminded me of.

>

> There is a golden-age course that the county purchased and recently put a ton of money into. Relatively reasonable, especially to walk as I prefer. Fun layout. But I won't play it anymore. They lock the gates at 8:00, 8:30 during peak of summer - carts due 20 minutes earlier. And by "lock the gates" I mean the gates to the street from the parking lot. So if you're walking, you better budget an extra 25 minutes or so to walk back in, change shoes, etc. I've never really tested this policy but have seen the staff standing by the gate 10 minutes before their "lock-up" time and based on how they operate the rest of the time, don't really want to call their bluff.

>

> Since I live in the county next to this course, I cannot make tee times in advance, and as such the course is pretty much only useful to me as a last minute/twilight round.

>

>** To make things worse, this course's twilight rate kicks in at 4 or 5 depending on the season**, and cart fee is not discounted regardless of when you take it out. So, the last hour or so of standard rate tee times are pretty much guaranteed not to finish, but pay full rate.

 

Twilight is not guaranteed to finish. Or at least that's how it started out, now you have super twilight or such.

[cxx]

> @umassgolfer said:

> Also - there is a specific example this thread reminded me of.

>

> There is a golden-age course that the county purchased and recently put a ton of money into. Relatively reasonable, especially to walk as I prefer. Fun layout. But I won't play it anymore. They lock the gates at 8:00, 8:30 during peak of summer - carts due 20 minutes earlier. And by "lock the gates" I mean the gates to the street from the parking lot. So if you're walking, you better budget an extra 25 minutes or so to walk back in, change shoes, etc. I've never really tested this policy but have seen the staff standing by the gate 10 minutes before their "lock-up" time and based on how they operate the rest of the time, don't really want to call their bluff.

>

> Since I live in the county next to this course, I cannot make tee times in advance, and as such the course is pretty much only useful to me as a last minute/twilight round.

>

> To make things worse, this course's twilight rate kicks in at 4 or 5 depending on the season, and cart fee is not discounted regardless of when you take it out. So, the last hour or so of standard rate tee times are pretty much guaranteed not to finish, but pay full rate.

 

So does the county run it themselves? Or is there a service company running it?