Donald Ross courses overrated?

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @LICC said:

> > @matthewb said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @matthewb said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @matthewb said:

> > > > > > > @jerebear21 said:

> > > > > > > go play brookside canton, timuquana, Holston hills, no2. And then let’s talk.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > FWIW I just think he’s trolling.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Trolling assumes some intent. We are more likely to be seeing ignorance and hubris playing themselves out.

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Says the man too clueless to know that Golden Age architects did not do lots of earth moving due to the lack of modern equipment.

> > > >

> > > > Lol. I never said that. You sure struggle with easy facts.

> > >

> > > Exactly. You haven’t said anything substantive whatsoever. Understanding golf architecture seems beyond your capability

> >

> > You said that I said something about “Golden Age architects did not do lots of earth moving due to the lack of modern equipment.“ I never posted anything remotely like that. Now you’re simply lying and then trying to cover up your lies.

> >

> > C’mon, aren’t you better than this?

>

> Glad you admit you having nothing substantive to say about golf architecture. So much for your failed statements that no student of golf architecture thinks Ross is overrated. Shouldn’t you just give up while you’re behind so you stop looking so foolish?

 

Huh? You’re posting incoherent stuff now. I’ll come back later and see if you’ve regained some lucidity.

[raynorfan1]

> @LICC said:

> I think the George Wright course is consistent with this observation on deficient routing. The course in several areas seems to just plow over and through some big elevation changes in a poor way.

 

This is full on crazy train. The George Wright routing is really good, not even adjusting for the fact that the site was a disaster (built on a quarry where they basically had an army of WPA workers blasting and digging). The use of the slope is one of the best parts of the design.

 

I've been critical of Ross' tendency for boring routing...but George Wright is _not_ and example of that.

[Zen_Golfer]

> @LICC said:

> > @Zengolfer36 said:

> > Ive played a couple Donald Ross courses here in Ohio and I like them. Tree lined fairways, oldschool feel. Whats not to love?

>

> I appreciate that too but the way Ross is spoken of is beyond just good, likeable old school courses, which you see from lots of architects from his era.

 

I dont know that I would say he's the aboslute best golf course architect ever. Im not sure that Im qualified to make that call but like I said, Ive played a few of his courses and enjoyed them a lot.

One that I can think of is Delaware Golf Club in Delaware, OH. It started out as a 9-hole course in the '30s that he designed and later became an 18-hole. The 9 that he designed is currently the back 9 and I very much enjoy it. Like I said: tree lined fairways, oldschool design, lots of elevation changes and just an all-around beautiful course.

I much, much prefer the back 9 to the front 9, which is just ridicules, insane and uses a lot of tricks with sightline to make the holes look narrow and are lined with houses on both sides.

[Chanceman]

Exactly. Abusing a fellow contributor because of their expressed opinion is not only bad manners and against the spirit of the forum but totally wrong. Wrong because nothing of this nature can be proven, it is all a matter of judgement - period.

[PuttCurseRepeat]

> @"QC Heel" said:

> Ok, this is dumb.

 

Looking like the runway winner for Best Post in Thread.

[LICC]

> @raynorfan1 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > I think the George Wright course is consistent with this observation on deficient routing. The course in several areas seems to just plow over and through some big elevation changes in a poor way.

>

> This is full on crazy train. The George Wright routing is really good, not even adjusting for the fact that the site was a disaster (built on a quarry where they basically had an army of WPA workers blasting and digging). The use of the slope is one of the best parts of the design.

>

> I've been critical of Ross' tendency for boring routing...but George Wright is _not_ and example of that.

 

Oh it’s not boring, definitely not. It has several very good to great holes, some ok holes, generally good greens, and several holes that incorporate severe elevations that don’t work well from the perspective of playing the holes. Maybe the limit of the site meant there was no better use of or routing through those elevations, but for a handful of holes it doesn’t work in my opinion.

[duffer987]

Phew, lot to unpack here, but I am guessing somehow this is overrated Ricky Fowler's fault for the Rocket Mortgages event being at a Donald Ross course?

[LICC]

> @duffer987 said:

> Phew, lot to unpack here, but I am guessing somehow this is overrated Ricky Fowler's fault for the Rocket Mortgages event being at a Donald Ross course?

 

Careful- unless you say Ross is one of the best three architects of all time, you will be told by a couple of posters here that you don’t know anything about golf courses and are too ignorant to have an opinion.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @LICC said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > Phew, lot to unpack here, but I am guessing somehow this is overrated Ricky Fowler's fault for the Rocket Mortgages event being at a Donald Ross course?

>

> Careful- unless you say Ross is one of the best three architects of all time, you will be told by a couple of posters here that you don’t know anything about golf courses and are too ignorant to have an opinion.

 

No one ever said that. Again, you’re lying and creating a straw man argument.

 

You should at least be truthful. Is that so hard to do?

[JeffreySpicoli]

The straw man argument . . .

 

 

[duffer987]

> @LICC said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > Phew, lot to unpack here, but I am guessing somehow this is overrated Ricky Fowler's fault for the Rocket Mortgages event being at a Donald Ross course?

>

> Careful- unless you say Ross is one of the best three architects of all time, you will be told by a couple of posters here that you don’t know anything about golf courses and are too ignorant to have an opinion.

 

I was making a joke off the back of the long running "is Rickie overrated" meme that comes up on WRX now and again, seemed to dovetail nicely here.

Being west-coast based, I have limited experience with Ross courses, but would agree with Raynor's perspective on the whole and disagree with anyone making "Ross is not overrated, case closed" arguments.

[LICC]

> @matthewb said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > Phew, lot to unpack here, but I am guessing somehow this is overrated Ricky Fowler's fault for the Rocket Mortgages event being at a Donald Ross course?

> >

> > Careful- unless you say Ross is one of the best three architects of all time, you will be told by a couple of posters here that you don’t know anything about golf courses and are too ignorant to have an opinion.

>

> No one ever said that. Again, you’re lying and creating a straw man argument.

>

> You should at least be truthful. Is that so hard to do?

 

That’s pretty much what you said. It’s all right above so you can’t spin and deny. You said if someone thinks Ross is overrated then they are ignorant about golf architecture and further don’t warrant any merit to their opinion. And that is about all you’ve said, just in different iterations. You’ve added nothing about the golf courses, just baseless insults. Don’t lie about it now bc people are calling you out on that kind of nonsense.

[Celebros]

I've played all of the Donald Ross courses in my area and other than the generally excellent conditions (all but Miami Shores are longstanding country clubs), they really don't do a lot for me.

 

This includes Dayton Country Club, Miami Shores Golf Club, Miami Valley Golf Club (hosted 1957 PGA Championship), Piqua Country Club, and Springfield Country Club.

[LICC]

> @duffer987 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > Phew, lot to unpack here, but I am guessing somehow this is overrated Ricky Fowler's fault for the Rocket Mortgages event being at a Donald Ross course?

> >

> > Careful- unless you say Ross is one of the best three architects of all time, you will be told by a couple of posters here that you don’t know anything about golf courses and are too ignorant to have an opinion.

>

> I was making a joke off the back of the long running "is Rickie overrated" meme that comes up on WRX now and again, seemed to dovetail nicely here.

> Being west-coast based, I have limited experience with Ross courses, but would agree with Raynor's perspective on the whole and disagree with anyone making "Ross is not overrated, case closed" arguments.

 

 

I would say Rickie is more overhyped or overpublicized than overrated. But that’s off topic.

Going off what I said earlier, if I had one choice to play a course and all I had to go by was knowing who the architect was, and Tillie, MacKenzie, Macdonald/Raynor, Coore, and Ross were available, I don’t think I would pick the Ross over any of them.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @LICC said:

> > @matthewb said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > Phew, lot to unpack here, but I am guessing somehow this is overrated Ricky Fowler's fault for the Rocket Mortgages event being at a Donald Ross course?

> > >

> > > Careful- unless you say Ross is one of the best three architects of all time, you will be told by a couple of posters here that you don’t know anything about golf courses and are too ignorant to have an opinion.

> >

> > No one ever said that. Again, you’re lying and creating a straw man argument.

> >

> > You should at least be truthful. Is that so hard to do?

>

> That’s pretty much what you said. It’s all right above so you can’t spin and deny. You said if someone thinks Ross is overrated then they are ignorant about golf architecture and further don’t warrant any merit to their opinion. And that is about all you’ve said, just in different iterations. You’ve added nothing about the golf courses, just baseless insults. Don’t lie about it now bc people are calling you out on that kind of nonsense.

 

You are piling on another lie here. You said that your opponents insist on Ross being one of the top three architects of all time. No one said that. Not even close.

 

On the other hand, you claim that Ross is overrated. Yet you can’t point to anyone who has overrated him. You can’t establish any criteria for why Ross should be considered overrated. You’re simply that loudmouth at the end of the bar that everyone hopes will either leave or fall on the floor passed out. (Your paste of an older Wayne Morrison post didn’t include Morrison noting that he hadn’t studied many Ross courses and that he considers Ross to be a great architect. While Morrison is a crucial resource for Flynn, he’s not considered an essential or noteworthy voice on Ross. He’s not even minor support for your unreasoned position.)

 

I and others here (including raynorfan) are simply noting that Ross is a great architect and that claims to his being overrated due to the Rocket Mortgage event are thin and foolhardy.

 

So, again, tell the truth and back up your argument. If you simply say, “I don’t like Ross courses.” That’s one thing. But saying that Ross is overrated is another thing entirely and becomes an objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference.

[duffer987]

> @matthewb said:

 

> You are piling on another lie here. You said that your opponents insist on Ross being one of the top three architects of all time. No one said that. Not even close.

>

> On the other hand, you claim that Ross is overrated. Yet you can’t point to anyone who has overrated him. You can’t establish any criteria for why Ross should be considered overrated. You’re simply that loudmouth at the end of the bar that everyone hopes will either leave or fall on the floor passed out. (Your paste of an older Wayne Morrison post didn’t include Morrison noting that he hadn’t studied many Ross courses and that he considers Ross to be a great architect. While Morrison is a crucial resource for Flynn, he’s not considered an essential or noteworthy voice on Ross. He’s not even minor support for your unreasoned position.)

>

> I and others here (including raynorfan) are simply noting that Ross is a great architect and that claims to his being overrated due to the Rocket Mortgage event are thin and foolhardy.

>

> So, again, tell the truth and back up your argument. If you simply say, “I don’t like Ross courses.” That’s one thing. But saying that Ross is overrated is another thing entirely and becomes an objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference.

 

I hope you know I was joking about the Rocket Mortgage :-)

 

In regards to being 'top three', someone did mention every architect would mention him in his top 5, not to defend LICC he can have a bash on his own, but it's not a gigantic mischaracterization.

 

And isn't saying Ross definitely isn't overrated, is the same objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference, that saying he is, is?

 

... eesh that's a lot of is's's and isn't't'ts there, apologies

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @duffer987 said:

> > @matthewb said:

>

> > You are piling on another lie here. You said that your opponents insist on Ross being one of the top three architects of all time. No one said that. Not even close.

> >

> > On the other hand, you claim that Ross is overrated. Yet you can’t point to anyone who has overrated him. You can’t establish any criteria for why Ross should be considered overrated. You’re simply that loudmouth at the end of the bar that everyone hopes will either leave or fall on the floor passed out. (Your paste of an older Wayne Morrison post didn’t include Morrison noting that he hadn’t studied many Ross courses and that he considers Ross to be a great architect. While Morrison is a crucial resource for Flynn, he’s not considered an essential or noteworthy voice on Ross. He’s not even minor support for your unreasoned position.)

> >

> > I and others here (including raynorfan) are simply noting that Ross is a great architect and that claims to his being overrated due to the Rocket Mortgage event are thin and foolhardy.

> >

> > So, again, tell the truth and back up your argument. If you simply say, “I don’t like Ross courses.” That’s one thing. But saying that Ross is overrated is another thing entirely and becomes an objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference.

>

> I hope you know I was joking about the Rocket Mortgage :-)

>

> In regards to being 'top three', someone did mention every architect would mention him in his top 5, not to defend LICC he can have a bash on his own, but it's not a gigantic mischaracterization.

>

> And isn't saying Ross definitely isn't overrated, is the same objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference, that saying he is, is?

>

> ... eesh that's a lot of is's's and isn't't'ts there, apologies

 

Didn’t have you in mind about Rocket Mortgage. ;)

 

I didn’t see any top five reference. Maybe I missed it. Regardless, the OP plays fast and loose with facts. He’s not respectful of the basic rules of public argumentation.

 

As far as objective versus subjective claims, a subjective claim is a statement of preference often attributed to the individual making the claim. In the context I’m referring to, an objective claim about overrated invokes the history of a broader and previous conversation about how to regard a golf course architect, what the criteria are for said regard, and a comparison of various architects given the criteria, influence and pedigree, reception, etc. And one needs to show who and how the architect became overrated. In other words, who am I arguing against, what did they say (with a fair representation), and how do I disagree.

 

The consensus on Ross is that he’s a great architect and that he and C.B. Macdonald were the early influencers of course design in the United States between the the two World Wars. Major figures influenced by them and often considered in the same school include, for instance, A.W. Tillinghast, Seth Raynor, George Thomas, William Flynn, Perry Maxwell, William Langford, Tom Simpson, Stanley Thompson, and Willie Watson.

 

It’s easy to think Ross is overrated due to the high number of his courses that end up on various lists. But to run with that and say he’s overrated is lazy and thin.

 

He’s a great architect as are many others. Enjoy his work. Enjoy the work of others. This isn’t a contest to determine who’s the greatest of all time. Instead it’s a discussion of what courses are worthy of enjoyment and what makes them so. And, more importantly, an impetus to roam those courses.

 

[duffer987]

@matthewb - OK, with the new format and the collapsing quotes, wasn't sure.

And yes I don't disagree with those points, I just picked a couple specific points there where I felt (regardless of all the preceding white noise) he wasn't overly mischaracterizing in his reply.

 

I guess an agreed upon definition of "overrated" maybe was needed, as I said I agree with Raynor's POV in regards to excellence and overratedness being able to co-exist; for instance in a one-off example I think Dornoch is fantastic, but overrated.

But I also take your point in regards to architects, that volume shouldn't count against someone.

There's a good deal of interesting stuff in this thread: minus the handbags :-)

[LICC]

> @matthewb said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > > @matthewb said:

> >

> > > You are piling on another lie here. You said that your opponents insist on Ross being one of the top three architects of all time. No one said that. Not even close.

> > >

> > > On the other hand, you claim that Ross is overrated. Yet you can’t point to anyone who has overrated him. You can’t establish any criteria for why Ross should be considered overrated. You’re simply that loudmouth at the end of the bar that everyone hopes will either leave or fall on the floor passed out. (Your paste of an older Wayne Morrison post didn’t include Morrison noting that he hadn’t studied many Ross courses and that he considers Ross to be a great architect. While Morrison is a crucial resource for Flynn, he’s not considered an essential or noteworthy voice on Ross. He’s not even minor support for your unreasoned position.)

> > >

> > > I and others here (including raynorfan) are simply noting that Ross is a great architect and that claims to his being overrated due to the Rocket Mortgage event are thin and foolhardy.

> > >

> > > So, again, tell the truth and back up your argument. If you simply say, “I don’t like Ross courses.” That’s one thing. But saying that Ross is overrated is another thing entirely and becomes an objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference.

> >

> > I hope you know I was joking about the Rocket Mortgage :-)

> >

> > In regards to being 'top three', someone did mention every architect would mention him in his top 5, not to defend LICC he can have a bash on his own, but it's not a gigantic mischaracterization.

> >

> > And isn't saying Ross definitely isn't overrated, is the same objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference, that saying he is, is?

> >

> > ... eesh that's a lot of is's's and isn't't'ts there, apologies

>

> Didn’t have you in mind about Rocket Mortgage. ;)

>

> I didn’t see any top five reference. Maybe I missed it. Regardless, the OP plays fast and loose with facts. He’s not respectful of the basic rules of public argumentation.

>

> As far as objective versus subjective claims, a subjective claim is a statement of preference often attributed to the individual making the claim. In the context I’m referring to, an objective claim about overrated invokes the history of a broader and previous conversation about how to regard a golf course architect, what the criteria are for said regard, and a comparison of various architects given the criteria, influence and pedigree, reception, etc. And one needs to show who and how the architect became overrated. In other words, who am I arguing against, what did they say (with a fair representation), and how do I disagree.

>

> The consensus on Ross is that he’s a great architect and that he and C.B. Macdonald were the early influencers of course design in the United States between the the two World Wars. Major figures influenced by them and often considered in the same school include, for instance, A.W. Tillinghast, Seth Raynor, George Thomas, William Flynn, Perry Maxwell, William Langford, Tom Simpson, Stanley Thompson, and Willie Watson.

>

> It’s easy to think Ross is overrated due to the high number of his courses that end up on various lists. But to run with that and say he’s overrated is lazy and thin.

>

> He’s a great architect as are many others. Enjoy his work. Enjoy the work of others. This isn’t a contest to determine who’s the greatest of all time. Instead it’s a discussion of what courses are worthy of enjoyment and what makes them so. And, more importantly, an impetus to roam those courses.

>

 

You should change your name here to Scrambling Matt the way you are trying to distort what you yourself said. You are a negative factor in this forum. Try being positive.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @LICC said:

> > @matthewb said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > > @matthewb said:

> > >

> > > > You are piling on another lie here. You said that your opponents insist on Ross being one of the top three architects of all time. No one said that. Not even close.

> > > >

> > > > On the other hand, you claim that Ross is overrated. Yet you can’t point to anyone who has overrated him. You can’t establish any criteria for why Ross should be considered overrated. You’re simply that loudmouth at the end of the bar that everyone hopes will either leave or fall on the floor passed out. (Your paste of an older Wayne Morrison post didn’t include Morrison noting that he hadn’t studied many Ross courses and that he considers Ross to be a great architect. While Morrison is a crucial resource for Flynn, he’s not considered an essential or noteworthy voice on Ross. He’s not even minor support for your unreasoned position.)

> > > >

> > > > I and others here (including raynorfan) are simply noting that Ross is a great architect and that claims to his being overrated due to the Rocket Mortgage event are thin and foolhardy.

> > > >

> > > > So, again, tell the truth and back up your argument. If you simply say, “I don’t like Ross courses.” That’s one thing. But saying that Ross is overrated is another thing entirely and becomes an objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference.

> > >

> > > I hope you know I was joking about the Rocket Mortgage :-)

> > >

> > > In regards to being 'top three', someone did mention every architect would mention him in his top 5, not to defend LICC he can have a bash on his own, but it's not a gigantic mischaracterization.

> > >

> > > And isn't saying Ross definitely isn't overrated, is the same objective claim rather than a statement of subjective preference, that saying he is, is?

> > >

> > > ... eesh that's a lot of is's's and isn't't'ts there, apologies

> >

> > Didn’t have you in mind about Rocket Mortgage. ;)

> >

> > I didn’t see any top five reference. Maybe I missed it. Regardless, the OP plays fast and loose with facts. He’s not respectful of the basic rules of public argumentation.

> >

> > As far as objective versus subjective claims, a subjective claim is a statement of preference often attributed to the individual making the claim. In the context I’m referring to, an objective claim about overrated invokes the history of a broader and previous conversation about how to regard a golf course architect, what the criteria are for said regard, and a comparison of various architects given the criteria, influence and pedigree, reception, etc. And one needs to show who and how the architect became overrated. In other words, who am I arguing against, what did they say (with a fair representation), and how do I disagree.

> >

> > The consensus on Ross is that he’s a great architect and that he and C.B. Macdonald were the early influencers of course design in the United States between the the two World Wars. Major figures influenced by them and often considered in the same school include, for instance, A.W. Tillinghast, Seth Raynor, George Thomas, William Flynn, Perry Maxwell, William Langford, Tom Simpson, Stanley Thompson, and Willie Watson.

> >

> > It’s easy to think Ross is overrated due to the high number of his courses that end up on various lists. But to run with that and say he’s overrated is lazy and thin.

> >

> > He’s a great architect as are many others. Enjoy his work. Enjoy the work of others. This isn’t a contest to determine who’s the greatest of all time. Instead it’s a discussion of what courses are worthy of enjoyment and what makes them so. And, more importantly, an impetus to roam those courses.

> >

>

> You should change your name here to Scrambling Matt the way you are trying to distort what you yourself said. You are a negative factor in this forum. Try being positive.

 

You’re not someone that should be dispensing advice. But you make me laugh! Have another drink on me.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @duffer987 said:

> @matthewb - OK, with the new format and the collapsing quotes, wasn't sure.

> And yes I don't disagree with those points, I just picked a couple specific points there where I felt (regardless of all the preceding white noise) he wasn't overly mischaracterizing in his reply.

>

> I guess an agreed upon definition of "overrated" maybe was needed, as I said I agree with Raynor's POV in regards to excellence and overratedness being able to co-exist; for instance in a one-off example I think Dornoch is fantastic, but overrated.

> But I also take your point in regards to architects, that volume shouldn't count against someone.

> There's a good deal of interesting stuff in this thread: minus the handbags :-)

 

The underlying problem with this thread is that the OP quickly pursued only those replies that agreed with his overrated thesis while he aggressively attacked anyone who noted that he comes across as a troll. All this while he rapidly went from “I don’t know much about Ross” to “I’m one of the most informed students of golf course architecture on this forum.”

 

If the OP started with,”I don’t know much about Ross. I’ve only played two of his courses. Why is he so highly regarded as a golf course architect?” then we would have had a much different conversation. Instead, the OP doubled down on his ignorance in a belligerent manner and started to produce lies and straw man arguments.

 

To me, the most interesting way to explore Ross and how he is regarded starts with how one judges golf course architecture and then moves to discussion of individual courses and particular holes. That’s much harder than recommending one’s current set of irons to whomever asks for iron recommendations. This forum has sharp individuals with vast experience and knowledge. We’re capable of better discussions but we need to demand better argumentation than what the OP has offered.

 

[LICC]

> @matthewb said:

> > @duffer987 said:

> > @matthewb - OK, with the new format and the collapsing quotes, wasn't sure.

> > And yes I don't disagree with those points, I just picked a couple specific points there where I felt (regardless of all the preceding white noise) he wasn't overly mischaracterizing in his reply.

> >

> > I guess an agreed upon definition of "overrated" maybe was needed, as I said I agree with Raynor's POV in regards to excellence and overratedness being able to co-exist; for instance in a one-off example I think Dornoch is fantastic, but overrated.

> > But I also take your point in regards to architects, that volume shouldn't count against someone.

> > There's a good deal of interesting stuff in this thread: minus the handbags :-)

>

> The underlying problem with this thread is that the OP quickly pursued only those replies that agreed with his overrated thesis while he aggressively attacked anyone who noted that he comes across as a troll. All this while he rapidly went from “I don’t know much about Ross” to “I’m one of the most informed students of golf course architecture on this forum.”

>

> If the OP started with,”I don’t know much about Ross. I’ve only played two of his courses. Why is he so highly regarded as a golf course architect?” then we would have had a much different conversation. Instead, the OP doubled down on his ignorance in a belligerent manner and started to produce lies and straw man arguments.

>

> To me, the most interesting way to explore Ross and how he is regarded starts with how one judges golf course architecture and then moves to discussion of individual courses and particular holes. That’s much harder than recommending one’s current set of irons to whomever asks for iron recommendations. This forum has sharp individuals with vast experience and knowledge. We’re capable of better discussions but we need to demand better argumentation than what the OP has offered.

>

The biggest problem of this thread is you insulting people who never said anything negative toward you.

I started the thread asking if anyone else thinks Ross courses are overrated. Overrated- rated more highly than they should be. Several people gave good views that they are, several gave good reasons why they deserve to be rated highly, and you and one other did nothing but make low level insulting comments.

 

[wkuo3]

For some, Sirloin will taste as good as Prime Rib. They all came from the same source.

Actually, if cooked properly, each have their own.

One of my friend golf the Pinehurst no.2 and his comment was a very nice golf course but nothing special ! I could not understand that. Just how special a golf course should be ?

Pebble Beach is a great golf course but in my opinion, it's not worth anywhere close to the green fees in place.

But then again, is there anything is definitely worth the price tag or the fame it bares ?

 

Tradition is part of the charm. I guess when you play the Old Course , you would say, nothing special about that .

[LICC]

> @LICC said:

> > @matthewb said:

> > > @duffer987 said:

> > > @matthewb - OK, with the new format and the collapsing quotes, wasn't sure.

> > > And yes I don't disagree with those points, I just picked a couple specific points there where I felt (regardless of all the preceding white noise) he wasn't overly mischaracterizing in his reply.

> > >

> > > I guess an agreed upon definition of "overrated" maybe was needed, as I said I agree with Raynor's POV in regards to excellence and overratedness being able to co-exist; for instance in a one-off example I think Dornoch is fantastic, but overrated.

> > > But I also take your point in regards to architects, that volume shouldn't count against someone.

> > > There's a good deal of interesting stuff in this thread: minus the handbags :-)

> >

> > The underlying problem with this thread is that the OP quickly pursued only those replies that agreed with his overrated thesis while he aggressively attacked anyone who noted that he comes across as a troll. All this while he rapidly went from “I don’t know much about Ross” to “I’m one of the most informed students of golf course architecture on this forum.”

> >

> > If the OP started with,”I don’t know much about Ross. I’ve only played two of his courses. Why is he so highly regarded as a golf course architect?” then we would have had a much different conversation. Instead, the OP doubled down on his ignorance in a belligerent manner and started to produce lies and straw man arguments.

> >

> > To me, the most interesting way to explore Ross and how he is regarded starts with how one judges golf course architecture and then moves to discussion of individual courses and particular holes. That’s much harder than recommending one’s current set of irons to whomever asks for iron recommendations. This forum has sharp individuals with vast experience and knowledge. We’re capable of better discussions but we need to demand better argumentation than what the OP has offered.

> >

> The biggest problem of this thread is you insulting people who never said anything negative toward you.

> I started the thread asking if anyone else thinks Ross courses are overrated. Overrated- rated more highly than they should be. Several people gave good views that they are, several gave good reasons why they deserve to be rated highly, and you and one other did nothing but make low level insulting comments.

>

All this while he rapidly went from “I don’t know much about Ross” to “I’m one of the most informed students of golf course architecture on this forum.”

 

And @matthewb when you put something in quotes, that means it is an exact copy of what was said unless you note you are paraphrasing. I didn’t say either of those things. I didn’t even say anything that meant what you put in quotes. I said I’ve only played a few Ross courses. That is much different than saying I don’t know much about Ross. I also said, after insulting prodding from you, that I know as much about golf architecture as most of the people posting here. That is also not the same as what you said. So your distortions and misuse of quotations show that you are a hypocritical liar. I can’t trust any of the nonsense you post.

[jerebear21]

Name those few courses you have played and why you didn’t like them. I’m a simpleton. 2-3 sentences is enough for me.

[LICC]

To get back on topic, here is an interesting old article by someone who did restoration work on several Ross courses who asserts that some of the classic features people attribute to Ross really weren’t Ross at all:

 

https://www.golfcoursearchitecture.net/content/donald-ross

[LICC]

> @jerebear21 said:

> Name those few courses you have played and why you didn’t like them. I’m a simpleton. 2-3 sentences is enough for me.

 

 

Actually I never said I didn’t like them. I said I liked them and they were good but not standouts. They were good like many other courses I’ve played from less heralded architects are good.

 

Biltmore- very good, nice movement of the fairways and bunker placement. Decent greens

George Wright- some very good holes, some ok holes, and some goofy holes that are routed through severe elevations in a way that don’t work well. Generally good, interesting greens.

The other two are Ross courses but have been changed or holes removed, added etc so not all or even most Ross anymore. Wykagl and Echo Lake.

[Chanceman]

> @duffer987 said:

> @matthewb - OK, with the new format and the collapsing quotes, wasn't sure.

> And yes I don't disagree with those points, I just picked a couple specific points there where I felt (regardless of all the preceding white noise) he wasn't overly mischaracterizing in his reply.

>

> I guess an agreed upon definition of "overrated" maybe was needed, as I said I agree with Raynor's POV in regards to excellence and overratedness being able to co-exist; for instance in a one-off example I think Dornoch is fantastic, but overrated.

> But I also take your point in regards to architects, that volume shouldn't count against someone.

> There's a good deal of interesting stuff in this thread: minus the handbags :-)

 

OK so Royal Dornoch is "fantastic but over-rated". By whom and on what basis ? Certainly not by me. If it is not one of the top 10 or 20 courses in the world what is? I have never played Pine Valley, Cypress Point or Augusta National but to my unprofessional eye it sure rates with all the others up in that region of the Top 100. (That I have played, I should say). Do you know somethng that I dont?

[Kevlar10]

Has anyone played Pocono Manor? I just found out it’s a DR designed course and it’s relatively close to me. I’m going to Pinehurst in August and I thought it would be a good way to get ready for the two DR courses we will be playing. I’ve read a few reviews about Pocono Manor and it seems like a mixed bag between a vanilla/boring course and one with great elevation changes, views and challenging. Opinions about Pocono Manor?

A little off topic but; there is a Tillinghast course a few minutes from me and to me, it’s not even close to a great course. Flat, open, and very pedestrian, IMO. It gets good reviews but I’ve played courses designed by “no names” and enjoy them much more. It goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not everyone appreciates the same things.

[LICC]

> @Kevlar10 said:

> Has anyone played Pocono Manor? I just found out it’s a DR designed course and it’s relatively close to me. I’m going to Pinehurst in August and I thought it would be a good way to get ready for the two DR courses we will be playing. I’ve read a few reviews about Pocono Manor and it seems like a mixed bag between a vanilla/boring course and one with great elevation changes, views and challenging. Opinions about Pocono Manor?

> A little off topic but; there is a Tillinghast course a few minutes from me and to me, it’s not even close to a great course. Flat, open, and very pedestrian, IMO. It gets good reviews but I’ve played courses designed by “no names” and enjoy them much more. It goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and not everyone appreciates the same things.

 

Which Tillinghast course? Is it an original Tillie or one of those that he consulted on during his PGA contracting tour?