My MOI iron build. Thank you Howard

[mogc60]

So a little about me. Former college player and club pro for 18 years. Been out of golf for about 7 years and in that time played very little. I would chip and putt when I had time but golf just wasn’t on my radar. I’m 45 now and my parts are feeling it. Wrist, thumb, elbow and shoulder aren’t that great. I’ve been trying to get my game back this year and tinkering with equipment to find what works now! Not then. I decided to make the switch to graphite iron shafts and some of you may have seen my review of the PX Catalyst 100. Great shaft and glad I made that choice. Part of working on my game has been fixing a few problems I’ve had forever. My muscle memory isn’t as strong as it used to be so some of these changes are easier to make as was the switch to a 100 gram iron shaft. On that note....

 

For as long as I’ve played golf my irons have started with a 35.5” pitching wedge, 1/4” gap between PW-9 iron and 4/8” gaps throughout the set. I measure at +1/4” but that always felt too long to me so I went with what’s comfortable. The wedge has always been my club, the one I rarely miss and the one I can hit any shot with. My short iron play has always been strong. Mid irons ok and long irons not on par with my game overall. Not really struggled but not on the level they should have been. I’ve always used a shorter driver, 44-44 1/4”, 41 1/2-42” 3 wood. But iron normal is 4/8” gaps and I just never thought of changing that. I never would have went shorter because my wedges would be too short. After I switched to the Catalyst shaft I hit a ton of balls...and as was normally the case my ball striking was near perfect with the shorter clubs and gradually got a bit off working to the 3 iron. Well enough of that I thought. I’d read about the MOI concept and thought WTH no better time than now to try this. I’ve always felt I had to work harder to hit a long iron on line. Not that I couldn’t do it but it required me to make adjustments. I liked the concept of using the same effort to swing each club. I thought why not start at my favorite, the PW and progress from there. So I PM’d Howard Jones to make sure I was understanding exactly what I was doing and how to get the slope right from there.

 

Howard was great at taking my situation and giving all the tips I needed to get it right. I did a test run as he suggested choking down to marked points and adding weight to see if I wanted to do it. I felt a big difference and decided to go for it. I carefully measured and cut each iron to get to the 3/8” gaps between clubs, leaving the 3 iron -7/8” from the standard I had always used. I already had the headweights from installing the Catalyst shafts and I knew my gaps were 7 grams on the number. I adjusted the lie angles and started adding weight with lead tape. I started with half gram increment increases club to club starting with the 8 iron through the 3 iron. So 1/2 gram on the 8 and 3 grams on the 3 iron. The wedge and 9 iron already felt perfect. I hit balls morning and night, getting used to the length change was mental, I kept trying to setup different rather than just setting up and gripping it. Also, my instinct to try harder on a 4 iron than a 9 iron took a few buckets to get out of my system. I’ve continued to work on the weight to get it to feel right. I haven’t cared about SW...this has been purely about it feeling right each individual club but being mindful of the gram changes between clubs. Here are my final gram additions to my irons

 

PW. 35 4/8. 0

9. 35 7/8. 1 gram

8. 36 1/8. 2 grams

7. 36 4/8. 2.5 grams

6. 36 7/8. 3.5 grams

5. 37 2/8. 4 grams

4. 37 5/8. 4.5 grams

3. 38. 5 grams

 

At these weights they felt very balanced and very consistent club to club in the effort required to swing the club. They balance feels very good and my ball striking was becoming very consistent. I noticed no difference in height or distance of my shots. It was time to go play and take it to the course. I decided to go to a place I know very well, I was the pro there for 15 years and hold the course record there of...60.... It’s a very tight golf course with some short holes that require irons off the tees and very demanding approach shots to small sloping greens. It’s basically on a mountain.

I played two rounds there and was really pleased with what I was feeling. The long irons were very easy to swing and I felt like I had to make no adjustments really club to club. My ball flight is very consistent and I can control the flight up or down with no problem at all. My distances have not changed at all other than the few yards I picked up in switching to the graphite shafts. I wish I would have made this change years ago but the stigma of what’s standard held me back from ever considering something like this. But it makes sense. Get each club right. Get it to feel right. Obviously in a “set” there needs to be a flow or a slope to what we’re doing but if they feel too long and feel too heavy than change it! I’d done it with my woods for 20 years and drive the ball fantastic. Why not do the same for my irons. I’m excited to continue to play with my irons and get even more used to making closer to the same effort of swing throughout the set. For the record I went 69, 66 those two rounds. Not to toot my horn because that’s not the point. I’m still a good player, but I’m not too stubborn to try something to improve my game or make it a bit simpler. We all know this is the hardest game ever except those few magic days it gets easier. I feel my swing got a bit easier with half my set with this change. If you are feeling similar to things I’ve always felt, don’t be afraid to try something new. This change took some adjusting and working to get everything to feel right, but I’m glad I made the change.

Thank you to Howard for all your help. What an amazing resource we all have here on Golfwrx and your input to these forums is fantastic. And to all the others who share your input and knowledge on the topics of clubfitting and the effects of all components involved, I truly enjoy reading and learning from all of you.

Cheers my friends......

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

Thanks for those nice words, we are quite a few on this forum who spend lots of time helping others, and it pays off when we see that we are able to help online like this, even if we did not even see they swing a golf club a single time, that should not be possible, but it is....

 

All we can do online is to guide others for how we by self testing, trial and error can make a club fitting on ourself, and like in this case, suggest solutions to try off who might improve the way the players clubs feel and work, but its always up to the player himself to make it right and find what works the best for him, what i and others can deliver is only the methods we can use to get there, i never know whats right for those who ask, only trial and error can tell.

 

As long as the player himself is open minded to suggestions, and willing to do the testing needed, he will find whats right for him, i only wish that way more players would give it a try, since it dont demand special tools, and we can do the trial and error stage of testing without cutting anything, so we cant mess it up.

 

The most common mistake players do when they try to self fit and modify a club or a set is that they just take the decision and CUT shafts, way before its needed, and way before we know that its right to do so or to what lengths we should go, so they start out wrong, and way to often end up regretting they did anything at all.

 

It feels really good when feedback like this comes, that dont happen very often, those who get guiding often forget to come back to the forum and tell how they made it and what they got out of it, but its when users like you can conform, YOU MADE IT, it works, thats what other need to read to believe they can make it too, and they can.

[mogc60]

I found my driver length through trial and error. I used to never miss a 5 wood when I carried one and whiffed the 3 wood. One day I cut the 3 wood to 5 wood length...got the weight right and never have gone longer since. It seems with irons though we get so caught up in what we measure at or what the “standard” is. Half my set has always in some way felt wrong...and I can honestly say the 3-7 iron now feel more natural than ever. Whether you are a scratch player or an 18 hdcp, Or a 30, there is what feels right. That one club or clubs that fit us. One of your last suggestions to me was, now just make every club your favorite. I feel I’m closer to that than ever.

[bunta]

So let me get this right guys? The whole gist of MOI matching, is to cut the irons slightly shorter, add some lead tape, and your distances with each club wont change. Just swing the same with every club.

[Howard_Jones]

for short YES, if you want to swing all clubs like it was the same club (single length idea), this is how we can do it, and the play length differences we keep, will give the needed club speed progression into the long end, but with improved impact, so we dont loose any distance at all, but improve dispersion for gapping. (less variables on distance).

 

Just follow the right test procedure, DONT CUT anything, just lower your hands on the grip to the "new play length" (use a mark on the grip) and add the needed amount of head weight with lead tape and try it off, but DONT just try the suggested head weight, try a bit higher too, so its not always a FLAT MOI is the best, sometimes a small actual progression for resistance is better, and this way we can find what fits US the best.

[Howard_Jones]

> @bunta said:

> So let me get this right guys? The whole gist of MOI matching, is to cut the irons slightly shorter, add some lead tape, and your distances with each club wont change. Just swing the same with every club.

 

Tell me what iron that work the best in your bag, and the specs it has (play length), and what set up you got (3-PW- 4-PW), and i can do the numbers for you.

 

My APP is based on the #8 iron, but thats no always the favorite club, so tell me whats your favorite club in the set is, and i can help you to make the others to feel just like that one.

[mogc60]

To follow up on Howard’s point. Mine was not a FLAT MOI build, but more the small weight progression version. I tinkered with the FLAT numbers he sent me and some clubs felt good and some felt too light. I hit a lot of balls and added weight and took weight off many times. Tried the numbers according to the app and small differences to those. I ended up fairly close to those numbers but with slightly smaller weight gaps between irons but they feel right to me.

On the point of distance gaps...I have always had about 15 yard gaps in my short irons and that gap goes down to 10 yards in the 3,4,5 maybe 6 iron. My sample size is small but I noticed my gaps are larger, closer to the short iron gaps now. I can only think it’s because my speed is more consistent and contact slightly better so I’m getting the full yardage from the longer clubs.

[bunta]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @bunta said:

> > So let me get this right guys? The whole gist of MOI matching, is to cut the irons slightly shorter, add some lead tape, and your distances with each club wont change. Just swing the same with every club.

>

> Tell me what iron that work the best in your bag, and the specs it has (play length), and what set up you got (3-PW- 4-PW), and i can do the numbers for you.

>

> My APP is based on the #8 iron, but thats no always the favorite club, so tell me whats your favorite club in the set is, and i can help you to make the others to feel just like that one.

 

i will put the specs together for you at some point tomorrow and PM you. Thanks howard.

[cardoustie]

I’ve done this at 51 as well

Graphite and same iron length gapping

What are your swing weights

My 6 to PW run d6 to e0

[Howard_Jones]

> @bunta said:

> i will put the specs together for you at some point tomorrow and PM you. Thanks howard.

 

Lets take it in the forum, start a new tread....then others can read and follow the project from start to end, and just remember, there is no stupid questions here, ask about what ever there might be, and ill do my best to explain it.

[mogc60]

> @cardoustie said:

> I’ve done this at 51 as well

> Graphite and same iron length gapping

> What are your swing weights

> My 6 to PW run d6 to e0

 

My lead tape friend...haha.

I honestly have not measured the swingweights. I almost did the last time I went to adjust the lie angle on my 4 iron that was still off a bit. I wanted to keep any numbers out of getting the weight to where it felt right. If that makes sense. It was purely a feel thing in adding weight and getting to where the balance felt right and weight felt comfortable

[cardoustie]

Fwiw, no tape on the blueprints... yet

[mogc60]

I will get them measured now that they are done just for reference. The blueprints have great headweight though. My PW is 290 headweight. 7 gram gaps prior to the current build and adding weight for this.

[Howard_Jones]

> @cardoustie said:

> Fwiw, no tape on the blueprints... yet

 

If you are a lead-tape lover like me, you got something to look forward to, im writing on a subject ive called "Lead tape heaven"....

 

Key-words..shaft tolerances better than "Tour issue"...Ascending weight shaft setup, how to make a counter-weighted shaft, or why not go 3/8"?....

 

If they ever try to make lead tape illegal, you will find me in a sleeping bag outside USGA protesting until they change their minds....

[MysteryV]

Does MOI matching work for taller players who play 0.5" - 1" over? I'm interested in the idea, and certainly have some sets and shafts I could test on, but am currently playing ~0.75" over length, ~D6 irons and really don't want to go back to hunching over.

[cardoustie]

> @MysteryV said:

> Does MOI matching work for taller players who play 0.5" - 1" over? I'm interested in the idea, and certainly have some sets and shafts I could test on, but am currently playing ~0.75" over length, ~D6 irons and really don't want to go back to hunching over.

Yes

I start w a wedge 1” or 1.25 over, add 1/4 to the nine then 3/8” from 9i to 6i

Irons increase 1pt per iron as the clubs get shorter

 

[mogc60]

> @cardoustie said:

> I’ve done this at 51 as well

> Graphite and same iron length gapping

> What are your swing weights

> My 6 to PW run d6 to e0

 

I went to the range earlier and decided to go measure the swingweight after at my local shop. I won’t list them all

PW. D2-

3 iron C8.5

Pretty consistent moving through the set on the progression. My math says that’s about 1.3 swingweights per inch. Don’t know if that’s about right for MOI, but it’s feeling darn good. Like I said I never measured swingweight after I cut them. Went purely on what felt good to me. They are feeling better all the time. Today I got going with the 4,5 irons and was just puring them.

I’m not surprised by where they came out on the scale. I have UTX grips with one full wrap and 5 extra progressive wraps through the right hand. That may trick the scale a bit but it doesn’t trick my hands. To me the weight and balance feels perfect.

 

[Red4282]

> @mogc60 said:

> So a little about me. Former college player and club pro for 18 years. Been out of golf for about 7 years and in that time played very little. I would chip and putt when I had time but golf just wasn’t on my radar. I’m 45 now and my parts are feeling it. Wrist, thumb, elbow and shoulder aren’t that great. I’ve been trying to get my game back this year and tinkering with equipment to find what works now! Not then. I decided to make the switch to graphite iron shafts and some of you may have seen my review of the PX Catalyst 100. Great shaft and glad I made that choice. Part of working on my game has been fixing a few problems I’ve had forever. My muscle memory isn’t as strong as it used to be so some of these changes are easier to make as was the switch to a 100 gram iron shaft. On that note....

>

> For as long as I’ve played golf my irons have started with a 35.5” pitching wedge, 1/4” gap between PW-9 iron and 4/8” gaps throughout the set. I measure at +1/4” but that always felt too long to me so I went with what’s comfortable. The wedge has always been my club, the one I rarely miss and the one I can hit any shot with. My short iron play has always been strong. Mid irons ok and long irons not on par with my game overall. Not really struggled but not on the level they should have been. I’ve always used a shorter driver, 44-44 1/4”, 41 1/2-42” 3 wood. But iron normal is 4/8” gaps and I just never thought of changing that. I never would have went shorter because my wedges would be too short. After I switched to the Catalyst shaft I hit a ton of balls...and as was normally the case my ball striking was near perfect with the shorter clubs and gradually got a bit off working to the 3 iron. Well enough of that I thought. I’d read about the MOI concept and thought WTH no better time than now to try this. I’ve always felt I had to work harder to hit a long iron on line. Not that I couldn’t do it but it required me to make adjustments. I liked the concept of using the same effort to swing each club. I thought why not start at my favorite, the PW and progress from there. So I PM’d Howard Jones to make sure I was understanding exactly what I was doing and how to get the slope right from there.

>

> Howard was great at taking my situation and giving all the tips I needed to get it right. I did a test run as he suggested choking down to marked points and adding weight to see if I wanted to do it. I felt a big difference and decided to go for it. I carefully measured and cut each iron to get to the 3/8” gaps between clubs, leaving the 3 iron -7/8” from the standard I had always used. I already had the headweights from installing the Catalyst shafts and I knew my gaps were 7 grams on the number. I adjusted the lie angles and started adding weight with lead tape. I started with half gram increment increases club to club starting with the 8 iron through the 3 iron. So 1/2 gram on the 8 and 3 grams on the 3 iron. The wedge and 9 iron already felt perfect. I hit balls morning and night, getting used to the length change was mental, I kept trying to setup different rather than just setting up and gripping it. Also, my instinct to try harder on a 4 iron than a 9 iron took a few buckets to get out of my system. I’ve continued to work on the weight to get it to feel right. I haven’t cared about SW...this has been purely about it feeling right each individual club but being mindful of the gram changes between clubs. Here are my final gram additions to my irons

>

> PW. 35 4/8. 0

> 9. 35 7/8. 1 gram

> 8. 36 1/8. 2 grams

> 7. 36 4/8. 2.5 grams

> 6. 36 7/8. 3.5 grams

> 5. 37 2/8. 4 grams

> 4. 37 5/8. 4.5 grams

> 3. 38. 5 grams

>

>

> At these weights they felt very balanced and very consistent club to club in the effort required to swing the club. They balance feels very good and my ball striking was becoming very consistent. I noticed no difference in height or distance of my shots. It was time to go play and take it to the course. I decided to go to a place I know very well, I was the pro there for 15 years and hold the course record there of...60.... It’s a very tight golf course with some short holes that require irons off the tees and very demanding approach shots to small sloping greens. It’s basically on a mountain.

> I played two rounds there and was really pleased with what I was feeling. The long irons were very easy to swing and I felt like I had to make no adjustments really club to club. My ball flight is very consistent and I can control the flight up or down with no problem at all. My distances have not changed at all other than the few yards I picked up in switching to the graphite shafts. I wish I would have made this change years ago but the stigma of what’s standard held me back from ever considering something like this. But it makes sense. Get each club right. Get it to feel right. Obviously in a “set” there needs to be a flow or a slope to what we’re doing but if they feel too long and feel too heavy than change it! I’d done it with my woods for 20 years and drive the ball fantastic. Why not do the same for my irons. I’m excited to continue to play with my irons and get even more used to making closer to the same effort of swing throughout the set. For the record I went 69, 66 those two rounds. Not to toot my horn because that’s not the point. I’m still a good player, but I’m not too stubborn to try something to improve my game or make it a bit simpler. We all know this is the hardest game ever except those few magic days it gets easier. I feel my swing got a bit easier with half my set with this change. If you are feeling similar to things I’ve always felt, don’t be afraid to try something new. This change took some adjusting and working to get everything to feel right, but I’m glad I made the change.

> Thank you to Howard for all your help. What an amazing resource we all have here on Golfwrx and your input to these forums is fantastic. And to all the others who share your input and knowledge on the topics of clubfitting and the effects of all components involved, I truly enjoy reading and learning from all of you.

> Cheers my friends......

>

>

>

>

>

>

 

What a great thread! By the way thanks again for the help on the hybrid shaft. Reading your story reminded me a lot of my own. Im 37, played a little juco golf back in the day. Quit playing as well, although mine was for 10 years. Never shot 60, but i did shoot 63 once on my home course! As far as your build...i myself have attempted a similar build this last year, with some differences, and what i now realize may be some errors.

 

Im 6’4” and 20 years ago i was fitted by ping at +1 over standard. I never was a fan of that build, long irons i always hit like crap, mid irons ok, and short irons pretty good. A few years later i bought a set that were standard and just started playing them, not thinking twice. My ball striking improved dramatically, but i would still say the long irons were a relative weakness compared to everything else.

 

So this most recent build i decided to kind of combine both builds into one, and attempt a more moi matching build. I figured leave the long irons near standard, and build the length into the short irons, where i need the extra length the most(but still wont effect ball striking). I started with the 4 iron at +1/4 and worked up in 3/8 increments.

4i- 38 3/4 +1/4

5i- 38 3/8 +3/8

6i - 38 +1/2

7i- 37 5/8 +5/8

8i- 37 1/4 +3/4

9i- 36 7/8 +7/8

Pw 36 1/2 +1

 

As far as lengths go i love it, but heres where i think this thread made me realize i need to redo some things. Im having issues getting the weight right. Since the pw is Going to have the highest swing-weight, i “blind” moi matched from the pw down. My swing-weight of the pw came in at d6. Unweighted my 4 iron came in at c7. Thats quite a gap to make up. I gradually added weight down the set, ending with 7 grams on my 4 iron to bring it to d1.

 

Now heres where it gets interesting, and confusing to me. Im hitting my long irons better than i ever have in my whole life. The short irons are- well iffy. I don't hit them BAD, but my striking i feel isn't where it should be. A couple slightly thin and toe hits a round isn't uncommon. I would normally say ah the extra length.. but it doesnt make alot of sense to me. Why can i smoke a 5 iron 9 times out of ten? Its longer than any short iron. I fear my static and swingweights with the short irons may be a bit too much. My pw weighed in at 489 grams. Not sure where to go from here other than the feel approach like you did! If all else fails i may try 1/16 increments or going to a lighter shaft- im in kbs tour 130s right now. Dont mean to hijack your thread but it was a great read and im happy you found this zen!

[mogc60]

You didn’t hi jack my thread...I posted my thread just for this reason. So that others could read my experience and learn from it. It sounds to me like your clubs are very close to being what fits you. And feels right to you. You did have a huge weight progression before but sounds like you got the longer clubs right. I’m not an expert on where you should go from here. Reducing headweight isn’t as simple as adding lead tape. If the overall weight in the long clubs feels good I don’t know if shaft change is the route either. Good news is you are really close so I wouldn’t panic much. We are talking probably a gram or 2 per club adjustments that might be needed to get your shorter clubs to feel right. Howard is very involved in my build and in this thread, hate to volunteer his input, but he normally is on here at 1-2 am our time here in the states. He will know a good way to reduce the short irons to get it right.

You’re welcome on the hybrid info...it seemed like just what you were describing you were looking for.

[cardoustie]

Look at lie angles on the short irons ... flatten your p-wedge 2* and test

[Howard_Jones]

> @MysteryV said:

> Does MOI matching work for taller players who play 0.5" - 1" over? I'm interested in the idea, and certainly have some sets and shafts I could test on, but am currently playing ~0.75" over length, ~D6 irons and really don't want to go back to hunching over.

 

This is how we can judge the different set up, ALL VS STANDARD.

In your case, look at the line on top, it looks like we start from a standard #3 iron, and then we only go 3/8" shorter per club into the short, that makes ALL club but the 3# progressive longer than standard as we go shorter, so we end up with a #9 iron thats 6/8" or 0.75" longer than standard..

 

 

You get to keep your stance in the short end, but get the same benefit as others since your long end goes shorter vs what you normally would have played, so like for all the others, you get a #3 thats 6/8" shorter than now. (or "1,5 clubs shorter in" when that club comes to play)

 

If your set was D2 as "standard" (before extension or longer shafts), the lowest SW value we can build this set to (so we avoid head weight removal), would be this numbers, where your #9 would be D6.5 and your "new" #8 iron, only 1/8" shorter than now becomes D6....sound like your preference...ALL SW Numbers can be RAISED higher than this, but not lower unless we use hosel drilling to remove weight.

 

Its still the option on top of this list for you, its says plus 5/8", but thats because all numbers is done vs the #8 iron, so your #9 is still plus 6/8"

 

This was the chart i had ready at hand, but if you want your "8 to be plus 0.75" like now, NO Problem, we just make them all 1/8" longer......

 

All numbers here is to "poor mans MOI match", so its the LOWEST head weight option.

[OrangeGravy]

posting to track thread. I'm gonna do this hopefully pretty soon.

[Howard_Jones]

> What a great thread! By the way thanks again for the help on the hybrid shaft. Reading your story reminded me a lot of my own. Im 37, played a little juco golf back in the day. Quit playing as well, although mine was for 10 years. Never shot 60, but i did shoot 63 once on my home course! As far as your build...i myself have attempted a similar build this last year, with some differences, and what i now realize may be some errors.

>

> Im 6’4” and 20 years ago i was fitted by ping at +1 over standard. I never was a fan of that build, long irons i always hit like crap, mid irons ok, and short irons pretty good. A few years later i bought a set that were standard and just started playing them, not thinking twice. My ball striking improved dramatically, but i would still say the long irons were a relative weakness compared to everything else.

>

> So this most recent build i decided to kind of combine both builds into one, and attempt a more moi matching build. I figured leave the long irons near standard, and build the length into the short irons, where i need the extra length the most(but still wont effect ball striking). I started with the 4 iron at +1/4 and worked up in 3/8 increments.

> 4i- 38 3/4 +1/4

> 5i- 38 3/8 +3/8

> 6i - 38 +1/2

> 7i- 37 5/8 +5/8

> 8i- 37 1/4 +3/4

> 9i- 36 7/8 +7/8

> Pw 36 1/2 +1

>

> As far as lengths go i love it, but heres where i think this thread made me realize i need to redo some things. Im having issues getting the weight right. Since the pw is Going to have the highest swing-weight, i “blind” moi matched from the pw down. My swing-weight of the pw came in at d6. Unweighted my 4 iron came in at c7. Thats quite a gap to make up. I gradually added weight down the set, ending with 7 grams on my 4 iron to bring it to d1.

>

> Now heres where it gets interesting, and confusing to me. Im hitting my long irons better than i ever have in my whole life. The short irons are- well iffy. I don't hit them BAD, but my striking i feel isn't where it should be. A couple slightly thin and toe hits a round isn't uncommon. I would normally say ah the extra length.. but it doesnt make alot of sense to me. Why can i smoke a 5 iron 9 times out of ten? Its longer than any short iron. I fear my static and swingweights with the short irons may be a bit too much. My pw weighed in at 489 grams. Not sure where to go from here other than the feel approach like you did! If all else fails i may try 1/16 increments or going to a lighter shaft- im in kbs tour 130s right now. Dont mean to hijack your thread but it was a great read and im happy you found this zen!

 

My thinking is that your short end is longer than it should have been, but its easy to figure that out. Your set up started with the #4 as plus 2/8" try the "tape down" method on both your PW and your #4 iron, make both of them 0.25" shorter (with tape on the grip). 2/8" is equal to 1.5 SWP as drop, but dont add anything, start with them only lowering your hands 2/8"....i think your PW will be just fine, but your #4 might need some added weight if you go shorter..

 

3/8" has become some kind of "Custom Standard" for irons, but we have TONs of options, so in cases where we see that...aahhh if we make that club right, the others want be, then we should look at a different length between the clubs.

 

Since there is way to many options, ive made a small EXCEL VBA app where ive converted it all to the metric system (imperial is also displayed) so we can really fine tune this "haircut" so the whole set becomes perfect for both the longest and shortest club, WE DONT HAVE TO COMPROMISE , so here YOU are in charge, Excel does the math, so you can play around with all the options possible, also for club balance or resistance where there is 12 options from flat MOI to flat SW or 14 options total.

 

By using the tape down grip method, and head tuning on the shortest and longest club in the set, we dont have to think much about what slope we try, we simply have 2 clubs, each of them is a fitting object of its own for ALL specs, when this 2 clubs works as we want them...draw the slopes between them and you have all numbers for the others, thats the way we should do it, ALL tools is just helping hands, so play around with the numbers, but use real life testing to make decisions.

 

Download the NEW version (and ask what ever question about using it)

http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1751610-metric-irons-excel-vba-app/

 

Ive made 1 example, where your #4 is left alone at plus 0.25", and then ive altered the slope between clubs from 3/8" or 9.35 mm to 10.00 mm. This slight difference of "next to nothing" makes a slightly different and shorter short end vs now, where the #9 iron would be about 6/8" above std....its this kind of fine tune we can play around with so we get both ends perfect and all the others them the same.

 

 

We can have the differences in imperial as we like, here as /16

 

 

[Howard_Jones]

> @cardoustie said:

> Look at lie angles on the short irons ... flatten your p-wedge 2* and test

 

He seems to have a idea that Total weight is to high, and going 2* flat adds 0.5 SWP, so if resistance is to high now, from total weight or head weight, this would be the wrong direction since we both keep total weight the same, and add head weight resistance.

 

There is many opinions about it all, i prefer to deal with all specs one by one, and try to avoid using one parameter to fix another, like using play lengths to get head weight right, since i always put play lengths as the absolute most important club specs of them all, but there is cases you will have to do that if there is no options to lower head weight. Adding is always easy.

 

Then we have TOTAL WGT, it has #2 in importance, and its maybe the hardest of them all to fit correct.

 

Just look at how total wgt difference changes from 3 True Temper products.

 

Dynamic Gold S300 Parallel Descending

Dynamic Gold Taper Constant WGT

AMT White Ascending WGT

 

 

 

 

We should be happy for all the options we have, but they also indicate very strong that we are different, and for that reason we have different needs, and thats goes for ALL club parameter when we deep dive into it.

 

Check lie angle with the ball marker method, they should be "neutral" at impact, no matter club specs we use.

[Red4282]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > What a great thread! By the way thanks again for the help on the hybrid shaft. Reading your story reminded me a lot of my own. Im 37, played a little juco golf back in the day. Quit playing as well, although mine was for 10 years. Never shot 60, but i did shoot 63 once on my home course! As far as your build...i myself have attempted a similar build this last year, with some differences, and what i now realize may be some errors.

> >

> > Im 6’4” and 20 years ago i was fitted by ping at +1 over standard. I never was a fan of that build, long irons i always hit like crap, mid irons ok, and short irons pretty good. A few years later i bought a set that were standard and just started playing them, not thinking twice. My ball striking improved dramatically, but i would still say the long irons were a relative weakness compared to everything else.

> >

> > So this most recent build i decided to kind of combine both builds into one, and attempt a more moi matching build. I figured leave the long irons near standard, and build the length into the short irons, where i need the extra length the most(but still wont effect ball striking). I started with the 4 iron at +1/4 and worked up in 3/8 increments.

> > 4i- 38 3/4 +1/4

> > 5i- 38 3/8 +3/8

> > 6i - 38 +1/2

> > 7i- 37 5/8 +5/8

> > 8i- 37 1/4 +3/4

> > 9i- 36 7/8 +7/8

> > Pw 36 1/2 +1

> >

> > As far as lengths go i love it, but heres where i think this thread made me realize i need to redo some things. Im having issues getting the weight right. Since the pw is Going to have the highest swing-weight, i “blind” moi matched from the pw down. My swing-weight of the pw came in at d6. Unweighted my 4 iron came in at c7. Thats quite a gap to make up. I gradually added weight down the set, ending with 7 grams on my 4 iron to bring it to d1.

> >

> > Now heres where it gets interesting, and confusing to me. Im hitting my long irons better than i ever have in my whole life. The short irons are- well iffy. I don't hit them BAD, but my striking i feel isn't where it should be. A couple slightly thin and toe hits a round isn't uncommon. I would normally say ah the extra length.. but it doesnt make alot of sense to me. Why can i smoke a 5 iron 9 times out of ten? Its longer than any short iron. I fear my static and swingweights with the short irons may be a bit too much. My pw weighed in at 489 grams. Not sure where to go from here other than the feel approach like you did! If all else fails i may try 1/16 increments or going to a lighter shaft- im in kbs tour 130s right now. Dont mean to hijack your thread but it was a great read and im happy you found this zen!

>

> My thinking is that your short end is longer than it should have been, but its easy to figure that out. Your set up started with the #4 as plus 2/8" try the "tape down" method on both your PW and your #4 iron, make both of them 0.25" shorter (with tape on the grip). 2/8" is equal to 1.5 SWP as drop, but dont add anything, start with them only lowering your hands 2/8"....i think your PW will be just fine, but your #4 might need some added weight if you go shorter..

>

> 3/8" has become some kind of "Custom Standard" for irons, but we have TONs of options, so in cases where we see that...aahhh if we make that club right, the others want be, then we should look at a different length between the clubs.

>

> Since there is way to many options, ive made a small EXCEL VBA app where ive converted it all to the metric system (imperial is also displayed) so we can really fine tune this "haircut" so the whole set becomes perfect for both the longest and shortest club, WE DONT HAVE TO COMPROMISE , so here YOU are in charge, Excel does the math, so you can play around with all the options possible, also for club balance or resistance where there is 12 options from flat MOI to flat SW or 14 options total.

>

> By using the tape down grip method, and head tuning on the shortest and longest club in the set, we dont have to think much about what slope we try, we simply have 2 clubs, each of them is a fitting object of its own for ALL specs, when this 2 clubs works as we want them...draw the slopes between them and you have all numbers for the others, thats the way we should do it, ALL tools is just helping hands, so play around with the numbers, but use real life testing to make decisions.

>

> Download the NEW version (and ask what ever question about using it)

> http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/1751610-metric-irons-excel-vba-app/

>

> Ive made 1 example, where your #4 is left alone at plus 0.25", and then ive altered the slope between clubs from 3/8" or 9.35 mm to 10.00 mm. This slight difference of "next to nothing" makes a slightly different and shorter short end vs now, where the #9 iron would be about 6/8" above std....its this kind of fine tune we can play around with so we get both ends perfect and all the others them the same.

>

>

>

> We can have the differences in imperial as we like, here as /16

>

>

>

Thanks howard, after a conversation with mogc60 last night i pulled my spec sheet out and i think i found my mistake. My static weights from 7 iron to PW were fairly close. My pw was only 3 grams heavier than my nine. I think when i built the set, for some reason i wanted to keep the short iron swingweights more in line at d4-5 ish. And then start my progression down. I removed a few grams from my 7-9 irons, and made a few swings in the back yard. I could definitely feel the difference. Need to hit balls to confirm but i think im on the right track. Feel trumps trying to obtain a sw number. If this fails, i will revisit rebuilding trying to shorten the the short irons a bit.

 

Question- since we are talking moi, how much does a shaft change effect this? Im in kbs tour 130 now, but am intrigued by lighter options.

 

[Howard_Jones]

I find it easier to navigate in Total weight numbers than MOI, but the math to MOI is simple.

We need to know both actual weight, and actual balance point of both shafts, if we have that, we can do the math as both MOI as grams/cm2 or as SW values using a SW scale.

 

I advice all to go by "more or less" or "too little and too much" during testing until we have found our limits and by that can dial in our ideal range. Since the shaft options we have out there now have balance points all over the place, it has become a bit difficult to navigate in shafts weights, but as long as we go by what feels right and what works the best, we cant fail, so never mind what specs that is, they are for references or club repair only.

 

 

[Red4282]

Yea i guess it has to be trial by error when it comes to shaft weights. My static weights dont seem to be an issue until hole 16...on a hot day and im walking. Maybe i should just get in better golf shape. I was just curious because i play a 72 gram shaft in my driver, 80 gram shaft in my 3 wood, and 80g in hybrid—- and i hate the hybrid. It feels like im swinging a seniors club compared to the rest of my set. I would be afraid if a similar feeling with the irons, although i guess if the whole set is built that way you would in time get acclimated to the new feel..

[Howard_Jones]

> @Red4282 said:

> Yea i guess it has to be trial by error when it comes to shaft weights. My static weights dont seem to be an issue until hole 16...on a hot day and im walking. Maybe i should just get in better golf shape. I was just curious because i play a 72 gram shaft in my driver, 80 gram shaft in my 3 wood, and 80g in hybrid—- and i hate the hybrid. It feels like im swinging a seniors club compared to the rest of my set. I would be afraid if a similar feeling with the irons, although i guess if the whole set is built that way you would in time get acclimated to the new feel..

 

For shaft weight progression in the bag, we need to look at Grams pr inch, since both Woods and Hybrid vary on uncut play lenght, so the numbers we look at as grams is not directly compatible

 

 

As PROGRESSION i suggest we use 5 grams pr inch at the same uncut play lenght iin Woods, while Hybrids who looks like a extension of this slope from woods, has a higher weight in grams pr inch, and max 30 grams down as "label shaft weight" from irons. never mind head labels, its about play lenght differences to get feel of shaft weight matched. Numbers is "label shaft weight" Woods as 46.00" and Hybrids from 41"

 

 

 

[Red4282]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > Yea i guess it has to be trial by error when it comes to shaft weights. My static weights dont seem to be an issue until hole 16...on a hot day and im walking. Maybe i should just get in better golf shape. I was just curious because i play a 72 gram shaft in my driver, 80 gram shaft in my 3 wood, and 80g in hybrid—- and i hate the hybrid. It feels like im swinging a seniors club compared to the rest of my set. I would be afraid if a similar feeling with the irons, although i guess if the whole set is built that way you would in time get acclimated to the new feel..

>

> For shaft weight progression in the bag, we need to look at Grams pr inch, since both Woods and Hybrid vary on uncut play lenght, so the numbers we look at as grams is not directly compatible

>

>

>

> As PROGRESSION i suggest we use 5 grams pr inch at the same uncut play lenght iin Woods, while Hybrids who looks like a extension of this slope from woods, has a higher weight in grams pr inch, and max 30 grams down as "label shaft weight" from irons. never mind head labels, its about play lenght differences to get feel of shaft weight matched. Numbers is "label shaft weight" Woods as 46.00" and Hybrids from 41"

>

>

>

>

 

Thanks howard, Nice chart, it seems according to that i indeed need my 3hy at 95-100 gram range.

[mogc60]

Red4282, be sure and let us know if the weight bunching you found and removing a little weight helped your contact on your short irons. Interested to see the difference you felt