KBS Tour Stiff (120g) vs. KBS $ Taper (Soft-Stepped Stiff or R+)

[Tdsjfb]

I've played KBS Tour (Stiff) for 9 years in my Mizuno's. Honestly, I have zero complaints. All the characterizations are accurate - fly a little high(er), but they feel great. I'm in the process of looking at new (Mizuno) irons - actually waiting for the MP-20s - and am contemplating shaft options as many new iterations have been introduced.

 

Recognizing I'm older (59), I'm open to what the "numbers" portend as far as selecting an appropriate setup. I know for a fact, I can continue to play the KBS Tour in Stiff (SS w/ 6 iron 85ish). But the question is, what about the other KBS options? I'm definitely not interested in the C Tapers, but curious about the $ Taper. The reports are they're the love child of the Tour and C Taper offering better dispersion with great feel.

 

Any thoughts from those that have moved from the KBS Tours to $ Tapers? In the process, did you find that you needed to soft-step the (Stiff) $ Tapers or move to R+? From what I'm reading, I gather the $ Tapers might be a hair more stout than the Tours, correct?

 

I look forward to the feedback!

 

PS If a previous KBS Tour use wants to weigh in on the Modus 120 in stiff, I'm interested in that feedback as well.

 

 

 

[Tdsjfb]

> @Tdsjfb said:

> I've played KBS Tour (Stiff) for 9 years in my Mizuno's. Honestly, I have zero complaints. All the characterizations are accurate - fly a little high(er), but they feel great. I'm in the process of looking at new (Mizuno) irons - actually waiting for the MP-20s - and am contemplating shaft options as many new iterations have been introduced.

>

> Recognizing I'm older (59), I'm open to what the "numbers" portend as far as selecting an appropriate setup. I know for a fact, I can continue to play the KBS Tour in Stiff (SS w/ 6 iron 85ish). But the question is, what about the other KBS options? I'm definitely not interested in the C Tapers, but curious about the $ Taper. The reports are they're the love child of the Tour and C Taper offering better dispersion with great feel.

>

> Any thoughts from those that have moved from the KBS Tours to $ Tapers? In the process, did you find that you needed to soft-step the (Stiff) $ Tapers or move to R+? From what I'm reading, I gather the $ Tapers might be a hair more stout than the Tours, correct?

>

> I look forward to the feedback!

>

> PS If a previous KBS Tour use wants to weigh in on the Modus 120 in stiff, I'm interested in that feedback as well.

>

>

> Bueller?

 

 

[buckeyefl]

I just made the switch a couple of months ago with zero issues. The love child comment is probably about as accurate a description as you will get. I dont know that they are more stout but might FEEL very slightly that way. as I said the change was seamless.

[Tdsjfb]

> @buckeyefl said:

> I just made the switch a couple of months ago with zero issues. The love child comment is probably about as accurate a description as you will get. I dont know that they are more stout but might FEEL very slightly that way. as I said the change was seamless.

 

Thanks for that. I'm contemplating in this build - likely my last - a shaft that's a little softer than the KBS Tour (Stiff). I can hit it fine, but if I can get a tighter shaft in the S Taper, albeit slightly more firm (maybe), I'll probably soft-step the Stiff or go with R+.

[buckeyefl]

> @Tdsjfb said:

> > @buckeyefl said:

> > I just made the switch a couple of months ago with zero issues. The love child comment is probably about as accurate a description as you will get. I dont know that they are more stout but might FEEL very slightly that way. as I said the change was seamless.

>

> Thanks for that. I'm contemplating in this build - likely my last - a shaft that's a little softer than the KBS Tour (Stiff). I can hit it fine, but if I can get a tighter shaft in the S Taper, albeit slightly more firm (maybe), I'll probably soft-step the Stiff or go with R+.

 

Sounds like exactly what you are looking for.

[Waterboy]

I’m in the same boat as you.

 

I soft stepped the stiff $taper. I like the weight but needed something a touch softer to get my numbers up. I’d probably get the same numbers with the r+ though.

 

I came from modus 120 to the $taper and prefer the kbs much more. I feel like the $ is a little “tighter?” If that makes sense.

 

I’ve used them in mp-18 and apex pro now.

[Tdsjfb]

> @Waterboy said:

> I’m in the same boat as you.

>

> I soft stepped the stiff $taper. I like the weight but needed something a touch softer to get my numbers up. I’d probably get the same numbers with the r+ though.

>

> I came from modus 120 to the $taper and prefer the kbs much more. I feel like the $ is a little “tighter?” If that makes sense.

>

> I’ve used them in mp-18 and apex pro now.

 

It does make sense. I wonder how much of a trajectory difference giving up 5 grams of weight going to the S Taper (R+) from Tour Stiff - I'm guessing not much. If I can get a more piercing ball flight with the S Taper (R+) compared to the Tour Stiff and have equal or less negative (vibration) feedback, I'll be pleased.

 

 

[buckeyefl]

My back was finally to the point that I could get out today and I used my set with the $-tapers and I can see an ever so slight lower trajectory for sure. I have two identical sets, one with tours and one with $ so one of these days Im going to do a side by side.

[Howard_Jones]

> @Tdsjfb said:

> I've played KBS Tour (Stiff) for 9 years in my Mizuno's. Honestly, I have zero complaints. All the characterizations are accurate - fly a little high(er), but they feel great. I'm in the process of looking at new (Mizuno) irons - actually waiting for the MP-20s - and am contemplating shaft options as many new iterations have been introduced.

>

> Recognizing I'm older (59), I'm open to what the "numbers" portend as far as selecting an appropriate setup. I know for a fact, I can continue to play the KBS Tour in Stiff (SS w/ 6 iron 85ish). But the question is, what about the other KBS options? I'm definitely not interested in the C Tapers, but curious about the $ Taper. The reports are they're the love child of the Tour and C Taper offering better dispersion with great feel.

>

> Any thoughts from those that have moved from the KBS Tours to $ Tapers? In the process, did you find that you needed to soft-step the (Stiff) $ Tapers or move to R+? From what I'm reading, I gather the $ Tapers might be a hair more stout than the Tours, correct?

>

> I look forward to the feedback!

>

> PS If a previous KBS Tour use wants to weigh in on the Modus 120 in stiff, I'm interested in that feedback as well.

>

>

>

 

Just a short input about WEIGHT and how it moves when we soft step or hard step.

Numbers move, so we can no longer consider official weight to be right, we have to convert them, and then they look like this example. For each step we either loose or add weight equal to 0.5", and at 2x we add or loose the weight equal to 1.0"

 

 

[buckeyefl]

> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Tdsjfb said:

> > I've played KBS Tour (Stiff) for 9 years in my Mizuno's. Honestly, I have zero complaints. All the characterizations are accurate - fly a little high(er), but they feel great. I'm in the process of looking at new (Mizuno) irons - actually waiting for the MP-20s - and am contemplating shaft options as many new iterations have been introduced.

> >

> > Recognizing I'm older (59), I'm open to what the "numbers" portend as far as selecting an appropriate setup. I know for a fact, I can continue to play the KBS Tour in Stiff (SS w/ 6 iron 85ish). But the question is, what about the other KBS options? I'm definitely not interested in the C Tapers, but curious about the $ Taper. The reports are they're the love child of the Tour and C Taper offering better dispersion with great feel.

> >

> > Any thoughts from those that have moved from the KBS Tours to $ Tapers? In the process, did you find that you needed to soft-step the (Stiff) $ Tapers or move to R+? From what I'm reading, I gather the $ Tapers might be a hair more stout than the Tours, correct?

> >

> > I look forward to the feedback!

> >

> > PS If a previous KBS Tour use wants to weigh in on the Modus 120 in stiff, I'm interested in that feedback as well.

> >

> >

> >

>

> Just a short input about WEIGHT and how it moves when we soft step or hard step.

> Numbers move, so we can no longer consider official weight to be right, we have to convert them, and then they look like this example. For each step we either loose or add weight equal to 0.5", and at 2x we add or loose the weight equal to 1.0"

>

>

>

 

That will be very helpful to a lot of people.

[Tdsjfb]

I'm still confused about the stiffness (and feedback) profile of KBS Tour vs. S Taper. I've checked all the specs (& exhibits) and it appears the Tours provide slightly more torque than the S Taper, yet the S Tapers provide better dispersion and equal (soft) feeling? I was under the impression you were giving up (a small amount of soft feel) with the S Tapers for the dispersion improvement?

[milesnotsmiles]

I switched to Tour's from C tapers. The C tapers flew a little low for me, and had no feel. The added control and feel from the tours allow me to keep it down easier when needed, and prefer the very high normal flight. I tried the $ taper, for me had the same dead feel that I didn't like about the c tapers... If I have trouble keeping the tours down in the long run may return to DG's after a 15 year break..

[Tdsjfb]

So this is my dilemma - I want the feel/feedback of the Tours (120), but want a more penetrating flight. Will I get that with either the S Tapers in R+ (or Stiff Soft Stepped) or Tour V (110 Stiff)? I'm getting a lot of conflicting feedback from the professionals!

To be clear, in order of priority (with my aging frame): 1) Feel 2) Trajectory 3) Dispersion

 

[RichieHunt]

I used the KBS Tours about 6 years ago going from the X to the $ Taper S+.

 

Personally, I don't bother with hard-stepping and soft stepping. As Wishon has stated, it really has no effect or the stiffness.

 

The $ Tapers launch a hair lower, but noticeably spin less. They feel fantastic.

 

I think you'll probably be fine going to the $ Taper in the same flex.

 

 

 

 

RH

[mortimer]

Same boat as the OP. Considering switching to MP-20s (HMB MMC). 53 YO 86/88 6iron ss. I like everything about KBS Tours except the counterbalancing. I had to add a lot of tip/tape weight on the heads to bring swingweights up to D3/3.5 as it is my preference. This makes my clubs 10/15 grs heavier overall. Due to aging I am looking for something similar in performance to my current shafts (not fimer for sure) and lighter overall club weight (not shafts as my swing gets out of sync easily with lighter shafts). Does anyone know if $ Tapers are also counterbalanced? My thinking is that if not, maybe $ Tapers SS1 and less or no tip weighting required could result in a 12/17gr reduction overall. Any input will be appreciated

[mortimer]

I forgot to answer OPs question about KBS Tour / Modus 120 comparisson as I have tested Modus 120 extensively. To me two completly different profiles. Never got along with the modus. Not able to swing it consistently. On good swings flight was a touch flatter than Tours and spin was noticebly lower. Hope it helps

[Howard_Jones]

> @Tdsjfb said:

> So this is my dilemma - I want the feel/feedback of the Tours (120), but want a more penetrating flight. Will I get that with either the S Tapers in R+ (or Stiff Soft Stepped) or Tour V (110 Stiff)? I'm getting a lot of conflicting feedback from the professionals!

> To be clear, in order of priority (with my aging frame): 1) Feel 2) Trajectory 3) Dispersion

>

 

I know its 30 days since you ask, but anyway....

If you already play KBS Tour, and is happy for feel and dispersion, but want a lower more penetration flight, its simple....tweak lofts stronger

 

Many players dont understand that ball flight is a question of loft at impact, so if the shafts you play now add to much dynamic loft, flight become higher than you like. For Bounce and turf interaction, it does not matter if the head is delivered to the ball with less loft from a shaft, or from bending since we cant split loft and bounce, they are forever connected. So, its exactly the same that happens, less loft = less bounce no matter how that happen, by a shaft that bend less forward, or by loft tweak in a bending machine.

 

We can hardly ever find a shaft that makes it all for us, so if weight, feel and dispersion is good, let static lofts take care of ball flight, thats a loft issue anyway and the reason for why we have heads we can tweak both stronger and weaker in the first place.

 

Tiger is a school example, he plays DG X100, so we might get the idea that he want Low launch since DG X100 is a low launch profile, but thats not the case for him, he plays them because weight, feel and dispersion is good, and with lofts that average 2* weak to get HIGH launch. If he tried that with a shaft change, Weight, Feel or Dispersion might not be as wanted anymore.

 

So...tweak lofts stronger to get the ball flight you want.

[Howard_Jones]

> @RichieHunt said:

> I used the KBS Tours about 6 years ago going from the X to the $ Taper S+.

>

> Personally, I don't bother with hard-stepping and soft stepping. As Wishon has stated, it really has no effect or the stiffness.

>

> The $ Tapers launch a hair lower, but noticeably spin less. They feel fantastic.

>

> I think you'll probably be fine going to the $ Taper in the same flex.

>

>

>

>

> RH

 

Tom never said that....(no effect)

 

The effect for ball flight is SMALL, but present for all players with a swing where shaft profiles makes a difference in the first place

Effect of hard or soft stepping is "progressive" so SS2 has more than the double effect vs SS1

Shaft sets like RIFLE FCM Flighted (versions before 2012), and Project X flighted is made by mixing shaft blanks, and as example Rifle FCM 6.0 Flighed is made this way

 

- LONG end High launch shafts is 6.5 SS1 plus 3/16 longer tip

- MID shafts is 6.0 strait in

- SHORT end Low launch shafts is hard stepped 5.5 plus 3/16 more tip trim

 

Long irons will play to FCM 6.0 but with higher launch than standard 6.0 strait in.

Short end will also play to FCM 6.0, but with lower launch than standard 6.0 strait in.

 

That means both hard and soft stepping once has effect, even if its small, but its large enough to make a set flighted like this, and many thousand players loved this sets for that reason, they delivered as expected with high launch long end, and lower launch short end.

[Tdsjfb]

On 7/24/2019 at 11:59 AM, Howard_Jones said:

> @Tdsjfb said:

> I've played KBS Tour (Stiff) for 9 years in my Mizuno's. Honestly, I have zero complaints. All the characterizations are accurate - fly a little high(er), but they feel great. I'm in the process of looking at new (Mizuno) irons - actually waiting for the MP-20s - and am contemplating shaft options as many new iterations have been introduced.

>

> Recognizing I'm older (59), I'm open to what the "numbers" portend as far as selecting an appropriate setup. I know for a fact, I can continue to play the KBS Tour in Stiff (SS w/ 6 iron 85ish). But the question is, what about the other KBS options? I'm definitely not interested in the C Tapers, but curious about the $ Taper. The reports are they're the love child of the Tour and C Taper offering better dispersion with great feel.

>

> Any thoughts from those that have moved from the KBS Tours to $ Tapers? In the process, did you find that you needed to soft-step the (Stiff) $ Tapers or move to R+? From what I'm reading, I gather the $ Tapers might be a hair more stout than the Tours, correct?

>

> I look forward to the feedback!

>

> PS If a previous KBS Tour use wants to weigh in on the Modus 120 in stiff, I'm interested in that feedback as well.

>

>

>

 

Just a short input about WEIGHT and how it moves when we soft step or hard step.

Numbers move, so we can no longer consider official weight to be right, we have to convert them, and then they look like this example. For each step we either loose or add weight equal to 0.5", and at 2x we add or loose the weight equal to 1.0"

 

 

I'm currently playing the S Taper 120 (SS 1x). The performance has been excellent.

 

I've ordered the S Taper 115 (R+) as an experiment (straight in) and it appears the weight difference among the two is only 3.5 grams (see above)? Is the 115 (R+) profile compared to the 120 (S) roughly the same such that the characteristics should be very close? (Yet 3.5 grams lighter on the R+). I did read in a few threads some thought the 115 R+ (straight in) felt stiffer than the 120 S (SS 1X) - and that didn't make any sense to me?

Edited August 21, 2021 by Tdsjfb

[Stuart_G]

15 hours ago, Tdsjfb said:

Is the 115 (R+) profile compared to the 120 (S) roughly the same such that the characteristics should be very close? (Yet 3.5 grams lighter on the R+). I did read in a few threads some thought the 115 R+ (straight in) felt stiffer than the 120 S (SS 1X) - and that didn't make any sense to me?

 

As you'd expect with a flex change, the profile is a little softer more than what normally would be attributed to the single soft step.   Can't speek in any detail to what you might have read, but feel can be very subjective and also can depend on aspects of the build that can change w/o the person testing the club actually knowing about it.  e.g. head weight, head BBGM, playing length, and even something as small as a grip size change can influence the swing and how stiff the shaft might feel to any individual.   That's why second hand comparisons are rarely very reliable, feel is just too subjective to transfer well between different individuals.

 

 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by Stuart_G

[Tdsjfb]

Thanks for taking the time to respond. A minor note, and it may have no relevance, the shafts are S Tapers, not C Tapers. Also, how would that chart and readings change (CPMs?) if were comparing the R+ to the S (SS1x)?

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, Tdsjfb said:

Thanks for taking the time to respond. A minor note, and it may have no relevance, the shafts are S Tapers, not C Tapers. Also, how would that chart and readings change (CPMs?) if were comparing the R+ to the S (SS1x)?

 

Sorry.  Actually I thought I was putting up the numbers for the KBS Tour S and R+  - the c-taper numbers were a mistake.  But regardless, I don't have the numbers for the S-tapers.   

 

It also means I may have mistaken your original question.  Comparing stiffness for shafts from different models can be much more difficult than comparing a change in flex within the same model without the full profile data AND an understanding of ones particular sensitivities to stiffness in different parts of the shafts.   Butt frequency alone wont really tell us anything useful.

[justcallmemoses]

Are KBS $ Taper counterbalanced?

[ColumK]

On 8/30/2019 at 3:10 AM, RichieHunt said:

I used the KBS Tours about 6 years ago going from the X to the $ Taper S+.

 

Personally, I don't bother with hard-stepping and soft stepping. As Wishon has stated, it really has no effect or the stiffness.

 

The $ Tapers launch a hair lower, but noticeably spin less. They feel fantastic.

 

I think you'll probably be fine going to the $ Taper in the same flex.

 

 

 

 

RH

I am in similar position to the OP. Just returned to gold after 10 years. Have Ping i15's with KBS Tours S flex. I like these shafts but I hit these irons too high with more spin than necessary. Thinking of getting new irons, probably JPX 921 forged, and was considering the KBS $ in s flex to lower launch, and a small reduction of spun would be good, but don't want very low spinning iron shots. Reading through this I am now thinking perhaps I could stay with KBS Tours but go to an X flex. This could lower the launch angle and spin a little? What are your thoughts 

[Stuart_G]

11 hours ago, ColumK said:

 What are your thoughts 

 

That chasing launch and spin numbers with shaft selection can frequently turn into a wild goose chase.    Shaft should be chosen based on dispersion/consistency of the results and feel.   If you want to tweak the launch a little, just go get the lofts bent a bit stronger.

[JD3]

I love KBS Tour ball flight but just find them lacking somewhat in stoutness .... I just dont have confidence to really go after one. I experimented with S taper earlier this year thinking I could get best of both. Ended up hating them...ball flight is somewhat lower due to lower initial launch, which pretty much takes away whats good about Tours. Spin also dropped off too much and they're too hard to make curve, I lost my high draw to a weird looking straight push. Lastly  the kick point is very high and they feel ultra stiff. I'll never touch that shaft again. Imo if you love the tours (or any shaft) just stick with it. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by JD3

[Tdsjfb]

7 hours ago, JD3 said:

I love KBS Tour ball flight but just find them lacking somewhat in stoutness .... I just dont have confidence to really go after one. I experimented with S taper earlier this year thinking I could get best of both. Ended up hating them...ball flight is somewhat lower due to lower initial launch, which pretty much takes away whats good about Tours. Spin also dropped off too much and they're too hard to make curve, I lost my high draw to a weird looking straight push. Lastly  the kick point is very high and they feel ultra stiff. I'll never touch that shaft again. Imo if you love the tours (or any shaft) just stick with it. 

I loved, yet left the Tours for the same reason - same reason everyone leaves the Tours. $ Tapers have been great. Not too stout, feel great and just go straight with much more boring flight which is helpful as I'm typically playing in 10 MPH + wind.

[Tdsjfb]

I'm looking to build some Vokey wedges with the S Tapers (115g R+) 9 iron shafts. I was surprised when I weighed the 2 raw 9 iron shafts (that I ordered directly from KBS) that they were 116.4 grams + 116.9 grams. Not that I care about a .5 gram difference, but shouldn't the tolerances be tighter, AND why are they not 115g - what am I missing?

[Howard_Jones]

1 minute ago, Tdsjfb said:

I'm looking to build some Vokey wedges with the S Tapers (115g R+) 9 iron shafts. I was surprised when I weighed the 2 raw 9 iron shafts (that I ordered directly from KBS) that they were 116.4 grams + 116.9 grams. Not that I care about a .5 gram difference, but shouldn't the tolerances be tighter, AND why are they not 115g - what am I missing?

When True Temper started GOLD sorting of the classic Dynamic shaft in 1980, the tolerance was "unheard" with only plus minus 1.5 grams. Thats how S200 and S400 saw the day of light, since before 1980, a set of DYNAMIC could have shafts that was variable from 126 (the light end of S200)  to 134 grams (the high end of S400)

Later TT introduced a even tighter tolerance on the same old Dynamic shaft, this time called "Tour Issue" with a tolerance of only plus minus 0.5 grams.

Its not many shaft models out there who is "better" or even "on level with" the now 41 year old GOLD sorting standard, so what you see is simply "tolerances from production", and you will have to live with that, unless you can get behind the desk and weight sort out the shafts you want.

[Desh]

On 8/25/2021 at 9:31 PM, JD3 said:

I love KBS Tour ball flight but just find them lacking somewhat in stoutness .... I just dont have confidence to really go after one. I experimented with S taper earlier this year thinking I could get best of both. Ended up hating them...ball flight is somewhat lower due to lower initial launch, which pretty much takes away whats good about Tours. Spin also dropped off too much and they're too hard to make curve, I lost my high draw to a weird looking straight push. Lastly  the kick point is very high and they feel ultra stiff. I'll never touch that shaft again. Imo if you love the tours (or any shaft) just stick with it. 

 

What shafts did you end going with? I had the same experience. Played DG S300s for years with MP-57s. Updated the set to JPX 921 Tours and $ Taper 120s....but it is a lot harder to shape the ball. The flight is too straight.