Dealing with slow groups on the golf course

[MountainKing]

> @Bonneville85308 said:

> I like this sign.

>

>

Awesome sign

[Marshal Jim]

On 7/27/2019 at 9:39 PM, billh17 said:

No, i will not call the marshall/range rat/so called pro shop/ or any other name they come up with for the guys who are there to get free golf. Most of them are not going to say anything worth while to anyone so why bother?

Wow!  & to think that I've spent the last 15 years trying to keep a good pace for a******* like you.

 

No offense.

[Marshal Jim]

Seriously, with so many people on Internet golf forums who know how to resolve pace problems, it  makes me wonder why so many courses have pace problems.

 

Having worked at it for 15 years, I know what the main reason is.

 

Golfers.

 

😷

[billh17]

19 hours ago, Marshal Jim said:

Wow!  & to think that I've spent the last 15 years trying to keep a good pace for a******* like you.

 

No offense.

Seriously, Marshall Jim...try reading my complete post, instead of trying to make yourself sound good.

You will notice that we are probably in complete agreement reference pace of play.  Hope you have a great day and

can find other two year old posts to build your post count in....because you figure no one will notice. OOPS....the darn

site lets a person know when someone mentions them...sorry....you been caught !

[Lasorcier]

Ours has carts that warn you when you get too close to greens or are in an otherwise restricted area.  They shut down automatically when you enter the area.  It is GPS regulated.  The only thing you can do is go in reverse at a really slow pace along the path you took in to that spot.  If there is slow play, the marshall can shut the offending cart / offending slow players' cart off from the ipad they have in their cart.  Then the players have to hoof it back to the clubhouse.  Play has been much faster since those new carts came in.  Average round is 4-ish, give or take 15 minutes.

 

I have not seen it for slow play.  I have however seen it for drunkeness.  Saw 4 dudes walking up the 1st hole carrying their gear.  Had no idea why until the marshall told us there were many complaints about loud music/drunkeness/slow play/inconsideration for the course and other players, and their cart was bricked by the front desk staff.

[Marshal Jim]

On 5/30/2021 at 7:53 AM, billh17 said:

Seriously, Marshall Jim...try reading my complete post, instead of trying to make yourself sound good.

You will notice that we are probably in complete agreement reference pace of play.  Hope you have a great day and

can find other two year old posts to build your post count in....because you figure no one will notice. OOPS....the darn

site lets a person know when someone mentions them...sorry....you been caught !

🤣

[Marshal Jim]

15 hours ago, Lasorcier said:

Ours has carts that warn you when you get too close to greens or are in an otherwise restricted area.  They shut down automatically when you enter the area.  It is GPS regulated.  The only thing you can do is go in reverse at a really slow pace along the path you took in to that spot.  If there is slow play, the marshall can shut the offending cart / offending slow players' cart off from the ipad they have in their cart.  Then the players have to hoof it back to the clubhouse.  Play has been much faster since those new carts came in.  Average round is 4-ish, give or take 15 minutes.

 

I have not seen it for slow play.  I have however seen it for drunkeness.  Saw 4 dudes walking up the 1st hole carrying their gear.  Had no idea why until the marshall told us there were many complaints about loud music/drunkeness/slow play/inconsideration for the course and other players, and their cart was bricked by the front desk staff.

 

Kinda funny, my Uncle used to marshal in our resort area, and I was to take over when he retired.  He died in February, 2007, and when I went in, the Pro said, "We have installed GPS, so can see everything from the Pro Shop.  So, we don't have marshals any more.  If you'd like a regular Player Services job, you can do that."

 

Well, now they have GPS and marshals, so GPS is not an end-all.

 

I do like the fact that you can put the GPS in "Marshal Mode," so you can show slow groups the gap in front of them.  And, you can go right to the slow group without having to look for them.

 

That does not change the fact that groups who choose to be inconsiderate of all the golfers behind them normally still will be.

 

Where I've been at since 2009, another highly-rated course in the same tourist area, does not have GPS.  Those customers who look for something to whine about, whine about that.  Most are like me, though, and don't need an exact yardage.  Many/most golfers just look at their wrist or their smart phone.  Sprinkler heads are marked and we have a 150 pole.

 

I've been playing serious, somewhat competitive, since high school, 50+ years, and don't recall ever asking for a yardage.

 

The course I'm at now was built as a tribute course to a PGA player, and is way more difficult than other courses in the area, so we get golfers who are biting off more than you can chew.  It's an older-person tourist area, but it's not Florida golf, flat, and where you step out of the cart, hit, get back in the cart, step out of the cart, hit, get back in the cart . . . . . 

 

You have to be somewhat ambulatory.

 

Slow pace is a delicate, public relations issue, and our owners are reluctant to kick anyone off.  99% of our reviews are extremely positive, despite an occasional 5-hour round day.  Those occur when it's solid from 7:00 AM and mid-afternoon, so "playing through" is not a viable option.  When the slow group won't change their habits, the marshal becomes a PR agent for the course, apologizing for slow play to everyone behind them.

 

The price of a round and level of expectation are big factors, too.

 

Frankly, as much time as tour players commensurate over every shot, it's amazing they can play in 4 1/2 hours.  

Edited May 31, 2021 by Marshal Jim

[Marshal Jim]

Another thing that's kinda funny, and not just here but on other golf forums, too, is that when someone wants ideas about how to deal with slow play, you would think that someone who's done it for 15 years would be who you'd want to hear from.

 

But, that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

I realize I'm new here, and everyone Internet Forum has the normal cast of regulars.

 

So be it.

 

Here's my last post on a cart maintenance thread I started in 2009:

 

https://www.buggiesgonewild.com/showthread.php?p=1826526#post1826526

[rp4golf]

On 7/27/2019 at 8:39 PM, billh17 said:

To be honest, I am lucky due to courses around here

seldom being crowded,and i have only had one group refuse a request to play thru. I went thru anyway.

So your way of handling things is to bulldog your way through the group in front of you? 🤣

Yeah, even in some alternative universe of goattrack muni-playing that ain't happening. ...sorry....you been caught !

[cardoustie]

the best courses monitor pace of play thru 3 or 4 holes ... and again after 9

 

Guy tells you on 10 tee that the pace is 2:05 for 9 holes, speed it up, everyone that is a real golfer does exactly that

 

Only the yahoos don't get it

[jvincent]

There was a course in town here that for the first 2 (?) years they were open had a strict pace of play policy that they actually enforced. IIRC you got a couple of warnings and didn't get back on pace they kicked you off and gave you some kind of voucher.

 

It was glorious. Guaranteed 4-hour round max. And this was on a course with very heavy fescue lining the fairways and fast undulating greens.

 

Unfortunately they dropped the policy but still had a pretty good marshalling crew so while it did get a little slower it was never truly terrible.

[Marshal Jim]

4 hours ago, cardoustie said:

Guy tells you on 10 tee that the pace is 2:05 for 9 holes, speed it up, everyone that is a real golfer does exactly that

 

Only the yahoos don't get it

On a busy day, if that's what I was telling everyone on the 10th tee, I'd be tickled pink!!!!!

 

&, it is more than yahoos who don't get it, it is those who know it all, too.  Folks who think they know it all annoy those of us who do.  😷

[Marshal Jim]

On 5/31/2021 at 8:51 AM, cardoustie said:

the best courses monitor pace of play thru 3 or 4 holes ... and again after 9

Maximum pace at my course is totally second nature to me.  It was built as a championship, PGA-caliber course, with each of the first four sets of four holes having a Par 3, a Par 5, and two Par fours.  The Par 3s are paced at 12 minutes, the Par 4s at 15 minutes, and the Par 5s at 18 minutes.  So that's an hour for each of the first four sets of four holes.  17 and 18 are Par 4s, 15 minutes each, so that's 4 1/2 hours.

 

So, when it comes to marshalling, I don't even have to think twice because it's so automatic.  If a group is not doing 4 holes an hour, anywhere on the course, they're behind pace.

 

Knowing who's behind pace is the easy part.

 

So, going by your thoughts, I pay close attention to 4 Green/5 Tee.  But, just because I can see an obvious problem doesn't mean I can solve it.

 

Oh, and as for this being an "old" thread, pace of play will never not be a problem.

- - - - - - -

Just to make the point that it's not always the "Yahoos" who screw up Pace, a couple weeks ago the Pro at another course in the area had a foursome the second tee time of the day at our course (comped, of course, as is the local custom).  When he came off the ninth fairway, I said to him, "You guys are the lead dogs, and you're on a five hour pace.  I designate you to get your group back on pace."

 

He said, "No, (local dignitary) is out in front of us."

 

I said, "No, their group is in the clubhouse, already finished."

 

I reported that to our Pro and GM.  I told them when that group got to 18.  They finished in 5 hours 15 minutes.

 

If I/we went to his course (where I am also a paid member), and stuck a 5-hour pace on them first thing of the day, he would have raised Holy Heck.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Marshal Jim

[Mr. Bean]

47 minutes ago, Marshal Jim said:

Maximum pace at my course is totally second nature to me.  It was built as a championship, PGA-caliber course, with each of the first four sets of four holes having a Par 3, a Par 5, and two Par fours.  The Par 3 are paced at 12 minutes, the Par 4s AT 15 minutes, and the Par 5s at 18 minutes. 

 

Just out of curiosity, what are the starting intervals on your course?

[billh17]

8 hours ago, rp4golf said:

So your way of handling things is to bulldog your way through the group in front of you? 🤣

Yeah, even in some alternative universe of goattrack muni-playing that ain't happening. ...sorry....you been caught !

lol  another person that cannot read and comprehend a full post...sad that you have to mis-quote someone to try to make yourself look good. No one ,anywhere, said anything about bullying thru, except you. I simply said I went thru anyway. I did it by skipping a hole and problem solved. Thats not too difficult for you to understand, is it ?You guys are actually the only two people i have blocked in  8 years on this site, The way you mis-quote lets me know i really will have no other conversations with you.

Edited May 31, 2021 by billh17

[Fairway14]

If there is a hole open ahead the offending group should step aside and let subsequent group (s) play thru.

If the offending group does not want to let others play thru they should pick up their golf balls and get back in position behind the group ahead of them.

[rp4golf]

2 hours ago, billh17 said:

lol  another person that cannot read and comprehend a full post...sad that you have to mis-quote someone to try to make yourself look good. No one ,anywhere, said anything about bullying thru, except you. I simply said I went thru anyway. I did it by skipping a hole and problem solved. Thats not too difficult for you to understand, is it ?You guys are actually the only two people i have blocked in  8 years on this site, The way you mis-quote lets me know i really will have no other conversations with you.

So you lied. Got it. 🤣
 

Edited June 1, 2021 by rp4golf

[llewol007]

Acting as a Ranger or Marshal, I would head to said slow group and let them know that there are 5 groups held up by them. Depending on how far behind they are, I would either say pick up your golf balls and move to the next hole or, let them know that they are expected to catch up to the group they are following within the next 1 or two holes or be asked to again pick up their ball and catch up. 

[A.Princey]

On 7/28/2019 at 9:28 AM, om18v said:

Here is something I don't see mentioned often. Slow play due to the cart girl. I have witnessed minutes wasted with a foursome getting drinks or old guys (and young drunk guys) flirting. If they see the cart girl 2 to 3 times on the course we could potentially be talking over 10 minutes or more. There have been many posts over the years about wasting seconds standing over the ball and then extrapolating that into long combined times over the course of 18 holes. Those minutes add up quicker than seconds. Bring along a bottle of water and get rid of cart girl.

Yes, this exactly. If you’re two decades older than them, piss off. She doesn’t give two craps about you or your group. 

[Marshal Jim]

Al Gore's first rule when he started his Internet.

 

1.  Be rude to new people.

 

😷

[Marshal Jim]

After all these years dealing with this issue, it just occurred to me that it's only a problem when a course is too busy.  When it's not busy, when there's gaps off the first tee, fast groups can play through slow groups and slow groups can play at their pace, and everyone goes home happy.

 

When it's busy, and there's no gaps, everyone has to play at the same pace, the pace of the slowest group.

[cval]

As I believe Mr. Bean was alluding to it is not always about slow players but to many people on the course. When Covid made courses spread out Tee times there was very rarely a pace of play issue.  Single carts sped things up dramatically as well. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by cval

[Mr. Bean]

32 minutes ago, cval said:

As I believe Mr. Bean was alluding to it is not always about slow players but to many people on the course. When Covid made courses spread out Tee times there was very rarely a pace of play issue.  Single carts sped things up dramatically as well. 

 

Funny you should have mentioned that.

 

Last year our club changed it to twosomes with 8 minute intervals. Very smooth play and at least an hour faster than the norm 10 minutes with foursomes. Later in the summer it was gradually changed into the old system but it was remarkable to see how quickly twosomes play compared to foursomes.

[Marshal Jim]

21 hours ago, cval said:

 . . . it is not always about slow players but to many people on the course. 

That's what I was saying, too.

 

You never know how a day is going to go.  It's been raining and yesterday it was cart path only.  We had rounds as quick as 3-Hours, and as long as 4:15.  Early on it was gappy, so I told the slower groups to let the faster ones through and I told the faster ones not to be afraid to ask to play through.

 

Everyone was happy, even the 2-somes and singles that got mixed in.

 

So, another lesson . . . The best scenario is players being able to play at their pace (not that a quick pace is always best).

[tatertot]

On 6/1/2021 at 5:49 PM, Marshal Jim said:

After all these years dealing with this issue, it just occurred to me that it's only a problem when a course is too busy.  When it's not busy, when there's gaps off the first tee, fast groups can play through slow groups and slow groups can play at their pace, and everyone goes home happy.

 

When it's busy, and there's no gaps, everyone has to play at the same pace, the pace of the slowest group.

Not always ... 2-some walking the other day, got stuck behind a 5-some riding and followed them all the way around the back nine waiting on every tee box despite wide open course ahead of them. We had a 3-some and another 2-some backed-up behind up. Joined them on the par 3 tee boxes. Still no play through. We play 18 in 3 hours ... back 9 was 2 hours and 15 minutes ... some riding groups refuse to let walkers through no matter what ... and our course does not have marshals on weekdays.

[Marshal Jim]

On 5/31/2021 at 1:20 PM, Marshal Jim said:

Just to make the point that it's not always the "Yahoos" who screw up Pace, a couple weeks ago the Pro at another course in the area had a foursome the second tee time of the day at our course (comped, of course, as is the local custom).  When he came off the ninth fairway, I said to him, "You guys are the lead dogs, and you're on a five hour pace.  I designate you to get your group back on pace."

 

He said, "No, (local dignitary) is out in front of us."

 

I said, "No, their group is in the clubhouse, already finished."

 

I reported that to our Pro and GM.  I told them when that group got to 18.  They finished in 5 hours 15 minutes.

 

If I/we went to his course (where I am also a paid member), and stuck a 5-hour pace on them first thing of the day, he would have raised Holy Heck.

Funny, here's reviews from that Pro's course:

 

There was one that complained about the marshal coming into the clubhouse when a multi-foursome group stopped for a snack at the turn, and chewed them out in front of everyone, then there were these:

 

Had 3 sum finished front 9 in 1 1/2 hours. On 12th hole caught group ahead of us. It took 3 1/4 hours to finish the back 9. Ruined what would have been a great day of golf on a great course. Had to wait 10 to 15 min. between each shot..

- - - - -- -

Terrible experience

1st and last time playing this course Greens were in terrible shape. Pace of play worst I've ever dealt with. Wasn't that busy but some home owner members. They treated it like social hour. Took 5 to 10 minutes between shots. No one would let you play through. Terrible experience. By 13th hole had decided would never play this course again. Will never recommend it either

- - - - - - 

The pace of play was REAL SLOW ALL DAY. No marshall to speed up play is crazy.

The pace of play was awful. 5 hours for a short course like this is not acceptable. The guy who was behind the counter was not friendly at all. There wasn't a marshall to speed the slow fools up. The greens were below average. Very nice lay out of course. Very pretty holes.

[Marshal Jim]

14 minutes ago, tatertot said:

Not always ... 2-some walking the other day, got stuck behind a 5-some riding and followed them all the way around the back nine waiting on every tee box despite wide open course ahead of them. We had a 3-some and another 2-some backed-up behind up. Joined them on the par 3 tee boxes. Still no play through. We play 18 in 3 hours ... back 9 was 2 hours and 15 minutes ... some riding groups refuse to let walkers through no matter what ... and our course does not have marshals on weekdays.

1. So, no marshal that day, I assume?

2.  How firmly did you ask to play through?

3.  Was it the type of course where you could see several holes in front of the "slow" group, or just right in front of them?

4.  Could you/did you call the Pro Shop?

5.  Did you consider just walking past them, skipping a hole?  Seems like the would be better than fuming for 2 1/2 hours.

 

It sounds like the course might have been open enough for you to play your pace, and the other group to play their pace, and have everyone be happy.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Marshal Jim

[tatertot]

11 minutes ago, Marshal Jim said:

1. So, no marshal that day, I assume?

2.  How firmly did you ask to play through?

3.  Was it the type of course where you could see several holes in front of the "slow" group, or just right in front of them?

4.  Could you/did you call the Pro Shop?

5.  Did you consider just walking past them, skipping a hole?  Seems like the would be better than fuming for 2 1/2 hours.

 

It sounds like the course might have been open enough for you to play your pace, and the other group to play their pace, and have everyone be happy.

1. Nope

2. We did not press the issue

3. At one point, the course makes a turn, and we could see 2 full holes and a 3rd tee ... all clear

4. This could have been the solution ... neither of us had a phone, as we don't like brining them to the course

5. Would have been a long walk, and we were having a pretty good match and didn't really want to skip a hole. I mean, we were playing golf, it wasn't the Bataan death march, but it did throw our tempos off and I think we both bogeyed 2 of the last 4 holes (first world problems). It just drags on you waiting on every shot knowing the course is wide open up ahead.

[MountainKing]

4 hours ago, Marshal Jim said:

1. So, no marshal that day, I assume?

2.  How firmly did you ask to play through?

3.  Was it the type of course where you could see several holes in front of the "slow" group, or just right in front of them?

4.  Could you/did you call the Pro Shop?

5.  Did you consider just walking past them, skipping a hole?  Seems like the would be better than fuming for 2 1/2 hours.

 

It sounds like the course might have been open enough for you to play your pace, and the other group to play their pace, and have everyone be happy.

None of those questions area really relevant.  A slow group should be letting a fast group through if there's room, one hole being open is room. 

 

With that, I always wonder about the people on here who say they walked 9 holes as a twosome in 45 minutes.  I play to a low single digit and by myself an hour is clipping along and I'm not a slow golfer.  Get my yardage, pick my club, one practice swing, pick my line and fire away.   

 

About 20 seconds a shot is my average, that means I'm about 15 minutes worth of shots, that leaves 30 minutes for walking which ends up being a little over 3 minutes per hole...and that's only one person. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by MountainKing

[nsxguy]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:57 PM, Marshal Jim said:

Wow!  & to think that I've spent the last 15 years trying to keep a good pace for a******* like you.

 

No offense.

 

You might try reading the Rules of the Forum. You've violated 2 of them in your very first post.

 

 

On 5/29/2021 at 4:16 PM, Marshal Jim said:

Having worked at it for 15 years, I know what the main reason is.

 

Golfers

 

Not always. As the guy you called out in your very first post suggested, an awful lot of "marshals" actually ARE marshaling for free golf.

 

 

On 5/31/2021 at 9:36 AM, Marshal Jim said:

Another thing that's kinda funny, and not just here but on other golf forums, too, is that when someone wants ideas about how to deal with slow play, you would think that someone who's done it for 15 years would be who you'd want to hear from.

 

 

Someone who's done something for a long time isn't necessarily an expert. Sometimes they are simply "experienced".

 

And someone who's marshaled for 15 years and only just now has come to realize "it's only a problem when a course is too busy" doesn't inspire a lot of confidence.

 

No offense.

 

 

On 5/31/2021 at 2:20 PM, Marshal Jim said:

Maximum pace at my course is totally second nature to me.  It was built as a championship, PGA-caliber course, with each of the first four sets of four holes having a Par 3, a Par 5, and two Par fours.  The Par 3s are paced at 12 minutes, the Par 4s at 15 minutes, and the Par 5s at 18 minutes.  So that's an hour for each of the first four sets of four holes.  17 and 18 are Par 4s, 15 minutes each, so that's 4 1/2 hours.

 

So, when it comes to marshalling, I don't even have to think twice because it's so automatic.  If a group is not doing 4 holes an hour, anywhere on the course, they're behind pace.

 

I am used to golfers, even very experienced ones, not understanding the natural ebb and flow of a golf course and where completely "natural" gaps occur, but for a marshal to be "4 holes an hour" rigid, especially such an experienced marshal, that is a bit worrying.

 

Gaps are not always easy to close up as the trailing group needs to play faster than normal TO catch up.

 

ALL "drive-able" par 4s create gaps. ALL "reachable" par 5s create gaps. Almost all par 3s create gaps now that calling up the group behind is no longer in vogue. The rules of Golf allow for a 3 minute ball search. Have to find a couple of balls, not done concurrently, and there's another "unscheduled" gap.

 

And marshal's aren't always the sharpest tools in the shed either. A year ago a marshal came up to us on the 8th green and told us the group in front was 1.5 holes ahead of us (true) and we needed to close the gap.

 

The group behind was on our tail for at least the 3 previous holes. The group behind them was nowhere in sight.

 

My group finished the front 9 in 1 HR 40 and I told them we had to let the group behind go through us anyway - so they went inside for "relief" and when the group behind finished the 9th I told them they could play through.

 

They thanked me and started off but then stopped and said "You know what, our husbands are behind us and we don't want to finish so far ahead of them so we'll wait. No big deal".

 

The ladies likely "hung back" a bit on the back 9 so we wouldn't feel pressured because we didn't see them again. The same marshal approached us on the 14th tee and again gave us grief for being behind. We finished the back 9 in exactly the same 1 HR 40 as the front.

 

3 hrs 20 minutes for 18 holes and we're being pushed by a marshal.

 

Oh, and just the other day, a "ranger" came to us on the FIRST TEE and said "Let's go, the group in front of you is already walking off the green". The starter had JUST SENT US to the 1st tee.

 

So the problem isn't always the golfers. 🤦‍♀️

 

 

On 6/1/2021 at 9:22 AM, Marshal Jim said:

Al Gore's first rule when he started his Internet.

 

1.  Be rude to new people.

 

 

When the new guy's first post is as yours was ? Hmmmmm.

 

 

On 6/1/2021 at 8:49 PM, Marshal Jim said:

After all these years dealing with this issue, it just occurred to me that it's only a problem when a course is too busy.  When it's not busy, when there's gaps off the first tee, fast groups can play through slow groups and slow groups can play at their pace, and everyone goes home happy.

 

When it's busy, and there's no gaps, everyone has to play at the same pace, the pace of the slowest group.

 

Sad that this only just occurred to you - especially after all these years. But as I said, "experience" and "expert" aren't always complementary terms.

 

Oh, and welcome to the board. ✌️