VJ Trolio's Book- "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle"

[btk_1]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='808859' date='Dec 1 2007, 08:49 AM']btk-1

I am aware that Hogan shifted his pelvis left-laterally in the late backswing, and that would shift the weight of his lower body to the left. However, I suspect that the amount of weight shift due to this lower body move is very small in magnitude. By contrast, his spine is tilted to the right which means that his upper body and head is to the right of center. Then factor in the weight of his arms and club, which are all to the right of center, and explain to me how he could have most of his body weight on his left side at the end-backswing position.

Jeff.[/quote]
JeffMan,

Thanks for your comments... I was hoping you would pipe in because I've read your [url="http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/pivot.htm"]pivot paper[/url] article and you seem to have a good grasp of human anatomy and what should be moving in a proper pivot motion.

As I stated previously, I don't think Trolio specifically proves how much weight Hogan transfers to his left foot in the backswing. You bring up some good points about the effect of the weight of the upper body/head/arms/club being right of center at the end-backswing position and how this might limit the weight transfer to the left foot.

If you had to estimate, what amount of weight do you think a golfer needs to transfer to their left foot to accomplish moving their center of gravity to their left pivot point at the end-backswing position -- thus permitting the golfer to start their downswing with an aggressive [u]turn[/u] of the hips?

btk_1

[birdie_man]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='808545' date='Nov 30 2007, 09:36 PM']Jody Vasquez......good player from Ft. Worth......actually worked for the Hogan Co.......nice guy.......shagged balls for Mr. Hogan for a year or so +/-........I think his right knee being the secret is BS.....but that's just MOP.......there is a thread from a coupla' weeks ago that deals directly with this whole "right knee" deal.......do a search on Jody Vasquez and you'll find it.......and IF I were to write a book about my thoughts on the golf swing, I'll guarantee you it won't be designed to "pimp" off of Mr. Hogan....... IMOP, that can't be said of a bunch of these "Hogan Secret" experts..........NEVER ceases to amaze me how these guy's who KNOW "Hogan's Secret" NEVER MENTIONED A WORD until both he and Mrs. Hogan were long gone...........hard to dispute something when your not around ta' do it........[/quote]

I agree 100%. There's a lot of money out there if you can convince people you know something about Hogan.

To me, if anything had to do with his right knee I think at best it was a personal "feel" or an image that helped Hogan. Some kind of "trigger" for his downswing. And that's a maybe cause I'm not sure if he talked about it himself.

And if it is something Hogan actually did I don't think it's something that...

1. would be worthy of being called any kind of all-important "secret"

2. could really help too many others (it's just a personal trigger if anything)

I mean...........you read so much of this stuff..........I even read something the other day about Hogan precisely controlling his distance with the movement of his right knee. I almost $h!t a cinder block.

[JeffMann]

btk-1

 

You ask-: "If you had to estimate, what amount of weight do you think a golfer needs to transfer to their left foot to accomplish moving their center of gravity to their left pivot point at the end-backswing position -- thus permitting the golfer to start their downswing with an aggressive turn of the hips?"

 

I don't know if I really understand your question. I agree that one should start the downswing with an active turn of the hips, but I cannot understand why one would want one's weight already over the left pivot point at the end-backswng position. I think that it is biomechanically much better to have one's COG slightly to the right of the left pivot point at the start of the downswing. Then, by moving the COG leftwards at the start of the downswing, the torso acquires enough momentum to pivot effectively over the straightening left leg. If the COG is already over the left leg, then I think that it is much more difficult to create enough torso momentum to pivot efficiently. The S&T golfers have to use an unnatural hip thrusting maneuver to accomplish this goal because I think that they have too much weight over the left leg at the end-backswing position (IMPO - I think that it is unnatural). Ben Hogan never performed a hip thrusting maneuver. Look how much he shifted his pelvis left-laterally at the start of the downswing before he starts to pivot left-backwards around the left leg.

 

 

Jeff.

[birdie_man]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='808639' date='Nov 30 2007, 11:19 PM']I love to watch the players of yesterday vs. today mainly because of their freedom of motion. I think a lack of video analysis lubed their joints!![/quote]

Agreed! You only concern yourself with how to make the ball go where it needs to go. With more emphasis on the motion "as a whole." Or at least I would say- video makes it easy for some players to get caught up in positions that don't necessarily mean anything.

[quote]Also, OEM's of today sell clubs that are light(swingweight) and feel is sacrificed for distance.[/quote]

Agreed again...! Better feel and more to load at the top....and more to pull on on the way down. I get better feel and feel like I get better impact alignments and better wallop of that ball. My next set will be at least D5 I think.

[quote]As far as Mr. Hogan's secret, I personally feel that it is buried in red clay. I think it is fun to discuss his motion and what made the swing work for him...but in the long run each of us have to find our own secret. There are only a few instructors that I've witnessed that have been able to communicate the right thing(secret), in the right way for that particular individual.[/quote]

Annnnnd- ag-reid.

There are answers out there cause every player is doing "something." (even the bad ones) There's for sure mechanics to be learned from Hogan too. (obviously)

But ya gotta know that everyone's got some different tendencies. You gotta "dig it out" yourself. Persevere. There's really nothing more important IMO.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='808859' date='Dec 1 2007, 10:49 AM']btk-1

I am aware that Hogan shifted his pelvis left-laterally in the late backswing, and that would shift the weight of his lower body to the left. However, I suspect that the amount of weight shift due to this lower body move is very small in magnitude. By contrast, his spine is tilted to the right which means that his upper body and head is to the right of center. Then factor in the weight of his arms and club, which are all to the right of center, and explain to me how he could have most of his body weight on his left side at the end-backswing position.

Jeff.[/quote]


Easy.....he didn't......

[slicefixer]

btk-1

 

You ask-: "If you had to estimate, what amount of weight do you think a golfer needs to transfer to their left foot to accomplish moving their center of gravity to their left pivot point at the end-backswing position -- thus permitting the golfer to start their downswing with an aggressive turn of the hips?"

 

I don't know if I really understand your question. I agree that one should start the downswing with an active turn of the hips, but I cannot understand why one would want one's weight already over the left pivot point at the end-backswng position. I think that it is biomechanically much better to have one's COG slightly to the right of the left pivot point at the start of the downswing. Then, by moving the COG leftwards at the start of the downswing, the torso acquires enough momentum to pivot effectively over the straightening left leg. If the COG is already over the left leg, then I think that it is much more difficult to create enough torso momentum to pivot efficiently. The S&T golfers have to use an unnatural hip thrusting maneuver to accomplish this goal because I think that they have too much weight over the left leg at the end-backswing position (IMPO - I think that it is unnatural). Ben Hogan never performed a hip thrusting maneuver. Look how much he shifted his pelvis left-laterally at the start of the downswing before he starts to pivot left-backwards around the left leg.

 

 

Jeff.

 

 

In that pic, which is from Tamarisk in Palms Springs, I ask you guy's this......does it look like he's "driving his right knee" or "running his right knee" at the ball/target line........... ;) (I'll tell you what IS happening......the LEFT SIDE (primarily the left latisimus dorsi) is stretched out like a huge rubber band by his backswing pivot........in the pics it's simply "snapping back" which is why the left side is clearing out so beautifully so he can smack all hell from it with his right side........IF he were "running his right knee" then the footwork would be a LOT different.......IMOP)

[JeffMann]

SF - I don't think that he is driving his right knee actively towards the ball-target line. I think that the right knee moves near-passively, secondary to a rotation movement of the pelvis (left hip clearing action).

Jeff.

[High Plains Driver]

[btk_1]

JeffMan,

Trolio states that Hogan moved his center of gravity (defined at setup as exactly between his feet and "closer to his heels than his toes") onto his pivot axis (defined as anchored in his left foot, extending upward, approximately following his left leg) during his backswing... furthermore, he states that he transfers about 80% of his weight to his left foot to accomplish this. I'll restate my question slightly differently this time... if you had to estimate, what amount of weight do you think Hogan would have to transfer to his left foot to accomplish moving his center of gravity onto his pivot axis?

Here's some of Trolio's remarks that touch on your questions:

Trolio feels from a physics standpoint that the closer the center of gravity is to the pivot axis at the end-backswing, the faster a golfer can rotate their hips (body) to start the downswing. He shows a formula - according to Newton's Second Law of rotational motion - that proves maximum acceleration occurs when the center of gravity of an object is located on the pivot axis.

Trolio does mention where he feels the force comes from to initiate the hip turn that starts the downswing. He states it starts with the right foot, specifically the inside edge or instep of the right foot and then the right toe -- he relates this to Hogan's use of an extra spike in the toe of each shoe. He demonstrates by making the backswing motion with ALL the weight on the left foot, and with the right foot slightly off the ground, that it is very difficult to make a rapid hip turn to start the downswing. He further states that you can turn either the shoulders and torso to make your hips rotate, or use the muscles in your left leg to start the rotation, but he feels both are very weak moves.

Trolio bases his analysis mainly on Hogan's swings in Clem Darracott's video "Ben Hogan: In Pursuit of Perfection" filmed during the 1967 Masters -- in which Hogan stated about Saturday's back nine 30 "I think I played the best golf of my life on those last nine holes. I don't think I came close to missing a shot." Trolio further states that most films of Hogan don't show the degree of forward lateral hip movement in the backswing that Darracott's video shows. However, he states that most of the sequence shots of his swing were NOT taken while he competed or when he was preparing for competition. He mentions Hogan was very careful about whom he allowed to film his swing and analysis of post-accident swing footage reveals that his swings differed from his swings in competition.

Thanks, btk_1

[JeffMann]

btk-1

I cannot quantitate the magnitude of the amount of weight shift Hogan would have to undertake to get most of his weight [80%] on the left foot at the end-backswing. I would just be guessing! I certainly don't believe that Hogan had 80% of his weight on the left foot at the end-backswing position. I still would like to know how Trolio claims to have proven that fact.

It is difficult for me to criticise his thinking without actually reading the book. However, it sounds irrational to quote Newton's law of rotation to prove that acceleration occurs faster when the COG is near the pivot point. That may apply to physical objects rotating in space, but it cannot apply to the human body. People seem to have very little understanding of human anatomy. There is actually no "true" rotation of the pelvis. One pivots over the left femoral head in such a way that one undergoes a left hip clearing action (rotation left-backwards of the left pelvis due to the fact that the left femoral head has moved to a "[b]new[/b]" position). Pivoting over the left femoral head is maximised if one has to slide [b]first[/b], because as one slides against a firming-up left thigh and "fixed" left knee, the lateral sliding force helps to push the left femoral head backwards and rightwards [b]before[/b] weight gets on the left leg and stabilises the left thigh, and this phenomenon enables the left hip clearing pivot motion to occur efficiently. If [b]most[/b] of the body weight is [b]already[/b] on the left foot at the end-backswing, then two problems occur-: i) The 80% of body weight that is on the left leg, transmitted through the left thigh to the ground, impedes the ability of the left femoral head to move to a [b]new[/b] position (back-rightwards) - because it is easier to move the left femoral head to a new position when the left thigh is [b]unweighted[/b], and if the left femoral head doesn't easily move to a new position, then the left hip clearing pivot action cannot properly occur. ii) Secondly, if 80% of the body weight is already on the left side, then there is less ability to use one's body weight as a"force" to move from right-to-left by pushing off the right foot. By contrast, if 80% of one's body weight is on the [b]right[/b] foot at the end of the backswing, then it is much easier to push off the right foot. I think that pushing off the inside of the right foot is important because it shifts the pelvis left-laterally against an [b]unweighted [/b]left thigh and that force drives the [b]upper[/b] left thigh [b]slightly rightwards[/b] and [b]slightly backwards[/b], and that re-positions the left femoral head to a "new" position [b]before [/b]the left thigh becomes excessively weighted. If 80% of the body weight is on the left foot, thereby [b]fixing[/b] the left femoral head in its [b]end-backswing position[/b], and one cannot easily push off the right foot, then how does one drive the left femoral head to a "[b]new[/b]" position, which is necessary for the left hip clearing action to properly occur. If you think that my reasoning is faulty, try an experiment. Perform a rightwards-centered backswing (as described in my pivot paper), and start the downswing by pushing off the inside of the right foot. Note how the left-lateral pelvic slide actually pushes against an [b]unweighted[/b] left thigh and readily moves the left thigh, and therefore the left femoral head, to a "[b]new[/b]" position, and that the "[b]new[/b]" position is what actually represents the left hip clearing action. I find that I can get a much faster left hip clearing action that way - compared to a situation where the left thigh is [b]excessively weighted[/b] at the start of the downswing and no left-lateral hip slide occurs. The left-lateral hip slide against a "fixed" left knee and unweighted left thigh allows that force to deflect left-backwards and move the left femoral head to its "new" position.

Jeff.

[mike52]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4[/url]

[Lake]

[quote name='mike52' post='809235' date='Dec 1 2007, 05:23 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4[/url][/quote]

Thanks for posting the video Mike52, for those that don't know V.J. Trolio that his him striping a few range balls at Old Waverly Golf Club in West Point, MS. [url="http://www.troliogolf.com/"]http://www.troliogolf.com/[/url]

[slicefixer]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='809023' date='Dec 1 2007, 02:17 PM']SF - I don't think that he is driving his right knee actively towards the ball-target line. I think that the right knee moves near-passively, secondary to a rotation movement of the pelvis (left hip clearing action).

Jeff.[/quote]


He isn't Jeff, Mr. Hogan was a "left sided player" in that he used his left side HEAVILY in his golf swing.........it's all there on tape IF a person will bother to gather up the video and KNOWS what to look for in the swing........innumerable angles that show how STRONGLY he "clears the left side" to "make room for this arms/right side and club to rotate THROUGH the shot..........and this Trolio fellow, well I'm not going to get into debating "Hogan's Secret" other than to say, IMOP, he's ANOTHER "Hogan pimp" picking at his long dead body........makes me want to puke......and I've got a young man that is as close to Mr. Hogan swinging a golf club as ANY I've ever seen.....and we've BUILT it over many years based on MY observations (and his hard work) regarding Mr. Hogan's golf swing........Please understand, it's NOT exact, but, darnn close.....a hell of a lot better than Mr. Trolio IMOP......and I'll post it too........some here have seen the footage and EVERYONE to a man is amazed at the similarity.........helluva' lot closer than ANYTHING seen by my eye's..........and he's NOT "driving the right knee"......nor any of the other of Mr. Hogan's supposed "secrets" that I've read over tha past few years........can't speak for Mr. Trolio's version of "Hogan's Secret," but, my guess is it will fit neatly into some "system"/"method".........but, as I've not read it I won't comment on the details until I read and understand for myself......and I will at some point.........but, whenever I see ANOTHER book billing itself as "Hogan's Secret revealed" or some such BS, it turns my stomach.......JMOP.....

ADDENDUM..........as of 8/07/08...........

Wow, I must have been in a very bad mood when that un' started.........I was pretty hard on Trolio........still believe 100% in what I stated though.......it's just that guy's who "use" Mr. Hogan and HIS hard work to make money with their theory of his secret REALLY bothers me.......just don't understand why they can't simply EARN their OWN reputations and let him rest in peace.........I think it's fine to write a book about one's theory/method and add a chapter about Mr. Hogan and your take/opinion on his secret/swing........but there is just something wrong, to me, about plastering the man's image on the cover and announcing you've got his "secret" when he's no longer alive to dispute it........JMOP and I know some, possibly a lot, will disagree........

[akanacl]

[quote name='kenk7us2002' post='808518' date='Nov 30 2007, 06:57 PM']It never fails to amaze me how much you guys worship the swing of a man that played his last competitive golf before most of you were born

Heck the only things I remember him playing in was the 66 masters and a shells wonderful world of golf with Sam Snead.

That and remember I am old.

Now do not get me wrong, although I do not agree with a lot of things in the Hogan swing, I certainly do not dismiss it. Or his contribution to the game.

I just do not understand how you guys talk about him like he was a god or something or why anyone would want to write a book about the missing secret.

I guess its the same type of thing as the people that worship Moe Norman and his golf swing.

Its funny Trevino may be the best ball striker since Hogan and no one wants to copy his swing.[/quote]
Maybe its because Hogan's swing seems to be the best template for where the modern, athletic golf swing is headed.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='809263' date='Dec 1 2007, 07:50 PM'][quote name='mike52' post='809235' date='Dec 1 2007, 05:23 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4[/url][/quote]

Thanks for posting the video Mike52, for those that don't know V.J. Trolio that his him striping a few range balls at Old Waverly Golf Club in West Point, MS. [url="http://www.troliogolf.com/"]http://www.troliogolf.com/[/url]
[/quote]


That's a nice swing, but, NO Ben Hogan......NOT even close IMOP.......MUCH closer to S&T/MORAD........wish the video was filmed a bit closer so we could really see it.........but that's not even close.......Set up "angles" are about as close to Mr. Hogan as LA is to Hong Kong.....He looks a helluva' LOT more like Duval at the top than Hogan........and I've looked at every piece of Hogan footage that I know exists (and I'll continue to dig for more) and I've never seen Mr. Hogan finished that "reversed"/thorasic spine tilt in a single pic/swing period.......Looks a LOT more like S&T than Hoganish IMOP.......LUV to see this guy post a driver swing and NOT from a hundred yards away either ........plus some 45 degree angle shots taken from all points around him.......

[JeffMann]

I agree with SF - he has a nice swing, but it is not like Hogan's swing. It is much more like a S&T swing.

 

Here is a comparison between Hogan and Trolio.

 

 

At the end-backswing position, you can see that Trolio has shifted his pelvis well over to the left, so that the outer border of his left pelvis is outside his left foot (yellow arrow). One can sense that he has a lot of weight on his left foot.

 

By comparison, Hogan has the outer border of his left pelvis well within his left foot at the end-backswing position (yellow arrow), and Hogan does not appear to be leaning over his left foot.

 

In the downswing, note how straight Trolio's left leg becomes, and note that his left thigh is facing forward. Hogan, at a comparable point in his downswing, has slight flex in the left knee, and the front of his thigh is facing slightly left-forward (rather than straight forward) due to the fact that he has already pivoted more leftwards. I believe that Trolio cannot easily rotate his left femoral head rightwards when he pivots over his left leg, because he is weighted over the left leg at the end-backswing position and he can only snap his left thigh backwards and force the left femoral head straight backwards towards the tush line. I personally don't like this type of left hip clearing action. I prefer Hogan's left hip clearing action, where he drives the left femoral head backwards but also rightwards. The rightwards movement of the left femoral head opens up the pelvis to the target and allows for a better, and more natural, pelvic rotation - IMOP.

 

Jeff.

[Swingtheclub]

yeah looked a bit s and t to me as well hurt my back jus to watch it.

Ken

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='809263' date='Dec 1 2007, 06:50 PM'][quote name='mike52' post='809235' date='Dec 1 2007, 05:23 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4[/url][/quote]

Thanks for posting the video Mike52, for those that don't know V.J. Trolio that his him striping a few range balls at Old Waverly Golf Club in West Point, MS. [url="http://www.troliogolf.com/"]http://www.troliogolf.com/[/url]
[/quote]

It's a good swing. To be fair Jeffmann, you're comparing Hogan swinging a wood (wider stance) to Trolio swinging an iron. However, V.J's set-up does have a noticeable "leftward lean"(compare leg angles), high right hip and a stacked vertical or slightly leftward leaning spine angle (hard to tell exactly due to the distance from the camera). So yes, IMO very "stack & tilty" and not at all like Hogan's set-up which had some axis tilt (right leaning) and appeared more 50/50 on the weight distribution.

[slicefixer]

I agree with SF - he has a nice swing, but it is not like Hogan's swing. It is much more like a S&T swing.

 

Here is a comparison between Hogan and Trolio.

 

 

At the end-backswing position, you can see that Trolio has shifted his pelvis well over to the left, so that the outer border of his left pelvis is outside his left foot (yellow arrow). One can sense that he has a lot of weight on his left foot.

 

By comparison, Hogan has the outer border of his left pelvis well within his left foot at the end-backswing position (yellow arrow), and Hogan does not appear to be leaning over his left foot.

 

In the downswing, note how straight Trolio's left leg becomes, and note that his left thigh is facing forward. Hogan, at a comparable point in his downswing, has slight flex in the left knee, and the front of his thigh is facing slightly left-forward (rather than straight forward) due to the fact that he has already pivoted more leftwards. I believe that Trolio cannot easily rotate his left femoral head rightwards when he pivots over his left leg, because he is weighted over the left leg at the end-backswing position and he can only snap his left thigh backwards and force the left femoral head straight backwards towards the tush line. I personally don't like this type of left hip clearing action. I prefer Hogan's left hip clearing action, where he drives the left femoral head backwards but also rightwards. The rightwards movement of the left femoral head opens up the pelvis to the target and allows for a better, and more natural, pelvic rotation - IMOP.

 

Jeff.

 

 

Doc, got get a god shot of Duval hitting a 5, 6 , 7 iron (since that's what this guy is hitting I think)...........stop em' at the top......it'll be virtually identical..........That's a nice IRON swing, but, it's sure as heck NO Hogan.......I'd also LUV to see a driver swing........bet you the head goes roaring backwards in the downswing and he finishes even more "hung back".......nice swing, but, as far as Mr. Hogan, nope, nada, no way......

[slicefixer]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='809881' date='Dec 2 2007, 01:04 PM'][quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='809263' date='Dec 1 2007, 06:50 PM'][quote name='mike52' post='809235' date='Dec 1 2007, 05:23 PM'][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SM8zE1s5qf4[/url][/quote]

Thanks for posting the video Mike52, for those that don't know V.J. Trolio that his him striping a few range balls at Old Waverly Golf Club in West Point, MS. [url="http://www.troliogolf.com/"]http://www.troliogolf.com/[/url]
[/quote]

It's a good swing. To be fair Jeffmann, you're comparing Hogan swinging a wood (wider stance) to Trolio swinging an iron. However, V.J's set-up does have a noticeable "leftward lean"(compare leg angles), high right hip and a stacked vertical or slightly leftward leaning spine angle (hard to tell exactly due to the distance from the camera). So yes, IMO very "stack & tilty" and not at all like Hogan's set-up which had some axis tilt (right leaning) and appeared more 50/50 on the weight distribution.
[/quote]

Doesn't matter whether it's an iron or not HF, Mr. Hogan's right side (body angles) ALWAYS have a "reverse K" look from face on at the top (cause he's turned INTO his right side)........this guy's UPPER body is "leaning left" at the top, like Duval/Couples........at the top, draw a line from the outside of the right ear STRAIGHT down 90 degrees........you'll see a LOT of "daylight" with Mr. Hogan......with Trolio's you won't see ANY......easy way to figure out how a person pivots..........although, "trained eye's" would spot it on the first swing and without video......also, look at the "angle of the head" as there is a HUGE difference.........take a shot from the "rear end vie" and it would look like "day vs. night".......the "cg shift" that this guys demonstrates isn't necessary to (at least to the extent he does it) to build a GREAT golf swing ("UNnecessary motion, UNnecessary "moving part") ........this guy has a nice swing, but, to call it "Hogan like" does Mr. Hogan a HUGE disservice IMOP.......it's basically NOTHING like Mr. Hogan.......yes, they are both swinging a golf club, but, that's about where it ends IMOP.........

[JeffMann]

Hoganfan924

It is true that I should have used a shot of Hogan hitting an iron, but I didn't have one in my collection and I think that it doesn't really matter much because as SF states-: "Doesn't matter whether it's an iron or not HF, Mr. Hogan's right side (body angles) ALWAYS have a "reverse K" look from face on at the top (cause he's turned INTO his right side)...."

I agree with SF. What SF calls "turning into his right side", I simply call a [b]natural[/b] spinal movement - where the spine adopts a natural rightwards tilt [b]all the way[/b] from the lumbar spine to the cervical spine, and where there is [b]no [/b]leaning over to the left side.

Jeff.

[JeffMann]

I still cannot find a face-on view of Hogan hitting an iron on the web. All the videos of Hogan posted by AdamSmith are DTL views or side-angle views.

 

However, I did find this nice series of Hogan swings.

 

 

When looking at Hogan swing-after-swing, I never get a sense that he is leaning leftwards at the end-backswing. He always looks like he is simply rotating centrally between his feet during the backswing while keeping his head behind the ball. By keeping his head behind the ball, he always seems to have a reverse K look when viewed from face-on.

 

 

Here is a swing comparison between Hogan and Byron Nelson.

 

Hogan and Nelson

 

Stop the swing at the end-backswing and look at Hogan's angles - his reverse K look - compared to Nelson. Hogan keeps his head well back and he has a lot of rightwards spinal tilt, despite a leftwards-shifted pelvis.

 

 

Jeff.

[Swingtheclub]

Jeff on this we totally agree.

[birdie_man]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='809886' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:08 PM']Doc, got get a god shot of Duval hitting a 5, 6 , 7 iron (since that's what this guy is hitting I think)...........stop em' at the top......it'll be virtually identical..........That's a nice IRON swing, but, it's sure as heck NO Hogan.......I'd also LUV to see a driver swing........bet you the head goes roaring backwards in the downswing and he finishes even more "hung back".......nice swing, but, as far as Mr. Hogan, nope, nada, no way......[/quote]

I've got one with driver.....

Duval 2001:
[url="http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4460840"]http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4460840[/url]

BTW was this how he always pivoted??? Even in his prime?

This is in 2001....if not by this time, it couldn't have been too much later when things started going sour for him....

[slicefixer]

[quote name='birdie_man' post='810111' date='Dec 2 2007, 05:06 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='809886' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:08 PM']Doc, got get a god shot of Duval hitting a 5, 6 , 7 iron (since that's what this guy is hitting I think)...........stop em' at the top......it'll be virtually identical..........That's a nice IRON swing, but, it's sure as heck NO Hogan.......I'd also LUV to see a driver swing........bet you the head goes roaring backwards in the downswing and he finishes even more "hung back".......nice swing, but, as far as Mr. Hogan, nope, nada, no way......[/quote]

I've got one with driver.....

Duval 2001:
[url="http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4460840"]http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4460840[/url]

BTW was this how he always pivoted??? Even in his prime?

This is in 2001....if not by this time, it couldn't have been too much later when things started going sour for him....
[/quote]


Bird, I can't get the pic "up".......everything else seems to work with the link, but, the pic is a "no show" for me.............but, going from memory, Duval and Trolio will look ALMOST exact at the top........very, very close and certainly a LOT more alike than a comparison with Mr. Hogan, which IMOP, isn't close at all......

[birdie_man]

Here you go Mr. Fixer.....hopfully this one works:

 

 

???

[btk_1]

Trolio dedicates one short paragraph to the [i]missing piece[/i] vs. "stack and tilt". Here's a summary of his comments...

1. Both swings incorporate a minimal backward weight shift... here the similarities cease.
2. The [i]missing piece[/i] requires a spine which is angled backward, AWAY from the target at the top of the swing... "stack and tilt" requires a forward tilted spine at the top of the swing.
3. In the [i]missing piece[/i] the weight moves forward during the BACKSWING, so the downswing can start by simply turning the hips... "stack and tilt" (as with almost all other modern instruction) utilizes a forward weight shift on the DOWNSWING, either prior to or during the counterclockwise turning of the hips.

[JeffMann]

btk-1 - I wonder what S&T enthusiasts would say about claim number 3 that S&Ters don't try and get their weight forward on the lead foot during the backswing, and that they only try and get their weight forward during the downswing. :-)

Jeff.

[btk_1]

[quote name='JeffMann' post='810376' date='Dec 2 2007, 07:26 PM']btk-1 - I wonder what S&T enthusiasts would say about claim number 3 that S&Ters don't try and get their weight forward on the lead foot during the backswing, and that they only try and get their weight forward during the downswing. :-)

Jeff.[/quote]
Jeffman,

I edited claim number 3 in my previous post which might add perspective... in his comments on "stack and tilt", Trolio doesn't specifically say that [u]no[/u] weight moves forward in the backswing.

Thanks, btk_1

[slicefixer]

"3. In the missing piece the weight moves forward during the BACKSWING, so the downswing can start by simply turning the hips"

Trust me, this "move" is NOT necessary and was certainly NOT Mr. Hogan's "Secret"......IMOP anyway.........all I've done in my "method" (if you want to call it that) is ELIMINATE that particular move from my thinking as I could NEVER figure out a way that it was beneficial.......simply "complicated things" rather than "helping things"......IMOP...........but, I CAN, 100%, GUARANTEE you that it IS an UNnecessary "move".....100% UNnecessary........