VJ Trolio's Book- "The Final Missing Piece of Ben Hogan's Secret Puzzle"

[slicefixer]

[quote name='birdie_man' post='810111' date='Dec 2 2007, 05:06 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='809886' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:08 PM']Doc, got get a god shot of Duval hitting a 5, 6 , 7 iron (since that's what this guy is hitting I think)...........stop em' at the top......it'll be virtually identical..........That's a nice IRON swing, but, it's sure as heck NO Hogan.......I'd also LUV to see a driver swing........bet you the head goes roaring backwards in the downswing and he finishes even more "hung back".......nice swing, but, as far as Mr. Hogan, nope, nada, no way......[/quote]

I've got one with driver.....

Duval 2001:
[url="http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4460840"]http://www.putfile.com/pic.php?img=4460840[/url]

BTW was this how he always pivoted??? Even in his prime?

This is in 2001....if not by this time, it couldn't have been too much later when things started going sour for him....
[/quote]


YEP......worked too........semi low fade EVERYTIME........and SOLID! (also led to his back blowing out.....along with lifting weights)

[kosmosspoetz]

Slice,

Any evidence that it was his move and not his fitness obsession that lead to injury? I agree that he faded and hit it solid, but...seen plenty of moonballs (high--high) shots from him.

[Lake]

Right when you think he just might say it......nope/nada/gdnite sally

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI[/url]

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='810572' date='Dec 2 2007, 11:16 PM']Right when you think he just might say it......nope/nada/gdnite sally

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI[/url][/quote]

Well,

He did reveal what he describes in that youtube clip in the 8/8/55 Life magazine article (left forearm pronation in the backswing and cupping the left wrist at the top of the backswing).

[Lake]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='810587' date='Dec 2 2007, 10:33 PM'][quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='810572' date='Dec 2 2007, 11:16 PM']Right when you think he just might say it......nope/nada/gdnite sally

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI[/url][/quote]

Well,

He did reveal what he describes in that youtube clip in the 8/8/55 Life magazine article (left forearm pronation in the backswing and cupping the left wrist at the top of the backswing).
[/quote]

HF,

Did he ever say/describe it on camera? Here's a link describing "The Secret" straight from the Hogan website:
[url="http://www.benhogan.com/legacy/book/chap2.html"]http://www.benhogan.com/legacy/book/chap2.html[/url]

Lake

ps- Slice were you in diapers when you hit 100 posts?

[slicefixer]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='810587' date='Dec 3 2007, 12:33 AM'][quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='810572' date='Dec 2 2007, 11:16 PM']Right when you think he just might say it......nope/nada/gdnite sally

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI[/url][/quote]

Well,

He did reveal what he describes in that youtube clip in the 8/8/55 Life magazine article (left forearm pronation in the backswing and cupping the left wrist at the top of the backswing).
[/quote]


Yep......said so in the Seitz interview too........but, IMOP, he still didn't truly "reveal it".......and, as he has never struck me as a person to BS about something so important to him and his success, I truly believe he died with "it".......maybe so a bunch of us can sit around and get carpel tunnel trying to explain OUR theory as to his "secret"......hehehehe

[slicefixer]

[quote name='kosmosspoetz' post='810565' date='Dec 3 2007, 12:06 AM']Slice,

Any evidence that it was his move and not his fitness obsession that lead to injury? I agree that he faded and hit it solid, but...seen plenty of moonballs (high--high) shots from him.[/quote]

Certainly would NEVER say he couldn't hit it high if needed, just that he would have had to WORK pretty hard to do it..........and....just that his base/"stock" shot was a medium-low fade (especially with the driver)........and, no evidence on the back, just MOP.......but, IMOP it was a combination of the "teeter totter" pivot and his lifting heavy weights (supposedly)........makes sense.....but it's just MOP...

[slicefixer]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='810604' date='Dec 3 2007, 12:55 AM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='810587' date='Dec 2 2007, 10:33 PM'][quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='810572' date='Dec 2 2007, 11:16 PM']Right when you think he just might say it......nope/nada/gdnite sally

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9vke_C8AWI[/url][/quote]

Well,

He did reveal what he describes in that youtube clip in the 8/8/55 Life magazine article (left forearm pronation in the backswing and cupping the left wrist at the top of the backswing).
[/quote]

HF,

Did he ever say/describe it on camera? Here's a link describing "The Secret" straight from the Hogan website:
[url="http://www.benhogan.com/legacy/book/chap2.html"]http://www.benhogan.com/legacy/book/chap2.html[/url]

Lake

ps- Slice were in diapers when you hit 100 posts
[/quote]

Lake, I'm soooo old diapers weren't even invented when I was a baby........... Same as 55' Life article........weaker grip......LEFT forearm/arm rotation......"cupped" at the top.......slightly laid off......open face......recipe to be able to REALLY rotate left without fear of a pull or hook......and he did......man, did he!

[Lake]

This looks like it could have been on the high side

[slicefixer]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='810614' date='Dec 3 2007, 01:03 AM']This looks like it could have been on the high side [/quote]


Yep, or he had to wait about an hour and a half for his arms and clubhead to catch up so it could square up.....

[Lake]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='810612' date='Dec 2 2007, 11:02 PM']Lake, I'm soooo old diapers weren't even invented when I was a baby...........[/quote]

Whatever, you are twenty years younger than the average age of my membership!!! On the upper scale...one of my members who just turned 80 bought himself an 08' CC Precident w/ chrome rims w/ an in-dash radio. He said that he's going out in style and getting to his ball before anybody else even gets close I was seriously considering posting his swing on the other thread becasue he swings cross-handed (left hand low) and hits a smoking cut. They don't make'em like this guy anymore...tells me stories of Hogan, Snead, Venturi, etc. all the time and when he looks at my Hogan sequence on the wall he always says the only thing wrong with Hogan's swing is his grip

[slicefixer]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='810631' date='Dec 3 2007, 01:26 AM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='810612' date='Dec 2 2007, 11:02 PM']Lake, I'm soooo old diapers weren't even invented when I was a baby...........[/quote]

Whatever, you are twenty years younger than the average age of my membership!!! On the upper scale...one of my members who just turned a 80 bought himself an 08' CC Precident w/ chrome rims w/ an in-dash radio. He said that he's going out in style and getting to his ball before anybody else even gets close I was seriously considering posting his swing on the other thread becasue he swings cross-handed (left hand low) and hits a smoking cut. They don't make'em like this guy anymore...tells me stories of Hogan, Snead, Venturi, etc. all the time and when he looks at my Hogan sequence on the wall he always says the only thing wrong with Hogan's swing is his grip
[/quote]


LOL......I LUV those type of guy's.......they've ALWAYS got a "story".....and it's usually funny and/or teaches a lesson (IF a person LISTENS)......I use to play with a big indian fellow from OK when I was an am......he could knock all hell from it......I've also played with a lil' black fella' from LA, Albert Cruise (sp), and he CAN play.......REALLY play at times........good guy too.......hell, MOST kid's will naturally grip a golf club "cross handed" anyway, so I guess it's the most natural way to swing a club.......I probably should start "investigating it"......hehehehe......I use to be able to strike a golf ball a LOT of different ways, but, "cross handed" ain't one of em'...

[Swingtheclub]

LOL......I LUV those type of guy's.......they've ALWAYS got a "story".....and it's usually funny and/or teaches a lesson (IF a person LISTENS)......I use to play with a big indian fellow from OK when I was an am......he could knock all hell from it......I've also played with a lil' black fella' from LA, Albert Cruise (sp), and he CAN play.......REALLY play at times........good guy too.......hell, MOST kid's will naturally grip a golf club "cross handed" anyway, so I guess it's the most natural way to swing a club.......I probably should start "investigating it"......hehehehe......I use to be able to strike a golf ball a LOT of different ways, but, "cross handed" ain't one of em'...

I could hit it crosshanded when I was a kid I grew up around a duded that played that way we used to mess around with it.


Another thing come on Slice 48 aint even potty trained when it comes to old. You aint even in my league.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='kenk7us2002' post='810747' date='Dec 3 2007, 08:24 AM']LOL......I LUV those type of guy's.......they've ALWAYS got a "story".....and it's usually funny and/or teaches a lesson (IF a person LISTENS)......I use to play with a big indian fellow from OK when I was an am......he could knock all hell from it......I've also played with a lil' black fella' from LA, Albert Cruise (sp), and he CAN play.......REALLY play at times........good guy too.......hell, MOST kid's will naturally grip a golf club "cross handed" anyway, so I guess it's the most natural way to swing a club.......I probably should start "investigating it"......hehehehe......I use to be able to strike a golf ball a LOT of different ways, but, "cross handed" ain't one of em'...

I could hit it crosshanded when I was a kid I grew up around a duded that played that way we used to mess around with it.


Another thing come on Slice 48 aint even potty trained when it comes to old. You aint even in my league.[/quote]


(actually 46....chronologically anyway.......hehehehe)

[btk_1]

Here's a Hogan slomo iron swing from "In Pursuit of Perfection" video - found it on YouTube...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-CreBqV52w"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C-CreBqV52w[/url]

[jeffy]

Here are some stills from the only face-on clip of Hogan with an iron that I have found that is shot from a decent camera angle (it can be found on the Jim McLean/Golf Channel Hogan video). It is from the 1959 Colonial. That is significant because Trolio believes, after examining all the Hogan clips he can find, that the "missing piece" is more visible in swings made while playing in or preparing for a competition.

 

Address:

 

 

End of Backswing:

 

 

You can see how much his lower body has moved toward the target by comparing his right hip to the golf bag behind him.

 

In the downswing, he continues to lean left and rotates his hips left:

 

 

At impact, he is well in front of the ball, as recommended by the S&T/MORAD crowd (sorry: I don't have a graphics package to mark where the ball was):

 

 

In the follow-through, he has released his pelvis toward the target: all forward tilt is gone, replaced by a corresponding increase in side-tilt:

 

[jeffy]

In his book, Trolio relies heavily on the rare footage of Hogan shot from behind him during a practice round at the 1967 Masters. These are taken directly from the "In Pursuit of Perfection" dvd:

 

Address; the base of his spine is a little left of center, about six to eight inches inside his left heel:

 

 

Halfway back, lower body hasn't moved much:

 

 

Top; you can see how his hips have turned 45* and moved toward the target by looking at the tan pants leg in front of him. The base of his spine has shifted towards the target during the backswing, so it is now directly over a spot about two or three inches to the right of his left heel:

 

 

Halfway down, still more left and rotating. Interestingly, the base of his spine still looks to be about where it was at the top: over a spot about two or three inches inside of the left heel:

 

 

Impact; the location of the base of the spine does not appear to have moved any more than an inch further toward the target:

 

 

Follow-through, all forward tilt gone; he's so far left his right toe has been dragged a few inches toward the target, yet the base of his spine remains over a spot about two inches inside his left heel:

 

[jeffy]

The S&T golfers have to use an unnatural hip thrusting maneuver to accomplish this goal because I think that they have too much weight over the left leg at the end-backswing position (IMPO - I think that it is unnatural). Ben Hogan never performed a hip thrusting maneuver. Look how much he shifted his pelvis left-laterally at the start of the downswing before he starts to pivot left-backwards around the left leg.

 

 

Jeff.

 

This sequence appears to be one of those Trolio talks about where Hogan "deliberately" swung with a more conventional weightshift, allegedly to keep his "missing piece" secret. Interesting theory. In contrast, the sequence shot from behind at the 1967 Masters shows that his spine doesn't move much towards the target after he reaches the top of his swing.

 

I think you are totally wrong in your statement above that "Ben Hogan never performed a hip thrusting maneuver". In your sequence, what is he doing if he isn't thrusting with his hips towards the target? Mike Bennett demonstrates in the second Stack & Tilt article what a player would look like in the absence of such a move (the one on the right in the red shirt):

 

 

Obviously, Hogan doesn't look like the player on the right.

 

Perhaps the "best" example of "hip thrust" or pelvic release is Vijay Singh: practically all his forward tilt is gone by impact:

 

Impact:

 

 

Follow-through:

 

 

Of course, Vijay is not a "Stack & Tilt" student.

[Lake]

Thanks Jeffy...it's about time you came out of hibernation

[jeffy]

[quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='811038' date='Dec 3 2007, 02:54 PM']Thanks Jeffy...it's about time you came out of hibernation [/quote]

[i][b]Hibernation?[/b][/i] I was sent back to the cooler for 30 days after responding to Jeff "the Hustler" Mann's challenge...

[jeffy]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='809894' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:17 PM'].this guy has a nice swing, but, to call it "Hogan like" does Mr. Hogan a HUGE disservice IMOP.......it's basically NOTHING like Mr. Hogan.......yes, they are both swinging a golf club, but, that's about where it ends IMOP......... [/quote]

I don't have my copy with me, but I don't think Trolio claims to have a swing like Hogan's. What he has done is research Hogan's swing, much as you and many others have, and incorporated this element into his swing and his teaching. He says it has helped him and his students a lot. He also says that it ties together for him [i]Five Lessons[/i] and the 1955 [i]Life[/i] article. He points out that in [i]Five Lessons[/i], Hogan mentions more than forty times the instruction to start the downswing by turning the hips to the left. In contrast, Hogan only mentions three times weight transfer towards the target, and, in those instances, Hogan never says explicitly WHEN the weight transfer occurs. Trolio offers some reasons why such a glaring omission might have been made but, of course, he's just speculating.

[Lake]

[quote name='jeffy' post='811105' date='Dec 3 2007, 02:41 PM'][quote name='lakewoodgcc' post='811038' date='Dec 3 2007, 02:54 PM']Thanks Jeffy...it's about time you came out of hibernation [/quote]

[i][b]Hibernation?[/b][/i] I was sent back to the cooler for 30 days after responding to Jeff "the Hustler" Mann's challenge...
[/quote]

Ohhh . I didn't know it reached that level...I remember a high $ challenge of some sort w/ alleged handicaps flying around but didn't realize there was any penalty box time Anyways...glad your back...the different perspectives on this forum make it my fav!!

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='jeffy' post='811184' date='Dec 3 2007, 04:59 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='809894' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:17 PM'].this guy has a nice swing, but, to call it "Hogan like" does Mr. Hogan a HUGE disservice IMOP.......it's basically NOTHING like Mr. Hogan.......yes, they are both swinging a golf club, but, that's about where it ends IMOP......... [/quote]

I don't have my copy with me, but I don't think Trolio claims to have a swing like Hogan's. What he has done is research Hogan's swing, much as you and many others have, and incorporated this element into his swing and his teaching. He says it has helped him and his students a lot. He also says that it ties together for him [i]Five Lessons[/i] and the 1955 [i]Life[/i] article. He points out that in [i]Five Lessons[/i] ,Hogan mentions more than forty times the instruction to start the downswing by turning the hips to the left. In contrast, Hogan only mentions three times weight transfer towards the target, and, in those instances, Hogan never says explicitly WHEN the weight transfer occurs. Trolio offers some reasons why such a glaring omission might have been made but, of course, he's just speculating.
[/quote]

As I said earlier, IMO, Hogan didn't mention the "slide" because he didn't like it and didn't teach it to others. John Schlee (his student for 4 years) is the best testament to that. So much so that Schlee advocated starting from essentially impact fix in his book "Maximum Golf" (as I understand it since I've never been able to procure a copy). Hogan only said in 5 lessons "there must be enough lateral motion to get onto the left pivot point." As you said, barely makes note of it because IMO he didn't want much lateral motion in the swing. And Hogan was harshly critical of his own swing stating "I [i][b]know[/b][/i] I didn't have the best swing, I had to outwork the other fellows." Was he just being modest? No one will ever know.

The most significant glaring omission IMO in 5 lessons is that he did not include any talk of left forearm pronation and left wrist cupping when he had revealed it two years earlier in the Life article. That left forearm pronation is a significant contributor to Hogan getting on [b]his[/b] pane of glass [b]repeatably[/b]. There are several other errors and omissions in 5 lessons IMO that take some "digging" from other sources to uncover, like the role of the left arm, the grip strength vs. grip procedure and the contradicting sketches, the fact that he was far below the pane of glass depicted in the sketches, how he released the club, the sketch in the summary section showing square shoulders at impact. I could go on.

Hogan was very sly, but to claim that he deliberately changed his swing when the cameras were rolling I find to be completely preposterous. That hip sliding move is very clearly seen (quite prominently) in the high speed film shot in 1965 for Shell's WWoG of him hitting a driver. He even gave a little lesson before that swing clip that emphasized the movement of the lower body first in the downswing. To paraphrase "The most important part of the swing is the movement of the lower body from the top of the swing." "Poor players start by moving the shoulders first and hit the outside of the ball. You have to start down below with the knees the hips to hit the back of the ball, let me demonstrate." He also [i][b]invited[/b][/i] Clem Darricott behind the ropes at the '67 Masters to film his swing. Hardly the actions of a man trying to hide his "secret."

[jeffy]

[quote name='hoganfan924' post='811242' date='Dec 3 2007, 05:49 PM'][quote name='jeffy' post='811184' date='Dec 3 2007, 04:59 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='809894' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:17 PM'].this guy has a nice swing, but, to call it "Hogan like" does Mr. Hogan a HUGE disservice IMOP.......it's basically NOTHING like Mr. Hogan.......yes, they are both swinging a golf club, but, that's about where it ends IMOP......... [/quote]

I don't have my copy with me, but I don't think Trolio claims to have a swing like Hogan's. What he has done is research Hogan's swing, much as you and many others have, and incorporated this element into his swing and his teaching. He says it has helped him and his students a lot. He also says that it ties together for him [i]Five Lessons[/i] and the 1955 [i]Life[/i] article. He points out that in [i]Five Lessons[/i] ,Hogan mentions more than forty times the instruction to start the downswing by turning the hips to the left. In contrast, Hogan only mentions three times weight transfer towards the target, and, in those instances, Hogan never says explicitly WHEN the weight transfer occurs. Trolio offers some reasons why such a glaring omission might have been made but, of course, he's just speculating.
[/quote]

As I said earlier, IMO, Hogan didn't mention the "slide" because he didn't like it and didn't teach it to others. John Schlee (his student for 4 years) is the best testament to that. So much so that Schlee advocated starting from essentially impact fix in his book "Maximum Golf" (as I understand it since I've never been able to procure a copy). Hogan only said in 5 lessons "there must be enough lateral motion to get onto the left pivot point." As you said, barely makes note of it because IMO he didn't want much lateral motion in the swing. And Hogan was harshly critical of his own swing stating "I [i][b]know[/b][/i] I didn't have the best swing, I had to outwork the other fellows." Was he just being modest? No one will ever know.

The most significant glaring omission IMO in 5 lessons is that he did not include any talk of left forearm pronation and left wrist cupping when he had revealed it two years earlier in the Life article. That left forearm pronation is a significant contributor to Hogan getting on [b]his[/b] pane of glass [b]repeatably[/b]. There are several other errors and omissions in 5 lessons IMO that take some "digging" from other sources to uncover, like the role of the left arm, the grip strength vs. grip procedure and the contradicting sketches, the fact that he was far below the pane of glass depicted in the sketches, how he released the club, the sketch in the summary section showing square shoulders at impact. I could go on.

Hogan was very sly, but to claim that he deliberately changed his swing when the cameras were rolling I find to be completely preposterous. That hip sliding move is very clearly seen (quite prominently) in the high speed film shot in 1965 for Shell's WWoG of him hitting a driver. He even gave a little lesson before that swing clip that emphasized the movement of the lower body first in the downswing. To paraphrase "The most important part of the swing is the movement of the lower body from the top of the swing." "Poor players start by moving the shoulders first and hit the outside of the ball. You have to start down below with the knees the hips to hit the back of the ball, let me demonstrate." He also [i][b]invited[/b][/i] Clem Darricott behind the ropes at the '67 Masters to film his swing. Hardly the actions of a man trying to hide his "secret."
[/quote]

Interesting thought that Hogan didn't want any lateral movement, but that isn't supported by the Schlee book. Schlee goes on at length about how important Hogan thought it was to get left to generate speed in the downswing: the more, and the sooner, the better. BTW, in [i]Maximum Golf[/i], Schlee has kind of a unique way of executing the weight shift, but I won't go into it now.

I don't take Hogan's self-criticisms very seriously. I think those comments, that only started to appear well after his playing days were over, was his way of saying "gee, just think of what I would have accomplished if I hadn't been in that damn accident". All the accounts of the time were worshipful of his ball-striking [b]AFTER[/b] the accident. If he had made those comments in the '50's, everyone would have just laughed and shaken their heads.

Regarding the lesson segment of the Shell match, if Trolio is right, then Hogan would have "disguised" his swing in the lesson segment. I'll take a closer look, but I see more "slide" in the downswing then the backswing in that clip. BTW, Hogan saying to "start" the downswing with the lower body is the same as what is in [i]Five Lessons [/i], so that doesn't contradict anything Trolio is saying.

As far as Clem Darracott goes, I doubt it ever crossed Hogan's mind that some guy's home movie would wind up on every golf nut's shelf.

Again, I'm not saying Trolio is right on this, but he does have a case.

[Lake]

This guys dad was the first golf professional in Texas. He is 84 years old, a Hall of Famer, and won 17 PGA Tour titles including The 56' Master's and PGA. Also he's been a club professional for the last fifty years at a club that only accepts applicants that truly have a passion for the game(players) & there are no handicaps...from what I've heard/read/seen of this guy he is my idol. This is what he thinks of Mr. Hogan's secrets:

"Over the year's I've heard him(Hogan) describe hundreds of swing thoughts and ideas he was working on at a given moment. Each one of these ideas was extremely important to him at the time."

"The adjustments Ben made were, above all else, his fundamentals. He understood that every golfer is different. A fundamental is simply an idea that works for you. It may or may not have something to do with your grip, stance, or address position. It is merely something that is so critical that you're a markedly better player when you use it. You don't need to adhere to the fundamentals the way another person-even Ben Hogan-has defined them."

Jackie Burke, Jr.
[u][/u]It's Only a Game[u][/u]

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='jeffy' post='811306' date='Dec 3 2007, 07:00 PM'][quote name='hoganfan924' post='811242' date='Dec 3 2007, 05:49 PM'][quote name='jeffy' post='811184' date='Dec 3 2007, 04:59 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='809894' date='Dec 2 2007, 12:17 PM'].this guy has a nice swing, but, to call it "Hogan like" does Mr. Hogan a HUGE disservice IMOP.......it's basically NOTHING like Mr. Hogan.......yes, they are both swinging a golf club, but, that's about where it ends IMOP......... [/quote]

I don't have my copy with me, but I don't think Trolio claims to have a swing like Hogan's. What he has done is research Hogan's swing, much as you and many others have, and incorporated this element into his swing and his teaching. He says it has helped him and his students a lot. He also says that it ties together for him [i]Five Lessons[/i] and the 1955 [i]Life[/i] article. He points out that in [i]Five Lessons[/i] ,Hogan mentions more than forty times the instruction to start the downswing by turning the hips to the left. In contrast, Hogan only mentions three times weight transfer towards the target, and, in those instances, Hogan never says explicitly WHEN the weight transfer occurs. Trolio offers some reasons why such a glaring omission might have been made but, of course, he's just speculating.
[/quote]

As I said earlier, IMO, Hogan didn't mention the "slide" because he didn't like it and didn't teach it to others. John Schlee (his student for 4 years) is the best testament to that. So much so that Schlee advocated starting from essentially impact fix in his book "Maximum Golf" (as I understand it since I've never been able to procure a copy). Hogan only said in 5 lessons "there must be enough lateral motion to get onto the left pivot point." As you said, barely makes note of it because IMO he didn't want much lateral motion in the swing. And Hogan was harshly critical of his own swing stating "I [i][b]know[/b][/i] I didn't have the best swing, I had to outwork the other fellows." Was he just being modest? No one will ever know.

The most significant glaring omission IMO in 5 lessons is that he did not include any talk of left forearm pronation and left wrist cupping when he had revealed it two years earlier in the Life article. That left forearm pronation is a significant contributor to Hogan getting on [b]his[/b] pane of glass [b]repeatably[/b]. There are several other errors and omissions in 5 lessons IMO that take some "digging" from other sources to uncover, like the role of the left arm, the grip strength vs. grip procedure and the contradicting sketches, the fact that he was far below the pane of glass depicted in the sketches, how he released the club, the sketch in the summary section showing square shoulders at impact. I could go on.

Hogan was very sly, but to claim that he deliberately changed his swing when the cameras were rolling I find to be completely preposterous. That hip sliding move is very clearly seen (quite prominently) in the high speed film shot in 1965 for Shell's WWoG of him hitting a driver. He even gave a little lesson before that swing clip that emphasized the movement of the lower body first in the downswing. To paraphrase "The most important part of the swing is the movement of the lower body from the top of the swing." "Poor players start by moving the shoulders first and hit the outside of the ball. You have to start down below with the knees the hips to hit the back of the ball, let me demonstrate." He also [i][b]invited[/b][/i] Clem Darricott behind the ropes at the '67 Masters to film his swing. Hardly the actions of a man trying to hide his "secret."
[/quote]

Interesting thought that Hogan didn't want any lateral movement, but that isn't supported by the Schlee book. Schlee goes on at length about how important Hogan thought it was to get left to generate speed in the downswing: the more, and the sooner, the better. BTW, in [i]Maximum Golf[/i], Schlee has kind of a unique way of executing the weight shift, but I won't go into it now.

I don't take Hogan's self-criticisms very seriously. I think those comments, that only started to appear well after his playing days were over, was his way of saying "gee, just think of what I would have accomplished if I hadn't been in that damn accident". All the accounts of the time were worshipful of his ball-striking [b]AFTER[/b] the accident. If he had made those comments in the '50's, everyone would have just laughed and shaken their heads.

Regarding the lesson segment of the Shell match, if Trolio is right, then Hogan would have "disguised" his swing in the lesson segment. I'll take a closer look, but I see more "slide" in the downswing then the backswing in that clip. BTW, Hogan saying to "start" the downswing with the lower body is the same as what is in [i]Five Lessons [/i], so that doesn't contradict anything Trolio is saying.

As far as Clem Darracott goes, I doubt it ever crossed Hogan's mind that some guy's home movie would wind up on every golf nut's shelf.

Again, I'm not saying Trolio is right on this, but he does have a case.
[/quote]

Jeffy,

We're probably splitting hairs at this point. I didn't say or even imply that Hogan didn't want [b]any[/b] lateral motion, just not [b]much[/b]. Pg. 90 of 5 lessons, exactly as printed including bolding: "To begin the downswing, TURN YOUR HIPS BACK TO THE LEFT. THERE MUST BE ENOUGH LATERAL MOTION FORWARD TO TRANSFER THE WEIGHT TO THE LEFT FOOT."

Don't forget the 1956 Mexico City footage either. Excellent home movie from several different angles that shows the same "slide." No attempt to disguise it is apparent to me.

Hogan's lateral move certainly isn't a "secret" to anyone who's spent any reasonable amount of time looking at Hogan footage. In fact, I describe this in great detail in the original S&T thread in this post:

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=86690&st=360&p=591106&#entry591106"]http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?sh...mp;#entry591106[/url]

[b]Nine frames [/b]of lateral motion in the Shell footage before I notice any hip rotation. Certainly no attempt to disguise anything.

The evidence that this move was his "secret" IMO is weak, especially considering that there's just as good, or better evidence that Hogan didn't even like this aspect of his swing.

[rony]

Ben Hogan's secret was: He found what worked for him. Now......Everybody else that plays golf.....Find out what works for you. Then you can have your very own secret too.

[slicefixer]

Jeffy, I've NEVER said Mr. Hogan's swing didn't contain "lateral motion".......NOR have I ever said that he didn't have a "cg shift" (kinda' like that term ) in his swing.......what I HAVE said is this, Mr. Hogan's "cg shift" served to get him into a fantastic top of the backswing position where, once completed, he could basically just "unwind left" (and you CAN get to the same top of the backswing position as Mr. Hogan WITHOUT a "cg shift"....THAT i can GUARANTEE YOU).......AND that, in Mr. Hogan's case, the "cg shift" occurred during his BACKSWING and was a necessity to OVERCOME his tendency to set up with a "high right hip" which made it impossible to simply TURN to the top of the backswing position he desired..........as for the high right hip and the amount of "cg shift" they both varied during his career........and BOTH of which are NOT necessities in order to make the same DOWNSWING as Mr. Hogan demonstrated (which, IMOP, is what is REALLY important about Mr. Hogan's golf swing)....and I KNOW this is true 100% .....in other words, he HAD to make the BACKSWING "cg shift" in order to arrive in a position at the conclusion of this backswing where he could simply "unwind" WITHOUT a lot of lateral drive being necessary in his TRANSITION.......and the amount of "cg shift" varied according to "how high his right hip was set up in his SET UP........as for the "conspiracy theory" of Mr. Hogan "hiding" his "secret move" when practicing.......LOL.........I guess it makes an interesting theory, but, so does the CIA blowing up the Pentagon on 9/11........and another thing, I've NEVER understood the fascination with Snead's golf swing, GREAT RHYTHM, TIMING, FANTASTIC ATHLETICISM, but, the man played varying degrees of a PULL his entire career......mostly a PULL FADE.....and certainly wasn't in Hogan's league for virtual TOTAL control over a golf ball.........IMOP (and apparantly almost all of their peers too)...............

BTW, I'm about through debating Mr. Hogan's "secret" as we all know that there is NO definitive answer......it appears the man took it to his grave........I sure as hell don't think he told his shag boy and NOT Burke, Dickinson, Schlee, Byrum, etc........and IF Gardner knew he took it to his grave.......Schlee too apparantly........Mr. Burke's never said, in fact, if you ask him he'll just chuckle..........and Tommy Byrum doesn't know either........etc. etc.

[jeffy]

[quote name='slicefixer' post='811441' date='Dec 3 2007, 09:01 PM']Jeffy, I've NEVER said Mr. Hogan's swing didn't contain "lateral motion".......NOR have I ever said that he didn't have a "cg shift" (kinda' like that term ) in his swing.......what I HAVE said is this, Mr. Hogan's "cg shift" served to get him into a fantastic top of the backswing position where, once completed, he could basically just "unwind left" (and you CAN get to the same top of the backswing position as Mr. Hogan WITHOUT a "cg shift"....THAT i can GUARANTEE YOU).......AND that, in Mr. Hogan's case, the "cg shift" occurred during his BACKSWING and was a necessity to OVERCOME his tendency to set up with a "high right hip" which made it impossible to simply TURN to the top of the backswing position he desired..........as for the high right hip and the amount of "cg shift" they both varied during his career........and BOTH of which are NOT necessities in order to make the same DOWNSWING as Mr. Hogan demonstrated (which, IMOP, is what is REALLY important about Mr. Hogan's golf swing)....and I KNOW this is true 100% .....in other words, he HAD to make the BACKSWING "cg shift" in order to arrive in a position at the conclusion of this backswing where he could simply "unwind" WITHOUT a lot of lateral drive being necessary in his TRANSITION.......and the amount of "cg shift" varied according to "how high his right hip was set up in his SET UP........as for the "conspiracy theory" of Mr. Hogan "hiding" his "secret move" when practicing.......LOL.........I guess it makes an interesting theory, but, so does the CIA blowing up the Pentagon on 9/11........and another thing, I've NEVER understood the fascination with Snead's golf swing, GREAT RHYTHM, TIMING, FANTASTIC ATHLETICISM, but, the man played varying degrees of a PULL his entire career......mostly a PULL FADE.....and certainly wasn't in Hogan's league for virtual TOTAL control over a golf ball.........IMOP (and apparantly almost all of their peers too)...............

BTW, I'm about through debating Mr. Hogan's "secret" as we all know that there is NO definitive answer......it appears the man took it to his grave........I sure as hell don't think he told his shag boy and NOT Burke, Dickinson, Schlee, Byrum, etc........and IF Gardner knew he took it to his grave.......Schlee too apparantly........Mr. Burke's never said, in fact, if you ask him he'll just chuckle..........and Tommy Byrum doesn't know either........etc. etc.[/quote]

Uh, for starters, I [b]NEVER[/b] said or implied that [b]YOU[/b] wrote that "Mr. Hogan's swing didn't contain 'lateral motion'". It is Hoganfan's theory that Hogan [b]didn't want any[/b] lateral movement. I don't believe it, and, obviously, neither do you.

I interpret what you have said above to mean that you essentially agree with Trolio: that Hogan completed his targetward shift during the backswing. As I said, he has a case. For someone as astute as you to agree is quite an endorsement. As for the Oliver Stone stuff: very entertaining, but who knows?

I think you sell Sam a little short. In interviews that I have seen, both Byron Nelson and Patty Berg [b]CLEARLY[/b] thought Snead's swing was the [i]ne plus ultra[/i]. According to Dodson, Hogan thought the same thing. I've been told that there is some incredible footage of Snead hitting all the shots as laid out by Mac and MORAD. I hope to see it at the end of next week.

As far as Hogan's "secret" goes, a friend of mine (a former tour pro and multiple winner) that is very close to Bolt has told me that there was a "secret" shared with the very inner circle, but that they have all said nothing publicly, and "taken it to the grave". As you might guess, it is said to involve quite a bit of left side pull. Also, I'm told that Claude Harmon passed it on to Butch, who passed it on to Tiger. Interestingly enough, my friend tells me that 1) we should all look at Tiger's swing and forget Hogan, and 2) what Hardy teaches is superior to anything he learned from Hogan via Bolt. Very provocative, indeed.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='jeffy' post='811571' date='Dec 3 2007, 10:57 PM'][quote name='slicefixer' post='811441' date='Dec 3 2007, 09:01 PM']Jeffy, I've NEVER said Mr. Hogan's swing didn't contain "lateral motion".......NOR have I ever said that he didn't have a "cg shift" (kinda' like that term ) in his swing.......what I HAVE said is this, Mr. Hogan's "cg shift" served to get him into a fantastic top of the backswing position where, once completed, he could basically just "unwind left" (and you CAN get to the same top of the backswing position as Mr. Hogan WITHOUT a "cg shift"....THAT i can GUARANTEE YOU).......AND that, in Mr. Hogan's case, the "cg shift" occurred during his BACKSWING and was a necessity to OVERCOME his tendency to set up with a "high right hip" which made it impossible to simply TURN to the top of the backswing position he desired..........as for the high right hip and the amount of "cg shift" they both varied during his career........and BOTH of which are NOT necessities in order to make the same DOWNSWING as Mr. Hogan demonstrated (which, IMOP, is what is REALLY important about Mr. Hogan's golf swing)....and I KNOW this is true 100% .....in other words, he HAD to make the BACKSWING "cg shift" in order to arrive in a position at the conclusion of this backswing where he could simply "unwind" WITHOUT a lot of lateral drive being necessary in his TRANSITION.......and the amount of "cg shift" varied according to "how high his right hip was set up in his SET UP........as for the "conspiracy theory" of Mr. Hogan "hiding" his "secret move" when practicing.......LOL.........I guess it makes an interesting theory, but, so does the CIA blowing up the Pentagon on 9/11........and another thing, I've NEVER understood the fascination with Snead's golf swing, GREAT RHYTHM, TIMING, FANTASTIC ATHLETICISM, but, the man played varying degrees of a PULL his entire career......mostly a PULL FADE.....and certainly wasn't in Hogan's league for virtual TOTAL control over a golf ball.........IMOP (and apparantly almost all of their peers too)...............

BTW, I'm about through debating Mr. Hogan's "secret" as we all know that there is NO definitive answer......it appears the man took it to his grave........I sure as hell don't think he told his shag boy and NOT Burke, Dickinson, Schlee, Byrum, etc........and IF Gardner knew he took it to his grave.......Schlee too apparantly........Mr. Burke's never said, in fact, if you ask him he'll just chuckle..........and Tommy Byrum doesn't know either........etc. etc.[/quote]

Uh, for starters, I [b]NEVER[/b] said or implied that [b]YOU[/b] wrote that "Mr. Hogan's swing didn't contain 'lateral motion'". It is Hoganfan's theory that Hogan [b]didn't want any[/b] lateral movement. I don't believe it, and, obviously, neither do you.

I interpret what you have said above to mean that you essentially agree with Trolio: that Hogan completed his targetward shift during the backswing. As I said, he has a case. For someone as astute as you to agree is quite an endorsement. As for the Oliver Stone stuff: very entertaining, but who knows?

I think you sell Sam a little short. In interviews that I have seen, both Byron Nelson and Patty Berg [b]CLEARLY[/b] thought Snead's swing was the [i]ne plus ultra[/i]. According to Dodson, Hogan thought the same thing. I've been told that there is some incredible footage of Snead hitting all the shots as laid out by Mac and MORAD. I hope to see it at the end of next week.

As far as Hogan's "secret" goes, a friend of mine (a former tour pro and multiple winner) that is very close to Bolt has told me that there was a "secret" shared with the very inner circle, but that they have all said nothing publicly, and "taken it to the grave". As you might guess, it is said to involve quite a bit of left side pull. Also, I'm told that Claude Harmon passed it on to Butch, who passed it on to Tiger. Interestingly enough, my friend tells me that 1) we should all look at Tiger's swing and forget Hogan, and 2) what Hardy teaches is superior to anything he learned from Hogan via Bolt. Very provocative, indeed.
[/quote]

Jeffy,

You sure are the master of the "creative misinterpretation!," Or at least you're trying to be. I addressed this in my above post which you choose to ignore and put words in my mouth again that I didn't say.

To state that Slicefixer would "endorse" Trolio's conclusions just because they observe the same motion (which again, I described months ago and linked to above) is pretty funny. Slicefixer has cleary explained his disagreement with Trolio's conclusions. Nice try, but you're not fooling anyone here.

Concerning Trolio's conspiracy theory about Hogan swinging differently when the cameras were around is just an indication to me of sloppy detective work. Virtually every piece of post accident video footage I've seen (1956 Mexico City, 1955 US Open, 1965 WWoG, 1967 Pursuit of Perfection and many others) show this lateral move. The amount of lateral certainly varied based on what club he was hitting and over time, but to claim he didn't do it when the cameras were rolling just isn't supported by the film evidence.

As far as the "left side pull" being a secret, umm, just read the Nick Seitz interview which became the new forward to Golf Digests 1985 edition of 5 lessons, Hogan states among other things (I'm paraphrasing since I don't have it in front of me) "You have to do it with the left arm." Also very evident in the film footage. Big secret!!!