I know jacked lofts has been done to death...

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @Im_A_Savage said:

> > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > @tobybear said:

> > > > > If it wasn't for the lower lofts these would just go WAY too high. The speed off these faces and the spin created by the tech means that they need to do this to hit the proper launch windows - for the target player.

> > > >

> > > > This.

> > > >

> > > > I’m amazed that as golf crazy posters here are that they can’t get this through their thick heads and stop whining about “jacked lofts.”

> > > >

> > > > Wise up, people and then shut up about this issue.

> > >

> > > Wrong.

> > >

> > > I also think it's disrespectful to tell the OP to "shut up about this issue."

> >

> > Wrong?

> >

> > And if you read appropriately you’ll see I wasn’t telling the OP to shut up.

>

>

> Yes, wrong.

>

> And you did indeed tell the OP to shut up.

 

And how was I and the person I quoted wrong?

 

As far as the shut up comment, I can’t help you read so you’re out of luck there.

[Steele47]

What a maverick!

[rgk5]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @rgk5 said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > Yes, I totally agree that your complaint has been done to death.

> > > >

> > > > Heaven forfend some guy might think he hits his 8-iron longer than you because of "jacked lofts". There outta be a law!

> > >

> > > It's not a d*ck measuring contest. I don't have many times when I'm hitting more club than those I play with though unless it's a strategic little chippy fade or something. My 8 iron stops dead on it's stock 160 carry and I know it hits that number if I put a decent move on the ball. Most of my playing partners using these jacked lofts that "go so high and spin so much" can't hold the hard greens we play.

> >

> > Your iBlades are at least one club stronger than the Macgregor Tommy Armour 985s or the Golfcraft Continentals I played in 1967. I'll also bet your car has 100 more HP than my late Dad's 1964 Chev Biscayne six cylinder. So, your point is that those using strong lofted clubs should give them up because you don't like their choice of equipment?

> > Try concentrating on something important in your life.

>

> Again, no d*ck measuring contest at all. My point is I don't think that kind of club is helping people as much as some believe. Everyone can play what they want, I just don't think "game improvement" is all that game improvement.

 

As a Certified Custom Fitter for Callaway, Ping, Titleist, Mizuno and Taylor Made for the last 16 years, I'll give you the short version of why stronger lofts help people. Most of the average middle to high handicappers flip the club before impact thereby increasing dynamic loft. If lofts were traditional, eg. the PW being 46-48*, that coupled with the lower COG in SGI irons, would cause the ball to go unbearably short. Stronger lofts allow the average chopper to get 135-140 yards from his 7-iron otherwise it would be ultra spinny travelling less than 120.

Egos need to be massaged even in the best of strikers.

[NRJyzr]

> @rgk5 said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @rgk5 said:

> > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > Yes, I totally agree that your complaint has been done to death.

> > > > >

> > > > > Heaven forfend some guy might think he hits his 8-iron longer than you because of "jacked lofts". There outta be a law!

> > > >

> > > > It's not a d*ck measuring contest. I don't have many times when I'm hitting more club than those I play with though unless it's a strategic little chippy fade or something. My 8 iron stops dead on it's stock 160 carry and I know it hits that number if I put a decent move on the ball. Most of my playing partners using these jacked lofts that "go so high and spin so much" can't hold the hard greens we play.

> > >

> > > Your iBlades are at least one club stronger than the Macgregor Tommy Armour 985s or the Golfcraft Continentals I played in 1967. I'll also bet your car has 100 more HP than my late Dad's 1964 Chev Biscayne six cylinder. So, your point is that those using strong lofted clubs should give them up because you don't like their choice of equipment?

> > > Try concentrating on something important in your life.

> >

> > Again, no d*ck measuring contest at all. My point is I don't think that kind of club is helping people as much as some believe. Everyone can play what they want, I just don't think "game improvement" is all that game improvement.

>

> As a Certified Custom Fitter for Callaway, Ping, Titleist, Mizuno and Taylor Made for the last 16 years, I'll give you the short version of why stronger lofts help people. Most of the average middle to high handicappers flip the club before impact thereby increasing dynamic loft. If lofts were traditional, eg. the PW being 46-48*, that coupled with the lower COG in SGI irons, would cause the ball to go unbearably short. Stronger lofts allow the average chopper to get 135-140 yards from his 7-iron otherwise it would be ultra spinny travelling less than 120.

> Egos need to be massaged even in the best of strikers.

 

 

They're not actually gaining distance, they're only being deceived into thinking they are. (Not appreciably different than what you're saying)

 

If you put an udder on a pig, it's still a pig. Change the 6 to an 8 on a 36* club, it's still a 36* club.

[tobiasjd]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @tobiasjd said:

> > > @BlkNGld said:

> > > Regardless of what someone's opinion is on this and what many say, it's pretty clear from comments that the vast majority of players want the possibility of more distance, and that 1 of 10 shots on the demo that is flushed will carry the day over 8 of 10 solid shots.

> > >

> > > What golfers buy will persuade OEMs way more than what golfers say.

> >

> > I just think it's a backwards way to addressing the problem. The real problem with lack of distance is on approach shots into the green. The best way to address not having enough distance for manageable approach shots is to play the correct tees. It doesn't help having a 27° iron into the green instead of a 34° iron. So, it's not really solving the problem.

>

> ???

>

> So you think other people have the wrong numbers stamped on the sole of their irons AND they are playing the wrong tees. Is there anything else about other people's golf games that you need to 'splain to them?

>

> Truly amazing how many "problems" arise from stamping a 7 on a club that used to be stamped with a 6.

 

Didn’t mean to imply stamping on a club introduces problems. It doesn’t really change much of anything actually. That’s the point.

[rgk5]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @rgk5 said:

> > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > @rgk5 said:

> > > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > Yes, I totally agree that your complaint has been done to death.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Heaven forfend some guy might think he hits his 8-iron longer than you because of "jacked lofts". There outta be a law!

> > > > >

> > > > > It's not a d*ck measuring contest. I don't have many times when I'm hitting more club than those I play with though unless it's a strategic little chippy fade or something. My 8 iron stops dead on it's stock 160 carry and I know it hits that number if I put a decent move on the ball. Most of my playing partners using these jacked lofts that "go so high and spin so much" can't hold the hard greens we play.

> > > >

> > > > Your iBlades are at least one club stronger than the Macgregor Tommy Armour 985s or the Golfcraft Continentals I played in 1967. I'll also bet your car has 100 more HP than my late Dad's 1964 Chev Biscayne six cylinder. So, your point is that those using strong lofted clubs should give them up because you don't like their choice of equipment?

> > > > Try concentrating on something important in your life.

> > >

> > > Again, no d*ck measuring contest at all. My point is I don't think that kind of club is helping people as much as some believe. Everyone can play what they want, I just don't think "game improvement" is all that game improvement.

> >

> > As a Certified Custom Fitter for Callaway, Ping, Titleist, Mizuno and Taylor Made for the last 16 years, I'll give you the short version of why stronger lofts help people. Most of the average middle to high handicappers flip the club before impact thereby increasing dynamic loft. If lofts were traditional, eg. the PW being 46-48*, that coupled with the lower COG in SGI irons, would cause the ball to go unbearably short. Stronger lofts allow the average chopper to get 135-140 yards from his 7-iron otherwise it would be ultra spinny travelling less than 120.

> > Egos need to be massaged even in the best of strikers.

>

>

> They're not actually gaining distance, they're only being deceived into thinking they are. (Not appreciably different than what you're saying)

>

> If you put an udder on a pig, it's still a pig. Change the 6 to an 8 on a 36* club, it's still a 36* club.

 

Correct, BUT, if they think they are, it can can improve confidence and accuracy with the 1/2" shorter shaft length. I've seen it in hundreds of fittings over the last 4-5 years.

[MtlJeff]

> @KMo23 said:

> I’ve played 6 rounds of golf this year and haven’t once asked someone I was playing with what club they used or were going to use to hit the shot. I don’t think anyone’s asked me either.

>

> I’d love to play a set of these and beat the OP like a drum while yelling out what # club I just hit for each shot.

>

> Get a life people.

 

I dont know that it's always about that for most people. I dont like when sets bunch irons at the bottom (21 degree 5 iron for example) and then have wider gaps in the scoring clubs. But that's how sets seem to be trending. Tighter bunches in clubs you hit less and with less accuracy anyway. I'm not sure the value in having 3 irons with lofts less than say 23 degrees. It's a waste of irons imo

[Red4282]

> @rgk5 said:

> > @NRJyzr said:

> > > @rgk5 said:

> > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > @rgk5 said:

> > > > > > @balls_deep said:

> > > > > > > @"North Butte" said:

> > > > > > > Yes, I totally agree that your complaint has been done to death.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Heaven forfend some guy might think he hits his 8-iron longer than you because of "jacked lofts". There outta be a law!

> > > > > >

> > > > > > It's not a d*ck measuring contest. I don't have many times when I'm hitting more club than those I play with though unless it's a strategic little chippy fade or something. My 8 iron stops dead on it's stock 160 carry and I know it hits that number if I put a decent move on the ball. Most of my playing partners using these jacked lofts that "go so high and spin so much" can't hold the hard greens we play.

> > > > >

> > > > > Your iBlades are at least one club stronger than the Macgregor Tommy Armour 985s or the Golfcraft Continentals I played in 1967. I'll also bet your car has 100 more HP than my late Dad's 1964 Chev Biscayne six cylinder. So, your point is that those using strong lofted clubs should give them up because you don't like their choice of equipment?

> > > > > Try concentrating on something important in your life.

> > > >

> > > > Again, no d*ck measuring contest at all. My point is I don't think that kind of club is helping people as much as some believe. Everyone can play what they want, I just don't think "game improvement" is all that game improvement.

> > >

> > > As a Certified Custom Fitter for Callaway, Ping, Titleist, Mizuno and Taylor Made for the last 16 years, I'll give you the short version of why stronger lofts help people. Most of the average middle to high handicappers flip the club before impact thereby increasing dynamic loft. If lofts were traditional, eg. the PW being 46-48*, that coupled with the lower COG in SGI irons, would cause the ball to go unbearably short. Stronger lofts allow the average chopper to get 135-140 yards from his 7-iron otherwise it would be ultra spinny travelling less than 120.

> > > Egos need to be massaged even in the best of strikers.

> >

> >

> > They're not actually gaining distance, they're only being deceived into thinking they are. (Not appreciably different than what you're saying)

> >

> > If you put an udder on a pig, it's still a pig. Change the 6 to an 8 on a 36* club, it's still a 36* club.

>

> Correct, BUT, if they think they are, it can can improve confidence and accuracy with the 1/2" shorter shaft length. I've seen it in hundreds of fittings over the last 4-5 years.

 

So why not just build a traditional set 1/2 inch shorter than standard. Still doesnt change the fact that with the stronger loft sets you will need more wedges, with a tradional set, not so much but may need to address gap after the 3/4/5 iron. Its all marketing gimmock... created by box stores with launch monitors.

[rgk5]

The 1/2" shorter set will reduce swing and ball speed. Created by box stores? I do not recall any box stores designing clubs.

[Red4282]

 

> The 1/2" shorter set will reduce swing and ball speed. Created by box stores? I do not recall any box stores designing clubs.

 

Huh? They are BOTH 1/2 shorter... so if strong lofted 8 equals weaker lofted 7, both would be same length and loft. There is no difference now other than the number. As for big box stores, what i mean by that is naive consumer goes in to test clubs and launch monitor tells him hes hitting club A way farther than club b therefore it must be superior.

 

 

[phatchrisrules]

> @Red4282 said:

>

> > The 1/2" shorter set will reduce swing and ball speed. Created by box stores? I do not recall any box stores designing clubs.

>

> Huh? They are BOTH 1/2 shorter... so if strong lofted 8 equals weaker lofted 7, both would be same length and loft. There is no difference now other than the number. As for big box stores, w**hat i mean by that is naive consumer goes in to test clubs and launch monitor tells him hes hitting club A way farther than club b therefore it must be superior.**

>

>

 

Who cares? Naive customer is probably buying Taylormade or Callaway anyways because that is what they see on TV. Naive customer is not doing a fitting.

 

Jesus people, dynamic loft is a thing, look it up. You also act like it is impossible to bend something weak or ordering the correct clubs for that player is unheard of. If I have a 7i with 30* of static loft and then a 6i at 26* but struggle to hit something with less loft than that I probably have a 22-23* hybrid as my next club anyway. I've performed more fittings this week than most people go through in their entire lives, I know what I am talking about. You get on a launch monitor once and watch one Rick Shiels video and suddenly everyone is a tour van fitter. :#

[Valtiel]

> @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > > @tobybear said:

> > > > > > If it wasn't for the lower lofts these would just go WAY too high. The speed off these faces and the spin created by the tech means that they need to do this to hit the proper launch windows - for the target player.

> > > > >

> > > > > This.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’m amazed that as golf crazy posters here are that they can’t get this through their thick heads and stop whining about “jacked lofts.”

> > > > >

> > > > > Wise up, people and then shut up about this issue.

> > > >

> > > > Wrong.

> > > >

> > > > I also think it's disrespectful to tell the OP to "shut up about this issue."

> > >

> > > Wrong?

> > >

> > > And if you read appropriately you’ll see I wasn’t telling the OP to shut up.

> >

> >

> > Yes, wrong.

> >

> > And you did indeed tell the OP to shut up.

>

> And how was I and the person I quoted wrong?

>

> As far as the shut up comment, I can’t help you read so you’re out of luck there.

 

You and the person you quoted are wrong because the tech has been discussed and the marketing has been debunked. I too believed the whole story of "the lofts need to be stronger otherwise they would go too high with new tech etc etc" but Tom Wishon has pointed out that this simply isn't true. CG location has not moved which was the original claim (that the CG was now too low and lofts had to be strengthened to bring down flight) and there is no new tech that somehow creates insane amounts of spin difference. It is marketing, plain and simple. The target audience for these clubs are the now aging golf population that are slowing down and to a lesser extent the more ego driven players that simply want to think they are longer. Jacked lofts ARE a solution to a problem, but not the one they claim. They invented this idea of the launch problem and sold the public a solution that just so happens to conveniently increase distance. Misleading marketing is not exactly a shocking concept.

 

As for the topic at hand, I really don't care about jacked lofts because they don't affect me. My set is built around the gapping of a 48* PW and a 21* 3-ironi and modern jacked up lofts don't change that. The people buying these sets are no "threat" to me either because I don't care how far they hit it because irons are a consistency game, not a distance one. Plus, there is only so far this can be pushed. You'll never have a 16* 5-iron because the average joe wouldn't be able to hit it and technology will never change that.

 

There is one area that I have actually appreciated the change and that is in long irons as driving iron replacements. I have a Taylormade M2 Tour 3-iron that is 18.5*, so it is a 2-iron. I play it at 2-iron length and I like the smaller head, plus the few extra grams of headweight makes hitting my target swing weight easier.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @Valtiel said:

> > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > > > @tobybear said:

> > > > > > > If it wasn't for the lower lofts these would just go WAY too high. The speed off these faces and the spin created by the tech means that they need to do this to hit the proper launch windows - for the target player.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I’m amazed that as golf crazy posters here are that they can’t get this through their thick heads and stop whining about “jacked lofts.”

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wise up, people and then shut up about this issue.

> > > > >

> > > > > Wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > I also think it's disrespectful to tell the OP to "shut up about this issue."

> > > >

> > > > Wrong?

> > > >

> > > > And if you read appropriately you’ll see I wasn’t telling the OP to shut up.

> > >

> > >

> > > Yes, wrong.

> > >

> > > And you did indeed tell the OP to shut up.

> >

> > And how was I and the person I quoted wrong?

> >

> > As far as the shut up comment, I can’t help you read so you’re out of luck there.

>

> You and the person you quoted are wrong because the tech has been discussed and the marketing has been debunked. I too believed the whole story of "the lofts need to be stronger otherwise they would go too high with new tech etc etc" but Tom Wishon has pointed out that this simply isn't true. CG location has not moved which was the original claim (that the CG was now too low and lofts had to be strengthened to bring down flight) and there is no new tech that somehow creates insane amounts of spin difference. It is marketing, plain and simple. The target audience for these clubs are the now aging golf population that are slowing down and to a lesser extent the more ego driven players that simply want to think they are longer. Jacked lofts ARE a solution to a problem, but not the one they claim. They invented this idea of the launch problem and sold the public a solution that just so happens to conveniently increase distance. Misleading marketing is not exactly a shocking concept.

>

> As for the topic at hand, I really don't care about jacked lofts because they don't affect me. My set is built around the gapping of a 48* PW and a 21* 3-ironi and modern jacked up lofts don't change that. The people buying these sets are no "threat" to me either because I don't care how far they hit it because irons are a consistency game, not a distance one. Plus, there is only so far this can be pushed. You'll never have a 16* 5-iron because the average joe wouldn't be able to hit it and technology will never change that.

>

> There is one area that I have actually appreciated the change and that is in long irons as driving iron replacements. I have a Taylormade M2 Tour 3-iron that is 18.5*, so it is a 2-iron. I play it at 2-iron length and I like the smaller head, plus the few extra grams of headweight makes hitting my target swing weight easier.

 

I’ve not seen anything that would definitively prove that lower CG doesn’t affect launch and spin. I’m not saying you’re wrong but has anyone other than Wishon taken this strong position? Anyone followed on Wishon’s work on this issue?

[Red4282]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> >

> > > The 1/2" shorter set will reduce swing and ball speed. Created by box stores? I do not recall any box stores designing clubs.

> >

> > Huh? They are BOTH 1/2 shorter... so if strong lofted 8 equals weaker lofted 7, both would be same length and loft. There is no difference now other than the number. As for big box stores, w**hat i mean by that is naive consumer goes in to test clubs and launch monitor tells him hes hitting club A way farther than club b therefore it must be superior.**

> >

> >

>

> Who cares? Naive customer is probably buying Taylormade or Callaway anyways because that is what they see on TV. Naive customer is not doing a fitting.

>

> Jesus people, dynamic loft is a thing, look it up. You also act like it is impossible to bend something weak or ordering the correct clubs for that player is unheard of. If I have a 7i with 30* of static loft and then a 6i at 26* but struggle to hit something with less loft than that I probably have a 22-23* hybrid as my next club anyway. I've performed more fittings this week than most people go through in their entire lives, I know what I am talking about. You get on a launch monitor once and watch one Rick Shiels video and suddenly everyone is a tour van fitter. :#

 

What are you so angry at? You know what I said is true but i think someone like you may benefit from this crap cause you are a fitter selling clubs....? I know what dynamic loft is, and it has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about here. I dont give a crap what people want to hit.. you could stamp 93737 on the bottom for all i care...but like this new callaway epic set... most of these guys wont be hitting the 3,4,5. So he gets a 6- pw, has to pick up 2 hybrids, and then at least one more wedge and maybe 2! He now has doubled his amount spent. And thats IF (a big if) the fitter does the fitting honestly... because lets face it.. there are some that take advantage of the naive customer base. Id be a bad fitter because i would tell people to spend their money on lessons.

[LeoLeo99]

> @MtlJeff said:

> > @KMo23 said:

> > I’ve played 6 rounds of golf this year and haven’t once asked someone I was playing with what club they used or were going to use to hit the shot. I don’t think anyone’s asked me either.

> >

> > I’d love to play a set of these and beat the OP like a drum while yelling out what # club I just hit for each shot.

> >

> > Get a life people.

>

> I dont know that it's always about that for most people. I dont like when sets bunch irons at the bottom (21 degree 5 iron for example) and then have wider gaps in the scoring clubs. But that's how sets seem to be trending. Tighter bunches in clubs you hit less and with less accuracy anyway. I'm not sure the value in having 3 irons with lofts less than say 23 degrees. It's a waste of irons imo

 

You're correct. It's all about gapping.

[NRJyzr]

> @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > > > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > > > > @tobybear said:

> > > > > > > > If it wasn't for the lower lofts these would just go WAY too high. The speed off these faces and the spin created by the tech means that they need to do this to hit the proper launch windows - for the target player.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I’m amazed that as golf crazy posters here are that they can’t get this through their thick heads and stop whining about “jacked lofts.”

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Wise up, people and then shut up about this issue.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wrong.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I also think it's disrespectful to tell the OP to "shut up about this issue."

> > > > >

> > > > > Wrong?

> > > > >

> > > > > And if you read appropriately you’ll see I wasn’t telling the OP to shut up.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Yes, wrong.

> > > >

> > > > And you did indeed tell the OP to shut up.

> > >

> > > And how was I and the person I quoted wrong?

> > >

> > > As far as the shut up comment, I can’t help you read so you’re out of luck there.

> >

> > You and the person you quoted are wrong because the tech has been discussed and the marketing has been debunked. I too believed the whole story of "the lofts need to be stronger otherwise they would go too high with new tech etc etc" but Tom Wishon has pointed out that this simply isn't true. CG location has not moved which was the original claim (that the CG was now too low and lofts had to be strengthened to bring down flight) and there is no new tech that somehow creates insane amounts of spin difference. It is marketing, plain and simple. The target audience for these clubs are the now aging golf population that are slowing down and to a lesser extent the more ego driven players that simply want to think they are longer. Jacked lofts ARE a solution to a problem, but not the one they claim. They invented this idea of the launch problem and sold the public a solution that just so happens to conveniently increase distance. Misleading marketing is not exactly a shocking concept.

> >

> > As for the topic at hand, I really don't care about jacked lofts because they don't affect me. My set is built around the gapping of a 48* PW and a 21* 3-ironi and modern jacked up lofts don't change that. The people buying these sets are no "threat" to me either because I don't care how far they hit it because irons are a consistency game, not a distance one. Plus, there is only so far this can be pushed. You'll never have a 16* 5-iron because the average joe wouldn't be able to hit it and technology will never change that.

> >

> > There is one area that I have actually appreciated the change and that is in long irons as driving iron replacements. I have a Taylormade M2 Tour 3-iron that is 18.5*, so it is a 2-iron. I play it at 2-iron length and I like the smaller head, plus the few extra grams of headweight makes hitting my target swing weight easier.

>

> I’ve not seen anything that would definitively prove that lower CG doesn’t affect launch and spin. I’m not saying you’re wrong but has anyone other than Wishon taken this strong position? Anyone followed on Wishon’s work on this issue?

 

He's not saying a lower CG doesn't increase trajectory, he's saying the CGs have not been lowered or moved farther back, as has been claimed by marketing.

 

One only need look at the CG location information published by GolfWorks to see it.

[JeffreySpicoli]

> @NRJyzr said:

> > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > @Valtiel said:

> > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > > > @Im_A_Savage said:

> > > > > > > > @JeffreySpicoli said:

> > > > > > > > > @tobybear said:

> > > > > > > > > If it wasn't for the lower lofts these would just go WAY too high. The speed off these faces and the spin created by the tech means that they need to do this to hit the proper launch windows - for the target player.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I’m amazed that as golf crazy posters here are that they can’t get this through their thick heads and stop whining about “jacked lofts.”

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Wise up, people and then shut up about this issue.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Wrong.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I also think it's disrespectful to tell the OP to "shut up about this issue."

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Wrong?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > And if you read appropriately you’ll see I wasn’t telling the OP to shut up.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, wrong.

> > > > >

> > > > > And you did indeed tell the OP to shut up.

> > > >

> > > > And how was I and the person I quoted wrong?

> > > >

> > > > As far as the shut up comment, I can’t help you read so you’re out of luck there.

> > >

> > > You and the person you quoted are wrong because the tech has been discussed and the marketing has been debunked. I too believed the whole story of "the lofts need to be stronger otherwise they would go too high with new tech etc etc" but Tom Wishon has pointed out that this simply isn't true. CG location has not moved which was the original claim (that the CG was now too low and lofts had to be strengthened to bring down flight) and there is no new tech that somehow creates insane amounts of spin difference. It is marketing, plain and simple. The target audience for these clubs are the now aging golf population that are slowing down and to a lesser extent the more ego driven players that simply want to think they are longer. Jacked lofts ARE a solution to a problem, but not the one they claim. They invented this idea of the launch problem and sold the public a solution that just so happens to conveniently increase distance. Misleading marketing is not exactly a shocking concept.

> > >

> > > As for the topic at hand, I really don't care about jacked lofts because they don't affect me. My set is built around the gapping of a 48* PW and a 21* 3-ironi and modern jacked up lofts don't change that. The people buying these sets are no "threat" to me either because I don't care how far they hit it because irons are a consistency game, not a distance one. Plus, there is only so far this can be pushed. You'll never have a 16* 5-iron because the average joe wouldn't be able to hit it and technology will never change that.

> > >

> > > There is one area that I have actually appreciated the change and that is in long irons as driving iron replacements. I have a Taylormade M2 Tour 3-iron that is 18.5*, so it is a 2-iron. I play it at 2-iron length and I like the smaller head, plus the few extra grams of headweight makes hitting my target swing weight easier.

> >

> > I’ve not seen anything that would definitively prove that lower CG doesn’t affect launch and spin. I’m not saying you’re wrong but has anyone other than Wishon taken this strong position? Anyone followed on Wishon’s work on this issue?

>

> He's not saying a lower CG doesn't increase trajectory, he's saying the CGs have not been lowered or moved farther back, as has been claimed by marketing.

>

> One only need look at the CG location information published by GolfWorks to see it.

 

CGs haven’t been lowered? If so, this is a big story. Golfwrx should break this wide open.

[farmer]

> @dlygrisse said:

> > @cgasucks said:

> > Jacked lofts has been done for decades. My oldest set in my basement (1971 Wilson Staffs) has its PW factory set at 51 deg, which is a GW loft these days. My second oldest set is my 1988 845s which was originally touted as a GI set and its factory loft on its PW set at 48 deg, which was considered jacked up back in those days but considered very conservative nowadays found only in today's blades or players CB. 20 years from now, I wouldn't be surprised if I see a 40 deg PW as the norm with a 8 iron length.

>

> I used to have an old set of Spalding irons from the post WW2 era, the 9 iron was around 52*, I don't think they even made a "wedge" for the set. Just 1-9 iron.

 

A friend of mine has a 6 iron that belonged to his grandfather. Has the plastic coated shaft that's supposed to look like wood. I don't know when this was made, but the 6 iron is about the same length as a modern 8 iron and looks to be about the same loft.

[Brandons68]

Jacked lofts have always been a part of the club making game. Someone comes out with a "hotter" iron (actually just lofted) then every other competitor has to do the same or they wont keep up. Its really just who makes the moves first.

[phatchrisrules]

> @Red4282 said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > @Red4282 said:

> > >

> > > > The 1/2" shorter set will reduce swing and ball speed. Created by box stores? I do not recall any box stores designing clubs.

> > >

> > > Huh? They are BOTH 1/2 shorter... so if strong lofted 8 equals weaker lofted 7, both would be same length and loft. There is no difference now other than the number. As for big box stores, w**hat i mean by that is naive consumer goes in to test clubs and launch monitor tells him hes hitting club A way farther than club b therefore it must be superior.**

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Who cares? Naive customer is probably buying Taylormade or Callaway anyways because that is what they see on TV. Naive customer is not doing a fitting.

> >

> > Jesus people, dynamic loft is a thing, look it up. You also act like it is impossible to bend something weak or ordering the correct clubs for that player is unheard of. If I have a 7i with 30* of static loft and then a 6i at 26* but struggle to hit something with less loft than that I probably have a 22-23* hybrid as my next club anyway. I've performed more fittings this week than most people go through in their entire lives, I know what I am talking about. You get on a launch monitor once and watch one Rick Shiels video and suddenly everyone is a tour van fitter. :#

>

> What are you so angry at? You know what I said is true but i think someone like you may benefit from this crap cause you are a fitter selling clubs....? I know what dynamic loft is, and it has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about here. I dont give a crap what people want to hit.. you could stamp 93737 on the bottom for all i care...but like this new callaway epic set... most of these guys wont be hitting the 3,4,5. So he gets a 6- pw, has to pick up 2 hybrids, and then at least one more wedge and maybe 2! He now has doubled his amount spent. And thats IF (a big if) the fitter does the fitting honestly... because lets face it.. there are some that take advantage of the naive customer base. Id be a bad fitter because i would tell people to spend their money on lessons.

 

Dynamic loft has EVERYTHING to do with what we are talking about. If I use a 30* 6i and deliver it at 33* when PGA Tour average is around 23* then I am going to hit this powder puff, super spinny, weak shot. If I get something stronger lofted such as the Epic Forged, or even let's dial it back a bit, say the P790 at 26.5* and deliver 29.5* of delivered loft, or even 27.5* dynamic loft at impact I am getting into a much better position to get optimal flight numbers. Further, what a lot of you are not getting is ball speed promotes lift. So if I am hitting say 120mph ball speed with a 6i and then going to the EF and getting 126mph BS, guess which one is apexing higher and will have a steeper descent angle, despite the stronger lofts? Height and descent angle are significantly better at promoting stopping power than spin as spin is incredibly variable as it can depend on strike location, rough, moisture content on the golf ball, humidity, elevation of the landing zone, and so on.

 

So yes, I will hit it "further" with the stronger lofted iron however, it is because I am getting into a proper effectively hands-forward delivered loft scenario that is going to impersonate compression and hitting down on the iron, aka a properly swung shot. Yes, you can argue lessons are more effective, but for someone with a major swing flaw this isn't a 2 lesson and done fix. Engaging more core rotation, slowing down the arms to a very passive position, and angling the strike more downwards are sometimes multi-season rebuilds that take lots of dedication (and don't forget money!).

 

Let's now address the multiple hybrids at wedges adding cost to your build. Again, assume I am Joe Normal 20 handicap who delivers 33* of dynamic loft at impact with a 6i at 30* of loft. I walk in and say fit me for Epic Forged because I don't care what it costs me. We now deduce that likely since I am a 20 handicap, I have a loft cut off that I can hit effectively, and for most it is around 22/23*. So I get fit into 6-PW like you said as the 6i is 24*. I have a 3 wood and 5 wood I am happy with that slot into 14* and 18* already, that now makes sense that I get fit into a 21* hybrid of some sort, effectively the "5 iron" spot in my bag. I fail to see how that is two hybrids? Even if I did say I wanted a 4 hybrid instead of the fairway, we would get something in the 17-18* range and likely leave the 3 wood alone. Either way, I don't see how I am adding in two additional clubs creating some sort of crunch scenario with the lofts on the top end of my bag like your post suggests?

 

If we look at the bottom end of the bag, I have a 41* PW, so yes, I probably do want to add in that 46* "AW". From there I could easily get away with using a 51* and 57* wedge as my sand wedge and lob wedge. Remember, I am Joe Normal and don't really understand how to open up my club face for flop shots or shots out of the sand. I keep the face square and swing down my target line and hit and hope. So you know what, I loved the iron fitting and I'm using some old worn out CG-12s I never liked anyways so fit me for some wedges I say! I am feeling in a spending mood! So we get me a Glide 3.0 or CBX 50* that both have around 12* of bounce which is more than enough to use out of the sand (especially the CBX with the V-sole). Then I get a matching 56* wedge in perhaps a slightly different grind if I do feel adventurous enough to try some risky flopadop out of my ankle high rough my country club has for our C-flight Club-C. We bend these both 1* weak to match up better loft wise, and since I am more of a sweeper bending the loft doesn't influence bounce much since I never really make much contact with the ground anyways. This also introduces more bounce in those scenarios when I do make contact with the ground (flops and sands), which is also going to help me out in the long run.

 

There you go, a perfectly custom fit set of Callaway Epic Forged irons, without manipulating the lofts, without adding in 2 "extra" wedges or hybrids. I go out and shoot 85 with my friends and am over the moon because I beat Dr. Smith for the first time. To answer your first question, I am angry because there are far too many people in this thread that are posting laughably poor information and spreading this misinformation. Maybe I am drinking the "marketing kool-aid" but when you see it working day-in and day-out and getting ecstatic emails from your customers saying how they love their new clubs then I think I have a bit more clout to argue that they do work compared to someone who plays with someone who bought a set of M2s and can't hit a green when they hit maybe 2 greens before with a set of i3s. Especially when they are saying how much their handicaps are dropping thanks to the new clubs. But no, that's all marketing kool-aid.

[Red4282]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> > > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > > @Red4282 said:

> > > >

> > > > > The 1/2" shorter set will reduce swing and ball speed. Created by box stores? I do not recall any box stores designing clubs.

> > > >

> > > > Huh? They are BOTH 1/2 shorter... so if strong lofted 8 equals weaker lofted 7, both would be same length and loft. There is no difference now other than the number. As for big box stores, w**hat i mean by that is naive consumer goes in to test clubs and launch monitor tells him hes hitting club A way farther than club b therefore it must be superior.**

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Who cares? Naive customer is probably buying Taylormade or Callaway anyways because that is what they see on TV. Naive customer is not doing a fitting.

> > >

> > > Jesus people, dynamic loft is a thing, look it up. You also act like it is impossible to bend something weak or ordering the correct clubs for that player is unheard of. If I have a 7i with 30* of static loft and then a 6i at 26* but struggle to hit something with less loft than that I probably have a 22-23* hybrid as my next club anyway. I've performed more fittings this week than most people go through in their entire lives, I know what I am talking about. You get on a launch monitor once and watch one Rick Shiels video and suddenly everyone is a tour van fitter. :#

> >

> > What are you so angry at? You know what I said is true but i think someone like you may benefit from this crap cause you are a fitter selling clubs....? I know what dynamic loft is, and it has NOTHING to do with what we are talking about here. I dont give a crap what people want to hit.. you could stamp 93737 on the bottom for all i care...but like this new callaway epic set... most of these guys wont be hitting the 3,4,5. So he gets a 6- pw, has to pick up 2 hybrids, and then at least one more wedge and maybe 2! He now has doubled his amount spent. And thats IF (a big if) the fitter does the fitting honestly... because lets face it.. there are some that take advantage of the naive customer base. Id be a bad fitter because i would tell people to spend their money on lessons.

>

> Dynamic loft has EVERYTHING to do with what we are talking about. If I use a 30* 6i and deliver it at 33* when PGA Tour average is around 23* then I am going to hit this powder puff, super spinny, weak shot. If I get something stronger lofted such as the Epic Forged, or even let's dial it back a bit, say the P790 at 26.5* and deliver 29.5* of delivered loft, or even 27.5* dynamic loft at impact I am getting into a much better position to get optimal flight numbers. Further, what a lot of you are not getting is ball speed promotes lift. So if I am hitting say 120mph ball speed with a 6i and then going to the EF and getting 126mph BS, guess which one is apexing higher and will have a steeper descent angle, despite the stronger lofts? Height and descent angle are significantly better at promoting stopping power than spin as spin is incredibly variable as it can depend on strike location, rough, moisture content on the golf ball, humidity, elevation of the landing zone, and so on.

>

> So yes, I will hit it "further" with the stronger lofted iron however, it is because I am getting into a proper effectively hands-forward delivered loft scenario that is going to impersonate compression and hitting down on the iron, aka a properly swung shot. Yes, you can argue lessons are more effective, but for someone with a major swing flaw this isn't a 2 lesson and done fix. Engaging more core rotation, slowing down the arms to a very passive position, and angling the strike more downwards are sometimes multi-season rebuilds that take lots of dedication (and don't forget money!).

>

> Let's now address the multiple hybrids at wedges adding cost to your build. Again, assume I am Joe Normal 20 handicap who delivers 33* of dynamic loft at impact with a 6i at 30* of loft. I walk in and say fit me for Epic Forged because I don't care what it costs me. We now deduce that likely since I am a 20 handicap, I have a loft cut off that I can hit effectively, and for most it is around 22/23*. So I get fit into 6-PW like you said as the 6i is 24*. I have a 3 wood and 5 wood I am happy with that slot into 14* and 18* already, that now makes sense that I get fit into a 21* hybrid of some sort, effectively the "5 iron" spot in my bag. I fail to see how that is two hybrids? Even if I did say I wanted a 4 hybrid instead of the fairway, we would get something in the 17-18* range and likely leave the 3 wood alone. Either way, I don't see how I am adding in two additional clubs creating some sort of crunch scenario with the lofts on the top end of my bag like your post suggests?

>

> If we look at the bottom end of the bag, I have a 41* PW, so yes, I probably do want to add in that 46* "AW". From there I could easily get away with using a 51* and 57* wedge as my sand wedge and lob wedge. Remember, I am Joe Normal and don't really understand how to open up my club face for flop shots or shots out of the sand. I keep the face square and swing down my target line and hit and hope. So you know what, I loved the iron fitting and I'm using some old worn out CG-12s I never liked anyways so fit me for some wedges I say! I am feeling in a spending mood! So we get me a Glide 3.0 or CBX 50* that both have around 12* of bounce which is more than enough to use out of the sand (especially the CBX with the V-sole). Then I get a matching 56* wedge in perhaps a slightly different grind if I do feel adventurous enough to try some risky flopadop out of my ankle high rough my country club has for our C-flight Club-C. We bend these both 1* weak to match up better loft wise, and since I am more of a sweeper bending the loft doesn't influence bounce much since I never really make much contact with the ground anyways. This also introduces more bounce in those scenarios when I do make contact with the ground (flops and sands), which is also going to help me out in the long run.

>

> There you go, a perfectly custom fit set of Callaway Epic Forged irons, without manipulating the lofts, without adding in 2 "extra" wedges or hybrids. I go out and shoot 85 with my friends and am over the moon because I beat Dr. Smith for the first time. To answer your first question, I am angry because there are far too many people in this thread that are posting laughably poor information and spreading this misinformation. Maybe I am drinking the "marketing kool-aid" but when you see it working day-in and day-out and getting ecstatic emails from your customers saying how they love their new clubs then I think I have a bit more clout to argue that they do work compared to someone who plays with someone who bought a set of M2s and can't hit a green when they hit maybe 2 greens before with a set of i3s. Especially when they are saying how much their handicaps are dropping thanks to the new clubs. But no, that's all marketing kool-aid.

 

Lol this is the most laughable thing I've read in a while, and frankly i cannot believe you are a fitter...

Your first paragraph is using two 6 irons with different lofts. Do the same example with an older set with a 5 iron at the same loft and length. If you flip the club and add loft at impact, nothing changes... except the number on the bottom and your naive perception your magically hitting it further.

 

You say this person with a major swing flaw like flipping wouldnt be able to change in a lesson two. Perhaps. But 2 lessons is what maybe 200? These irons are what 1200? Lol thats 10 more lessons the dude could get. If anything your doing a disservice to this player, selling him snake oil. I know even if you told them hey 10 lessons would do you better there would still be guys that buy the clubs because its “funner” to buy new clubs and who wants to work at getting better.

 

[phatchrisrules]

> @Red4282 said:

>

> Lol this is the most laughable thing I've read in a while, and frankly i cannot believe you are a fitter...

> Your first paragraph is using two 6 irons with different lofts. Do the same example with an older set with a 5 iron at the same loft and length. If you flip the club and add loft at impact, nothing changes... except the number on the bottom and your naive perception your magically hitting it further.

>

> You say this person with a major swing flaw like flipping wouldnt be able to change in a lesson two. Perhaps. But 2 lessons is what maybe 200? These irons are what 1200? Lol thats 10 more lessons the dude could get. If anything your doing a disservice to this player, selling him snake oil. I know even if you told them hey 10 lessons would do you better there would still be guys that buy the clubs because its “funner” to buy new clubs and who wants to work at getting better.

>

 

Have fun, man. Think what you want to think but you're dead wrong and just can't admit it so you are resorting to personal attacks. I do just fine as well and can send you the emails of over 200 happy clients from the 2018-2019 season if you want. When I showed you that you can gap the set properly as you said was impossible you ignored that as well.

 

If I fit strictly off a static length of a 6i at 37.5" (which I do, and so does Club Champion, TXG, Cool Clubs, Hot Stix, and True Spec...aka all the well known and half-way respected fitters) then if I have a 30* 6i vs. a 24* 6i exactly what I am talking about changes, the dynamic loft at impact. Now, let's use your example of a 4i from 1999 such as the Cobra Gravity Backs, Mizuno MP-14, Titleist DCI 981, and Ping i3, all of which are 38.25" long, which gives you a proper dynamic loft but now you are introducing roughly 0.75" in extra length in the player's hands which is not a great thing unless they are super tall. If you cut it to match then you are significantly reducing swingweight and also stiffening the shaft a bit, things you don't necessarily want to do.

 

I think you also need to address your lesson idea. A 6 pack of lessons is close to $500 CAD from PGA Superstore. What I outlined, unless you are teaching a super star student (engaging hip and core rotation, passive hands, and influencing a more downward AoA) is usually not a 6-lesson experience. As I said, it can sometimes be a season-long overhaul (or more...I know some people that are on about year 3 of this) at probably 2x a month which is $2400 CAD, the exact same price as the irons. GolfTec lessons cost even more, so do reputable teaching pros (probably closer to $200 per lesson CAD).

 

Again, think what you want to think and call me a snake oil salesman all you want but I don't see many people here helping much either suggesting literally the hardest clubs in the world to hit for beginners all because *gasp* it has a 6i that sits at 27* or less. Holy cow the entire golf industry is going to come crumbling down because Joe Normal hits an iron that isn't traditional lofts and now gained a club in a miseleading way!!!!!! Play what works for you and don't worry about other people. If someone has the money for the clubs and adds 3-4* of dynamic loft at impact and this club fits them well and helps them lower their scores, who cares? The golf ball doesn't care what is hitting it, and if the numbers are optimal then they are optimal. BTW, these specs have been used in Japan for a super long time and nobody over there is crying about it. I am done posting in this thread as I have said all I need to say, it is up to you all to now choose to understand it or not.

[CROUSE99]

I think I am going to go the other way and start whining about sets that have weak lofts :D

[Red4282]

> @Red4282 said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > @Red4282 said:

> > > > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > > > @Red4282 said:

> > > > >

> > > > > > The 1/2" shorter set will reduce swing and ball speed. Created by box stores? I do not recall any box stores designing clubs.

> > > > >

> > > > > Huh? They are BOTH 1/2 shorter... so if strong lofted 8 equals weaker lofted 7, both would be same length and loft. There is no difference now other than the number. As for big box stores, w**hat i mean by that is naive consumer goes in to test clubs and launch monitor tells him hes hitting club A way farther than club b therefore it must be superior.**

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Who cares? Naive customer is probably buying Taylormade or Callaway anyways because that is what they see on TV. Naive customer is not doing a fitting.

> > > >

> > > > Jesus people, dynamic loft is a thing, look it up. You also act like it is impossible to bend something weak or ordering the correct clubs for that player is unheard of. If I have a 7i with 30* of static loft and then a 6i at 26* but struggle to hit something with less

 

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> >

> > Lol this is the most laughable thing I've read in a while, and frankly i cannot believe you are a fitter...

> > Your first paragraph is using two 6 irons with different lofts. Do the same example with an older set with a 5 iron at the same loft and length. If you flip the club and add loft at impact, nothing changes... except the number on the bottom and your naive perception your magically hitting it further.

> >

> > You say this person with a major swing flaw like flipping wouldnt be able to change in a lesson two. Perhaps. But 2 lessons is what maybe 200? These irons are what 1200? Lol thats 10 more lessons the dude could get. If anything your doing a disservice to this player, selling him snake oil. I know even if you told them hey 10 lessons would do you better there would still be guys that buy the clubs because its “funner” to buy new clubs and who wants to work at getting better.

> >

>

> Have fun, man. Think what you want to think but you're dead wrong and just can't admit it so you are resorting to personal attacks. I do just fine as well and can send you the emails of over 200 happy clients from the 2018-2019 season if you want. When I showed you that you can gap the set properly as you said was impossible you ignored that as well.

>

> If I fit strictly off a static length of a 6i at 37.5" (which I do, and so does Club Champion, TXG, Cool Clubs, Hot Stix, and True Spec...aka all the well known and half-way respected fitters) then if I have a 30* 6i vs. a 24* 6i exactly what I am talking about changes, the dynamic loft at impact. Now, let's use your example of a 4i from 1999 such as the Cobra Gravity Backs, Mizuno MP-14, Titleist DCI 981, and Ping i3, all of which are 38.25" long, which gives you a proper dynamic loft but now you are introducing roughly 0.75" in extra length in the player's hands which is not a great thing unless they are super tall. If you cut it to match then you are significantly reducing swingweight and also stiffening the shaft a bit, things you don't necessarily want to do.

>

> I think you also need to address your lesson idea. A 6 pack of lessons is close to $500 CAD from PGA Superstore. What I outlined, unless you are teaching a super star student (engaging hip and core rotation, passive hands, and influencing a more downward AoA) is usually not a 6-lesson experience. As I said, it can sometimes be a season-long overhaul (or more...I know some people that are on about year 3 of this) at probably 2x a month which is $2400 CAD, the exact same price as the irons. GolfTec lessons cost even more, so do reputable teaching pros (probably closer to $200 per lesson CAD).

>

> Again, think what you want to think and call me a snake oil salesman all you want but I don't see many people here helping much either suggesting literally the hardest clubs in the world to hit for beginners all because *gasp* it has a 6i that sits at 27* or less. Holy cow the entire golf industry is going to come crumbling down because Joe Normal hits an iron that isn't traditional lofts and now gained a club in a miseleading way!!!!!! Play what works for you and don't worry about other people. If someone has the money for the clubs and adds 3-4* of dynamic loft at impact and this club fits them well and helps them lower their scores, who cares? The golf ball doesn't care what is hitting it, and if the numbers are optimal then they are optimal. BTW, these specs have been used in Japan for a super long time and nobody over there is crying about it. I am done posting in this thread as I have said all I need to say, it is up to you all to now choose to understand it or not.

 

There is nothing special about these clubs that cant be done with weaker lofts. Take my srixon 765. 9 iron is 41 degrees, same as the club in question-callway pw. Cut the shaft 1/2 shorter and add a tip weight. Scratch out the “9” and etch “pw” boom, im a genious that will be 1200 dollars. Its clear your just arguing for sake of arguing. Ill move on now, but dont take this as a personal attack cause its not- there are good and bad in every profession. There are bad doctors so there are certainly bad fitters. I could care less what any golfer wants to play- like i said, i just have a problem with the industry misleading and profiting off people who may not know any better. Ultimately its on the people to educate themselves buts its not exactly morally sound to play off that.

[drbonesvt]

Oh the humanity

 

Does do most golfers a dis service , unknowingly large gap between pw and wedge ##

 

Positive jacked up lofts, bending weak loosing offset

[North Butte]

It's like a version of that thing about, "Somewhere out there, there's a guy on the Internet and he is TOTALLY WRONG ABOUT SOMETHING!!!".

 

Except this one is, "Somewhere out there, there are people playing jacked loft irons and thinking they hit the ball WAY FARTHER THAN THEY REALLY DO!!!".

 

People sure do get worked up about how other people just aren't doing right.

[magnus7319]

If this is on the list of things that bother you - you may want to read the news more often. You are more informed than many of the other people who play golf, don't worry so much about it.

[timbo08]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @Red4282 said:

> >

> > Lol this is the most laughable thing I've read in a while, and frankly i cannot believe you are a fitter...

> > Your first paragraph is using two 6 irons with different lofts. Do the same example with an older set with a 5 iron at the same loft and length. If you flip the club and add loft at impact, nothing changes... except the number on the bottom and your naive perception your magically hitting it further.

> >

> > You say this person with a major swing flaw like flipping wouldnt be able to change in a lesson two. Perhaps. But 2 lessons is what maybe 200? These irons are what 1200? Lol thats 10 more lessons the dude could get. If anything your doing a disservice to this player, selling him snake oil. I know even if you told them hey 10 lessons would do you better there would still be guys that buy the clubs because its “funner” to buy new clubs and who wants to work at getting better.

> >

>

> Have fun, man. Think what you want to think but you're dead wrong and just can't admit it so you are resorting to personal attacks. I do just fine as well and can send you the emails of over 200 happy clients from the 2018-2019 season if you want. When I showed you that you can gap the set properly as you said was impossible you ignored that as well.

>

> If I fit strictly off a static length of a 6i at 37.5" (which I do, and so does Club Champion, TXG, Cool Clubs, Hot Stix, and True Spec...aka all the well known and half-way respected fitters) then if I have a 30* 6i vs. a 24* 6i exactly what I am talking about changes, the dynamic loft at impact. Now, let's use your example of a 4i from 1999 such as the Cobra Gravity Backs, Mizuno MP-14, Titleist DCI 981, and Ping i3, all of which are 38.25" long, which gives you a proper dynamic loft but now you are introducing roughly 0.75" in extra length in the player's hands which is not a great thing unless they are super tall. If you cut it to match then you are significantly reducing swingweight and also stiffening the shaft a bit, things you don't necessarily want to do.

>

> I think you also need to address your lesson idea. A 6 pack of lessons is close to $500 CAD from PGA Superstore. What I outlined, unless you are teaching a super star student (engaging hip and core rotation, passive hands, and influencing a more downward AoA) is usually not a 6-lesson experience. As I said, it can sometimes be a season-long overhaul (or more...I know some people that are on about year 3 of this) at probably 2x a month which is $2400 CAD, the exact same price as the irons. GolfTec lessons cost even more, so do reputable teaching pros (probably closer to $200 per lesson CAD).

>

> Again, think what you want to think and call me a snake oil salesman all you want but I don't see many people here helping much either suggesting literally the hardest clubs in the world to hit for beginners all because *gasp* it has a 6i that sits at 27* or less. Holy cow the entire golf industry is going to come crumbling down because Joe Normal hits an iron that isn't traditional lofts and now gained a club in a miseleading way!!!!!! Play what works for you and don't worry about other people. If someone has the money for the clubs and adds 3-4* of dynamic loft at impact and this club fits them well and helps them lower their scores, who cares? The golf ball doesn't care what is hitting it, and if the numbers are optimal then they are optimal. BTW, these specs have been used in Japan for a super long time and nobody over there is crying about it. I am done posting in this thread as I have said all I need to say, it is up to you all to now choose to understand it or not.

 

I am not trying to add fuel to the fire as I am generally curious on this topic. I found myself in the jacked lofts are a joke campaign for a while, but at the same time I am a sucker for a good story and like buying new gear so I don't complete dismiss the high launch argument. So here's the deal I have a set of 2009 X-Forged that I love, and have played on and off since I got them in 2010.

 

The 5 iron on the 2009 X Forged is 27 degrees of loft, 61 degree lie angle and 38 inches long. If I wanted to get into the 2019 Callaway Epic Forged as an upgrade, what difference would I see between the 7 iron in the Epic Forged Set which is 27 degrees of loft, 37.625 inches (so 3/8ths of an inch shorter) and 61 degree lie angle.

 

In theory, assuming I can properly hit a 27 degree club, the 5 iron should go further correct since it is longer and I can handle it? Or does the 7 iron go further because it launches higher with the appropriate amount of spin? This is assuming I deliver the club with the proper amount of dynamic loft at impact of course in both cases, what difference would I see with the same PX 6.0 shaft in both?

 

If there is a difference, what part of that difference is attributed to new technology and not just stamping a 7 on a 5 iron?

[BIG STU]

> @"North Butte" said:

> > @mahonie said:

> > ...a jacked lofted 7-iron that plays as long as a standard 5-iron...

>

> There is no such thing as a "standard 5-iron".

>

 

I know you have been around long enough to know this. Remember when the standard demo club was a 5 iron? Now it is a 6 iron. You know just saying

[North Butte]

> @"BIG STU" said:

> > @"North Butte" said:

> > > @mahonie said:

> > > ...a jacked lofted 7-iron that plays as long as a standard 5-iron...

> >

> > There is no such thing as a "standard 5-iron".

> >

>

> I know you have been around long enough to know this. Remember when the standard demo club was a 5 iron? Now it is a 6 iron. You know just saying

 

Yep, my first fitting (done by my teaching pro in around 1995 or 96) was with a Wilson Staff 5-iron with Dynamic Gold R300 shaft. Perfectly croumulent club although heavy and not particularly forgiving by today's standards. I could poke it out there 150 when I caught it flush. One degree flat and 1/4" short IIRC but he said "standard lie and length will be good enough if you don't want to special order".

 

It's funny. That 5-iron had 29 degrees of loft I believe. My current 7-iron has 30 degrees of loft and a much lighter shaft, very forgiving. I can just about get it out there 150 if I catch one really solid.