Change from forged/blade to big game improvers ... Did it improve your handicap?

[Tree Levino]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> I feel like I can answer this question accurately as I have a friend that lent me his set of New Level 623 blades with Modus 105 shafts. I play the New Level 1031 (the GI version of their lineup before the 1126 came along) with Dynamic Gold 105s. The lofts are the same, the shafts are virtually the same. I hit them on the range for a couple of sessions side by side and came to the following conclusion as a person who typically shoots 80-84 during a round.

>

> 1) There was no difference in the Pitching wedge. Both flew the same trajectory, had roughly the same apex, travelled the same distance, and had the same overall fade. Mishits fell about 5 yards short on the blades vs. the CB, flew lower, and had more pronounced tails compared to the GI irons.

>

> 2) The 8i I found flew about 4-6 yards longer on the GI club vs. the blade. The accuracy was roughly similar but there was a noticeable improvement in the dispersion of the GI vs. the blade when a mishit was introduced, both side to side and in carry distance.

>

> 3) At the 6i was where things really started to show. My own 6i was consistently carrying around the 165 mark while the blade had to be absolutely flushed to get the same out of it. The dispersion was significantly better on mishits on the 6i of the GI vs. blade to the point where maybe only 3-4/10 were struck well with the blade/landed where I had intended even on what felt like good swings vs. 6-7 with the GI iron. I stopped the test after this as I knew there was going to be little point in even pulling the 4i of the blade out of the blade.

>

> 4) Just for fun I also took out an old range club I have, an Epon AF303 with an s300 in it. Those in the know would likely agree with me that this is a pretty small iron overall akin to the 919 Tour/MP-18 SC, 718 CB, or P750, so definitely not a true blade but for sure small enough to past the player's CB poser test on here (thin top line, little offset, great feel, compact shape with nice blade length). The first two were flushed and landed almost on top of one another, the 3rd, 4th, 5th I should have just put the club away. Left-right-left-low, and it continued. I think the slightly weaker loft of this club helped at the onset but after that it's true nature stuck out, this is a ball striker's club and I am certainly not one.

>

> Overall, I think you should play what you think is going to help you play your best. However, the club snobbery that is rampant on here and other similar sites needs to stop as well. There are plenty of good examples of really darn good players using clubs on either spectrum. Brooks and Xander going the CB route while Thomas and McIlroy going the blade route. There are arguments on either side for sure. However, a lot of us should probably look at the LPGA or Champions Tour for our club advice due to similar swing speeds as the guys on the PGA Tour are just getting to almost immortal ball striking status of late. On the LPGA and Champions Tour it is not unheard of to play hybrids down to a 5 or even 6 iron and to play some irons with a little more help. I don't care how long you are, you can't say at a 3 handicap or worse that you are a better ball striker than even a sort-of mid tier LPGA pro. Look at this video from TXG fitting Na Yeon Choi who plays Apex Pros (snubbed by many here because of the thicker top line and offset) who also plays a 5 hybrid. If her dispersion was more than about 4 feet per iron I would be surprised.

>

>

 

Yes and her smash factor is absolutely silly. She's puring basically every shot. The mid-handicapper thread is literally giving me an eternal migraine. I'm fine with people wanting to play blades - it's a d*mn hobby after all. But refuting the forgiveness benefits of perimeter weighting is just ridiculous.

[jschwartz12181]

Game improvement clubs help

[Ivyguy]

Do you know I solve this whole line of thinking?

 

Hit it on the hosel.

 

All irons play the same on the hosel... very consistent.

[phatchrisrules]

> @balls_deep said:

> > @phatchrisrules said:

> > I feel like I can answer this question accurately as I have a friend that lent me his set of New Level 623 blades with Modus 105 shafts. I play the New Level 1031 (the GI version of their lineup before the 1126 came along) with Dynamic Gold 105s. The lofts are the same, the shafts are virtually the same. I hit them on the range for a couple of sessions side by side and came to the following conclusion as a person who typically shoots 80-84 during a round.

> >

> > 1) There was no difference in the Pitching wedge. Both flew the same trajectory, had roughly the same apex, travelled the same distance, and had the same overall fade. Mishits fell about 5 yards short on the blades vs. the CB, flew lower, and had more pronounced tails compared to the GI irons.

> >

> > 2) The 8i I found flew about 4-6 yards longer on the GI club vs. the blade. The accuracy was roughly similar but there was a noticeable improvement in the dispersion of the GI vs. the blade when a mishit was introduced, both side to side and in carry distance.

> >

> > 3) At the 6i was where things really started to show. My own 6i was consistently carrying around the 165 mark while the blade had to be absolutely flushed to get the same out of it. The dispersion was significantly better on mishits on the 6i of the GI vs. blade to the point where maybe only 3-4/10 were struck well with the blade/landed where I had intended even on what felt like good swings vs. 6-7 with the GI iron. I stopped the test after this as I knew there was going to be little point in even pulling the 4i of the blade out of the blade.

> >

> > 4) Just for fun I also took out an old range club I have, an Epon AF303 with an s300 in it. Those in the know would likely agree with me that this is a pretty small iron overall akin to the 919 Tour/MP-18 SC, 718 CB, or P750, so definitely not a true blade but for sure small enough to past the player's CB poser test on here (thin top line, little offset, great feel, compact shape with nice blade length). The first two were flushed and landed almost on top of one another, the 3rd, 4th, 5th I should have just put the club away. Left-right-left-low, and it continued. I think the slightly weaker loft of this club helped at the onset but after that it's true nature stuck out, this is a ball striker's club and I am certainly not one.

> >

> > Overall, I think you should play what you think is going to help you play your best. However, the club snobbery that is rampant on here and other similar sites needs to stop as well. There are plenty of good examples of really darn good players using clubs on either spectrum. Brooks and Xander going the CB route while Thomas and McIlroy going the blade route. There are arguments on either side for sure. However, a lot of us should probably look at the LPGA or Champions Tour for our club advice due to similar swing speeds as the guys on the PGA Tour are just getting to almost immortal ball striking status of late. On the LPGA and Champions Tour it is not unheard of to play hybrids down to a 5 or even 6 iron and to play some irons with a little more help. I don't care how long you are, you can't say at a 3 handicap or worse that you are a better ball striker than even a sort-of mid tier LPGA pro. Look at this video from TXG fitting Na Yeon Choi who plays Apex Pros (snubbed by many here because of the thicker top line and offset) who also plays a 5 hybrid. If her dispersion was more than about 4 feet per iron I would be surprised.

> >

> >

>

> Yes and her smash factor is absolutely silly. She's puring basically every shot. The mid-handicapper thread is literally giving me an eternal migraine. I'm fine with people wanting to play blades - it's a d*mn hobby after all. But refuting the forgiveness benefits of perimeter weighting is just ridiculous.

 

Couldn't agree more. The argument of "when they are both struck well they fly the same, so there's no difference" is silly to me as well. No-one cares about a flushed shot. If you flush it of course they are going to fly the same, the mishits are what matters! Then the argument becomes "well I hit them straighter but they just fall short of target rather going left or right". I don't know about most of the people on here but there are a lot of courses around me where short is dead meat with either a steep slope up the green, water, or a naturalized area where at least green side might be a bunker or some rough. I can deal with a bunker or rough, I can't deal with a 1-stroke penalty or trying to hit a risky flop up the hill.

 

Again, to each their own as there are players who would benefit from a slightly smaller sole (i.e. sweepers of the ball) but it just doesn't make sense for anyone over about a 8 handicap to play something that doesn't have some sort of face tech. Even if you have to play an i500 or P790 or Cobra Forged Tech and bend them weak, go for it. I can almost guarantee scores would drop.

[DixieD]

> @Troutfly said:

> For the love of.....

 

Blades?

[NRJyzr]

> @phatchrisrules said:

> > @balls_deep said:

> > > @phatchrisrules said:

> > > I feel like I can answer this question accurately as I have a friend that lent me his set of New Level 623 blades with Modus 105 shafts. I play the New Level 1031 (the GI version of their lineup before the 1126 came along) with Dynamic Gold 105s. The lofts are the same, the shafts are virtually the same. I hit them on the range for a couple of sessions side by side and came to the following conclusion as a person who typically shoots 80-84 during a round.

> > >

> > > 1) There was no difference in the Pitching wedge. Both flew the same trajectory, had roughly the same apex, travelled the same distance, and had the same overall fade. Mishits fell about 5 yards short on the blades vs. the CB, flew lower, and had more pronounced tails compared to the GI irons.

> > >

> > > 2) The 8i I found flew about 4-6 yards longer on the GI club vs. the blade. The accuracy was roughly similar but there was a noticeable improvement in the dispersion of the GI vs. the blade when a mishit was introduced, both side to side and in carry distance.

> > >

> > > 3) At the 6i was where things really started to show. My own 6i was consistently carrying around the 165 mark while the blade had to be absolutely flushed to get the same out of it. The dispersion was significantly better on mishits on the 6i of the GI vs. blade to the point where maybe only 3-4/10 were struck well with the blade/landed where I had intended even on what felt like good swings vs. 6-7 with the GI iron. I stopped the test after this as I knew there was going to be little point in even pulling the 4i of the blade out of the blade.

> > >

> > > 4) Just for fun I also took out an old range club I have, an Epon AF303 with an s300 in it. Those in the know would likely agree with me that this is a pretty small iron overall akin to the 919 Tour/MP-18 SC, 718 CB, or P750, so definitely not a true blade but for sure small enough to past the player's CB poser test on here (thin top line, little offset, great feel, compact shape with nice blade length). The first two were flushed and landed almost on top of one another, the 3rd, 4th, 5th I should have just put the club away. Left-right-left-low, and it continued. I think the slightly weaker loft of this club helped at the onset but after that it's true nature stuck out, this is a ball striker's club and I am certainly not one.

> > >

> > > Overall, I think you should play what you think is going to help you play your best. However, the club snobbery that is rampant on here and other similar sites needs to stop as well. There are plenty of good examples of really darn good players using clubs on either spectrum. Brooks and Xander going the CB route while Thomas and McIlroy going the blade route. There are arguments on either side for sure. However, a lot of us should probably look at the LPGA or Champions Tour for our club advice due to similar swing speeds as the guys on the PGA Tour are just getting to almost immortal ball striking status of late. On the LPGA and Champions Tour it is not unheard of to play hybrids down to a 5 or even 6 iron and to play some irons with a little more help. I don't care how long you are, you can't say at a 3 handicap or worse that you are a better ball striker than even a sort-of mid tier LPGA pro. Look at this video from TXG fitting Na Yeon Choi who plays Apex Pros (snubbed by many here because of the thicker top line and offset) who also plays a 5 hybrid. If her dispersion was more than about 4 feet per iron I would be surprised.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yes and her smash factor is absolutely silly. She's puring basically every shot. The mid-handicapper thread is literally giving me an eternal migraine. I'm fine with people wanting to play blades - it's a d*mn hobby after all. But refuting the forgiveness benefits of perimeter weighting is just ridiculous.

>

> Couldn't agree more. The argument of "when they are both struck well they fly the same, so there's no difference" is silly to me as well. No-one cares about a flushed shot. If you flush it of course they are going to fly the same, the mishits are what matters! Then the argument becomes "well I hit them straighter but they just fall short of target rather going left or right". I don't know about most of the people on here but there are a lot of courses around me where short is dead meat with either a steep slope up the green, water, or a naturalized area where at least green side might be a bunker or some rough. I can deal with a bunker or rough, I can't deal with a 1-stroke penalty or trying to hit a risky flop up the hill.

>

> Again, to each their own as there are players who would benefit from a slightly smaller sole (i.e. sweepers of the ball) but it just doesn't make sense for anyone over about a 8 handicap to play something that doesn't have some sort of face tech. Even if you have to play an i500 or P790 or Cobra Forged Tech and bend them weak, go for it. **I can almost guarantee scores would drop.**

 

 

Yeah, that's what I was told. Didn't happen.

 

It **did** happen with Golden Rams, though.

[Golfjack]

> @Ivyguy said:

> Do you know I solve this whole line of thinking?

>

> Hit it on the hosel.

>

> All irons play the same on the hosel... very consistent.

 

Yes but the randomness of the hosel shot itself presents infinite possibilities which is the true mystery of golf. I'd say it's easier to hit the hosel if it's an offset club since the hosel is even more prominent.

[Ivyguy]

> @Golfjack said:

> > @Ivyguy said:

> > Do you know I solve this whole line of thinking?

> >

> > Hit it on the hosel.

> >

> > All irons play the same on the hosel... very consistent.

>

> Yes but the randomness of the hosel shot itself presents infinite possibilities which is the true mystery of golf. I'd say it's easier to hit the hosel if it's an offset club since the hosel is even more prominent.

 

Unfortunately I find the hosel enough that I need an OEM to throw some grooves on there lol

[driveandputtmachine]

My handicap remained the close. In the short term it went down over the course of a few weeks to a couple of months. As I played and practiced less and less it went up. When I was playing and hitting balls all of the time my swing was more consistent and didn't have a ton of miss hits. When I had kids and a job that required more time I didn't play or practice as much and switched to cavities to help with the miss hits. At first my handicap stayed the same because I only switched when my grooved swing became less grooved. It only went up because my swing was even less grooved.

 

I got my handicap close (within 3/4 of a shot) to what it was in college one summer when I was able to practice and play a good amount. That was three years ago, and it was with cavity backs, had I been able to practice and play even more I could have gotten it about the same.

[IHFN]

I've gone back and forth over the years and here's what I've found...

 

Yes game improvement irons make make your misses a little bit better, but if you hit the ball way off on the toe, it doesn't matter what club it is, you are going to miss the green. Blades like cobra's have gotten a little bit more forgiving where you can just miss the sweet spot and still be fine. The biggest difference to me is that when I hit a blade with a good swing, it does exactly what I want flight wise and my distance control is excellent. When I hit game improvement irons with a good swing, the distance is questionable as well as the flight.

 

So my good shots aren't as good with game improvements, but my bad shots may not be as bad.

 

That means when I'm on with GI irons, my play isn't going to be as good and I'm not going to be close to the hole. When I'm bad with GI, it may be a little bit better, but I have enough confidence in my short game that I don't care if I'm 5 yards off the green or 10 or 15.

 

Therefore, I'll continue to use blades.

[orangeology]

sorry folks, it has never been the clubs.

[MTgolf]

When I graduated college and stopped practicing on a daily basis, my ball striking suffered. I switched from blades to a taylormade rocketbladez. While the extra distance was nice and the forgiveness was great, the distance gaps between clubs was far too large and the inability to get the thick sole through the rough, especially with short irons was a no go. While my handicap didn't go down in making this change, I feel like it stabilized it as the extra forgiveness allowed for maybe 1-2 extra GIR a round. Ultimately, I have settled back on a mixed bag, blades through the 7 iron and forgiveness with 6 on down. The switch could work for you and help to lower the handicap, and it also could not. But that extra distance is sure nice. :)

[wakit300]

Wow, only two people actually answered the question. Gotta love it

[kvgkvg]

I'll bite. I hover between a +1 and a 1. My gamers are MP-18 MBs...while traveling, I'll sometimes rent clubs. They're nearly always SGI or GI clubs. I typically hit more or less the same shots I do with my MBs.

 

The difference I find is, at the top of the bag...I just can't miss with the SGIs. At the bottom of the bag I have much much much less touch.

 

If I played courses with of long irons into greens or flat greens that didn't penalize hitting centers all day, I'd probably game SGIs or GIs. I carry the MBs because I play pretty varied set of courses with lots of wind and tiered greens. I need to be able to hit it a low saucy "147" not 150-ish towering shot.

 

Last, if I was playing less frequently I could probably hold my scores down longer with the GIs vs the MBs. It's all wedges and putting anyway.

[jwhite37]

game improvement clubs don't work in my opinion. I just tend to hit offline shots further and cause more problems. blades or players cavities just make golf more enjoyable. My buddy plays SGIs and hits fairways and greens all day with a single stock shot. Its painful to watch, so boring. I flight it low and high, cuts, draws and mishits on my way to a 10 hcp. Thats what its all about.

[JDCON]

Next year, I'll buy a new set of blades for science. I'll let you know what happens.

[cfg]

A few years ago, I went from Mizuno MP-57 irons to Taylormade Speedblade irons. Not exactly big game improvement, but a big difference anyway. I've always preferred lighter shafts and the Speedblade had a stock 85 gram steel shaft. Lightweight and more consistent than graphite. I'm just as straight as I ever was with the MP-57's, and about a club longer because of the stronger lofts. Plus, they are absolutely more forgiving on mis-hits. Yes, the MP-57's are softer at impact, but I'm not too proud to accept a toe hit that lands on the front of the green versus a toe hit that winds up in the bunker. Also, the Speedblades have lasted longer than forged irons would have.

[GolfChannel]

Since I haven’t contributed in the other 2,000 versions of this post, what prevents me from even trying anything game improvement is the offset. I don’t want to see it, any of it, at all. If there was a game improvement set that had no offset I would be willing to give them a go.

 

My handicap has gone down with the change in my ability not due to the irons in my bag. The most important club in determining that handicap is driver not irons.

[Booker]

I played a forged blade, mp33, 68s and my 680mbs for the past 11 seasons. Switched to ping eye 2plus with 130 ctapers and my irons game improved a lot this year. Easily to elevate, slight misses stay online way better. Only difference was I had to go up an iron distance wise.

[NDGolfer13]

I seem (very non scientific) to play better with thinner soles. Now another issue that I struggle with is not keeping clubs for any real length of time. I enjoy trying new things and tinkering with my equipment. I’m sure if I devoted some real time to one set up it may improve my hcp. But I wouldn’t have the enjoyment of all of the tinkering that I get to do.

[ibradley]

I switched from PXG 0311Ts (Gen 1) to PXG 0311Ps (Gen 2). I have found my iron play has improved. I am hitting more greens and fewer big misses. My handicap has gone down a couple of shots.

[braincramp52]

Been a few years since I've played blades seriously. Played Ping S56's last year. Went to the Ping G410's this year. Started the year at a 8 and I've been at a 6 the last month or so. So yes, it did help me.

[rxk9fan]

I tried the 919 Hot Metal Pro earlier this year to answer this question for myself. IMO, the 919 HMP is a nice looking club, not huge, not a ton of offset, all in all looked pretty playable from address. I think the problem was on the underside, the sole width. The turf interaction was SO different that I felt like it was bouncing off of instead of cutting through the turf after contact with the ball. My scores jumped up, and my enjoyment on the course/range jumped down. It became obvious to me that we have different types of heads because we have different types of swings. It is our job to find what works best for us...what we enjoy playing the game with.

To answer the OP's question, I tried it and my scores went up.

[bodhi555]

Many many moons ago when I was playing at University, I changed from a set of King Cobra Tour irons to a set of the Original Callaway Big Bertha Irons, and my handicap went up 0.5 before I decided to abandon the experiment and go back to the Cobras. I was hitting the Callaways a club further, but they were playing havoc from the bare lies I frequently encountered around St Andrews Links, and I really struggled to get out of some of the thicker rough around the place with them.

 

I realise tech has moved on since 1999, but I'm fairly well settled into my blades now, so am sticking with them until I wear them out.

[Jifmoli]

I lost about 4 or 5 strokes when switching from player CB (Titleist 755) to (s)gi clubs (Cleveland cg16 and now Srixon Z 355), but... I am now around 24hc so not in the group you are asking about. Yet, the most used club on the tour is the AP2 so if that added forgiveness had no effect, all those scratch players would be playing blades, no? You do lose some precision with sgi clubs - i have one blade (pw) in the bag and you just feel you can clean pick the ball off the ground better than with sgi clubs. So I would imagine that most of you single figure players or better would lose a bit too much feel and therefore your hc would suffer. Also the popularity of mixed bags would suggest that just switching to full sgi set is not the best way to go but can be useful for the long irons.

[tercoidegw]

Zero improvement. Now I play CB instead of MB because age. What you gain in forgiveness you lose at work-ability.

[hybrid25]

I use game improvement irons, but a couple things you need to concern yourself with are bounce and offset. Thee aspects are usually more pronounced with gi irons. I draw the ball and too much offset creates hooking irons.

[hardpan1]

Last winter I bought some used Adams Redline irons, SGI...chipping went to hell, distance control suffered, off tight lies was much more difficult, trajectory was lower with less spin (stop 7 iron!!)...just pre ordered the new Mizuno MP-20's :)

[tsecor]

No scoring difference. Typically I play a 712 CB and recently tried many rounds with the TA Atomic Irons. The GI Irons allow you to hit different types of shots with a little more confidence, but what they add in long iron forgiveness, they take back in short game play. Scoring stayed the same for me. I do like the ability to hit a 3I off the tee with confidence though.

[shanx]

> @IHFN said:

> I've gone back and forth over the years and here's what I've found...

>

> Yes game improvement irons make make your misses a little bit better, but if you hit the ball way off on the toe, it doesn't matter what club it is, you are going to miss the green. Blades like cobra's have gotten a little bit more forgiving where you can just miss the sweet spot and still be fine. The biggest difference to me is that when I hit a blade with a good swing, it does exactly what I want flight wise and my distance control is excellent. When I hit game improvement irons with a good swing, the distance is questionable as well as the flight.

>

> So my good shots aren't as good with game improvements, but my bad shots may not be as bad.

>

> That means when I'm on with GI irons, my play isn't going to be as good and I'm not going to be close to the hole. When I'm bad with GI, it may be a little bit better, but I have enough confidence in my short game that I don't care if I'm 5 yards off the green or 10 or 15.

>

> Therefore, I'll continue to use blades.

 

This.

 

Played a half season with some Cally X20 Tours, not exactly a GI club, but has wide soles, offset and jacked up lofts. Scores really didn't drop as much as I thought they would, GIRs didn't either. I could hit repeatable, high straight shots though, that tended to fly farther than a blade of the same loft.

 

What I could not do, is hit the pitches, lobs, "skippers" that I could with blades. The soles and offset really didn't help much around the greens. I also had trouble trying to hit rescue shots (hooking around hazards, hitting a super high fade over trees), that I could do easily with blades, the Callys just wanted to go high and straight.

 

I'm playing MP15s or MP5s now, they are a far cry in terms of forgiveness and playabilty from the MP29s that I gamed for years. The modern blades today are so much easier to play...