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How does OEMs measure Club lengths ....


Howard_Jones

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I should have done this long ago, but better late than never, so ive sent a request to a handful OEMs and asked about whats their measure standard, the first reply is in already, but its anything but promising....no wonder specs seems to be "off"...

 

My question is the same for all, and is:

-_ It seems like different brands is using different measure standard for play lengths, so numbers is not always "compatible", so my question is, - How does (Brand name) measure play lengths? _

 

First reply was from TITLEIST

-Playing length is total length of the club, is that what you mean ? Lay the club in a corner, with the clubhead in the corner measurement would be from the corner to top of the grip.

 

im giving them a second chance....no reply from the others yet

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From my experience most of them measure the club soled at a 60* angle from the ground

to the top of the shaft without a grip. Depending on the grip choice (some have more girth in the butt cap) the grip can add approx 1/8” to 1/4” to the final playing length or to “specs” published by the oems.

 

 

Ping G430 Max 10.5 Tensei Orange AV Raw 55 Reg

Ping G430 SFT 5w 19* Alta Black Reg

Ping G430 SFT 7w 23* Alta Black Reg

Tour Edge Xrail 5h 26* Graphite Design G-Series Reg

Ping G425 6-UW Alta Slate Reg

Ping Glide 4.0 56* WS Nippon Z-115

Cleveland CBX Full Face 2 60* DG Spinner

Cleveland Smart Sole C 4.0 

Ping 2023 Anser D

Handicap: 8.2

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Tom Wishon - measure to grip gap edge. Dont use the USGA 60° method for all clubs. Its only used to enforse the maximum club length rule.

Maltby - measure to grip cap edge.

Titleist and Ping emails to Customer Relations - "rather than backcut 1/8" to account for grip cap, finished club length spec is based on a cut shaft length (ungripped) and does not include the approx. 1/8" a grip cap adds".They ignore the grip cap - which can vary from grip to grip.

Again Titleist - "we work with +/- 1/8" tolerances since there are many different butt cap sizes for each grip model."

"Length is determined prior to the grip being added but accounted for in production"

Hope this helps

M60

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> @grm24 said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> For Irons TM slightly changed the way they measure them. Here is a link to it. Info is on 2nd page of document.

> https://www.taylormadegolf.com/on/demandware.static/-/Sites-tmag-master-catalog/default/v1557994372776/manuals/LengthMeasurementNotice.pdf

 

interesting, the TM " new ground plane method" is a method that has been around for decades, wonder why it took so long for TM to use it.

M60

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Mizuno has this drawing and explanation on their Japanese web page...i never saw anything like it.

4t4umx7clo09.png

 

https://www.mizuno.co.jp/customer/faq/golf/qa/club_length.aspx

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Titleist came back, and here is their reply to a bit modified question since the first answer was....like it was...

 

My question to Titleist:

What MEASURE STANDARD, DOES TITLEIST USE for play lengths?

- a fixed 60* ruler like the USGA standard?

- a variable lie angle ruler?

- another method?

- with or with out grip?

 

TITLEIST REPLY:

"We use a proprietary length board that was designed by our engineers here at Acushnet. It does take lie angle into consideration. The club lengths that are published on our website DO NOT include the grip. For instance, when we list a 7 iron at 37", that is an ungripped 7 iron. "

DO NOT SEND PMs WITH CLUB TECH QUESTIONS - USE THE PUBLIC FORUM.

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> @J13 said:

> > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > Titleist came back, and here is their reply to a bit modified question since the first answer was....like it was...

> >

> > My question to Titleist:

> > What MEASURE STANDARD, DOES TITLEIST USE for play lengths?

> > - a fixed 60* ruler like the USGA standard?

> > - a variable lie angle ruler?

> > - another method?

> > - with or with out grip?

> >

> > TITLEIST REPLY:

> > "We use a proprietary length board that was designed by our engineers here at Acushnet. It does take lie angle into consideration. The club lengths that are published on our website DO NOT include the grip. For instance, when we list a 7 iron at 37", that is an ungripped 7 iron. "

>

> Not sure about you but I play my irons without grips so I'm glad Titleist measures this way

 

You don't swing a club differently when the grip cap (entirely behind your hands) if round rather than squared off. Why would you want them to measure it as having different lengths round vs. squared off grips?

 

If you replace the stock Tour Velvet 360 Flat Cap grip on your 7-iron with a Tour Velvet BCT, do you reckon that your 37" inch club now plays 1/8" longer?

 

The alternative would be to publish length specs for each club with every model of grip on the market.

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Mizuno measures using 60* rule and excludes the grip cap. 35.25" wedges are 35.5" gripped. Their 37.75" 5irons are 38" gripped

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Club length and playing length are "now" two different measurements? Since I grip down about 1/2-3/4" on every grip all I care about is playing length. For that, my club builder and I use a 48" steel ruler held on an angle with the tip of the ruler under the center of the heal of the club touching the floor, as the club with my choice of grip-on leans against the ruler.

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> @Albatross85 said:

> Mizuno measures using 60* rule and excludes the grip cap. 35.25" wedges are 35.5" gripped. Their 37.75" 5irons are 38" gripped

 

This is my experience as well for Mizuno. No grip.

Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver
Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid
Ping G30 irons w/Recoil 95

Ping G425 irons w/Accra ICWT 2.0 95
Ping Glide wedges w/Recoil 110
Ping Redwood Anser - the "real deal!"

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> @"North Butte" said:

> > @J13 said:

> > > @"Howard Jones" said:

> > > Titleist came back, and here is their reply to a bit modified question since the first answer was....like it was...

> > >

> > > My question to Titleist:

> > > What MEASURE STANDARD, DOES TITLEIST USE for play lengths?

> > > - a fixed 60* ruler like the USGA standard?

> > > - a variable lie angle ruler?

> > > - another method?

> > > - with or with out grip?

> > >

> > > TITLEIST REPLY:

> > > "We use a proprietary length board that was designed by our engineers here at Acushnet. It does take lie angle into consideration. The club lengths that are published on our website DO NOT include the grip. For instance, when we list a 7 iron at 37", that is an ungripped 7 iron. "

> >

> > Not sure about you but I play my irons without grips so I'm glad Titleist measures this way

>

> You don't swing a club differently when the grip cap (entirely behind your hands) if round rather than squared off. Why would you want them to measure it as having different lengths round vs. squared off grips?

>

> If you replace the stock Tour Velvet 360 Flat Cap grip on your 7-iron with a Tour Velvet BCT, do you reckon that your 37" inch club now plays 1/8" longer?

>

> The alternative would be to publish length specs for each club with every model of grip on the market.

 

I think 1/8th of an inch matters to no one who doesn't play golf for a living. Titleist should measure based on stock grip and leave it at that.

Titleist TSR3 8* / Fuji Ventus Black TR 6X               

Titleist TSR2+ / Fuji Ventus Black TR 7X               

Callaway UW / Fuji Ventu Black 8X

Edel SMS iron 4-5 / DG TI X100 /////  SMS PRO irons 6-PW / DG TI X100

Edel SMS 50V, 54T, 60T / DG TI S400/ BGT ZNE 130

Edel PROTO




 

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When the length is measure with a grip on, it should always be measured to the edge of the grip cap - never the top of any dome it might have. So the shape of the cap or if it has a dome or not shouldn't make any difference. Now even when dome properly, different grip models can still add between 1/16" to 1/4" to the playing length. 1/8" is probably the more common amount and what many builders will use to account for the grip (regardless of what the actual grip might do). But a factory assembly line setting is a lot different than a custom builder (whether pro or hobby). Itt makes the factory building process much easier to just ignore the amount the grip adds or just assume a fixed amount for the grip like some builders. Either way, the choice is arbitrary and it seems that there is a fairly even split among the OEM's. And the easier the factory process, the better the QA will be for the end product.

 

 

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PING has replied, and they also got a bit modified question like this>

 

Does PING use ACTUAL lie angle on your Ruler?

Ground plane (center of sole, flat surfaced ruler the sole rest against), or "pin height" who compensate for different heel to to camber between head designs?

With or without grips?

if grip is included, to to top included the dome, or to "the edge", ex the dome of the grip?

Im trying to collect this info for a tread in the Club making forum on GolfWRX as reference.

 

Their answer....

 

"- This can be a very complicated question when someone dives into it but we will be happy to provide as much information as we are allowed.

- We have our own proprietary devices that our engineers have built which provides us with our own way of doing almost every part of production including measuring the length of a club.

- Standard production uses a vice that clamps our irons in horizontally along with cameras and multiple connection points where the club has to touch to assist in giving our team a digital reading of the lie angle.

- Length can be measured using our device that also places the club horizontally on a table and allows us to use the same device in different ways to measure irons, woods, or hybrids.

- The total playing length with our gage can be measured with a grip on or off but the final length will account for the extra approximately 1/4" between the end of the shaft and the end of the grip."

 

I cant say i became much wiser, they have their own ruler who includes cameras and lasers, and it seems like they are not allowed to answer the question they got....PING has their own, "secret ruler and method".

 

.....but its most likely like the same ruler system like the others, a ruler with variable lie angle, assisted by lasers and cameras.

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So to summerize: OEM's aren't even in the same book let alone the same page.

And you wonder why WRX is littered with threads about "I ordered this and got this and who is wrong?"

 

Titleist - Uses actual lie angle and end of shaft.

TaylorMade - Uses the USGA 60º and to end of grip cap. But, has 2 different standard lengths.

Mizuno - Looks like actual lie angle to end of grip cap (if you believe the linked image)

or the USGA method and to end of shaft butt. (I believe the latter). ???

Ping - Uses actual lie angle and to end of grip cap.

 

Is this accurate so far?

  • Haha 1

Ping G400 9º TFC 419 Stiff at 45"

Jazz 3 wd Powercoil Stiff
Rogue 3iron Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
X2 Hot 4-AW Recoil 660 F3 +1/2"
Vokey SM2 52º cc, SM4 56°, SM4 60°
Ping Sigma2 Valor at 34.75"
MCC Align Midsize

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> @Socrates said:

> So to summerize: OEM's aren't even in the same book let alone the same page.

> And you wonder why WRX is littered with threads about "I ordered this and got this and who is wrong?"

>

> Titleist - Uses actual lie angle and end of shaft.

> TaylorMade - Uses the USGA 60º and to end of grip cap. But, has 2 different standard lengths.

> Mizuno - Looks like actual lie angle to end of grip cap (if you believe the linked image)

> or the USGA method and to end of shaft butt. (I believe the latter). ???

> Ping - Uses actual lie angle and to end of grip cap.

>

> Is this accurate so far?

 

Taylormade seems to be the only one who uses the USGA standard for drivers on their irons.

- ALL others have in common that they are using the old method with a variable lie angle ruler.

- Titleist specs is UN-Gripped.

- Mizuno subtract 3/8", seem like 1/8" for varieties in heel to to camber, the rest Gros grip cap 2/8" included the Dome. Im a bit insecure how to understand the drawing, if its end of net shaft , but that makes no sense since they mention the grip in the text, so its probably to the corner, or "ex Dome".

- That means we can read them as "un-gripped" 1/8" shorter on the paper vs a ruler with a flat 60 angle with center of sole contact. (for a 60* lie club, a 64* will measure /return a value up to 2.46 mm shorter on a 60* ruler vs the variable lie ruler)

- Wilson staff to the corner of the grip, or "ex Dome"

 

A grip like Golf Pride Tour Velvet who is typical as OEM grip, has a grip cap of 1/8" and a Dome of 1/8" a total of 1/4"

mmha282uhqe9.jpg

 

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Ping measures w/o a grip. I've rebuilt a number of sets and they pretty much all measure this way other than the really old stuff.

Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver
Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid
Ping G30 irons w/Recoil 95

Ping G425 irons w/Accra ICWT 2.0 95
Ping Glide wedges w/Recoil 110
Ping Redwood Anser - the "real deal!"

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> @Nessism said:

> Ping measures w/o a grip. I've rebuilt a number of sets and they pretty much all measure this way other than the really old stuff.

 

So what you are saying is, specs we see on their web page is UN-gripped clubs just like Titleist?

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@Nessism and @Stuart_G

 

I took me sometime to understand why the 3 of us has been arguing about GRIP CAP THICKNESS....

Ive insisted that its 1/8", Ness insist its 1/4", and both is right, depending on what point of the grip we measure it all to.

 

The way we was told to do this at Mitchell, was to measure to the edge, or "ex dome". and then the Grip cap on a typical OEM grip like Tour Velvet is 1/8", but if we measure to the top of Dome its 1/4", but i took for granted that "we all" measured to the edge......assuming there is a common standard is not smart when we talk Golf equipment, my Bad, this should have been up earlier...how we measure.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> > @Nessism said:

> > Ping measures w/o a grip. I've rebuilt a number of sets and they pretty much all measure this way other than the really old stuff.

>

> So what you are saying is, specs we see on their web page is UN-gripped clubs just like Titleist?

 

I know nothing about Titleist, just Ping and Mizuno, and both measure without a grip. Again, I've measured enough to know this. OR maybe I should say it this way...if you take a Ping or Mizuno and measure the length using a 60 degree pin then the club will measure to spec w/o a grip (to within 1/8" anyway.) I know you think 1/8" matters, but in my experience that's within the repeatability of most OEM's (if you get lucky.)

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Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver
Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid
Ping G30 irons w/Recoil 95

Ping G425 irons w/Accra ICWT 2.0 95
Ping Glide wedges w/Recoil 110
Ping Redwood Anser - the "real deal!"

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> @Nessism and @Stuart_G

>

> I took me sometime to understand why the 3 of us has been arguing about GRIP CAP THICKNESS....

> Ive insisted that its 1/8", Ness insist its 1/4", and both is right, depending on what point of the grip we measure it all to.

 

Sorry if we are having an english translation problem but I never said all grip caps are 1/4". Different grips have different cap thicknesses.

 

 

Ping G400 Max driver w/Aldila Rogue 125 Silver
Ping G425 5 wood & hybrid
Ping G30 irons w/Recoil 95

Ping G425 irons w/Accra ICWT 2.0 95
Ping Glide wedges w/Recoil 110
Ping Redwood Anser - the "real deal!"

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This made me curious, so I measured some of the older demo clubs we have in the shop vs what is stated on the manufacturers website. I have a Mitchell ruler setup. All the lengths were within 1/16" of the website data. We measured:

Callaway XR 7 iron

Taylormade M2 7 iron

Mizuno JPX 900 Hot Metal 7 iron

Taylormade P790 UDI 2 Iron

Titleist Vokey 48° wedge.

Cobra MIM 56° wedge

 

All the measurements were extremely close to what is stated on the websites.

Now putters, that's a different story. Taylormade spider putters are all 1/4" short of what they are supposed to be using the Mitchell ruler with the "house" shaped piece.

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I recently received Callaway apex cf16 irons with recoil shafts that we’re listed on CPO as standard length. I had them measured by a very highly rated club builder and the specs were with the cap. They were 1/8” shorter than my taylormade Speedblades with similar specs. I had them extended 1/8” and are now perfect.

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Basically every OEM does it differently, which is why I almost almost do things myself. I use the 60* method and base all my lengths off of that, right or wrong. I've established my own "custom length" chart using this method so whether a OEM uses a grip or not, 60* or variable lie method makes no difference to me.

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> @"Howard Jones" said:

> I should have done this long ago, but better late than never, so ive sent a request to a handful OEMs and asked about whats their measure standard, the first reply is in already, but its anything but promising....no wonder specs seems to be "off"...

>

> My question is the same for all, and is:

> -_ It seems like different brands is using different measure standard for play lengths, so numbers is not always "compatible", so my question is, - How does (Brand name) measure play lengths? _

>

> First reply was from TITLEIST

> -Playing length is total length of the club, is that what you mean ? Lay the club in a corner, with the clubhead in the corner measurement would be from the corner to top of the grip.

>

> im giving them a second chance....no reply from the others yet

 

I figured you will get some interesting response from the OEM, and never disappointed.

By the meaning of "PLAYING LENGTH" why would anyone measure an ungripped golf club ? Do they expect the golfer to use the golf club without a grip on it ?

I always measure the playing length with the grip installed and from the end cap of the grip to where the golf club would make contact with the turf. That's more logical for implying the term of playing length. That's how I measure my own irons, but, I'll not argue with anyone likes a different way instead.

The OEM use ungripped measurement not because they think it's logical to measure with the actual playing condition but because for the ease of standardize the method of measuring, since not all golf grips have the same thickness built into the end cap, it can be as much as 1/10" difference.

When I reshaft an iron and not able to save the original grip, I always ask to see the two extra irons. If I'm reshafting the 7 iron, I'd like to have the 8i and the 6i on hands so I could reference back to get the exact length to fit into the set. Some golfers are so finicky, they'll eyeball or even measure the reshafted club with a ruler.

I think you have proven that, there is no standard in the golf equipment, as we have known it forever.

 

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  • 11 months later...
  • 2 months later...

I know this is an older thread but I just received my Ralph Maltby Ruler (accounts for lie angle) from GolfWorks. Very high quality but is consistently reading 3/16ths longer than stated OEM specs. For example and Ungripped “Standard” SIM measured to 45-7/8ths @ 56* lie angle. Every other club coming in similarly long across varying brands. I have access to a Mitchell Ruler which seems to be right on but this one is surprisingly long. Anyone else have one of these?   

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      Sepp Straka - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Patrick Rodgers - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Brendon Todd - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Denny McCarthy - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Corey Conners - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Chase Johnson - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tommy Fleetwood - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Matt Fitzpatrick - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Si Woo Kim - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Viktor Hovland - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Wyndham Clark - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Cam Davis - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Nick Taylor - WITB - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Ben Baller WITB update (New putter, driver, hybrid and shafts) – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
      Pullout Albums
       
      New Vortex Golf rangefinder - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Fujikura Ventus shaft - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods & TaylorMade "Sun Day Red" apparel launch event, product photos – 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods Sun Day Red golf shoes - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Aretera shafts - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      New Toulon putters - 2024 Genesis Invitational
      Tiger Woods' new white "Sun Day Red" golf shoe prototypes – 2024 Genesis Invitational
       
       
       
       
       
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