What is the one rule you wish could be changed

[Halebopp]

> @gioguy21 said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > > >

> > > > > ...learn to hit it further with accuracy? or play a different box? not sure what to tell you man, that fairway looks wide enough you could hit it further up the right side where the left elbow begins.

> > > >

> > > > You're completely missing the point of this discussion.

> > >

> > > am i tho?

> > I think you are

> > He wasn't looking to be told anything about the hole management. LICC wanted pics of a certain scenario of a large PA close to tee box. Thus the pics.

>

> There are large PAs on many courses off tees. My point was what was he attempting to do or play based on the shot? Is he trying to say it's not supposed to be a pa?

 

Oh my...

 

> @LICC said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > >

> > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> >

> > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

>

> Is this a par 5? Why would you take the line you drew in the 1st picture?

 

Yes, it's a par 5. I'll answer your second question right after you tell me why you would ever hit a ball OB.

[gioguy21]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ...learn to hit it further with accuracy? or play a different box? not sure what to tell you man, that fairway looks wide enough you could hit it further up the right side where the left elbow begins.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're completely missing the point of this discussion.

> > > >

> > > > am i tho?

> > > I think you are

> > > He wasn't looking to be told anything about the hole management. LICC wanted pics of a certain scenario of a large PA close to tee box. Thus the pics.

> >

> > There are large PAs on many courses off tees. My point was what was he attempting to do or play based on the shot? Is he trying to say it's not supposed to be a pa?

>

> Oh my...

>

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > >

> > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > >

> > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> >

> > Is this a par 5? Why would you take the line you drew in the 1st picture?

>

> Yes, it's a par 5. I'll answer your second question right after you tell me why you would ever hit a ball OB.

 

oh my is right. -- either make the carry or don't. take the penalty, and hit again. wherever that may be.

[LICC]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ...learn to hit it further with accuracy? or play a different box? not sure what to tell you man, that fairway looks wide enough you could hit it further up the right side where the left elbow begins.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're completely missing the point of this discussion.

> > > >

> > > > am i tho?

> > > I think you are

> > > He wasn't looking to be told anything about the hole management. LICC wanted pics of a certain scenario of a large PA close to tee box. Thus the pics.

> >

> > There are large PAs on many courses off tees. My point was what was he attempting to do or play based on the shot? Is he trying to say it's not supposed to be a pa?

>

> Oh my...

>

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > >

> > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > >

> > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> >

> > Is this a par 5? Why would you take the line you drew in the 1st picture?

>

> Yes, it's a par 5. I'll answer your second question right after you tell me why you would ever hit a ball OB.

 

So you were drawing a line of what would be a bad pull shot? Ok I got it.

 

This just looks like an oddball hole. I don’t think I’ve ever played a hole where you tee off 5 yards from being surrounded by water that extends 200 yards. And I’ve played lots of courses. It’s just a bad hole. One bad hole doesn’t justify an illogical overly penal rule.

[sui generis]

> @LICC said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > >

> > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > >

> > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > >

> > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > >

> > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > >

> > > This is silly.

> >

> > Yes, it is silly . . . and your trolling is the cause of the silliness.

> >

> >

>

> Discussing the merits of a rule, which is the topic of the OP, is trolling to you. Sure.

 

In that case, you seem mightily unfamiliar with the Rules and have blundered into this folder to kvetch.

[LICC]

> @Halebopp said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > >

> > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > >

> > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > >

> > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

>

> The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

 

The penal aspect of that hole is it's design (bad design). If you hit it in the water, you can hit your next shot from as far as possible as your first shot went over land. Which is fair- you get credit for the distance you hit the ball over the playable area, and you get a one-stroke penalty for the ball ending in an unplayable area. The rest of the penalty is from the hole design, not a bad rule. In more typical situations, with OB, you get no credit for hitting the ball over the playable area and have an effective two-stroke penalty. Illogical.

[LICC]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > >

> > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > >

> > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > >

> > > > This is silly.

> > >

> > > Yes, it is silly . . . and your trolling is the cause of the silliness.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Discussing the merits of a rule, which is the topic of the OP, is trolling to you. Sure.

>

> In that case, you seem mightily unfamiliar with the Rules and have blundered into this folder to kvetch.

 

The only two comments in this discussion that I would characterize as kvetching are yours. I'm enjoying the discussion with @davep043 , @Halebopp , @Vindog , and @Roadking2003

[Halebopp]

> @LICC said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > ...learn to hit it further with accuracy? or play a different box? not sure what to tell you man, that fairway looks wide enough you could hit it further up the right side where the left elbow begins.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You're completely missing the point of this discussion.

> > > > >

> > > > > am i tho?

> > > > I think you are

> > > > He wasn't looking to be told anything about the hole management. LICC wanted pics of a certain scenario of a large PA close to tee box. Thus the pics.

> > >

> > > There are large PAs on many courses off tees. My point was what was he attempting to do or play based on the shot? Is he trying to say it's not supposed to be a pa?

> >

> > Oh my...

> >

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > >

> > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > >

> > > Is this a par 5? Why would you take the line you drew in the 1st picture?

> >

> > Yes, it's a par 5. I'll answer your second question right after you tell me why you would ever hit a ball OB.

>

> So you were drawing a line of what would be a bad pull shot? Ok I got it.

>

> This just looks like an oddball hole. I don’t think I’ve ever played a hole where you tee off 5 yards from being surrounded by water that extends 200 yards. And I’ve played lots of courses. It’s just a bad hole. One bad hole doesn’t justify an illogical overly penal rule.

 

It's not a bad hole, it's a great hole but a tough one, especially as the prevailing wind is from the green to the tee. Play it with three straight iron shots and you're never in any trouble. If you're brave enough you can shave tens of yards off your shot onto the green by taking on the water with your second shot.

 

As for the actual subject, I think I'm done with it as I think it'll just lead to more wasted time for us both.

[sui generis]

> @LICC said:

> > @"sui generis" said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > >

> > > > > This is silly.

> > > >

> > > > Yes, it is silly . . . and your trolling is the cause of the silliness.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Discussing the merits of a rule, which is the topic of the OP, is trolling to you. Sure.

> >

> > In that case, you seem mightily unfamiliar with the Rules and have blundered into this folder to kvetch.

>

> The only two comments in this discussion that I would characterize as kvetching are yours. I'm enjoying the discussion with @davep043 , @Halebopp , @Vindog , and @Roadking2003

 

Let us know when your enlightenment occurs. A couple of these folks understand the Rules and their attempts to help you understand the Rules, thus far seem fruitless.

[LICC]

 

> > > > There are large PAs on many courses off tees. My point was what was he attempting to do or play based on the shot? Is he trying to say it's not supposed to be a pa?

> > >

> > > Oh my...

> > >

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > >

> > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > >

> > > > Is this a par 5? Why would you take the line you drew in the 1st picture?

> > >

> > > Yes, it's a par 5. I'll answer your second question right after you tell me why you would ever hit a ball OB.

> >

> > So you were drawing a line of what would be a bad pull shot? Ok I got it.

> >

> > This just looks like an oddball hole. I don’t think I’ve ever played a hole where you tee off 5 yards from being surrounded by water that extends 200 yards. And I’ve played lots of courses. It’s just a bad hole. One bad hole doesn’t justify an illogical overly penal rule.

>

> It's not a bad hole, it's a great hole but a tough one, especially as the prevailing wind is from the green to the tee. Play it with three straight iron shots and you're never in any trouble. If you're brave enough you can shave tens of yards off your shot onto the green by taking on the water with your second shot.

>

> As for the actual subject, I think I'm done with it as I think it'll just lead to more wasted time for us both.

 

You're right, I shouldn't have said it's a bad hole. Apologies. It's an uncommon design with a penal tee shot. That still doesn't justify a bad overly penal rule.

[LICC]

> @"sui generis" said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @"sui generis" said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > This is silly.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yes, it is silly . . . and your trolling is the cause of the silliness.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > Discussing the merits of a rule, which is the topic of the OP, is trolling to you. Sure.

> > >

> > > In that case, you seem mightily unfamiliar with the Rules and have blundered into this folder to kvetch.

> >

> > The only two comments in this discussion that I would characterize as kvetching are yours. I'm enjoying the discussion with @davep043 , @Halebopp , @Vindog , and @Roadking2003

>

> Let us know when your enlightenment occurs. A couple of these folks understand the Rules and their attempts to help you understand the Rules, thus far seem fruitless.

 

Your obnoxiousness aside, I understand exactly how illogical is the rule.

[Vindog]

> @gioguy21 said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > > >

> > > > > ...learn to hit it further with accuracy? or play a different box? not sure what to tell you man, that fairway looks wide enough you could hit it further up the right side where the left elbow begins.

> > > >

> > > > You're completely missing the point of this discussion.

> > >

> > > am i tho?

> > I think you are

> > He wasn't looking to be told anything about the hole management. LICC wanted pics of a certain scenario of a large PA close to tee box. Thus the pics.

>

> There are large PAs on many courses off tees. My point was what was he attempting to do or play based on the shot? Is he trying to say it's not supposed to be a pa?

 

No.

 

You’re definitely missing parts of the discussion, which is fine.

[gioguy21]

> @Vindog said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > ...learn to hit it further with accuracy? or play a different box? not sure what to tell you man, that fairway looks wide enough you could hit it further up the right side where the left elbow begins.

> > > > >

> > > > > You're completely missing the point of this discussion.

> > > >

> > > > am i tho?

> > > I think you are

> > > He wasn't looking to be told anything about the hole management. LICC wanted pics of a certain scenario of a large PA close to tee box. Thus the pics.

> >

> > There are large PAs on many courses off tees. My point was what was he attempting to do or play based on the shot? Is he trying to say it's not supposed to be a pa?

>

> No.

 

this stroke distance discussion is absurd - the water in question is a hazard; take your drop accordingly. yea, it sucks b/c you didn't clear the water but guess what...it's a hard friggin hole -- OR you made a bad stroke.

 

as for the banter about gaining strokes by skulling a wedge OB or something - under previous rules you would've had to drop where you originally hit the ball OB so...nothing gained (not sure why you'd consider the yards 'gained' on a 20y pitch shot that leaves you 40y into the green b/c you skulled it 60y...but that's another story).

[Vindog]

> @LICC said:

> > @Halebopp said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > >

> > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> >

> > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

>

> The penal aspect of that hole is it's design (bad design). If you hit it in the water, you can hit your next shot from as far as possible as your first shot went over land. Which is fair- you get credit for the distance you hit the ball over the playable area, and you get a one-stroke penalty for the ball ending in an unplayable area. The rest of the penalty is from the hole design, not a bad rule. In more typical situations, with OB, you get no credit for hitting the ball over the playable area and have an effective two-stroke penalty. Illogical.

 

Both the stroke penalty and the distance penalty are 100% logical. Don’t like the definitions? That’s fair but it’s subjective.

 

 

[LICC]

> @Vindog said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > >

> > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > >

> > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> >

> > The penal aspect of that hole is it's design (bad design). If you hit it in the water, you can hit your next shot from as far as possible as your first shot went over land. Which is fair- you get credit for the distance you hit the ball over the playable area, and you get a one-stroke penalty for the ball ending in an unplayable area. The rest of the penalty is from the hole design, not a bad rule. In more typical situations, with OB, you get no credit for hitting the ball over the playable area and have an effective two-stroke penalty. Illogical.

>

> Both the stroke penalty and the distance penalty are 100% logical. Don’t like the definitions? That’s fair but it’s subjective.

>

>

 

You still can't explain why the distance penalty for OB but not for PA is logical.

[LICC]

> @Vindog said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > >

> > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > >

> > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> >

> > The penal aspect of that hole is it's design (bad design). If you hit it in the water, you can hit your next shot from as far as possible as your first shot went over land. Which is fair- you get credit for the distance you hit the ball over the playable area, and you get a one-stroke penalty for the ball ending in an unplayable area. The rest of the penalty is from the hole design, not a bad rule. In more typical situations, with OB, you get no credit for hitting the ball over the playable area and have an effective two-stroke penalty. Illogical.

>

> Both the stroke penalty and the distance penalty are 100% logical. Don’t like the definitions? That’s fair but it’s subjective.

>

>

The definitions have nothing to do with the fairness.

 

[Vindog]

I thought I did earlier then Bean and Newby took care of that again. I could repeat what they said insofar as definitions and playing areas are concerned. But that really all there is to it.

 

One is defined as part of the course. You may play out of it, and if you can’t then it’s relief with a one stroke penalty. Since it is on the course the distance gained counts.

One is off the course. the distance gained is cancelled but the stroke counts. You will have to re hit for another stroke then add one stroke penalty.

[HatsForBats]

> @LICC said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > >

> > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > >

> > > The penal aspect of that hole is it's design (bad design). If you hit it in the water, you can hit your next shot from as far as possible as your first shot went over land. Which is fair- you get credit for the distance you hit the ball over the playable area, and you get a one-stroke penalty for the ball ending in an unplayable area. The rest of the penalty is from the hole design, not a bad rule. In more typical situations, with OB, you get no credit for hitting the ball over the playable area and have an effective two-stroke penalty. Illogical.

> >

> > Both the stroke penalty and the distance penalty are 100% logical. Don’t like the definitions? That’s fair but it’s subjective.

> >

> >

>

> You still can't explain why the distance penalty for OB but not for PA is logical.

 

Having played in a league for many years that plays no loss of distance for an OB shot I can say that it changes the dynamics. It happens often enough that some higher handicapper knocks one OB drops near where they went OB and then ends up making a bogey or double bogey for net par which drives me nuts when I make a good par only to tie the hole.

 

If they did change the OB to no loss of distance then I would think every course would need to be re-rated and hole handicaps would need to be restructured. Mostly I have more of a problem with the way some courses are designed with lack of room to safely err to an area with a lot less risk of going OB. I just mostly avoid courses that are poorly designed with respect to OB areas.

[LICC]

> @Vindog said:

> I thought I did earlier then Bean and Newby took care of that again. I could repeat what they said insofar as definitions and playing areas are concerned. But that really all there is to it.

>

> One is defined as part of the course. You may play out of it, and if you can’t then it’s relief with a one stroke penalty. Since it is on the course the distance gained counts.

> One is off the course. the distance gained is cancelled but the stroke counts. You will have to re hit for another stroke then add one stroke penalty.

 

Again, that is a distinction without a difference. Why should it matter if it is considered "part of the course" or not (and not even getting into the issue of internal OB)? You have a target, you swing, the ball goes wayward, it ends at a place that is irretrievable. One shot gets you one penalty and the exact same other shot gets you two penalties. What does it matter if the landing spot is "part of the course" or not?

[davep043]

> @Vindog said:

> Both the stroke penalty and the distance penalty are 100% logical. Don’t like the definitions? That’s fair but it’s subjective.

This is it, in a nutshell. OB and PA are two different areas, as defined by the Rules. The Rules need to define specific areas, that's the job of rulemakers, to define specific things and then define how to deal with them. The rulemakers also have to decide the order of the severity of the mistakes when they decide on the severity of the penalty for each of the potential mistakes. To me, hitting it off of the property, missing the entire golf course, is worse than hitting it into a PA that is ON the property. Therefore, the penalty should be greater. Similarly, losing a ball, not knowing where it is even though it is believed to be on dry land, is a pretty big mistake, and deserves to have a pretty severe punishment.

I looked back at the history of the OB rules at http://ruleshistory.com/lost.html. Out of Bounds was not even defined until the 1880s, prior to that it was apparently just a lost ball. The penalty has varied, most of the time was stroke and distance, occasionally as distance only (replay the shot with no penalty), occasionally the penalty was allowed to be varied by local rule. Obviously the Ruling Bodies have gone back and forth on this over the years.

I find it interesting when @LICC suggests that the mistake of hitting it off of the golf course is the same level mistake as hitting a PA that might be crossing the fairway, so deserves to have the punishment decreased, then turns around and says that hitting some of these big PAs is a huge mistake and deserves the severe punishment of essentially stroke and distance. Since you see it splash out there, shouldn't you take your stroke penalty and drop it on dry land about even with where the splash was?

 

 

 

[Vindog]

> @LICC said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > I thought I did earlier then Bean and Newby took care of that again. I could repeat what they said insofar as definitions and playing areas are concerned. But that really all there is to it.

> >

> > One is defined as part of the course. You may play out of it, and if you can’t then it’s relief with a one stroke penalty. Since it is on the course the distance gained counts.

> > One is off the course. the distance gained is cancelled but the stroke counts. You will have to re hit for another stroke then add one stroke penalty.

>

> Again, that is a distinction without a difference. Why should it matter if it is considered "part of the course" or not (and not even getting into the issue of internal OB)? You have a target, you swing, the ball goes wayward, it ends at a place that is irretrievable. One shot gets you one penalty and the exact same other shot gets you two penalties. What does it matter if the landing spot is "part of the course" or not?

 

If you are wondering what the difference is between part of the course and not part of the course, then I have to wonder about how obtuse this discussion is.

 

And for the record I can not stand internal OB.

[LICC]

> @HatsForBats said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > >

> > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > >

> > > > The penal aspect of that hole is it's design (bad design). If you hit it in the water, you can hit your next shot from as far as possible as your first shot went over land. Which is fair- you get credit for the distance you hit the ball over the playable area, and you get a one-stroke penalty for the ball ending in an unplayable area. The rest of the penalty is from the hole design, not a bad rule. In more typical situations, with OB, you get no credit for hitting the ball over the playable area and have an effective two-stroke penalty. Illogical.

> > >

> > > Both the stroke penalty and the distance penalty are 100% logical. Don’t like the definitions? That’s fair but it’s subjective.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > You still can't explain why the distance penalty for OB but not for PA is logical.

>

> Having played in a league for many years that plays no loss of distance for an OB shot I can say that it changes the dynamics. It happens often enough that some higher handicapper knocks one OB drops near where they went OB and then ends up making a bogey or double bogey for net par which drives me nuts when I make a good par only to tie the hole.

>

> If they did change the OB to no loss of distance then I would think every course would need to be re-rated and hole handicaps would need to be restructured. Mostly I have more of a problem with the way some courses are designed with lack of room to safely err to an area with a lot less risk of going OB. I just mostly avoid courses that are poorly designed with respect to OB areas.

 

Why does it drive you nuts? He gets a stroke on the hole. He hit a bad shot. He dropped where it went OB and gets a penalty stroke for that bad shot. Why should he get two penalties for one bad shot? That was his stroke to get because of his handicap. He then must have played the rest of the hole well to take a 5 for a 4. Does it drive you nuts the same way if he hits it into a pond and then gets a 5 for a 4?

[LICC]

> @Vindog said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > I thought I did earlier then Bean and Newby took care of that again. I could repeat what they said insofar as definitions and playing areas are concerned. But that really all there is to it.

> > >

> > > One is defined as part of the course. You may play out of it, and if you can’t then it’s relief with a one stroke penalty. Since it is on the course the distance gained counts.

> > > One is off the course. the distance gained is cancelled but the stroke counts. You will have to re hit for another stroke then add one stroke penalty.

> >

> > Again, that is a distinction without a difference. Why should it matter if it is considered "part of the course" or not (and not even getting into the issue of internal OB)? You have a target, you swing, the ball goes wayward, it ends at a place that is irretrievable. One shot gets you one penalty and the exact same other shot gets you two penalties. What does it matter if the landing spot is "part of the course" or not?

>

> If you are wondering what the difference is between part of the course and not part of the course, then I have to wonder about how obtuse this discussion is.

>

> And for the record I can not stand internal OB.

 

You cannot explain, for purposes of fair scoring and fair application of penalties, why a ball that bounces past a white stake is treated differently than a ball that goes into a pond. Being "part of the course" is not a good answer.

[Vindog]

Oh it’s a perfectly good answer, you just don’t like it.

 

Contact your rules association if you need more depth.

[LICC]

> @Vindog said:

> Oh it’s a perfectly good answer, you just don’t like it.

>

> Contact your rules association if you need more depth.

 

It's a meaningless answer. It's ok that you can't explain it. There really is no good reason.

[LICC]

> @davep043 said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > Both the stroke penalty and the distance penalty are 100% logical. Don’t like the definitions? That’s fair but it’s subjective.

> This is it, in a nutshell. OB and PA are two different areas, as defined by the Rules. The Rules need to define specific areas, that's the job of rulemakers, to define specific things and then define how to deal with them. The rulemakers also have to decide the order of the severity of the mistakes when they decide on the severity of the penalty for each of the potential mistakes. To me, hitting it off of the property, missing the entire golf course, is worse than hitting it into a PA that is ON the property. Therefore, the penalty should be greater. Similarly, losing a ball, not knowing where it is even though it is believed to be on dry land, is a pretty big mistake, and deserves to have a pretty severe punishment.

> I looked back at the history of the OB rules at http://ruleshistory.com/lost.html. Out of Bounds was not even defined until the 1880s, prior to that it was apparently just a lost ball. The penalty has varied, most of the time was stroke and distance, occasionally as distance only (replay the shot with no penalty), occasionally the penalty was allowed to be varied by local rule. Obviously the Ruling Bodies have gone back and forth on this over the years.

> I find it interesting when @LICC suggests that the mistake of hitting it off of the golf course is the same level mistake as hitting a PA that might be crossing the fairway, so deserves to have the punishment decreased, then turns around and says that hitting some of these big PAs is a huge mistake and deserves the severe punishment of essentially stroke and distance. Since you see it splash out there, shouldn't you take your stroke penalty and drop it on dry land about even with where the splash was?

>

>

>

I don't think hitting into PA should be a stroke and distance penalty. I never said that. I'm pointing out the inconsistency.

 

Your statement: "To me, hitting it off of the property, missing the entire golf course, is worse than hitting it into a PA that is ON the property."

 

Why? You make it sound like "missing the entire golf course" is some massive horror. Fairways that run next to houses, or along a property line that has no visual distinction other than some white stakes in the ground, can lead to slightly offline shots just barely bouncing a few feet across the white stake. Just as a fairway that is adjacent to a pond can result in a shot slightly offline bouncing into the pond. The same exact error. Same shot. Same distance. Same amount offline. Two different levels of penalties.

[davep043]

> @LICC said:

> Your statement: "To me, hitting it off of the property, missing the entire golf course, is worse than hitting it into a PA that is ON the property."

>

> Why? You make it sound like "missing the entire golf course" is some massive horror. Fairways that run next to houses, or along a property line that has no visual distinction other than some white stakes in the ground, can lead to slightly offline shots just barely bouncing a few feet across the white stake. Just as a fairway that is adjacent to a pond can result in a shot slightly offline bouncing into the pond. The same exact error. Same shot. Same distance. Same amount offline. Two different levels of penalties.

We just won't agree. To me, hitting a ball OB IS a greater "sin" than hitting a ball into the water. You don't have to agree, it won't bother me in the least.

What we have is a difference of opinion, not a failure of logic. What in my opinion are two very different locations become in your opinion two very similar golf shots. To me, the location matters, to you, location is secondary.

 

 

[Vindog]

> @LICC said:

> > @Vindog said:

> > Oh it’s a perfectly good answer, you just don’t like it.

> >

> > Contact your rules association if you need more depth.

>

> It's a meaningless answer. It's ok that you can't explain it. There really is no good reason.

 

I did explain it. Several times. As did others. Your issue is how the areas have been defined by the people who make the game. Since I did not make up the game you will have to take it up with the people who do make up the game.

 

I’m sure they would love to hear from you and get some insight on your analysis, and delivery. Please report back as soon as possible.

 

[LICC]

> @Vindog said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Vindog said:

> > > Oh it’s a perfectly good answer, you just don’t like it.

> > >

> > > Contact your rules association if you need more depth.

> >

> > It's a meaningless answer. It's ok that you can't explain it. There really is no good reason.

>

> I did explain it. Several times. As did others. Your issue is how the areas have been defined by the people who make the game. Since I did not make up the game you will have to take it up with the people who do make up the game.

>

> I’m sure they would love to hear from you and get some insight on your analysis, and delivery. Please report back as soon as possible.

>

 

I don't care how the areas are defined. The definition of areas is irrelevant. My issue is that the same exact swing with the same exact result, with the only difference being one ball is in a patch of grass next to a white stake and the other is on the bottom of a pond, can lead to two different levels of penalty. Neither you nor anyone here has explained how that is logical.

[Newby]

> @LICC said:

>

> I don't care how the areas are defined. The definition of areas is irrelevant. My issue is that the same exact swing with the same exact result, with the only difference being one ball is in a patch of grass next to a white stake and the other is on the bottom of a pond, can lead to two different levels of penalty. Neither you nor anyone here has explained how that is logical.

 

It would make sense if you consider that the player should know that an area to the right of the fairway (say) is marked red or white. If the latter, he should take extra care that he doesn't hit to the right. It is called course management. If a player just blasts the ball without considering the consequences, he deserves what he gets.

[HatsForBats]

> @LICC said:

> > @HatsForBats said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Halebopp said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @Vindog said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Fine, I'll bite.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is IN BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > One is OUT OF BOUNDS

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It really is that simple.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So you have no answer. No idea. Nothing to add. Got it.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > There are consequences in all sports for sending the ball off the playing field. Do you think it's unfair a player loses the point in tennis if s/he hits the ball out of bounds or that you lose possession of the ball if you send the ball off the pitch in football?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Your analogy helps my argument. The player loses one point in tennis (and not even that on the first serve). This rule is like the player would lose two points in tennis for one OB stroke

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No it doesn't, there's a one-stroke penalty, not two. The ball didn't fly OB on its own no matter how much you want to avoid the responsibility for the stroke.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > You chose the club, the swing and the aim and then tried to execute the shot. It was you and only you who sent the ball OB and you're penalized one stroke for such an awful shot.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > Stroke AND distance. That is a two stroke penalty. The new local rule that lets you place the ball on the fairway requires a TWO stroke penalty. You are now hitting 4. Let’s not be distorting the discussion

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > Like you said it is Stroke and Distance, not Two Strokes and Distance.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You hit your tee shot OB but hit the fairway with your second try. You're now lying three on the fairway, not four. You've made two strokes at the ball and have had to add one penalty stroke to your score, not two.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > This is silly. Please stop with this. There is a stroke penalty and a distance penalty. If you hit in the water, you take a one penalty stroke drop at the point it went in. No distance penalty. If you hit it out of bounds, you take a stroke penalty and by re-teeing, you take a distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > If I hit a 200-yard shot into a penalty area but the ball crossed into the PA 5 yards in front of the spot from which I made the stroke, I'm losing 195 yards despite there being no distance penalty. If I skull my 20-yard lob shot 60 yards over the green and OB, I've gained 40 yards with the distance penalty.

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > Please show me this 200 yard PA that starts 5 yards from your shot

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Here are two pictures from my home club from one single hole.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > I can’t make out what that is showing. Where is the tee box?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The white dot in the first picture. Most players lay up their tee shots to around where the white dot is in the second picture because there's long hay and bushes to the right of the fairway and if you miss slightly left (like the line in the first picture), it's atleast a 230-meter carry over the water.

> > > > >

> > > > > The penal aspect of that hole is it's design (bad design). If you hit it in the water, you can hit your next shot from as far as possible as your first shot went over land. Which is fair- you get credit for the distance you hit the ball over the playable area, and you get a one-stroke penalty for the ball ending in an unplayable area. The rest of the penalty is from the hole design, not a bad rule. In more typical situations, with OB, you get no credit for hitting the ball over the playable area and have an effective two-stroke penalty. Illogical.

> > > >

> > > > Both the stroke penalty and the distance penalty are 100% logical. Don’t like the definitions? That’s fair but it’s subjective.

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > You still can't explain why the distance penalty for OB but not for PA is logical.

> >

> > Having played in a league for many years that plays no loss of distance for an OB shot I can say that it changes the dynamics. It happens often enough that some higher handicapper knocks one OB drops near where they went OB and then ends up making a bogey or double bogey for net par which drives me nuts when I make a good par only to tie the hole.

> >

> > If they did change the OB to no loss of distance then I would think every course would need to be re-rated and hole handicaps would need to be restructured. Mostly I have more of a problem with the way some courses are designed with lack of room to safely err to an area with a lot less risk of going OB. I just mostly avoid courses that are poorly designed with respect to OB areas.

>

> Why does it drive you nuts? He gets a stroke on the hole. He hit a bad shot. He dropped where it went OB and gets a penalty stroke for that bad shot. Why should he get two penalties for one bad shot? That was his stroke to get because of his handicap. He then must have played the rest of the hole well to take a 5 for a 4. Does it drive you nuts the same way if he hits it into a pond and then gets a 5 for a 4?

 

It drives me nuts simply because presumably both players post scores for handicap purposes based on it being a 2 stroke penalty and the courses are presumably rated based on that penalty. As I said If they did change the OB to a 1-stroke and no loss of distance penalty then I would think every course would need to be re-rated and hole handicaps would need to be restructured. If the system were already designed for a 1 stroke for OB and the handicap system, hole handicaps and course ratings were based on 1-stroke then I don't think it would drive me as nuts. It would be a pretty significant change IMO.

 

I can't be sure how I would feel about a switch to a 1-stroke penalty for play **and** posting as I have no experience with such a system and I doubt many do. As it stands I take more issue with some courses being poorly designed in MNSHO in relation to the OB areas.