Should Cameron Champ get away from Sean Foley?

[Golf Scientist]

> @"Ignatius Reilly" said:

> I've never heard of guys with a separate coach for that (other than putting), but I'm not that plugged in to who's coaching who for what.

It's extremely common for pro these days to have a full swing instructor (ex: Leadebetter, Harmon, Cowen, Foley, etc) and then have someone else for their short game instructor (ex: Pelz, Stockton, Cleveland, Utly, Sones, Faxon, etc)

 

Last I had heard Champ worked with a guy named John Graham on his short game.

 

Champ had back spasms , and there is no doubt in my mind that it was from that ridiculous twist the hips as fast and as much as possible that Foley told him to do. (Science has shown that high degrees hip rotation and fast rotation of hips doesn't correlate with fast swing speeds. Just ask former world long drive champion Monte in the instruction forum).

Champ was a long hitter long before Foley poached Champ from his former instructor. There is an article somewhere that had one of the people who works/ed for Foley quoting Foley on how he wanted to steal Champ from his former instructor, and wanted Champ for the notoriety of working with a long hitter. If Champ keeps doing the Foley flare folly he may not physically last very long.

[Darth Putter]

Cameron had a very unusual win statistically.

 

 

 

Rory did it twice and Tiger four times.

[dasams]

Wow! That's a crazy short list.

[Outlier]

> @tiderider said:

> > @Bomber_11 said:

> > Foley is a joke. Only way a Foley pupil succeeds is if they succeed in spite of his pathetic teaching principles, not because of them.

> >

> > Cam Champ is a ridiculous talent, if he isn't winning or being competitive w/ his distance and the statistical proof that distance essentially trumps all for scoring average, **it's due to a huge hole in his game.**

> >

> > If I were Cam Champ I'd steer clear and call Claude Harmon, who has seemingly maximized the talent and results for several big hitters...

>

> well, apparently, there IS a huge hole in his game ... it consists of iron play, short game, short iron control & putting ...

 

While nobody is looking, you could now eat that crow in peace.

[Outlier]

> @Shipwreck said:

> > @gioguy21 said:

> > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > Soooo. If champ wins tomorrow who is going to apologize? Or walk back anything they said?

> >

> > not me, i stand by what i said about foley. one win does not a good instructor make - especially if you look at the downturn he had prior to.

>

> It’s like George Gankas (and this is in no way a slight against him or his coaching). Wolfe wins and suddenly GG’s stock goes through the roof and everyone from kids to middle aged investment bankers want that swing, which I feel is a terrible way to teach people.

>

> Everyone has a natural swing that can be fine tuned to get a result. Adam Scott, IMHO, has a picture perfect golf swing that I would kill for, but unless I’m willing to completely undo everything in my swing, it ain’t gonna happen.

 

Didn't Scott famously copy Tiger's Butch swing though?

[Fairway14]

> @Outlier said:

> > @Shipwreck said:

> > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > Soooo. If champ wins tomorrow who is going to apologize? Or walk back anything they said?

> > >

> > > not me, i stand by what i said about foley. one win does not a good instructor make - especially if you look at the downturn he had prior to.

> >

> > It’s like George Gankas (and this is in no way a slight against him or his coaching). Wolfe wins and suddenly GG’s stock goes through the roof and everyone from kids to middle aged investment bankers want that swing, which I feel is a terrible way to teach people.

> >

> > Everyone has a natural swing that can be fine tuned to get a result. Adam Scott, IMHO, has a picture perfect golf swing that I would kill for, but unless I’m willing to completely undo everything in my swing, it ain’t gonna happen.

>

> Didn't Scott famously copy Tiger's Butch swing though?

 

First, Adam Scott has a similar physique to Tiger.

Second, when youngsters both Tiger and Scott built the foundation of their swings using time honored textbook golf fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment).

Third, they each had beautiful and fundamentally sound swings by the time they started working with Butch Harmon (Tiger at about age 15 and Scott at about age 19).

All of the above factors considered, my take is that Harmon's most significant help to both Tiger and Scott was his imparting knowledge to them on subjects such as course management, club selection, handling high pressure situations, effective practice routines etc...

[LICC]

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Outlier said:

> > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > Soooo. If champ wins tomorrow who is going to apologize? Or walk back anything they said?

> > > >

> > > > not me, i stand by what i said about foley. one win does not a good instructor make - especially if you look at the downturn he had prior to.

> > >

> > > It’s like George Gankas (and this is in no way a slight against him or his coaching). Wolfe wins and suddenly GG’s stock goes through the roof and everyone from kids to middle aged investment bankers want that swing, which I feel is a terrible way to teach people.

> > >

> > > Everyone has a natural swing that can be fine tuned to get a result. Adam Scott, IMHO, has a picture perfect golf swing that I would kill for, but unless I’m willing to completely undo everything in my swing, it ain’t gonna happen.

> >

> > Didn't Scott famously copy Tiger's Butch swing though?

>

> First, Adam Scott has a similar physique to Tiger.

> Second, when youngsters both Tiger and Scott built the foundation of their swings using time honored textbook golf fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment).

> Third, they each had beautiful and fundamentally sound swings by the time they started working with Butch Harmon (Tiger at about age 15 and Scott at about age 19).

> All of the above factors considered, my take is that Harmon's most significant help to both Tiger and Scott was his imparting knowledge to them on subjects such as course management, club selection, handling high pressure situations, effective practice routines etc...

 

Not exactly. Tiger made significant swing changes under Butch in 1998.

[Fairway14]

> @LICC said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @Outlier said:

> > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > Soooo. If champ wins tomorrow who is going to apologize? Or walk back anything they said?

> > > > >

> > > > > not me, i stand by what i said about foley. one win does not a good instructor make - especially if you look at the downturn he had prior to.

> > > >

> > > > It’s like George Gankas (and this is in no way a slight against him or his coaching). Wolfe wins and suddenly GG’s stock goes through the roof and everyone from kids to middle aged investment bankers want that swing, which I feel is a terrible way to teach people.

> > > >

> > > > Everyone has a natural swing that can be fine tuned to get a result. Adam Scott, IMHO, has a picture perfect golf swing that I would kill for, but unless I’m willing to completely undo everything in my swing, it ain’t gonna happen.

> > >

> > > Didn't Scott famously copy Tiger's Butch swing though?

> >

> > First, Adam Scott has a similar physique to Tiger.

> > Second, when youngsters both Tiger and Scott built the foundation of their swings using time honored textbook golf fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment).

> > Third, they each had beautiful and fundamentally sound swings by the time they started working with Butch Harmon (Tiger at about age 15 and Scott at about age 19).

> > All of the above factors considered, my take is that Harmon's most significant help to both Tiger and Scott was his imparting knowledge to them on subjects such as course management, club selection, handling high pressure situations, effective practice routines etc...

>

> Not exactly. Tiger made significant swing changes under Butch in 1998.

 

I recall that Tiger in 1996 and 1997 had much the same skinny physique he played with during his junior and college years. 1998 was a year he lifted more weights and gained muscle mass, which naturally would also change the appearance of his swing a bit. By 1999 I think he was more accustomed to his bulked up physique, more comfortable making swings, and he went on to have a tremendous 9 or 10 year run of winning tournaments.

I do remember the 1998 era discussion about Tiger's swing changes, but my perspective then (and now) was that him adding muscle weight to his body were most influential to the change in the plane and length of his swing.

 

 

[Golfjack]

> @dasams said:

> Wow! That's a crazy short list.

 

And a very good list to be on. If their short game is that good, even when their iron game is off they can have a chance at winning. Hope he gets better. Two time winner now of lesser events but not many PGA pro's can say that and he's still very young. I think he should definitely see a new coach and see if they can help his iron game which oddly isn't as good as it could be. Then again, his game really is just based off of his driving right now.

 

[MidwestGolfBum]

> @Golfjack said:

> > @dasams said:

> > Wow! That's a crazy short list.

>

> And a very good list to be on. If their short game is that good, even when their iron game is off they can have a chance at winning. Hope he gets better. Two time winner now of lesser events but not many PGA pro's can say that and he's still very young. I think he should definitely see a new coach and see if they can help his iron game which oddly isn't as good as it could be. Then again, his game really is just based off of his driving right now.

>

>

 

He also has a very low ball flight with the driver compared to most, so there are going to courses that run out may become an issue. Guys like Bubba can get away with it more because of his ability to move the ball to fit the hole, hit into a hill, etc. where Champ doesn't seem to do that, as much. I have hopes that he is able to get his iron play more dialed in and put up some bigger wins in the coming years. There is zero doubt that he has some incredible talent and having an even better iron game will make him that much more of a threat.

[LICC]

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @Outlier said:

> > > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > Soooo. If champ wins tomorrow who is going to apologize? Or walk back anything they said?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > not me, i stand by what i said about foley. one win does not a good instructor make - especially if you look at the downturn he had prior to.

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s like George Gankas (and this is in no way a slight against him or his coaching). Wolfe wins and suddenly GG’s stock goes through the roof and everyone from kids to middle aged investment bankers want that swing, which I feel is a terrible way to teach people.

> > > > >

> > > > > Everyone has a natural swing that can be fine tuned to get a result. Adam Scott, IMHO, has a picture perfect golf swing that I would kill for, but unless I’m willing to completely undo everything in my swing, it ain’t gonna happen.

> > > >

> > > > Didn't Scott famously copy Tiger's Butch swing though?

> > >

> > > First, Adam Scott has a similar physique to Tiger.

> > > Second, when youngsters both Tiger and Scott built the foundation of their swings using time honored textbook golf fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment).

> > > Third, they each had beautiful and fundamentally sound swings by the time they started working with Butch Harmon (Tiger at about age 15 and Scott at about age 19).

> > > All of the above factors considered, my take is that Harmon's most significant help to both Tiger and Scott was his imparting knowledge to them on subjects such as course management, club selection, handling high pressure situations, effective practice routines etc...

> >

> > Not exactly. Tiger made significant swing changes under Butch in 1998.

>

> I recall that Tiger in 1996 and 1997 had much the same skinny physique he played with during his junior and college years. 1998 was a year he lifted more weights and gained muscle mass, which naturally would also change the appearance of his swing a bit. By 1999 I think he was more accustomed to his bulked up physique, more comfortable making swings, and he went on to have a tremendous 9 or 10 year run of winning tournaments.

> I do remember the 1998 era discussion about Tiger's swing changes, but my perspective then (and now) was that him adding muscle weight to his body were most influential to the change in the plane and length of his swing.

>

>

 

No, in 1998, his bulking up had nothing to do with the swing changes he made with Butch.

[musclefront]

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @Outlier said:

> > > > > @Shipwreck said:

> > > > > > @gioguy21 said:

> > > > > > > @QuigleyDU said:

> > > > > > > Soooo. If champ wins tomorrow who is going to apologize? Or walk back anything they said?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > not me, i stand by what i said about foley. one win does not a good instructor make - especially if you look at the downturn he had prior to.

> > > > >

> > > > > It’s like George Gankas (and this is in no way a slight against him or his coaching). Wolfe wins and suddenly GG’s stock goes through the roof and everyone from kids to middle aged investment bankers want that swing, which I feel is a terrible way to teach people.

> > > > >

> > > > > Everyone has a natural swing that can be fine tuned to get a result. Adam Scott, IMHO, has a picture perfect golf swing that I would kill for, but unless I’m willing to completely undo everything in my swing, it ain’t gonna happen.

> > > >

> > > > Didn't Scott famously copy Tiger's Butch swing though?

> > >

> > > First, Adam Scott has a similar physique to Tiger.

> > > Second, when youngsters both Tiger and Scott built the foundation of their swings using time honored textbook golf fundamentals (grip-posture-alignment).

> > > Third, they each had beautiful and fundamentally sound swings by the time they started working with Butch Harmon (Tiger at about age 15 and Scott at about age 19).

> > > All of the above factors considered, my take is that Harmon's most significant help to both Tiger and Scott was his imparting knowledge to them on subjects such as course management, club selection, handling high pressure situations, effective practice routines etc...

> >

> > Not exactly. Tiger made significant swing changes under Butch in 1998.

>

> I recall that Tiger in 1996 and 1997 had much the same skinny physique he played with during his junior and college years. 1998 was a year he lifted more weights and gained muscle mass, which naturally would also change the appearance of his swing a bit. By 1999 I think he was more accustomed to his bulked up physique, more comfortable making swings, and he went on to have a tremendous 9 or 10 year run of winning tournaments.

> I do remember the 1998 era discussion about Tiger's swing changes, but my perspective then (and now) was that him adding muscle weight to his body were most influential to the change in the plane and length of his swing.

>

>

And you’d be wrong in that perspective. It’s a known fact he worked very hard to change his actual swing with butch.

[Frasier Crane]

There's a great video from back in the day on YouTube with Harmon and Woods, and it's clear there were two major changes Harmon made to Woods' swing: 1. Cupped to flat lead wrist to eliminate being "across the line" at the transition, and 2. "arms first" transition to downswing to eliminate firing the hips too quickly, getting stuck, and flipping the hands at impact. It's such a great video, apparently was on the golf channel back in the day. Woods said he lost distance making the changes, but gained a ton of accuracy.

 

As for the topic at hand about Foley... I think people give Foley too much "credit"... my impression of him watching his Charlie Rose interview is that he's more about data analysis and applying it to strategy rather than swing mechanics.

[Kevinnz]

Champ should give GG a call

[grm24]

> @Kevinnz said:

> Champ should give GG a call

 

Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

[Kevinnz]

> @grm24 said:

> > @Kevinnz said:

> > Champ should give GG a call

>

> Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

 

lol you forgot how tiger went down with foley.

its probably the first away trip that wolff has done. hes only 21?

GG is a genius in golf long game. go n watch some of his video and do his move, you should be hitting it a lot better.

[pinhigh27]

> @grm24 said:

> > @Kevinnz said:

> > Champ should give GG a call

>

> Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

 

what a stupid comment.

[grm24]

> @pinhigh27 said:

> > @grm24 said:

> > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > Champ should give GG a call

> >

> > Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

>

> what a stupid comment.

 

It's no more stupid than people saying Champ should leave Foley for whatever reason they find convenient. Especially when the reason is that they hate Foley for some dumbazz reason. Foley has been Champs coach for a long time and has done well with him. Champ seems to have no issue with it. It's as dumb as all the people continually saying Tiger should go back to Butch.

[Kevinnz]

> @grm24 said:

> > @pinhigh27 said:

> > > @grm24 said:

> > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > Champ should give GG a call

> > >

> > > Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

> >

> > what a stupid comment.

>

> It's no more stupid than people saying Champ should leave Foley for whatever reason they find convenient. Especially when the reason is that they hate Foley for some dumbazz reason. Foley has been Champs coach for a long time and has done well with him. Champ seems to have no issue with it. It's as dumb as all the people continually saying Tiger should go back to Butch.

 

Well foley's student just cannot perform consistently. Look at rosie, probably his best performing student, yet consistently having trouble with his long game. The fact that foley cannot fix champs two way misses for almost a year shows it all. Is champ as long as last year? Obviously no.

[grm24]

> @Kevinnz said:

> > @grm24 said:

> > > @pinhigh27 said:

> > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > > Champ should give GG a call

> > > >

> > > > Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

> > >

> > > what a stupid comment.

> >

> > It's no more stupid than people saying Champ should leave Foley for whatever reason they find convenient. Especially when the reason is that they hate Foley for some dumbazz reason. Foley has been Champs coach for a long time and has done well with him. Champ seems to have no issue with it. It's as dumb as all the people continually saying Tiger should go back to Butch.

>

> Well foley's student just cannot perform consistently.

 

Really wake me when a GG student accomplishes as much as Justin Rose has over the years. Is Wolff performing consistently with GG on the PGA Tour? No. Not even close even given the small sample size. So again why should Champ go to GG? Wolff will finish 74th place or worse this week at Jeju to go along with the rest of average finishes outside of 1 hot week on the PGA Tour.

 

 

 

 

[Kevinnz]

> @grm24 said:

> > @Kevinnz said:

> > > @grm24 said:

> > > > @pinhigh27 said:

> > > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > > > Champ should give GG a call

> > > > >

> > > > > Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

> > > >

> > > > what a stupid comment.

> > >

> > > It's no more stupid than people saying Champ should leave Foley for whatever reason they find convenient. Especially when the reason is that they hate Foley for some dumbazz reason. Foley has been Champs coach for a long time and has done well with him. Champ seems to have no issue with it. It's as dumb as all the people continually saying Tiger should go back to Butch.

> >

> > Well foley's student just cannot perform consistently.

>

> Really wake me when a GG student accomplishes as much as Justin Rose has over the years. Is Wolff performing consistently with GG on the PGA Tour? No. Not even close even given the small sample size. So again why should Champ go to GG? Wolff will finish 74th place or worse this week at Jeju to go along with the rest of average finishes outside of 1 hot week on the PGA Tour.

>

>

>

>

>

 

I dunno who rosie was with when he first started but foleys history doesnt go well compared to GG. How long GG has been known to the golf world? GG is doing a damn good job fixing long game swings and bringing out thoroughbreeds. Foley? Hes only got champ and champ isnt really swinging foleys philosophy anyhow. We dont even need to go down to tiger, the only god did everything foley got him to do and we all know how that ended.

Not to mention how many current pros that have seeked input from GG, look at adam scott, hes rotation better through impact now and not missing two ways, long game wise.

Not many know what foley is good at golf swing wise, long game? Short game? Or mentality? Golf apart, is he down to earth like GG? Maybe he is when he has got a pool of juniors coming out from his portfolio.

[pinhigh27]

> @grm24 said:

> > @Kevinnz said:

> > > @grm24 said:

> > > > @pinhigh27 said:

> > > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > > > Champ should give GG a call

> > > > >

> > > > > Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

> > > >

> > > > what a stupid comment.

> > >

> > > It's no more stupid than people saying Champ should leave Foley for whatever reason they find convenient. Especially when the reason is that they hate Foley for some dumbazz reason. Foley has been Champs coach for a long time and has done well with him. Champ seems to have no issue with it. It's as dumb as all the people continually saying Tiger should go back to Butch.

> >

> > Well foley's student just cannot perform consistently.

>

> Really wake me when a GG student accomplishes as much as Justin Rose has over the years. Is Wolff performing consistently with GG on the PGA Tour? No. Not even close even given the small sample size. So again why should Champ go to GG? Wolff will finish 74th place or worse this week at Jeju to go along with the rest of average finishes outside of 1 hot week on the PGA Tour.

>

>

>

>

>

 

average finishes are multiple top 25s and a win when hes been on tour for like 5 minutes. lol you're nuts. justin rose is one of the best players on tour, that's again a pretty stupid comparison.

 

no idea what your bone to pick with GG is.

 

PS looks like they have about the same amount of world ranking points since wolff has been on tour full time

[LICC]

> @grm24 said:

> > @pinhigh27 said:

> > > @grm24 said:

> > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > Champ should give GG a call

> > >

> > > Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

> >

> > what a stupid comment.

>

> It's no more stupid than people saying Champ should leave Foley for whatever reason they find convenient. Especially when the reason is that they hate Foley for some dumbazz reason. Foley has been Champs coach for a long time and has done well with him. Champ seems to have no issue with it. It's as dumb as all the people continually saying Tiger should go back to Butch.

 

Has Champ done well? Or as well as he could be doing?

[MK7Golf21]

> @Kevinnz said:

> > @grm24 said:

> > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > @pinhigh27 said:

> > > > > > @grm24 said:

> > > > > > > @Kevinnz said:

> > > > > > > Champ should give GG a call

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why? So he could be T76 in a 78 player field like Wolff is this week going 73/78/78?

> > > > >

> > > > > what a stupid comment.

> > > >

> > > > It's no more stupid than people saying Champ should leave Foley for whatever reason they find convenient. Especially when the reason is that they hate Foley for some dumbazz reason. Foley has been Champs coach for a long time and has done well with him. Champ seems to have no issue with it. It's as dumb as all the people continually saying Tiger should go back to Butch.

> > >

> > > Well foley's student just cannot perform consistently.

> >

> > Really wake me when a GG student accomplishes as much as Justin Rose has over the years. Is Wolff performing consistently with GG on the PGA Tour? No. Not even close even given the small sample size. So again why should Champ go to GG? Wolff will finish 74th place or worse this week at Jeju to go along with the rest of average finishes outside of 1 hot week on the PGA Tour.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

>

> I dunno who rosie was with when he first started but foleys history doesnt go well compared to GG. How long GG has been known to the golf world? GG is doing a **** good job fixing long game swings and bringing out thoroughbreeds. Foley? Hes only got champ and champ isnt really swinging foleys philosophy anyhow. We dont even need to go down to tiger, the only god did everything foley got him to do and we all know how that ended.

> Not to mention how many current pros that have seeked input from GG, look at adam scott, hes rotation better through impact now and not missing two ways, long game wise.

> Not many know what foley is good at golf swing wise, long game? Short game? Or mentality? Golf apart, is he down to earth like GG? Maybe he is when he has got a pool of juniors coming out from his portfolio.

 

Saying champ should leave Foley is just as stupid as saying he should go to GG, I agree. Wolff came to GG with that talent and swing, basically gave GG the popular swing pattern he teaches.

 

I like GG’s stuff but honestly I don’t care for the changes he made in the pga tour players that went to him, Danny lee, sung kang, Adam Scott, Harrington. They all had exceptional swings before GG and success. He for sure made Scott’s swing worse by a mile. Scott naturally does the opposite of what GG teaches and is one of the best at it. Was the most silly changes I’ve seen on a tour pro of Scott’s pedigree.

[Fairway14]

> @Redjeep83 said:

>

> I like GG’s stuff but honestly I don’t care for the changes he made in the pga tour players that went to him, Danny lee, sung kang, Adam Scott, Harrington. They all had exceptional swings before GG and success. He for sure made Scott’s swing worse by a mile. Scott naturally does the opposite of what GG teaches and is one of the best at it. Was the most silly changes I’ve seen on a tour pro of Scott’s pedigree.

 

I agree with you here. Also, the reality is that tee to green game is rarely the reason Tour players don't win and, or, struggle to earn high finishes. Excellent green side chipping-pitching bunker play and putting is the primary reason guys win tournaments and, or, shoot consistently low scores.

In general I think Tour players would be best served dedicating at least 70% of their taking instruction and practice time to short game work, 20% to mental work including course strategy, club selection, relaxation techniques etc..,

and the remaining 10% to full swing instruction, practice.

 

 

[MK7Golf21]

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Redjeep83 said:

> >

> > I like GG’s stuff but honestly I don’t care for the changes he made in the pga tour players that went to him, Danny lee, sung kang, Adam Scott, Harrington. They all had exceptional swings before GG and success. He for sure made Scott’s swing worse by a mile. Scott naturally does the opposite of what GG teaches and is one of the best at it. Was the most silly changes I’ve seen on a tour pro of Scott’s pedigree.

>

> I agree with you here. Also, the reality is that tee to green game is rarely the reason Tour players don't win and, or, struggle to earn high finishes. Excellent green side chipping-pitching bunker play and putting is the primary reason guys win tournaments and, or, shoot consistently low scores.

> In general I think Tour players would be best served dedicating at least 70% of their taking instruction and practice time to short game work, 20% to mental work including course strategy, club selection, relaxation techniques etc..,

> and the remaining 10% to full swing instruction, practice.

>

>

 

Yea, Scott has always been a great ball striker, he’s back to swinging the same way prior to GG. He is really good around the greens, I saw him in person hit like a 5-10 yard slice pitch, lol, over a mound to land it soft because it was short sided. His weakness has always been putting

 

[Fairway14]

> @Redjeep83 said:

> > @Fairway14 said:

> > > @Redjeep83 said:

> > >

> > > I like GG’s stuff but honestly I don’t care for the changes he made in the pga tour players that went to him, Danny lee, sung kang, Adam Scott, Harrington. They all had exceptional swings before GG and success. He for sure made Scott’s swing worse by a mile. Scott naturally does the opposite of what GG teaches and is one of the best at it. Was the most silly changes I’ve seen on a tour pro of Scott’s pedigree.

> >

> > I agree with you here. Also, the reality is that tee to green game is rarely the reason Tour players don't win and, or, struggle to earn high finishes. Excellent green side chipping-pitching bunker play and putting is the primary reason guys win tournaments and, or, shoot consistently low scores.

> > In general I think Tour players would be best served dedicating at least 70% of their taking instruction and practice time to short game work, 20% to mental work including course strategy, club selection, relaxation techniques etc..,

> > and the remaining 10% to full swing instruction, practice.

> >

> >

>

> Yea, Scott has always been a great ball striker, he’s back to swinging the same way prior to GG. He is really good around the greens, I saw him in person hit like a 5-10 yard slice pitch, lol, over a mound to land it soft because it was short sided. His weakness has always been putting

>

 

Striking range balls for hundreds of hours and, or, working on developing a swing is absolutely necessary for any player trying to get to a zero handicap. But Tour players are way past this level , as they achieved consistent excellent ball striking years before ever earning a Tour card.

I really think that the best instruction a Tour player can seek is one which focuses on course management, club selection, choosing lines of play, relaxation techniques etc.... I know Tiger learned Buddhist meditation techniques as a youngster, and I believe that skill helped him greatly throughout his junior, amateur, collegiate, and pro playing career. Twenty years ago, once Tiger had won so many amateur and pro events, I was expecting the up and coming players to seek out meditation/relaxation instruction, but as far as I know that has not happened.

[gvogel]

Who is Sean Foley again?

[pinhigh27]

> @Fairway14 said:

> > @Redjeep83 said:

> > > @Fairway14 said:

> > > > @Redjeep83 said:

> > > >

> > > > I like GG’s stuff but honestly I don’t care for the changes he made in the pga tour players that went to him, Danny lee, sung kang, Adam Scott, Harrington. They all had exceptional swings before GG and success. He for sure made Scott’s swing worse by a mile. Scott naturally does the opposite of what GG teaches and is one of the best at it. Was the most silly changes I’ve seen on a tour pro of Scott’s pedigree.

> > >

> > > I agree with you here. Also, the reality is that tee to green game is rarely the reason Tour players don't win and, or, struggle to earn high finishes. Excellent green side chipping-pitching bunker play and putting is the primary reason guys win tournaments and, or, shoot consistently low scores.

> > > In general I think Tour players would be best served dedicating at least 70% of their taking instruction and practice time to short game work, 20% to mental work including course strategy, club selection, relaxation techniques etc..,

> > > and the remaining 10% to full swing instruction, practice.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Yea, Scott has always been a great ball striker, he’s back to swinging the same way prior to GG. He is really good around the greens, I saw him in person hit like a 5-10 yard slice pitch, lol, over a mound to land it soft because it was short sided. His weakness has always been putting

> >

>

> Striking range balls for hundreds of hours and, or, working on developing a swing is absolutely necessary for any player trying to get to a zero handicap. But Tour players are way past this level , as they achieved consistent excellent ball striking years before ever earning a Tour card.

> I really think that the best instruction a Tour player can seek is one which focuses on course management, club selection, choosing lines of play, relaxation techniques etc.... I know Tiger learned Buddhist meditation techniques as a youngster, and I believe that skill helped him greatly throughout his junior, amateur, collegiate, and pro playing career. Twenty years ago, once Tiger had won so many amateur and pro events, I was expecting the up and coming players to seek out meditation/relaxation instruction, but as far as I know that has not happened.

 

 

Not sure if trolling. Ball striking is absolutely the most important thing in tour. Top 10 ball striker and average putting makes you rich. Average stroking and top 10 putting makes you fight to keep card.

 

Short game is the least important thing statistically for a tour pro. Ball striking is #1 then putting then bunker play and the stuff you were talking about. There are numerous stats to support this

[b2bbirdies]

I get some of the Sean Foley hate but dude got Justin Rose swinging right. That should count for something