Eye opening video on the lead arm - pro vs am - AMG video

[Nard_S]

Really good clip. Eye opener on lead arm position (always thought the 40* was 'correct') but found face check point just as interesting.

[Hawkeye77]

> @MonteScheinblum said:

> Low and slow is a killer. I needed them to make this video 10 years ago, could have saved me a lot of arguments. ?

 

LOL, just would have allowed for more on other subjects!!

[Hawkeye77]

> @GungHoGolf said:

> Great video, but it contradicts one of their earlier videos:

>

>

 

 

Not at all. You should probably watch them again.

[eddie33081]

Interesting. I definitely need more shoulder turn.

[kowalgolf]

Doesn't Monte's Plane and release by feel verify the 18 degree adduction angle of the left arm?

 

[Fort Worth Pro]

> @Golfbeat said:

> I did not realize that the difference between pros and ams was this big. The lead arm discussion starts in the video at around 8:35

>

>

 

Love the AMG guys but this video has me wondering about a few things. This was posted in a golf instructors Facebook group and there are some questions on the validity of the data from GEARS here. Very respected instructor posted some amm data that was almost the opposite of this. Waiting to hear what explanation we might get.

 

 

[oikos1]

> @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > @Golfbeat said:

> > I did not realize that the difference between pros and ams was this big. The lead arm discussion starts in the video at around 8:35

> >

> >

>

> Love the AMG guys but this video has me wondering about a few things. This was posted in a golf instructors Facebook group and there are some questions on the validity of the data from GEARS here. Very respected instructor posted some amm data that was almost the opposite of this. Waiting to hear what explanation we might get.

>

>

 

Are you able to post the data that is almost the opposite of this?

[Fort Worth Pro]

> @oikos1 said:

> > @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > > @Golfbeat said:

> > > I did not realize that the difference between pros and ams was this big. The lead arm discussion starts in the video at around 8:35

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Love the AMG guys but this video has me wondering about a few things. This was posted in a golf instructors Facebook group and there are some questions on the validity of the data from GEARS here. Very respected instructor posted some amm data that was almost the opposite of this. Waiting to hear what explanation we might get.

> >

> >

>

> Are you able to post the data that is almost the opposite of this?

 

Not sure but I will just tell you. It showed the lead arm adducted 30 degrees at p6 on a tour driver swing and the instructor said he tends to see more abduction in amateurs. Said the delta from the top was the same (about 20 degrees) but that the actual measurement was about 50 degrees different and that usually that indicates that two different things are being measured.

 

 

[Golfbeat]

> @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > @Golfbeat said:

> > I did not realize that the difference between pros and ams was this big. The lead arm discussion starts in the video at around 8:35

> >

> >

>

> Love the AMG guys but this video has me wondering about a few things. This was posted in a golf instructors Facebook group and there are some questions on the validity of the data from GEARS here. Very respected instructor posted some amm data that was almost the opposite of this. Waiting to hear what explanation we might get.

>

>

Mind telling us who the respected instructor is?

 

 

[JD3]

So much for that "one plane swing" nonsense

[Fort Worth Pro]

> @Golfbeat said:

> > @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > > @Golfbeat said:

> > > I did not realize that the difference between pros and ams was this big. The lead arm discussion starts in the video at around 8:35

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Love the AMG guys but this video has me wondering about a few things. This was posted in a golf instructors Facebook group and there are some questions on the validity of the data from GEARS here. Very respected instructor posted some amm data that was almost the opposite of this. Waiting to hear what explanation we might get.

> >

> >

> Mind telling us who the respected instructor is?

>

>

 

Tyler Ferrell

 

 

[fjk]

> @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > @oikos1 said:

> > > @"Fort Worth Pro" said:

> > > > @Golfbeat said:

> > > > I did not realize that the difference between pros and ams was this big. The lead arm discussion starts in the video at around 8:35

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > > Love the AMG guys but this video has me wondering about a few things. This was posted in a golf instructors Facebook group and there are some questions on the validity of the data from GEARS here. Very respected instructor posted some amm data that was almost the opposite of this. Waiting to hear what explanation we might get.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Are you able to post the data that is almost the opposite of this?

>

> Not sure but I will just tell you. It showed the lead arm adducted 30 degrees at p6 on a tour driver swing and the instructor said he tends to see more abduction in amateurs. Said the delta from the top was the same (about 20 degrees) but that the actual measurement was about 50 degrees different and that usually that indicates that two different things are being measured.

>

>

 

Really appreciate you chiming in! Please keep us updated on the resolution.

[GungHoGolf]

> @Hawkeye77 said:

> > @GungHoGolf said:

> > Great video, but it contradicts one of their earlier videos:

> >

> >

>

>

> Not at all. You should probably watch them again.

 

Okay, took your advice and watched both videos again. Here are my notes:

 

**AMG VIDEO 1: Golf Swing Myth Keeping Your Arms in Front**

Referring to pro swing: “The left arm is pinned a little bit towards his chest.” “On the downswing, you’re going to see in high level players that angle holds for a minute, it doesn’t come out right away.” Pro swing screen shot, showing a Lead Arm Adduction angle of at least 45 deg:


 

**AMG VIDEO 2: [PROS vs. AMS] | Create LAG In Your Golf Swing**

Pros “reduce lead arm adduction angle” compared to amateurs, “arm depth is created by turn”, “arm moves off chest [quickly] coming down.” Not ANY mention of lead arm being pinned towards the chest (except in regards to amateurs), or any mention of holding that LAA angle coming down. The entire thesis is that, compared to ams, pros keep their arms more in front of their chest on the backswing, and immediately start moving the lead arm off the chest from the top. Screen shot showing Pro on left and Am on right:


[airjammer]

Amg seems just find a hot trend in golf instruction and then go put up video of one of Hamilton’s students that do the exact opposite.

[Golfbeat]

@ Gungho - did they say that the angle is at least 45 or is that your conclusion? Does not seem 45 on the screen shot.

[Soloman1]

I'm not sure if a sweeping conclusion can be made. Let's remember that GEARS calculates angles. Algorithms and measurement parameters can differ based on player's body shape. My angles are drawn directly from the sensors and if there's one thing I know about adduction angles, it's that the actual angle is not important, but the relative change from transition. I would never draw a universal conclusion, because there are too many tour and elite players with very little in common when it comes to lead arm adduction. I'll post some tour and elite swings to illustrate when I get time.

[glk]

*> @GungHoGolf said:

> > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > @GungHoGolf said:

> > > Great video, but it contradicts one of their earlier videos:

> > >

> > >

> >

> >

> > Not at all. You should probably watch them again.

>

> Okay, took your advice and watched both videos again. Here are my notes:

>

> **AMG VIDEO 1: Golf Swing Myth Keeping Your Arms in Front**

> Referring to pro swing: “The left arm is pinned a little bit towards his chest.” “On the downswing, you’re going to see in high level players that angle holds for a minute, it doesn’t come out right away.” Pro swing screen shot, showing a Lead Arm Adduction angle of at least 45 deg:

> 

>

> **AMG VIDEO 2: [PROS vs. AMS] | Create LAG In Your Golf Swing**

> Pros “reduce lead arm adduction angle” compared to amateurs, “arm depth is created by turn”, “arm moves off chest [quickly] coming down.” Not ANY mention of lead arm being pinned towards the chest (except in regards to amateurs), or any mention of holding that LAA angle coming down. The entire thesis is that, compared to ams, pros keep their arms more in front of their chest on the backswing, and immediately start moving the lead arm off the chest from the top. Screen shot showing Pro on left and Am on right:

> 

 

These videos are discussing two different things. First video only talks about angle between arm and spine with no numbers mentioned. Second video talks about arm adduction angle from starting point and shows at the top arm angle with shaft not spine ( the small insert ). Don’t see how one can say they contradict cause they are showing different things. And most likely not the same golfer - AMG talks about variability in people with where their lead arms start and how much they adduct.

[Fort Worth Pro]

> @Soloman1 said:

> I'm not sure if a sweeping conclusion can be made. Let's remember that GEARS calculates angles. Algorithms and measurement parameters can differ based on player's body shape. My angles are drawn directly from the sensors and if there's one thing I know about adduction angles, it's that the actual angle is not important, but the relative change from transition. I would never draw a universal conclusion, because there are too many tour and elite players with very little in common when it comes to lead arm adduction. I'll post some tour and elite swings to illustrate when I get time.

 

Think that’s why Tyler said he thought they were probably measuring differently for their to be that big a discrepancy in the numbers (even though the delta was similar) and was questioning how and what was measuring as opposed to making a blanket “that’s not correct” statement.

 

 

[Fort Worth Pro]

As was guessed...the two systems are measuring and reporting data differently. Kind of a murky subject and I’m not sure I think that’s the best way to look at the data but once again...the delta/movement is more important than the absolute number.

[Golfbeat]

I think that the take away from the video is that many amateurs are pulling the arms too much behind them which causes 2 main problems:

 

1. They need too much time to get the arms back in front which leads to sequencing and timing issues (flipping etc)

2. Because the arms are so much behind them they will have issues creating a more neutral swing path. This can lead to an overly inside or outside swing path.

[Nard_S]

> @Golfbeat said:

> I think that the take away from the video is that many amateurs are pulling the arms too much behind them which causes 2 main problems:

>

> 1. They need too much time to get the arms back in front which leads to sequencing and timing issues (flipping etc)

> 2. Because the arms are so much behind them they will have issues creating a more neutral swing path. This can lead to an overly inside or outside swing path.

 

I spent some extended range time on this yesterday and what I gleaned was that when I done arm lift, it basically was always perpendicular to the ground. But if the hands go parallel to spine angle it counteracts too much behind tendency. Takes some getting used to, swing can feel steep (especially without concise shoulder rotation) but results say otherwise. Aside from grooving altered move, path control became a lot easier and it simplified transition/timing issues. Pull hook misses w/ irons & hard pushes with metals vaporized.

[airjammer]

> @Golfbeat said:

> I think that the take away from the video is that many amateurs are pulling the arms too much behind them which causes 2 main problems:

>

> 1. They need too much time to get the arms back in front which leads to sequencing and timing issues (flipping etc)

> 2. Because the arms are so much behind them they will have issues creating a more neutral swing path. This can lead to an overly inside or outside swing path.

 

The problem is that most ams don’t get their hands deep enough at the top of the backswing and most of the time if they do it’s accompanied with a flat shoulder turn.

 

The truth is that getting your hand deep enough with a acceptable amount of left side bend requires a lot more flexibility than most people have.

[CP_Circa62]

So, on the downswing should the feel be more one of the arms moving down and across the body?

[jut111]

> @airjammer said:

> > @Golfbeat said:

> > I think that the take away from the video is that many amateurs are pulling the arms too much behind them which causes 2 main problems:

> >

> > 1. They need too much time to get the arms back in front which leads to sequencing and timing issues (flipping etc)

> > 2. Because the arms are so much behind them they will have issues creating a more neutral swing path. This can lead to an overly inside or outside swing path.

>

> The problem is that most ams don’t get their hands deep enough at the top of the backswing and most of the time if they do it’s accompanied with a flat shoulder turn.

>

> The truth is that getting your hand deep enough with a acceptable amount of left side bend requires a lot more flexibility than most people have.

 

Agree totally with your first sentence. Disagree with the 2nd. It's not so much flexibility as it is a different movement pattern and using/activating the correct muscles.

[Mono]

so if anyone remembers the amg left arm video pro's vs am's' these videos seem related - that one basically says pros only bend their trail arm (right for righties) 90* and am's is closer to 120*, theoretically when you only bend the trail arm 90* the other arm would be less across the chest

 

when i focus on only bending my right arm 90* in the back swing i feel like i tend to hit it solid, my only issue when i do this is finding the time for my 10 other swing thoughts before I hit it, maybe i should slow it down?

[sprcoop]

I worked on this over the weekend and had an interesting result. I am a habitual goat humper flipper/ 68 ballerina guy. Never had forward shaft lean with full speed swing no matter what I tried.

 

Concentrating on moving my lead arm off my chest early had my lead hand nearly on my trail thigh with the club parallel (not the 12 inches away like normal) and some shaft lean at impact. Not only that, my trail foot/knee moved towards the target, not the ball so zero ballerina move.

 

Ball flight was lower and push/slice greatly reduced. Pulled some shots but with such a radical change in impact position I'm not surprised. Still takes a lot of thought and feels weird. I need to find a drill (tried and failed) to get this ingrained.

 

Any suggestions on a drill?

[Simpsonia]

So my little anecdote/aha moment after watching this video was less about arm abduction than hip/shoulder turn in the backswing. I'm a tall lanky guy with pretty good flexibility. At a recent lesson, the pro saw that I was extremely narrow at the top of my backswing, and going way too long (past parallel with short irons). His lesson was to work on keeping the arms as wide as possible. While working on maintaining width with my backyard net, I was playing around with swing thoughts. The thought that did it for me was essentially having the idea that someone was trying to pull the club out of my hands at P3. How am I strong enough to resist this when my arms are trapped against the body? I need to get my torso turned more with my arms straighter ahead of it. Then I remembered this this video and tried to maximize turning my torso, which required a deeper hip turn. This also then brought back memories of Jim Waldron's Arm Swing Illusion, and things just kinda started clicking from there.

Turns out I never had a full shoulder/hip turn in the backswing simply because my arms didn't require it to get back, even if it was necessary for a good swing. Now that I have a proper turn in the backswing, I have a much shorter backswing, it has all but eliminated the rampant reverse pivot I had, and my ball striking has drastically improved.

[GungHoGolf]

> @Simpsonia said:

> So my little anecdote/aha moment after watching this video was less about arm abduction than hip/shoulder turn in the backswing. I'm a tall lanky guy with pretty good flexibility. At a recent lesson, the pro saw that I was extremely narrow at the top of my backswing, and going way too long (past parallel with short irons). His lesson was to work on keeping the arms as wide as possible. While working on maintaining width with my backyard net, I was playing around with swing thoughts. The thought that did it for me was essentially having the idea that someone was trying to pull the club out of my hands at P3. How am I strong enough to resist this when my arms are trapped against the body? I need to get my torso turned more with my arms straighter ahead of it. Then I remembered this this video and tried to maximize turning my torso, which required a deeper hip turn. This also then brought back memories of Jim Waldron's Arm Swing Illusion, and things just kinda started clicking from there.

> Turns out I never had a full shoulder/hip turn in the backswing simply because my arms didn't require it to get back, even if it was necessary for a good swing. Now that I have a proper turn in the backswing, I have a much shorter backswing, it has all but eliminated the rampant reverse pivot I had, and my ball striking has drastically improved.

 

You'll probably find some value in this thread, as well: https://forums.golfwrx.com/discussion/791161/get-your-arm-swing-and-pivot-in-sync/p1

[Hawkeye77]

> @glk said:

> *> @GungHoGolf said:

> > > @Hawkeye77 said:

> > > > @GungHoGolf said:

> > > > Great video, but it contradicts one of their earlier videos:

> > > >

> > > >

> > >

> > >

> > > Not at all. You should probably watch them again.

> >

> > Okay, took your advice and watched both videos again. Here are my notes:

> >

> > **AMG VIDEO 1: Golf Swing Myth Keeping Your Arms in Front**

> > Referring to pro swing: “The left arm is pinned a little bit towards his chest.” “On the downswing, you’re going to see in high level players that angle holds for a minute, it doesn’t come out right away.” Pro swing screen shot, showing a Lead Arm Adduction angle of at least 45 deg:

> > 

> >

> > **AMG VIDEO 2: [PROS vs. AMS] | Create LAG In Your Golf Swing**

> > Pros “reduce lead arm adduction angle” compared to amateurs, “arm depth is created by turn”, “arm moves off chest [quickly] coming down.” Not ANY mention of lead arm being pinned towards the chest (except in regards to amateurs), or any mention of holding that LAA angle coming down. The entire thesis is that, compared to ams, pros keep their arms more in front of their chest on the backswing, and immediately start moving the lead arm off the chest from the top. Screen shot showing Pro on left and Am on right:

> > 

>

> These videos are discussing two different things. First video only talks about angle between arm and spine with no numbers mentioned. Second video talks about arm adduction angle from starting point and shows at the top arm angle with shaft not spine ( the small insert ). Don’t see how one can say they contradict cause they are showing different things. And most likely not the same golfer - AMG talks about variability in people with where their lead arms start and how much they adduct.

 

Exactly.

[Golf Scientist]

There is a Mcilroy overhead slow motion video (some of you may remember) from the 2016 Ryder Cup that is probably a better reference for how much movement the arms actually make with reference to torso movement and how much the arm pins in an efficient swing compared to whoever amg's model(s) was.