SLDR vs cobra LTD spin

[Afor1991]

If shafts were the same, which driver would have less spin? Any other drivers in the last 5 years that would have less?

[Booker]

I own both heads , the 430 sldr and 460 spin less than the ltd pro. Also look at m1 430 and the biocell pro head.

[Valtiel]

This is actually an interesting one because of how different these drivers are, but the answer is that it would wholly depend on strike.

 

The SLDR derives its extremely low spin characteristics from having a very low MOI by modern standards. This means that the vertical gear effects that govern spin are much more pronounced with extreme spin reduction on high strikes and increase on low strikes. When strike properly (high), the SLDR will spin less but at the expense of both the spin increase on low strikes and the increase in axis tilt (slice/hook) on heel and toe strikes respectively.

 

The Cobra LTD on the other hand derives its low spin characteristics from its extremely low CG. This means that a "high" strike is easier to achieve on average, and because the MOI is on the higher side of above average, it will be more stable in terms of spin increase and axis tilt on low and heel/toe strikes respectively at the expense of having less spin reduction on higher strikes.

 

Overall, the Cobra would be the better fit in terms of forgiveness and spin characteristics for a wider range of people, but the SLDR would win regarding pure spin reduction but only under its particular circumstances. The industry has also been very much moving towards the Cobra model of spin reduction/stabilization through higher MOI as a result, although its exceptionally low CG has yet to be replicated in a higher MOI driver.

[Ivyguy]

> @Valtiel said:

> This is actually an interesting one because of how different these drivers are, but the answer is that it would wholly depend on strike.

>

> The SLDR derives its extremely low spin characteristics from having a very low MOI by modern standards. This means that the vertical gear effects that govern spin are much more pronounced with extreme spin reduction on high strikes and increase on low strikes. When strike properly (high), the SLDR will spin less but at the expense of both the spin increase on low strikes and the increase in axis tilt (slice/hook) on heel and toe strikes respectively.

>

> The Cobra LTD on the other hand derives its low spin characteristics from its extremely low CG. This means that a "high" strike is easier to achieve on average, and because the MOI is on the higher side of above average, it will be more stable in terms of spin increase and axis tilt on low and heel/toe strikes respectively.

>

> Overall, the Cobra would be the better fit in terms of forgiveness and spin characteristics for a wider range of people, but the SLDR would win regarding pure spin reduction but only under its particular circumstances. The industry has also been very much moving towards the Cobra model of spin reduction/stabilization through higher MOI as a result, although its exceptionally low CG has yet to be replicated in a higher MOI driver.

 

Holy shnikeys Batman. That was awesome.

 

Although, I now feel as though I know of this planet.

[Afor1991]

> @Valtiel said:

> This is actually an interesting one because of how different these drivers are, but the answer is that it would wholly depend on strike.

>

> The SLDR derives its extremely low spin characteristics from having a very low MOI by modern standards. This means that the vertical gear effects that govern spin are much more pronounced with extreme spin reduction on high strikes and increase on low strikes. When strike properly (high), the SLDR will spin less but at the expense of both the spin increase on low strikes and the increase in axis tilt (slice/hook) on heel and toe strikes respectively.

>

> The Cobra LTD on the other hand derives its low spin characteristics from its extremely low CG. This means that a "high" strike is easier to achieve on average, and because the MOI is on the higher side of above average, it will be more stable in terms of spin increase and axis tilt on low and heel/toe strikes respectively at the expense of having less spin reduction on higher strikes.

>

> Overall, the Cobra would be the better fit in terms of forgiveness and spin characteristics for a wider range of people, but the SLDR would win regarding pure spin reduction but only under its particular circumstances. The industry has also been very much moving towards the Cobra model of spin reduction/stabilization through higher MOI as a result, although its exceptionally low CG has yet to be replicated in a higher MOI driver.

 

Wow. what an answer. I really appreciate that. I wish i had numbers for you guys but unfortunately did not record them at my most recent LM. Regardless of changes in swing dynamics i consistently hit a spin rate of around 3500-4000 with a swing speed around 105-110 mph, currently playing a callaway rogue with an Aldila Rogue Max 75 Graphite xstiff shaft. When we talk about "forgiveness", do we mean accuracy or ability to have good strike if not hit center?

[Z1ggy16]

> @Afor1991 said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > This is actually an interesting one because of how different these drivers are, but the answer is that it would wholly depend on strike.

> >

> > The SLDR derives its extremely low spin characteristics from having a very low MOI by modern standards. This means that the vertical gear effects that govern spin are much more pronounced with extreme spin reduction on high strikes and increase on low strikes. When strike properly (high), the SLDR will spin less but at the expense of both the spin increase on low strikes and the increase in axis tilt (slice/hook) on heel and toe strikes respectively.

> >

> > The Cobra LTD on the other hand derives its low spin characteristics from its extremely low CG. This means that a "high" strike is easier to achieve on average, and because the MOI is on the higher side of above average, it will be more stable in terms of spin increase and axis tilt on low and heel/toe strikes respectively at the expense of having less spin reduction on higher strikes.

> >

> > Overall, the Cobra would be the better fit in terms of forgiveness and spin characteristics for a wider range of people, but the SLDR would win regarding pure spin reduction but only under its particular circumstances. The industry has also been very much moving towards the Cobra model of spin reduction/stabilization through higher MOI as a result, although its exceptionally low CG has yet to be replicated in a higher MOI driver.

>

> Wow. what an answer. I really appreciate that. I wish i had numbers for you guys but unfortunately did not record them at my most recent LM. Regardless of changes in swing dynamics i consistently hit a spin rate of around 3500-4000 with a swing speed around 105-110 mph, currently playing a callaway rogue with an Aldila Rogue Max 75 Graphite xstiff shaft. When we talk about "forgiveness", do we mean accuracy or ability to have good strike if not hit center?

 

Stop what you're doing and change courses for a sec. Moving to a low spin head is not likely going to help you... spinning the ball that much at that speed is almost certainly a technique issue. My somewhat educated guess is that you have a negative AoA coupled with a wee bit of a flip/scoop which tends to also come with an open club face. To get 4k spin on a driver you really need a pretty decent spin loft which with your run of the mill 9 or 10.5* head almost always means a downward strike and high dynamic loft. Strike is also going to have a massive impact on spin. However... the #1 issue above all else: Are you hitting the center of the club face or low heel? Because no driver in the world is going to lower spin while being struck low heel.

 

Look how much strike affects my spin rates from my most recent fitting:

 

Literally double the spin from low heel vs high toe.

[Afor1991]

> @Z1ggy16 said:

> > @Afor1991 said:

> > > @Valtiel said:

> > > This is actually an interesting one because of how different these drivers are, but the answer is that it would wholly depend on strike.

> > >

> > > The SLDR derives its extremely low spin characteristics from having a very low MOI by modern standards. This means that the vertical gear effects that govern spin are much more pronounced with extreme spin reduction on high strikes and increase on low strikes. When strike properly (high), the SLDR will spin less but at the expense of both the spin increase on low strikes and the increase in axis tilt (slice/hook) on heel and toe strikes respectively.

> > >

> > > The Cobra LTD on the other hand derives its low spin characteristics from its extremely low CG. This means that a "high" strike is easier to achieve on average, and because the MOI is on the higher side of above average, it will be more stable in terms of spin increase and axis tilt on low and heel/toe strikes respectively at the expense of having less spin reduction on higher strikes.

> > >

> > > Overall, the Cobra would be the better fit in terms of forgiveness and spin characteristics for a wider range of people, but the SLDR would win regarding pure spin reduction but only under its particular circumstances. The industry has also been very much moving towards the Cobra model of spin reduction/stabilization through higher MOI as a result, although its exceptionally low CG has yet to be replicated in a higher MOI driver.

> >

> > Wow. what an answer. I really appreciate that. I wish i had numbers for you guys but unfortunately did not record them at my most recent LM. Regardless of changes in swing dynamics i consistently hit a spin rate of around 3500-4000 with a swing speed around 105-110 mph, currently playing a callaway rogue with an Aldila Rogue Max 75 Graphite xstiff shaft. When we talk about "forgiveness", do we mean accuracy or ability to have good strike if not hit center?

>

> Stop what you're doing and change courses for a sec. Moving to a low spin head is not likely going to help you... spinning the ball that much at that speed is almost certainly a technique issue. My somewhat educated guess is that you have a negative AoA coupled with a wee bit of a flip/scoop which tends to also come with an open club face. To get 4k spin on a driver you really need a pretty decent spin loft which with your run of the mill 9 or 10.5* head almost always means a downward strike and high dynamic loft. Strike is also going to have a massive impact on spin. However... the #1 issue above all else: Are you hitting the center of the club face or low heel? Because no driver in the world is going to lower spin while being struck low heel.

>

> Look how much strike affects my spin rates from my most recent fitting:

>

>

> Literally double the spin from low heel vs high toe.

 

Agree with that, its more likely to be a technical issue but I was thinking i would have some improvement moving away from my current drivers. Currently in the process of getting my swing sorted out. I wish i had an AoA for you guys but i just didnt take note of it. I would say the majority of my strikes are close to center but misses are near the heel. Appreciate your responses guys!

[Z1ggy16]

Standard Rogue is not overly high spin I don't think. It's certainly not a low spin bullet design but it doesn't warrant 4k spin on center strikes @ 105mph either. AoA isn't super-duper critical but it can contribute because it can increase that spin loft number all else equal. Strike here is king though and if you're making contact in the middle of the face and still seeing really high spin, then maybe you've got a lemon of a head in that Rogue or you need to check your technique for some flipping.

 

Are you using Trackman to see these spin numbers? If you're going to like PGATSS or similar box store I wouldn't trust those numbers too much.

 

[indianalawnguy]

> @Booker said:

> I own both heads , the 430 sldr and 460 spin less than the ltd pro. Also look at m1 430 and the biocell pro head.

 

Good call on the Bio Cell Pro! One of the lowest spinning driver heads i have ever hit. Better hit it solid or it will fall out of the sky like a medicine ball!

[Howard_Jones]

> @Afor1991 said:

> > @Valtiel said:

> > This is actually an interesting one because of how different these drivers are, but the answer is that it would wholly depend on strike.

> >

> > The SLDR derives its extremely low spin characteristics from having a very low MOI by modern standards. This means that the vertical gear effects that govern spin are much more pronounced with extreme spin reduction on high strikes and increase on low strikes. When strike properly (high), the SLDR will spin less but at the expense of both the spin increase on low strikes and the increase in axis tilt (slice/hook) on heel and toe strikes respectively.

> >

> > The Cobra LTD on the other hand derives its low spin characteristics from its extremely low CG. This means that a "high" strike is easier to achieve on average, and because the MOI is on the higher side of above average, it will be more stable in terms of spin increase and axis tilt on low and heel/toe strikes respectively at the expense of having less spin reduction on higher strikes.

> >

> > Overall, the Cobra would be the better fit in terms of forgiveness and spin characteristics for a wider range of people, but the SLDR would win regarding pure spin reduction but only under its particular circumstances. The industry has also been very much moving towards the Cobra model of spin reduction/stabilization through higher MOI as a result, although its exceptionally low CG has yet to be replicated in a higher MOI driver.

>

> Wow. what an answer. I really appreciate that. I wish i had numbers for you guys but unfortunately did not record them at my most recent LM. Regardless of changes in swing dynamics i consistently hit a spin rate of around 3500-4000 with a swing speed around 105-110 mph, currently playing a callaway rogue with an Aldila Rogue Max 75 Graphite xstiff shaft. When we talk about "forgiveness", do we mean accuracy or ability to have good strike if not hit center?

 

For short YES, a low MOI head will twist more at impact on outside of center hits, so gear effects becomes stronger, so will the tilt of the spin axis who pulls the ball left or right. Your spin levels is a strong indicator of impact LOW on the face, so start by tracking impact, and try to raise it above the center line.

 

Here is where VCOG is located on SLDR, its very low compared to most other heads on the marked.

 

Impact above VCOG will eat spin (the head twist back at impact), while impact below add spin. Its the same for all head, but the amount of twisting is due to MOI or the distance from impact an back to RCOG who is very short on SLDR

 

Prevent impact below VCOG, that will add tons of spin, and is most likely why you have those spin numbers. Gear effects from head twisting overrules all other parameters big time, so if you look closely on those photo, you will see that "dead center" on this head is still below its VCOG = adds unwanted spin, since the head will twist forward at impact.

 

Imagine a rod and momentum. if we add a certain amount of force on a short rod vs a long, momentum changes. On a driver a long RCOG = long rod, so it takes more power to twist the head up or down. Thats how SLDR can cut of more spin than others with its short rod or short RCOG numbers, but you pay back big time if you miss the center of the face heel to toe, or impact becomes to low on the face.

 

Like Valtiel, i advocate heads with a low VCOG but still long RCOG numbers. The low VCOG gives more "effective face area" above VCOG to cut of spin, while the long RCOG prevent to much twisting on hits to the heel or toe side.

 

This slow motion video shows head twisting at impact in all direction depending on where we make impact, and both VCOG and RCOG is part of it, so is shaft properties.

 

[otw]

Howard do you know if a list exists showing location of VCOG on driver heads?

[Howard_Jones]

> @otw said:

> Howard do you know if a list exists showing location of VCOG on driver heads?

 

https://mygolfspy.com/2019-driver-center-of-gravity-and-moi-report/

[Howard_Jones]

WRX is censoring links to other Golf tech pages.....SILLY...

 

Search for " Golf, Center of gravity and moi report"

[fore_life]

> @indianalawnguy said:

> > @Booker said:

> > I own both heads , the 430 sldr and 460 spin less than the ltd pro. Also look at m1 430 and the biocell pro head.

>

> Good call on the Bio Cell Pro! One of the lowest spinning driver heads i have ever hit. Better hit it solid or it will fall out of the sky like a medicine ball!

 

I’ve got a biocell pro head still, that thing is a MONSTER but I’ve switched to the 400lst,

[MrFlapjack]

Howard, how much of the high spin number is related to impact location on the face vs angle of attack. Was trying to tell a buddy that AOA doesnt affect spin nearly as much as strike location.

[Howard_Jones]

> @MrFlapjack said:

> Howard, how much of the high spin number is related to impact location on the face vs angle of attack. Was trying to tell a buddy that AOA doesnt affect spin nearly as much as strike location.

 

I have never been able to see AOA as a parameter for spin on drivers at all, we need LAB and Robot conditions to isolate it, so IMO, AOA simply dont matter, neither do Spin loft, the term Trackman has invented and use.

 

Ive posted a compare of 2 players lots of times, with huge differences to club specs and delivery, but nobody would be able to judge right for who generates the most spin, and the reason i found is, Gear effects overrules absolutely all other parameters BIG TIME. Both players in the low 90 mpg club speed (about 90 - 92) and a smash factor of 1.5

 

Player 1

7.5* static loft, Dynamic loft 16.6*, - AOA plus 3.7*, Spin loft 13.9* - Spin 2559 rpms

 

Player 2

13* static loft, Dynamic loft 17.4* - AOA minus 0.2*, Spin loft 17.6* - Spin 1843 rpms

 

Player 2 makes impact a few 8s higher on the face, he has a more "tip soft" shaft model with higher TQ = vertical gear effects eats spin with a crazy appetite and overrule all other parameters so much they dont count at all.