New World Handicap System

[nsxguy]

How do you guys suppose this new system will affect the Club Secretaries ?

For example, I played the longest time with a club at a public course (USA). We had a club secretary. The secretary's principal job was taking care of entering the scores for handicaps.

Since we had a twice a month revision schedule and everyone was using the same handicap until the next revision it really didn't matter when the secretary entered the scores into GHIN so long as they entered the date correctly AND it was prior to the next revision.

Now, with the new WHS, the scores will have to be entered after each round BEFORE the next day's play. And to make matters worse I wonder if they'll "bother" to input the scores hole-by-hole. I expect if given the choice, they won't. LOL

To make matters worse, in 2019 they could print out the upcoming handicap sheet for the next club date at any time before that day (so long as a revision didn't fall in between) but now they will have to wait until the night before, or even the morning of, the next game day to print them out as they may change the day before the next club date.

I wonder if the secretaries will want their compensation "bumped" ? LOL

 

Have you guys addressed this with your club's officers ?

[Shilgy]

Per the WHS seminar I attended here in Phoenix that question came up. The Low index will start being a piece of the calculation on January 1 2020. It WILL NOT go back over the 2019 indexes.

[reidsou]

I emailed the USGA about this. They said that everyone who has 20 scores on January 1st will be assigned their first Low Handicap Index, which will be equal to their first published Index under WHS. They are not going to go back in time.

Similarly, they will not process existing pre-WHS scores for Exceptional Score Reduction (ESR).

[Sawgrass]

Committees don’t have to use daily-updated handicaps in their multi-day tournaments. And they don’t have to enter players’ scores if they don’t wish to.

[reidsou]

Emailed the USGA and called WA Golf, confirmed this is what will be new on Jan. 6th when Washington state members receive their first WHS index revision:

Handicap Index will be the average of the best 8 of 20 differentials instead of the best 10 times 0.96. (Or if they have less than 20 scores, see the WHS rules. This is the one everyone knows about already.)If the player's index was at the maximum index it will likely increase, sometimes significantly. The new maximum is 54.0.Tournament score (T-score) records will be deleted. Existing scores designated with "T" will be designated with "C" (Competition). Existing "C" scores will be designated "N" (Nine hole combined.)Tournament score reduced indexes will no longer exist. Any existing "R" indexes will likely increase because the deduction will be dropped. Players with 20 scores will receive an initial Low Handicap Index equal to their first WHS revision Index.

[James the Hogan Fan]

For my country (FIN) the golf union has announced the 19th of February. I assume it's country by country. The Finn association reports Denmark Jan 1, and Iceland and Sweden Mar 1 for switching.

At present the individual clubs were in charge of keeping the calculations; it was said that a new national eservice would be starting up for WHS

[Newby]

Thanks. I have been told that the present competition management software will still be used for score entry and competition management but handicap processing will be done by one (or more?) centralised system.

A New Zealand company Dotgolf.nz was mentioned. They provide the NZ software at present.

 

[James the Hogan Fan]

From what I read you are correct. With my Finnish albeit rather poor, it appears the clubs will continue to process/record score information as they have been, but the scores will be sent to a single national GHIN-esque service 'ebirdies'? for HC calculations.

Upon closer reading, Norway is reported to be switching some time at the end of 2020, that rounds out the Nordics.

[Halebopp]

Quite right, but the date for Denmark is Jan 1, 2021. :) It's interesting that majority of Finnish clubs use a Danish product for tee time booking, tournament and tour management, handicaps and whatnot and the Danes themselves are pushing back their date to ensure everything works once they do move over. They're probably pleased to get the live testing done with other golf unions. :)

 

And yes, you're right, the handicapping will be moved to the eBirdie system. With all the data going to the central system, the golf union should be able to access and provide clubs with more data and reports than what was available from the current systems.

[Newby]

It seems as if there is to be more than one 'central' Handicapping system software provider. Presumably 'above' them there will be only one central database of handicap (and score) records.

I wonder if eBirdie, Dotgolf (and presumably a GHIN rewrite) et al, will also store the full database. ISVs like ClubV1 (widely used by EGA and CONGU) will have to have access to the handicaps of visiting overseas players entering local competitions.

[bladehunter]

Yes and no. Our imputers ( made up word ) is me and one other. We aren’t compensated. And only handle event scores. So not a huge deal. But it will throw an element of haste into getting those scores uploaded ASAP.

 

 

[bladehunter]

When you say T scores will be deleted. Do you mean designation changed. Or the score wiped off completely ? Half of my scores currently are T scores. I haven’t been able to play much since the events of summer. And for a several week stretch I played only T rounds. And several a week.

[DaveLeeNC]

T Scores are part of your regular handicap record. There is a separate T Score Counter and Best T Score file that will naturally go away with this change. Your T scores should remain as part of your handicap record (but no longer be part of a T Score Counter or T Score file).

 

dave

[reidsou]

All scores will be retained. The current handicap system tracks a separate list of T-scores. That separate list will be deleted. In Washington state the scores designated as tournament ("T") will be changed to designation competition ("C").

See the current handicapping manual section 10-3c.

[Newby]

Don't the players themselves enter their scores? If not, why not?

I thought that is what GHIN is for. Are there no other entry systems over there?

Edit:

Just noticed you said 'event scores' so understand your point. I assume you are concerned about the PCC timing. I wouldn't get excited as I believe it will have very little effect on a player's index.

[mark m]

Thanks - very helpful. I listed 4 things earlier in this thread (post #658). Here are the first 3:

 

Will T scores be converted to C scores? Answer is yes.Will there be a C score listing in the GHIN app (similar to the T score listing we have now)? I hope so!How will the S (for stroke play) and M (for match play) designations work? Will it simply be a choice for the player when entering a score? And will we have a choice to double designate? Example would be "SC" (or CS) = which would identify the score as a stroke play competition? (Years ago we had a double designation with "AI" scores = away internet)Another question regarding "C" score designation: Will this also be a choice for a player? (Similar to 'T' score choice now?) Or will this be a special designation only provided by a Committee using Golf Genius Tournament Management software? We shall see how they define a competition and what they recommend and promote.

I believe these designations are very important for the Handicap Committee and for Peer Review. In the early 2000's I used to post my interclub fourball match play scores as 'T' scores because they met the definition in the USGA handicap system manual. I stopped doing that 10 years ago because I changed my mind. (This forum played a part in that change.) All the 'T' scores in my current record have been posted by Committees - whether by a golf club or by an Association.

Here in the US, we unfortunately have significant problems with sandbagging and vanity handicapping. It's hard to put a firm percentages on these things because some clubs and cultures are much better than others. If strong controls were put in place regarding formats and best policies for C scores - they could perhaps identify - in the numbers over time - players who score much different in comps versus regular rounds. This could really help to address and fix issues. The numbers would be less good if players are allowed to choose the designation on their own. For starters, most non-competitive round scores in the US are not attested and clearly many are not played by the rules.

If they allow players to choose the 'C' score designation - depending on that definition - almost every round I post could perhaps be designated as a C score. 90+% of my non-tournament rounds are competitive stroke play rounds played by the RoG. My group of about 12-30 has a throw-in $$ to a prize pool and low net score is part of the pay outs.

I guess we will find out shortly. Thanks again.

[Newby]

As CONGU (and I guess EGA) already distinguish between competition and individual play scores, I expect that the WHS will also have that facility.

See update below.

[Newby]

Appendix B has the following.

**If required, score type designation(s) should be determined by the Authorized Association and can be used to help identify the format of play, where a round was played and other details about the round. This is primarily to assist with the Handicap Committee review process but can also ensure that the Rules of Handicapping are applied correctly. Examples of how scores might be designated include:

Type of Play: Competition; General play;

9-hole round (N) Format of Play:Stroke play; Match play

Where round was played: Home; Away

Other details: Incomplete round; Exceptional score; Penalty score

 

[mark m]

Yes. Thank you. I believe I was the first to post about the designations in Appendix B. My questions are specific. It sounds like the answers could be different for us in the USGA system depending on the Association(?) Just curious what some of the guys here are finding out in the meetings they are attending.

[Newby]

I omitted to mark the C in Committee

[Shilgy]

Two things come to mind....this event score entry is another good reason to use Golf Genius. One button and the field’s scores are entered-with proper esc reductions.

 

How do you play multiple tournaments per week? Or is your club over using the T score? Not all club events are T score worthy.

[bladehunter]

Didn’t say multiples a week. Several events are multi day.

And I had a several week stretch with events each week. ( USGA mid am qualifier , state am qualifier , state mid am qualifier , county Am 3 day , club champ 2 day , and several single day local events. If I had qualified for either events I’d have had more.

 

And if qualifiers don’t count then it’s on the committees. They posted the scores for me .

 

Then started some house remodeling and and as of today haven’t seen the course in 2 1/2 weeks. but as I’ve said before. I have a practice range at home. So I hit balls every day I can. Like most people workout. I hit a 50 ball bucket before work , at lunch and if I can before dark. I enjoy practice. I’d practice putting more if I didn’t hate it so much. Lol. But that’s a Segway we don’t want to take.

[nsxguy]

Here is the current definition/explanation of Tournament scores. I would think the new one wouldn't be much different.https://www.usga.org/handicapping/handicap-manual.html#!rule-14370

The Committee in charge of the competition must announce in advance whether the score is to be designated as a Tournament Score. Not all club competitions qualify to be posted as Tournament Scores. For example, club events that are routine events such as daily, weekly, or monthly play days should NOT be designated as Tournament Scores.

 

Examples of scores made at the club level that should be designated as Tournament Scores include club championships (stroke play or match play) and member-guest competitions. Examples at the regional and state level include qualifying and championship rounds conducted by Authorized Golf Associations. Also, qualifying and championship rounds conducted for national competitions should be designated as Tournament Scores.

[nsxguy]

So that's a "No" then ?

[Shilgy]

So based on his schedule he’s fine. They all seem to be legit T scores. I asked because many clubs overdo the T score routine as you noted.

 

 

[reidsou]

Tournament scores are used in the current handicap system for possible automatic handicap reduction for Exceptional Tournament Scores. See section 10-3 of the current rules of handicapping.

In the WHS this will no longer be the case. The designation of scores is only for Committee review. (There will still be a possible automatic handicap reduction for ESR, but this is independent of score designation.)

The old definition of Tournament could be a point of comparison, but I don't think it is very relevant to WHS. And the word "tournament" is not found anywhere in the 2020 Rules of Handicapping.

[Newby]

T scores were a phenomenon of the USGA system only. They don't feature in the WHS.

[nsxguy]

Understood and agreed. I was just giving him the current text.Understood. As you say, "The designation of scores is only for Committee review". So there is a use for the new "C"(?) designation (else why have it in the first place)But as its own association they MAY decide to do something with "C" scores, no ?

Can't find it right now but I believe I read just recently that the USGA will have designations for some(?) rounds, including, but not limited to the "T" scores becoming "C" scores.

I'm thinking they wouldn't have done that for no reason.

Thank you.

 

[DaveLeeNC]

FWIW, what defined (in the US) a "T Score" was much more limited in scope that the competition scores that were posted in (for example) the UK. Specifically 'regular weekly club events' in the US were NOT T scores (no matter how well organized) while (as I understand things) these were kind of a staple posted 'competitive' score in the UK.

It will be interesting to see how 'C Scores' in the US evolves.

dave

[mark m]

Also very interested in the definition and policy recommendations for 'C' scores. For instance, what if they recommend C scores must be from individual stroke play or individual stableford rounds only? Depending on how they define it and what they recommend, it may be necessary for a Handicap Committee to track the various formats and scores from a club's competitions. My bottom line is I hope the new system will make the difficult volunteer job of serving on a HC easier over time.

Look at the Appendix D (page 96) - Handicap Reviewhttps://www.usga.org/content/dam/usga/pdf/Handicap/Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf

Comparison of average Score Differentials between competitive and casual rounds.

Comparison of average Score Differentials in match play versus stroke play formats of play.

Comparison of average Score Differentials in individual versus team formats of play.

Many posters have come on here and say their club does not have a Handicap Committee. They say their pro does everything. I cannot imagine a scenario where a pro is conducting reviews on his own. One wonders if the new system will be ignored at some clubs?