New World Handicap System

[Augster]

I believe C scores will be posted anytime there is a “real committee” running a competition. That is, any men’s club event or qualifier. Local, regular day play won’t get a C score.

And it’s not like it really matters. A player’s cap will be the same whether he has 20 C scores or zero. The C designation is simply for committee and peer review. A player could post all C scores every time to hide what he does in actual competitions. Then a committee would have to look at scores by date and course.

Though if is committee saw a player was misusing the C score designation, I’m sure they have the power to delete those scores. Just like any other bogus score that comes to their attention.

[bladehunter]

Never understood that about our system.

 

If your club has a weekly Saturday comp , ran by committee, and scored by committee , it’s not a legal T score. But apparently if they schedule these events yearly and vary days ( as in Monday Wednesday Saturday , Monday Wednesday Saturday ) one event a month it’s a legal T score ? The infrastructure and competition is the same. What’s the logic here ?

[DaveLeeNC]

It was explained to me that a T Score was meant to represent a "special event" where winning would be 'special' and thus would bring on pressure not present in weekly (for example) events. The integrity of the scoring was not part of the equation as it was explained to me, although that was not stated explicitly.

dave

[davep043]

The reason is clear in the Handicap Manual, if too many rounds are designated as T Scores, the statistically-derived evaluation of T scores won't work as designed. Too many T Scores dilutes the system.

[bladehunter]

Gotcha. That does at least make sense for distinction. Although I’m not at all sure I feel any different pressure from a USga event to a club comp. I want to win them all ! Lol. And Maybe it helps that I play against some stiff competition weekly , same players I’d be trying to qualify against for other larger events. All feels like the same hat to me.

[SNIPERBBB]

Many golfers would love to have that feel. it should be easy to build, especially if you've played on decent sports teams growing up

 

Of course, when you're taking Molly's and gimmes 90% of your rounds it's hard to build that mindset.

[mark m]

Hi Blade,

Take a look at the 'T' score counter table in Section 10-3. (Before it goes away in 3 weeks!) Handicap ManualIMO a good number for a club is probably around 8 T scores per season. But many players, like you, around scratch, who play in gross score based tournaments outside of their club (city, regional, state/association, USGA) often have scoring records with about 90%+ T scores. They rarely post a non-tournament round. They just don't care and like to use it as a qualifying device and to track their performance. Some of these dudes have played 90 rounds and just 10 or so are posted. Some really good players do follow the system. Particularly those players who have also been in leadership positions at their club. Those guys understand you have to lead by example and post all acceptable scores.

[ThinkingPlus]

These days I thought we were supposed to feel "special" if we just showed up to play. ;-)

[nsxguy]

I posted it for you a few days ago. Post 803.

[bladehunter]

Well.

 

I do post all acceptable scores. But. I don’t get to play as much as some . Not during these short days. In the summer I get a lot of rounds in from 4pm to dark.

Another weekend went by this week with no round. And it was 60 and sunny Saturday. Just too much going on. Now it’s rain 7 of next 10 days. I’ll be looking at a month with no rounds , and I’m in a year round golf climate. If I weren’t lucky enough to be able to hit balls at home/work everyday . I wouldn’t play the game . Serious as can be

 

[Mr. Bean]

Today I participated in a 5-hour lecture of the WHS for Finland. Sounded simple enough for me as Finland has chosen certain options that help it to be easy, such as declaring a round to be a handicap round instead of all rounds to be handicap rounds, which makes life so much easier. We have had that in EGA system for some decades so it is nothing new for us. Also we have a minimum of 9 holes which also simplifies things.

I did not read any of the stuff written on these 28 pages so I cannot say what was dealt with and what was not but I repeat my words by saying this system is as simple as the national bodies have chosen to make it. Too bad if USGA has chosen the more difficult route.

[davep043]

Yesterday I attended a similar presentation, done by my state golf association under the USGA banner. I didn't find any surprises either, after keeping up with the news over the past couple of years, both here and on other forums. For those of us in the USGA regions, the biggest change will be the new maximum hole scores. Its not complicated to me, but I can see how it will confuse some people at first. However, all score entry portals will allow hole-by-hole entry, and actual scores will be adjusted as appropriate to Net Double Bogey maximum. Like with many changes, I think the adaptation will prove to be much simpler than many people fear.

[nsxguy]

Do you use GHIN ?
GHIN is the only system I've ever used and I never signed up. I only pull up the GHIN site and enter my latest round, Gross score, ESC adjusted. As you know, if you do use GHIN, the site itself has the vast majority of the golf courses in each state in their database with course rating, slope for the tee set played from.
Anyway, I created a username & PW and logged on just to see the 18 hole-by-hole template they use as @HatsForBats once mentioned here on WRX.
Apparently, in its current configuration, for the 2 courses I looked at, everything is blank and it appears the user must set up each and every course he uses. I would presume it's be 1 time only and from that point on, it'll be there when he next plays that course. I sure hope so anyway since if the user has to enter all that data every time I guarantee very few golfers are going through that trouble and club secretaries, who have to enter goodness knows how many scores weekly sure ain't gonna want to do it. LOL
Anyway initially, it's all blank. and everything has to be filled in by the user - see below
I've said, along with some others, that the biggest change would be getting golfers to use the hole-by-hole and have the system calculate the NBD adjusted score - and they will simply enter a NDB adjusted gross score just as they have for years and years with ESC.
Has your association mentioned whether or not everything will be pre-loaded by the association for ALL courses. Will they be using a common database (along WITH/same as GHIN ?) to autofill everything ? Or will the user have to initially fill in all the info for each course he plays ?
[img]https://s3.amazonaws.com/golfwrxforums/uploads/671/TVP0ODARLOHJ.png[/img]

[Newby]

Surely that is score template for the current system. WHS hasn't arrived yet.

[Mr. Bean]

That is because you guys still live in the stone age ;-) We have been able to enter our rounds electronically for years for all the courses in our country (and in 40 000 others around the world) so there is no need to start from the blank. I guess this GHIN is more or less the same. Furthermore the program used calculates the WHS handicap for the player after each round (to be precise during the following night) using the data stored for that particular course (CR, SR, par) and for the day in question (PCC).

Also the GameBook has been linked to this system so one can use GB to enter the scores and the data will be distributed to the calculation program used (eg. GolfBox). Extremely simple to use as GameBook has tens of thousands of courses available worldwide. Those missing can be entered into the system by the players.

[bladehunter]

Hmmm I’ve never seen that either. And I’ve used GHIN for 5 years. I just use the app. And I’ve never seen hole by hole option there.

[Hawkeye77]

Damn, 28 pages.

 

Just got a notice the other day from the Iowa Golf Association about the changeover and the, yikes, "dark period" of a few days in January (don't leave the house) while some things transition.

 

At least they don't make it sound scary . . . . .

 

 

[davep043]

To answer a few questions without quoting the entire posts:
"Has your association mentioned whether or not everything will be pre-loaded by the association for ALL courses. Will they be using a common database (along WITH/same as GHIN ?) to autofill everything ? Or will the user have to initially fill in all the info for each course he plays ?"
@nsxguy , At the VSGA seminar on Tuesday, they said that each club has been asked to email copies of the scorecards. Par and Handicap Allocation will be entered for each tee for each course, so it will be pre-populated when we enter scores hole by hole.
"Hmmm I’ve never seen that either. And I’ve used GHIN for 5 years. I just use the app. And I’ve never seen hole by hole option there."@bladehunter , to get that you have to use the website, and the eGolfer feature. You can also use that to track a bunch of statistics, but I've never used it. Apparently the app will offer a lot of that statistical data collection in the new year, along with the full website. Your entire scoring history will remain, back to the beginning of GHIN in 2009 (I think it was), but your handicap history will be erased. If you want to keep that, you may want to have your handicap committee save a report for you before the New Year.

[bladehunter]

Don’t feel bad. I still have yet to be notified in any way. If I weren’t on here , I’d have no idea a changeover wad coming. And Im on our handicap committee. I have no idea how notifications are coming. Or to whom.

[sui generis]

Is your club not a member of the Carolinas Golf Association? Mine is and the golf professional and handicap committee members have been trained and kept up to speed by CGA.

[bladehunter]

As far as I know they still are.

 

Id bet the pro gets the emails, and doesnt share or trashes them. I wish I were making it up. But I’ve not heard a peep. Which is why I said earlier that it’s going to be a real crap show for next year’s committee. It’s time to vote now and I’m not going to accept the nomination this time. ( if it comes ). I’ll just try to stay in my bubble this year and work toward qualifying for the state am and the mid am. They can have the net business. Nobody wants it fixed anyway. We saw that this past year.

 

Ps. The pro is in my normal group , my next door neighbor , and I was texting him as I read your response. And he hasn’t mentioned it. Ever. Lol. I’ll bting it up Saturday just to gauge the situation

[CaseyC]

"...Id bet the pro gets the emails, and doesnt share or trashes them..."

 

Have you asked the pro?

[nsxguy]

Dave, Do you know if your association's system will require the user to enter hole-by-hole or is that an option (I'm guessing (and hoping) it's the latter LOL) ? Sure glad to hear that the template will be pre-populated. LOL Wonder if all the member clubs will send it such a card ?

Blade, Don't know about the phone but on a desktop one must "Sign in" to get to the 18 hole-by-hole template. The GHIN site is indicating that this option, egolfer, is going away. I expect the new GHIN update will look a fair bit different.
From GHIN - "Following the launch, eGolfer will no longer be supported, but similar functionality will be made available on the mobile app and GHIN.com."
@Newby Yes, that is the current GHIN page.

[davep043]

The Director of Handicapping for the Virginia State Golf Association said that hole by hole would be an option in the new version of GHIN, not a requirement. I really don't know if other Associations or individual clubs can make it a requirement. Based on the wording in the new Handicap Rules (hole by hole score entry is "strongly recommended") , I won't be at all surprised if it is the primary option, so that you'll have to navigate around to enter a simple corrected gross score. I know I'll be recommending that our entire membership use hole-by-hole entry, especially if they have any questions about the Net Double max hole score. Whether all golf clubs will bother to send in a scorecard, I have no idea. I'd expect most of them to do so, but who knows. I know I'll be double-checking the data for my home course as soon as I can, there are bound to be a few data entry errors.
And as you say when responding to @bladehunter , we were told that the new GHIN would incorporate the statistical functions now found only in the eGolfer, and I believe they'll be available through the app as well as through the website.

[DaveLeeNC]

Dave, thanks for the very useful information. I guess this answers (in the short term) a couple of questions that I had. I wondered if the rating groups would take over hole handicap allocations (they have pretty good data with which to do that). Sounds like the answer is no.

And if they are going to be using the scorecards to get par assignments then, for every golf course that I have ever played, there will be no par changes between various tees (other than occasionally between Men and Ladies tee designations).

dave

[davep043]

Handicap Index determination is still, per the Rules of Golf (not the Handicap Rules), the responsibility of the Committee. The new Rules do present new recommendations for indexing the holes, based on the Scratch and Bogey ratings which form the basis of the Course Rating System, along with some guidelines about distributing the low and high numbers somewhat evenly through the holes. This data is available right now, and the Association will provide it on request.

Similarly, par is determined by t individual clubs. The Rules suggest that, in additional to being based on yardages, par should also be based on the way a hole is designed to play. I don't expect a lot of changes there. I do expect that when clubs are getting ready to order new scorecards they might consider re-allocating handicap stroke indices based on the new recommendations.

[DaveLeeNC]

This was over 10 years ago.... But back then when we were redoing the hole handicaps on all of our courses, I had suggested that if we just used the scratch and bogey ratings for each hole from the rating groups that this then could be done in virtually no time at all. That was not a popular suggestion among the other committee members and I was told (maybe just to get me to shut up about it) that by hole handicaps were not available to us. It is good to see that this has changed.

dave

ps. An interesting analysis would be to see how much hole handicaps would change between tees using the hole scratch and bogey ratings.

[davep043]

This is a complete departure from the current recommendations, which try to determine where the scoring difference is greatest between lower handicap and higher handicap players. The current (old) recommendations make sense if you're trying to equalize results in match play, allocate the strokes where they'll produce the most halved holes, essentially even the playing field as much as possible. However, now that handicap calculations will be influenced, in the form of the Net Double, it makes more sense to base the handicap ranking on difficulty, and the Course Rating data is a reasonable way of doing that.

[bladehunter]

No. But. I’d assume if he told anyone it would be his handicap committee, ie .... me and 4 others. We have a group text that is ongoing. Not a peep.

[CaseyC]

If you don't ask, you don't get. There is a saying about "if you assume you make an......"