New World Handicap System

[DaveLeeNC]

IMHO, it is a good way to do hole handicaps for either methodology. If you are doing match play then the bogey rating is the proxy for the 'high handicap group' and the scratch rating the proxy for the low handicap group. But as I said I didn't get very far with that one :-)

dave

[rogolf]

What's this about "his" handicap Committee? While a staff member may be on the Handicap Committee, they cannot be the chair of that Committee, so it's not "his". Who chairs that Committee at your club?

[bladehunter]

Read please.

 

I said that if I hadn’t found it here I wouldn’t have known that the system was Changing. You don’t know to ask if youI don’t know it’s changing.

 

So ive known about it for merely months. I’m sure it’s been announced for over a year at least ? Maybe 2.

asking now , 3 weeks before implementation, would be akin to a bandaid being put on a bloody stump after amputation. Pointless. I’d much rather just wait and watch the show. Maybe it will be a big enough deal that they will change their ways ? Who knows.

[bladehunter]

Lol. Yep. I know the rule. But “ they “ won’t abide by it. It’s always been the pro after he sees which way the wind blows with the GM. The committee so I found out is simply a dog and pony show. A toothless lion. We roared about , only to be told no at every turn. Zero access from committee to info coming in and to post scores / adjust etc to police play. All goes through the proshop.

[sui generis]

Many of us have seen the same at other places. Though CGA has some leverage, unless things are terribly broken, I'd be hesitant to get them involved.

[reidsou]

How was the committee chosen? By the pro shop?

Are the rules of golf enforced in tournaments? Is there any problem with sandbagging?

[bladehunter]

By member nomination then member vote , rules of golf are used . exception being tee stroke differential until this year. I did get that changed so that the front tee players didn’t get the tee and 3 shots extra, which they had for 20 plus years. Sandbaggers? lol. Yes. Plenty. Although we did lose two of the biggest this past year .

 

anyway. Just going to be fun watching whatever happens here. The pro may well reap what he’s sewn. As in if you want to be the boss. Now show us how.

[bladehunter]

Agree. I came close to calling in a couple times . But thought better of it. More than likely just end up backfiring on me. As in doubt the CGA would do anything above a “ recommendation to follow the rules “.

[sui generis]

Though I don't have first hand experience, CGA, if they suspected an egregious violation of handicapping rules, could withdraw a club's GHIN support. The poster, mark m, seems the most well versed and may weigh in.

[nsxguy]

Yup, stone age for sure.But I think you mean That is because you guys still live in the stone age ;-) We have been able to enter our rounds electronically for years for all the courses in our country (and in 40 000 others around the world) so there is no need to start from the blank. I guess this GHIN is more or less the same. Furthermore the program used calculates the WHS current handicap for the player after each round (to be precise during the following night) using the data stored for that particular course (CR, SR, par) and for the day in question (PCC).

But I think the prevailing wisdom(?) is that USA golfers are far more "casual" about the game than the UK golfers. Even those belonging to clubs. Most casual golfers, even those that keep a handicap, aren't all that concerned with the ROG; certainly not when it comes to dotting the i's and crossing the t's.

And I'm not sure but it seems most of the UK golfers are the serious types who belong to clubs who are very particular about those "i's and t's". While there are many formal clubs in the USA I wonder just how many there are that aren't quite so formal. I know the club I belonged to, one of several at a municipal course, while we did our best to play by the ROG, wasn't all that concerned about it.

Anywho, as for GHIN, I mentioned Hats because he knew about the hole-by-hole scores for quite some time now so apparently it HAS been available for quite a while - I just never knew about it. I personally only used GHIN to enter my scores without even logging in. Turns out one couldn't see the HBH template without logging in. I only created a log in the other day and saw the template. I certainly would NOT have bothered using it though.

I expect GHIN will look somewhat different in a few weeks. BTW, turns out GHIN does show a "trending" hdcp index,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but only when one logs in.

[davep043]

@nsxguy says
"I expect GHIN will look somewhat different in a few weeks. BTW, turns out GHIN does show a "trending" hdcp index,,,,,,,,,,,,,, but only when one logs in."
Yes, on January 6 all of us GHIN users will be able to download a new version of GHIN, which apparently be very different from the current version. You'll need the new version to enter scores moving forward. Your entire scoring history, as far back as you've been using GHIN, will remain in the database, but your Handicap Index history will be gone, be sure to record that somehow if you want to save it. All of your eGolfer data and statistics will be gone. I believe the "trend" handicap will go away, handicaps will be updated overnight. I believe you'll see today's handicap all day, even if you've entered one or more score's for today's play the Index shown won't update until tomorrow.

[nsxguy]

May I assume by "download" you're referring to the smartphone app ?

The ghin.com page(s) will still be up and working, no ?

[davep043]

Yes, I should have been clearer. The GHIN app for phones will need to be updated, as will any state association apps that facilitate posting scores to GHIN. The computers in pro shops, and the GHIN.com website will all be down from Jan 1 to Jan 5 during the transition. From what I learned at the seminar on Tuesday, the interface for each of these options will look different, but they expect that it will be pretty easy to figure out. We didn't see any previews, so now its just a waiting game.

[Warrior42111]

My apologies if this was covered before, I didn't see it in the last few pages. Will apps such as the grint convert and/or use the new handicap method?

[nsxguy]

They'll have to if you want a correct handicap,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, who would want an app that didn't work properly ?

[davep043]

I agree, the internet-based clubs will have to use the same calculation methods if they want to produce a valid handicap. However, I'm not sure how they'll determine the PCC, whether they'll link somehow to the State or Regional Association's records, or use only the scores posted into their own database. The new Handicap Rules aren't quite so clear as the old ones on the issue of internet-based clubs, so we may see some additional information coming from either the USGA or from authorized state or regional Associations. The USGA may simply use the old rules for defining and licensing golf clubs to use the handicap system within its jurisdiction.

If we have someone who uses one of these services, it might be informative if you asked those questions of your handicap provider, and let us know the answers.

[nsxguy]

Actually that's a great point - the PCC.

I expect the associations will have the software to calculate the averages/scores for the day for a given club's players, but what about days a member isn't playing with their club ? e.g. I play with a few friends from the neighborhood. I post my score - then what ?

I am also no longer a member of my club up north. Haven't played there in 6 years. But I pay them the fee every year and ask them to maintain my membership in their club to keep my handicap and I post the rounds myself. How can a system determine a PCC for that ?

I'd suggested once before that perhaps the course would be tasked with posting some sort of condition assessment on days with unusual weather. Of course then they'd have to pay attention to it all day to make a determination. Morning may be perfect and afternoon the weather might be terrible,,,,,,,,,, or vice versa,,,,,,,,

I believe someone said CONGU has been doing this sort of modification for a long time but again, the UK seems to play a lot more formal club events than we do here in the States.

Oh well. Guess we'll see.

 

[rogolf]

It's all about the scores posted by players at that course on that day. Nobody is expected to enter anything about weather conditions. And weather isn't the only thing considered - it's playing conditions, weather, hole locations, tee locations etc. Australia and others have been using these adjustments for a few years, ie, it's not untried.

[bladehunter]

How does that work ? Tee and hole location for example. What metric is used to quantify it ? Curious as I’d like to know for each pin at my course. Would help with course strategy from the fairway if it was a plotted number system . A lot of my approaches are semi blind. As in can’t see the green surface. So hard to know exactly where pin is. I’d love to KNOW where it is before the shot.

 

Yes i realize pin sheets for most courses give this. Ours doesn’t offer this service . I believe they use the pin the tail on the donkey system. Seems to be just random .

[sui generis]

It's either, Google has pre-positioned sensors all over all of the golf courses in the world plus in the underpants of all golfers and will feed the info to GHIN.

Or, perhaps, when abnormal course or weather conditions cause scores to be unusually high or low on a given day, the Playing Conditions Calculation (PCC) will adjust Score Differentials to better reflect a player’s actual performance. The “PCC” is an automatic procedure by the computation service that compares the scores submitted on the day against expected scoring patterns. It is conservative in nature and applied in integer values (a range of -1 to +3). Also, it is applied in the Score Differential calculation of all players – even those who submit their score(s) on a later date.

[nsxguy]

So could you or ROGOLF give some kind of example ?

Example 1 - 100 golfers play that day. I shoot 77, roughly say a 5.4 diff. The other 99 golfers are high handicappers and the average score that day is, say 94.

Example 2 - 100 golfers again, I shoot 77, roughly a 5.4 diff, only this time my club has 40 guys playing, all of whom shoot between 72 and 79. The other 60 players average, say, 94.

And RO mentioned "playing conditions, weather, hole locations, tee locations " Can you give me an idea of how the PCC might work ?

Also, who decides whether the hole location s are easy or difficult ? Who collects all the scores ? From both my club and all the players who have no relationship with my club, or no relationship with the course for that matter ?

TIA

[ThinkingPlus]

I do not know how PCC will really be calculated, however, I know how I would do it. Basically for every course under normal conditions when the course is playing to the rating and slope, for every golfer per their handicap index there is an expected score (this score can be predicted based on the statistics of the handicap system). If 100 scores were posted on a certain day and those scores exceeded the expected scores for each golfer by an average of 1.2 strokes then the course was playing roughly 1 stroke harder and all differentials for that day would be adjusted accordingly. All very simple. ;-)

[sui generis]

ThinkingPlus has done the thinking for you, plus she's outlined it splendidly.

[nsxguy]

So you're saying she's correct ? She said she didn't know.

[nsxguy]

Hmmmmm,,,,,,,, Well, since a golfer plays to his handicap roughly 1 out of 5 rounds, of those 100 players,, only about 20 would play to their 'cap. Experience tells me that when a player isn't having a particularly good day his score tends to go up rather quickly. So wouldn't that/those scores skew the average ? So how do we get "that" magic number again ?

I'm also trying to think of the practicality of it all. This requires the cooperation of 100 golfers. And the pro shop.

Now I pretty much only have a fair bit of knowledge of 6 or 7 pro shops over the years and they're all public golf courses. And I don't see them soliciting handicaps from the players as they pay their greens fees and even more important, I don't see the majority of casual players who DO keep their handicaps going into the pro shop after the round to report their scores and/or the pro shop wanting to take them, especially not hole-by-hole scores.

The club "members", if it's a "club day" ? Sure, but not many of the casual players, especially if they can go home and enter their NDB adjusted scores.

But maybe that's just me. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[ThinkingPlus]

Only the scores posted on that day get included. Everyone who keeps a handicap is supposed to post their score on the day they play. The pro shop is not involved. A golfer's expected score is a couple 2 or 3 strokes or more than playing to their handicap.

[rogolf]

Agree. I'm not sure why the "pro shop" or "pro" is mentioned so often in this disucssion. They have absolutely no responsibility in maintaining a player's handicap - it is purely the player's responsibility. It's not a "nanny" situation.

[Halebopp]

Here's how they used to calculate the same thing in the EGA system (page 45):https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://drieeycken.be/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2014/03/rbgfega_handicap_system_20132016_version_20131.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwj-nLKg4rTmAhU66KYKHX2mBVYQFjAYegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3UGYdzUkXxWF9xzIITX2rH

 

 

[Halebopp]

BTW. Does anyone know what handicap a player is supposed to use for the second round of the day if they play two qualifying rounds a day? They couldn't give us an answer about a month ago in our training.

Is it the same as it was for the first round, the one after the first round without the PCC or the one after the round with the estimated PCC included?

[Newby]

As both an adjusted handicap and a PCC will be only be calculated overnight it would seem that a player must us the same index all day. However the cumulative effect will be applicable the following morning.