New World Handicap System

[rogolf]

I forgot to add "imo" regarding handicap index changing during the day. Up until January 1, 2020, my handicap index would change the moment I entered a score into the system. Under WHS, I expect this to change, as there will not be a final PCC adjustment available until after the overnight calculations are done, imo.

[Augster]

The minimum is 8 scores.

[bladehunter]

I suppose. But I learned at an early age that faith in man is falsely placed. So just the fact that it’s not disclosed , whether I can comprehend it or not , irks me.

[Halebopp]

I was talking strictly about the Rule 5.4. For whatever reason I missed its recommendation to not change the Handicap Index during the day, I must've simply read the Interpretation. As it's only a recommendation that the HI is left untouched, it might very well be that it's a choice left to each handicapping authority to decide. USGA clearly discourages committees from changing anything else than the Playing Handicap, which would fall in line with the problems of not knowing the final PCC for the day at the moment the score is posted.

In a situation when a new round is played before the player’s Handicap Index has been updated, including when multiple rounds are played on the same day, it is recommended that the player uses their existing Handicap Index. However, in certain circumstances, the Committee in charge of the competition (or the Handicap Committee) has the discretion to decide what Playing Handicap the player should use (see Rule 7.2). 

[Mr. Bean]

Just to be precise here: In current EGA system the handicap would not change immediately after posting if it was a competition round as the CBA is calculated only after the competition is closed. Otherwise the hcp would change. So in WHS all rounds will be treated as current EGA competition rounds in that respect.

[Mr. Bean]

Not really. A much better way is to play 100 rounds and learn to play and not post any of those scores. Then you enter a competition and win by 13 strokes as your handicap would be way off.

But who would want to do that?

[ThinkingPlus]

Actually I don't believe that change will occur within the USGA jurisdiction. All rounds will continue to be posted except solo rounds or rounds with mandatory less than 14 clubs, etc... .

[sui generis]

I went to school on WHS a couple of weeks ago and agree that in the US the posting regimen will be unchanged.

[DaveLeeNC]

I don't know where Mr. Bean got the idea that (for posting) the USGA was going to require a Marker and that you had to declare such a round to that Marker in advance. That wording is nowhere that I have found in the WHS "Rules-of-Handicapping_USGA_Final.pdf" document. It certainly is not in Rule 2 (Scores Acceptable for Handicap Purposes).

dave

[Augster]

I’ll weigh in to concur with the others. In the US, posting rules remain the same with the add of NDB instead of ESC and no T scores. Nothing else changes for the player in regards to posting.

[DaveLeeNC]

There is one other 'acceptable score' limitation in the new system that I don't recall seeing (explicitly) in the old (USGA) system. Rule 2 says that only scores generated in an 'authorized format of play' can be posted. There is a list of those formats in the document. Then it says that other formats formats 'approved by your home jurisdiction (Carolina's Golf Association for me) are also postable,

At our club we play a lot of four person team games (everyone plays their own ball, and there are a myriad of ways to generate a team score). I am assuming that there is no intent to not allow posting of scores for these types of competitions, but to be sure I have sent a question about that to the CGA. Will post a response when I get one.

dave

[davep043]

@DaveLeeNC says "Then it says that other formats formats 'approved by your home jurisdiction (Carolina's Golf Association for me) are also postable,"
I don't see the wording that allows "other formats" to be posted. Can you point me to it?
If you're looking at (i) and (ii) after the table, I'm pretty sure that these areas clarify what to do depending on where you play. For instance, someone from England playing a fourball match while on holiday in the US should post that score, even though posting fourball rounds may be restricted in his home area. If a format is acceptable for posting EITHER in your home region, or in the region where you're playing, the score should be posted.

[Mr. Bean]

Well, I had this silly idea that a World Handicap System would unite the practices around the world. Silly me...

[Hawkeye77]

Brings to mind Felix Unger and "assume", so brought me a smile.

 

[Deceptively Short]

So if I play a matchplay or team round whilst on holiday in the US, I am expected to post it? Even though as a CONGU player I have no idea as to how to score incomplete holes or rounds (I would normally post only singles strokeplay). Many of us frequently visit other jurisdictions with wives and groups of friends but would have no idea of formats which are acceptable in that region. How do we find out what should be posted? if we don’t is there a sanction?

I have read nothing at all about this on all the England Golf communications nor at their seminars.

[davep043]

That is the way the USGA rules read right now. I suggest that you review the rules in your home territory to be sure of what you should do.

[Halebopp]

It's the same way in Finland. The only time you can't post is when neither of the jurisdictions allow the format. You are required to post in all other instances.

[Colin L]

To be acceptable, a score must be certified, but there were three options open to Authorised Associations for how a score is certified - a marker, peer review or a combination of the two. I expect Mr Bean thought it was a universal requirement to have a marker because presumably the EGA, like CONGU, has opted to make it so in its jurisdiction and he was unaware that a different choice could be made by another Association.

 

[rogolf]

When we play here (North America), somebody in the group always keeps a scorecard for all of us, that should qualify as a "marker"? or peer review? or both? :-)

[Deceptively Short]

But if I play outside my jurisdiction, all my authorities’ stipulations of what is an acceptable score go out of the window?

[davep043]

That is the way the USGA Rules read, yes. At the seminar attended, "peer review" was the method emphasized. And peer review is a combination of Handicap Committee review, as well as public availability of all scores posted. so your playing partners can verify that you posted the correct score. At this time, the USGA hasn't gone any further down the road to requiring formal attestation of your score. Perhaps in further revisions this regional variability will be decreased.

[rogolf]

On our system, anyone on the system can look at any other player's last 20 scores using "Handicap Lookup". That sounds like it meets the requirements of peer review - the scores are available to all those participating in the handicap system (not just members of the same club).

[Swisstrader98]

Wow! That intro video was horrific!

[DaveLeeNC]

Dave, I had assumed that when the document referenced your local jurisdiction authorizing formats of play, it was talking about your local jurisdiction adding formats of play to the list of 'authorized formats of play' (in Table 2.1a). But maybe they are talking about 'de-authorizing' some of the "authorized forms of play". I would have used different wording if that was the intention, but possibly I am misreading things here. But having a table of 'authorized formats of play' which may or may not be authorized depending on what is done by your home jurisdiction seems a bit misleading to me.

Hopefully I will get a response from the CGA that will be helpful. Surely the 4 person team games that so dominate play at our club will somehow be able to generate postable scores. If not, I will for all practical purposes, not be able to generate a handicap.

dave

[Colin L]

That's what I understand to be peer review. Here we will have the requirement to have a marker and scores will be open to peer review.

[Shilgy]

You are definitely overthinking this. The PCC is determined by the scores shot each day on your course. The tees and pin positions will typically affect the scores shot. As will the weather conditions of course. The scoring of the day is compared to the norm that that group of players would shoot. There will be few days that are affected. Here in Phoenix we were told that it would be likely to be about five days per year, at most, that are influenced to the point that a PCC change would kick in.

The pro shop has absolutely no input into the PCC. None. It is strictly created by a computer algorithm comparing expected scores versus actual. Yes, it is a proprietary calculation so the aftermarket apps that calculate handicaps will no longer be accurate.

 

Think of it this way.....if the normal day of play at your club creates scores that average 2-5 strokes over the players indexes then a day where the average score is 7-10 over would trigger a PCC adjustment. Even that day would likely only create a PCC adjustment of just one stroke. It will not be a daily occurrence of the PCC being triggered.

[rogolf]

I'm also interested in the answer because I'm in the same boat. 90% (4 times per week) of my scores are in a similar format to what you describe.

[rogolf]

As I indicated (asked), we have one scorecard for our group, kept by our "marker". I don't think the Rules distinctly say that one marker cannot fulfill the function for more than one player.

[DaveLeeNC]

I would however assume that there has to be at least 2 markers if all 4 of the players are to have a marker.

dave

[sui generis]

Nicely put, Shilgy.