New World Handicap System

[hack2489]

Don't know if any of you now getting the PCC (or as ts known here down under, the DSR) have considered the mind f#$k it does to your scoring...

Let me explain with a real example.

Course I play off the back markers is rated at slope 138, par 72 but scratch rating is 74. Yep, it's a tough track.

I played a tournament round there last year and shot 96, stroke round. The DSR or as you guys call it, the PCC, came in at 76.

I walked off feeling pretty ordinary. Goal was no more than 18 over OTS, so working off course par, I had a goal of sub 90. So my score of 96 was off pace and disappointment followed me the the 19th.

Next morning I see my index and I had a played to of 15.2.

Huh?

The 96 was 20 over the DSR.

That 20 over with slope adjustment worked out at 15.2.

I had an index of 16 before that round, so my 96, 20 over became a flagged round.

Go figure.

 

[antip]

They almost never form part of the handicap record here in Australia, either. Simple reason is an extremely high proportion of rounds by club members are individual registered competition cards - and club members are a very high proportion of all golfers - so there is no need to try to get extra data in to have a reliable handicap record. 4 ball data is very rarely as useful as a reliable indicator of an individual's score.

[Newby]

The formula for PCC is not the same as for DSR.

[Newby]

In addition to antip's comment is the potential 'loosening' of tight control of scoring.

4BBB (incl variations) and matchplay have a perceived built in problem that are almost an anathema to non North Americans. Not holing out and estimated scores.

However, given the WHS standardising on NDB, it is expected that CONGU (or at least England) will move to accept such scores in the next few years. Ireland already accepts matchplay scores

[hack2489]

Really?

Reading this thread I got the impression it was very similar and the exact calculation of the PCC was still unknown.

What is the DSR formula?

What is the PCC formula?

 

 

 

 

[Newby]

The statement was something I saw on the Golf Australia website some weeks ago. They are similar but not the same.

[Deceptively Short]

I understand CONGU's reservations and their decisions not to accept such scores for the meantime, but this still doesn't answer the questions to why these scores suddenly become acceptable for one's record if they happen to be played in a different geographic locations - where is the logic?

I assume the same applies to their willingness to ignore their own strictures on pre registration and attestation.

This will need to be explained better before member communication starts in earnest in the New Year.

[Newby]

1) The official Finnish WHS has not yet been published 2) Acceptable: yes. Mandatory to post: no, unless player's home nation says so. Ours does not.

If 1) how do you know 2) ?

[Newby]

Member (as opposed to handicap administrator) communication will not be starting for some time. We (Handicap Advisors and County presenters) have only just been given the revised/updated powerpoint package for the initial presentations to administrators which will be continuing for some time.

Because we have some 1800+ clubs to deal with, EG is currently producing the packages for clubs to present to their members.

But I am not sure why members need to know the reasons for the posting rules now. But IMO if EG allowed them immediately there would be even more hoohah. Players would have enough on getting to grips with main principles (8/20 & slope) with out this added distraction.

 

[Sawgrass]

What't the point of a worldwide system if there aren't worldwide dissimilarities? Obviously.

[davep043]

I think the reasoning behind this is similar to the adaption of the PCC for everyone, its a compromise. The entire WHS is a bunch of compromises, each of us will be moving in some way towards the procedures and principles that are used somewhere else in the world. This particular compromise won't have a huge effect, as most of us play most of our golf in our home region. But being encouraged (or required) to learn a bit about the standards of another country when we visit that country seems to me to be a good thing.

[Deceptively Short]

I understand the process and sincerely look forward to a logical reason for posting anomalies that I have outlined, as it will have to be explained at some point.

Hopefully it will be in the FAQs for the handicap administrators presentations: by the way are you suggesting that the presentation made in October (in our region) will have been updated when the second one is done (due in February) as we were not advised that they might be different, just that there two separate ones to accommodate the numbers.

[DaveLeeNC]

I have not paid a lot of attention to how the WHS affects non-US golfers (or cross jurisdiction play). But I have the impression that some jurisdictions will not be authorizing posting on games where all balls are not holed out, 18 holes are not completed, etc. Match play and some forms of team play are also being excluded (based on my vague memory). So there is some consistency in that regard. These places also do not use (or need) the concept of 'most likely score' or 'holes not played by the RoG' - at least for play in their home jurisdiction.

But they WILL have to deal with them in some cases of out of jurisdiction play (which seems to be more common WW than in the US). Nothing is perfect but that will probably be one of the 'lesser perfect aspects' of the WHS (counterbalanced by not being that common).

The WHS is clearly a compromise with the intent (or at least hope) of more commonality down the road than will be present in 2020. I will say that possibly the MOST important aspect of handicapping (how many strokes do I get?) being different across regions is quite a surprise to me.

dave

[Newby]

There have been some modifications to the speakers notes and minor changes to some sentence structures on the slides. The only change of note is the graph relating to Slope. It now shows the line for a scratch player correctly.

[Newby]

These places also do not use (or need) the concept of 'most likely score' 

Net Double Bogey will be universal. MLS is defunct.I will say that possibly the MOST important aspect of handicapping (how many strokes do I get?) being different across regions is quite a surprise to me.

Where/how is it different?

[DaveLeeNC]

MLS is still in effect in the US for holes not completed (but started - Rule 3.3). There is even a discussion regarding how to apply this rule (at least in the US).

For holes not started (e.g., a match that ends before the 18th hole), in most cases your hole score is net PAR - not NDB. In the US for match play you are allowed to finish the round and use actual scores, FWIW.

In some jurisdictions you get (for competition purposes) HI x Slope/113. In other jurisdictions it is different by the amount of CR-Par.

dave

[James the Hogan Fan]

But that is not this. If the nations of Europe came together and announced: "Hurrah! We have created the Uniform European Traffic Regulations to simplify driving wherever you go in Europe" (and marketed them as such), an unassuming person might carry on driving as in their home country. Is it hard to find out what you need to do? Not really (although it is harder when one doesn't know they need to find something out), but why bother? If they just said "Post a score if you would post it at home. Do not post it if you would not post it at home," it would have eliminated what I see as an unneccessary opportunity to introduce error.I find it strange as well, that an English player who comes to the US and plays a 4-ball match must know he needs to post and the various nuances rules for posting... Wouldn't a world handicap system be more logical if a player may/should/must post in the manner of his home course?

[Newby]

Thanks. I don't know why I had forgotten that because I find it to be the most difficult variation to get to grips with. As it can be complicated and the variances so many, I would have thought they would have resolved the mathematical/statistical arguments before going live.

[Deceptively Short]

We in CONGU land will need to get our heads around MLS too as we are going to be obliged to post scores using this when playing in some jurisdictions. I look forward to reading the explanations of it in due course.

[Newby]

We haven't yet seen the EGA countries' version of the rule but I suspect they (with their current system being stableford based) will stick with NDB.

So how often do you go to Florida or the Carolinas to play?

[Deceptively Short]

My wife and I go to play in the US a couple of times a year. At my Club there quite a few groups who go regularly to Florida in November, December time. If you go for a week it can be good value versus some of the high priced golf in the Costa del Sol or Algarve. So this will effect 20 or 30 members at least that I know of, maybe there are more, playing regularly 6 or more rounds on consecutive days each (so significant in their annual record) so they will all need to know. Also members will need to be aware the protocols when visiting other jurisdictions and any changes they make to acceptable scores in due course. We’ll also need to find out what will happen for example in Turkey and Morocco as these are becoming popular.

It would have been a lot easier if postable scores are based on what is acceptable for your own ruling body not on the geographical location of the course on which you happen to be playing.

[Newby]

Nice to have the opportunity. I stopped going to Naples some years ago. We found the flights and drive too long.

But as you and the others go so often it won't take long to sort it all out

[Deceptively Short]

Well we’ll try our best to explain it to any and all people who are in this position.

My guess is that they will see it all as too much of a hassle (the mere concept of MLS is difficult to get across)and so they won’t post such rounds. Groups visiting other areas will not be checking websites for up to date rules on posting in other jurisdictions and will just post what they do ‘at home’. But I may well be proved wrong.

 

[Mr. Bean]

There are other sources of information than not-yet-published papers, such as training sessions and direct contacts with those who know. I believe you are using same kinds of methods whenever there are changes about, no?

I will return to this issue (if I remember) whenever the WHS has been published.

[bladehunter]

Not that anyone cares. But for laughs I thought I’d follow up.

 

Played this afternoon , our pro was in my 4 some. So casually in conversation I ask “ so what do you think of the handicap changes for January “. He says “ yea. I read something about that last night. Said they were taking the weather report into account , or something “. And changed the subject.

 

So there you have it. The committees link to the CGA information, has no idea.

[ChaosTheory]

I read the first 12 pages, then skipped around till the end. Maybe this has been asked and answered.

It seems that at a club or tees with CR less than par, this change will hurt higher cappers against lower ones by compressing the range of caps? No?

[Halebopp]

No, it doesn't. CR - Par isn't affected by the player's handicap. Parentheses to make the "two parts" of the formula more clear:

 

Course Handicap = (Handicap * Slope/113) + (CR - Par)

[nsxguy]

How often does you club have organized play ? Every day ? Every Sat & Sun ? How often are the comps a 1 day event ? vs. multiple days ?

It's possible he believes it doesn't matter all that much. Since everything is expected to be automated, including the PCC, who cares how the system works ?

All that's (really ?) necessary is that the scores are posted THAT DAY,,,,,,,,,,,,,, and even then, scores can still be entered later. And since the prevailing opinion here seems to be that comps over multiple rounds/days will keep the same 'cap throughout the event, again, why should he care ?

[nsxguy]

CR - PAR seems to be included so as to "force" event organizers into allowing for different sets of tees. Previously, if an organizer said "your course handicap is your course handicap for the event based solely on the tee you are playing", it wouldn't honor the adjustment for different tee sets guidelines on the (2019) USGA HC Manual.

Now those guys have no choice. LOL

Yeah, parentheses do make it more clear even though none of them are necessary.

[bladehunter]

And you maybe very correct.

 

It jist rubs my senses wrong. Im a planner and therefore my favorite questions are what where and why ? When things are just tossed to the wind and hope is the main guiding star , it just makes my skin crawl. I hope you are correct. Lol. Pardon the pun.