Excessive penalty strokes (LPGA'er gets 58, EuroPGA'er gets 10)....is anybody watching?

[bulls9999]

Just this week Lee Ann Walker (LPGA) got assessed 58 penalty strokes over 2 rounds for her caddy lining up her putts and EuroPGA Marcel Siem accumulated 10 penalty strokes for cleaning and placing his ball when you weren't supposed to. So just curious, do your playing partners and their caddy simply not notice these things and don't say anything (or chuckle under their breadth)? On a green, you can't help but notice a caddy helping a player line up a putt. Cleaning and placing a ball is very noticeable. So what gives?

[nlinneman20]

I'm not a rules stickler by any means. I mean I count my penalty strokes, tee off in the proper area, etc.

 

However I dont nor do I make others travel to the other side of a lake to drop a ball, if a ball is half mud I wipe it off then hit it, when aligning my putt I dont use a marker, etc.

 

What is the rule of cleaning and placing? Do they sometime allow it? I mean I dont know all the rules of golf but hell even I know you cant touch or move a ball unless its marked on a green.

 

A simple viewing of Happy Gilmore will teach you that lesson

[bulls9999]

Yes, on the PGA/EuroPGA tour, if the conditions are extremely wet where many shots can readily pick up mud when they land, they will allow it. But my point was, I can't believe no one notices these things and doesn't say anything to the player. These guys are not playing 'ready golf', they are usually waiting (likely watching) for the other player and then they have their turn.

 

> @nlinneman20 said:

> I'm not a rules stickler by any means. I mean I count my penalty strokes, tee off in the proper area, etc.

>

> However I dont nor do I make others travel to the other side of a lake to drop a ball, if a ball is half mud I wipe it off then hit it, when aligning my putt I dont use a marker, etc.

>

> What is the rule of cleaning and placing? Do they sometime allow it? I mean I dont know all the rules of golf but **** even I know you cant touch or move a ball unless its marked on a green.

>

> A simple viewing of Happy Gilmore will teach you that lesson

 

 

[KMeloney]

Wasn't the woman an ex-LPGA player, and hadn't played an event since back when she WAS allowed to have a caddie line her up? She apparently had no idea about the new rule -- presumably, at least in part, because she hadn't been in the situation where she had to know. (At least that's the impression I got from the article.)

 

As for the Euro player, he either just assumed that you could LCP, or his caddie thought he heard that you could (and therefore was under the same impression and wouldn't think to stop him from doing it). It's not a judgment call (it's either been allowed for the round, or it's not). So, I have to believe that he and his caddie got the impression somewhere that it was ok.

[NonCompetitive1]

Talk about putting the player under the pump. If you don't want to respect the rules you deserve the needle. I'm happy with them to give her the big hit.

[avgjoe88]

I'm by no means a rules expert, but as someone playing on the professional level, regardless if you were out for a while or not, wouldn't one of the first things you do is look at the rule changes? I'm not calling her a liar by any means, and this may be a little out of context for this thread. That was just what I was thinking when I first heard the story break.

[musclefront]

No one cares.

 

I watch everything golf and saw there was senior LPGA MAJOR on my dvr. Sorry but zero interest in that

[musclefront]

> @NonCompetitive1 said:

> Talk about putting the player under the pump. If you don't want to respect the rules you deserve the needle. I'm happy with them to give her the big hit.

 

Shocking

[NonCompetitive1]

> @avgjoe88 said:

> I'm by no means a rules expert, but as someone playing on the professional level, regardless if you were out for a while or not, wouldn't one of the first things you do is look at the rule changes? I'm not calling her a liar by any means, and this may be a little out of context for this thread. That was just what I was thinking when I first heard the story break.

 

I know exactly what you mean. Extra attempt to play the field. Good job they upheld on the rule book.

[musclefront]

> @NonCompetitive1 said:

> > @avgjoe88 said:

> > I'm by no means a rules expert, but as someone playing on the professional level, regardless if you were out for a while or not, wouldn't one of the first things you do is look at the rule changes? I'm not calling her a liar by any means, and this may be a little out of context for this thread. That was just what I was thinking when I first heard the story break.

>

> I know exactly what you mean. Extra attempt to play the field. Good job they upheld on the rule book.

 

Yea I’m sure she was legitimately trying to get one (or more) up on the field. ?

[imakaveli]

Some new rules are dumb indeed...

[bulls9999]

Yes, she hadn't played lately, but my point was.... aren't the other players/caddies watching this?.... hard to miss someone helping you line up putts, over your shoulder, hole after hole.... no one said anything to her for 1 1/2 rounds? Same with the guy on the Eurotour, you see someone pick up a ball in the fairway, wipe it, and place it back down when you are not doing that..... uhm, do you just keep quiet or say something? It's not like amateurs who may play 'ready golf', each attending to their own balls.... the pro's wait on each other, watching them while they do their thing and then go off to their ball. That's what got me curious on this.

 

> @KMeloney said:

> Wasn't the woman an ex-LPGA player, and hadn't played an event since back when she WAS allowed to have a caddie line her up? She apparently had no idea about the new rule -- presumably, at least in part, because she hadn't been in the situation where she had to know. (At least that's the impression I got from the article.)

>

> As for the Euro player, he either just assumed that you could LCP, or his caddie thought he heard that you could (and therefore was under the same impression and wouldn't think to stop him from doing it). It's not a judgment call (it's either been allowed for the round, or it's not). So, I have to believe that he and his caddie got the impression somewhere that it was ok.

 

 

[URStillAway]

Yes that is the most interesting part. Who were these players playing with and why did they not say anything after a few holes?

 

And I find it very bizarre the players did not know the rules. Nor notice no one else was picking up the ball or having their caddy line them up.

[NonCompetitive1]

> @musclefront said:

> > @NonCompetitive1 said:

> > > @avgjoe88 said:

> > > I'm by no means a rules expert, but as someone playing on the professional level, regardless if you were out for a while or not, wouldn't one of the first things you do is look at the rule changes? I'm not calling her a liar by any means, and this may be a little out of context for this thread. That was just what I was thinking when I first heard the story break.

> >

> > I know exactly what you mean. Extra attempt to play the field. Good job they upheld on the rule book.

>

> Yea I’m sure she was legitimately trying to get one (or more) up on the field. ?

 

The problem is you don't realise it yet - conscious and subconscious is the same. You are still a big stupid.

[Ferguson]

> @NonCompetitive1 said:

> Talk about putting the player under the pump. If you don't want to respect the rules you deserve the needle. I'm happy with them to give her the big hit.

 

 

This thread will die on the vine.

 

 

 

I did learn a new phrase though, **"under the pump." **

 

 

I am taking that phrase and using it in everyday life.

Thanks.

 

[KMeloney]

> @bulls9999 said:

> Yes, she hadn't played lately, but my point was.... aren't the other players/caddies watching this?.... hard to miss someone helping you line up putts, over your shoulder, hole after hole.... no one said anything to her for 1 1/2 rounds? Same with the guy on the Eurotour, you see someone pick up a ball in the fairway, wipe it, and place it back down when you are not doing that..... uhm, do you just keep quiet or say something? It's not like amateurs who may play 'ready golf', each attending to their own balls.... the pro's wait on each other, watching them while they do their thing and then go off to their ball. That's what got me curious on this.

>

> > @KMeloney said:

> > Wasn't the woman an ex-LPGA player, and hadn't played an event since back when she WAS allowed to have a caddie line her up? She apparently had no idea about the new rule -- presumably, at least in part, because she hadn't been in the situation where she had to know. (At least that's the impression I got from the article.)

> >

> > As for the Euro player, he either just assumed that you could LCP, or his caddie thought he heard that you could (and therefore was under the same impression and wouldn't think to stop him from doing it). It's not a judgment call (it's either been allowed for the round, or it's not). So, I have to believe that he and his caddie got the impression somewhere that it was ok.

>

>

Yeah, I can't argue with any of that. Are you "protecting the field" more to call these folks out early, or to not say anything? Do these tour players just sit back and let the officials deal with infractions so as to not get a reputation for being a snitch? I have no idea. It IS truly amazing that these folks got it so wrong.

[CCTxGolf]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @NonCompetitive1 said:

> > Talk about putting the player under the pump. If you don't want to respect the rules you deserve the needle. I'm happy with them to give her the big hit.

>

>

> This thread will die on the vine.

>

>

>

> I did learn a new phrase though, **"under the pump." **

>

>

> I am taking that phrase and using it in everyday life.

> Thanks.

>

 

Same! First for me for “under the pump”. My gf’s daughter is writing a high school paper about odd phrase and the origins/meanings. WRX finally paid off. Lol

[North Texas]

I was thinking the same thing. What were her playing competitors doing?

 

Now,, by my count, exactly 2 posters have replied to the OP's actual question. Most of the rest of the replies in this thread have been opinionated crap and unrelated to the OP. Shocking.

[SkiSchoolPro]

> @KMeloney said:

> > @bulls9999 said:

> > Yes, she hadn't played lately, but my point was.... aren't the other players/caddies watching this?.... hard to miss someone helping you line up putts, over your shoulder, hole after hole.... no one said anything to her for 1 1/2 rounds? Same with the guy on the Eurotour, you see someone pick up a ball in the fairway, wipe it, and place it back down when you are not doing that..... uhm, do you just keep quiet or say something? It's not like amateurs who may play 'ready golf', each attending to their own balls.... the pro's wait on each other, watching them while they do their thing and then go off to their ball. That's what got me curious on this.

> >

> > > @KMeloney said:

> > > Wasn't the woman an ex-LPGA player, and hadn't played an event since back when she WAS allowed to have a caddie line her up? She apparently had no idea about the new rule -- presumably, at least in part, because she hadn't been in the situation where she had to know. (At least that's the impression I got from the article.)

> > >

> > > As for the Euro player, he either just assumed that you could LCP, or his caddie thought he heard that you could (and therefore was under the same impression and wouldn't think to stop him from doing it). It's not a judgment call (it's either been allowed for the round, or it's not). So, I have to believe that he and his caddie got the impression somewhere that it was ok.

> >

> >

> Yeah, I can't argue with any of that. Are you "protecting the field" more to call these folks out early, or to not say anything? Do these tour players just sit back and let the officials deal with infractions so as to not get a reputation for being a snitch? I have no idea. It IS truly amazing that these folks got it so wrong.

 

I don't have any info outside this thread, but I know there are times when I get in my own little bubble and don't pay too much attention to what other players are doing. Obvious lining up on the green seems like it would be harder to miss for 1.5 rounds, but I see many tour players talking with their caddies and focusing on their approach shot rather than watching another player's prep. I could see lcp being completely missed, especially if the playing partners were in the rough, ahead, behind or on the other side of the fairway.

[MidwestGolfBum]

> @KMeloney said:

> > @bulls9999 said:

> > Yes, she hadn't played lately, but my point was.... aren't the other players/caddies watching this?.... hard to miss someone helping you line up putts, over your shoulder, hole after hole.... no one said anything to her for 1 1/2 rounds? Same with the guy on the Eurotour, you see someone pick up a ball in the fairway, wipe it, and place it back down when you are not doing that..... uhm, do you just keep quiet or say something? It's not like amateurs who may play 'ready golf', each attending to their own balls.... the pro's wait on each other, watching them while they do their thing and then go off to their ball. That's what got me curious on this.

> >

> > > @KMeloney said:

> > > Wasn't the woman an ex-LPGA player, and hadn't played an event since back when she WAS allowed to have a caddie line her up? She apparently had no idea about the new rule -- presumably, at least in part, because she hadn't been in the situation where she had to know. (At least that's the impression I got from the article.)

> > >

> > > As for the Euro player, he either just assumed that you could LCP, or his caddie thought he heard that you could (and therefore was under the same impression and wouldn't think to stop him from doing it). It's not a judgment call (it's either been allowed for the round, or it's not). So, I have to believe that he and his caddie got the impression somewhere that it was ok.

> >

> >

> Yeah, I can't argue with any of that. Are you "protecting the field" more to call these folks out early, or to not say anything? Do these tour players just sit back and let the officials deal with infractions so as to not get a reputation for being a snitch? I have no idea. It IS truly amazing that these folks got it so wrong.

 

Having been in a situation where I was playing with a guy who wasn't properly abiding by LCP rules in a state golf association event, with rules officials all over the place. I made one mention to him after the first time I noticed it, he told me he was correct, I was wrong, so I mentioned it to a rules official on the next hole. He let the other guy know what the actual rule was, correctly gave him the penalty strokes, and we went on about our day. I'm not really sure how you, as a playing competitor, don't mention something to the person you are playing with. In my experience, your playing competitor is going to either thank you, or be defiant like in my case above. At that point, you mention it to a rules official causally, let them notice the infraction, and correct the action. I was genuinely trying to help in that tournament, but it ended up costing him more because of it. The other person in my group thanked me for bringing it up, because he said he wasn't sure anymore if he misheard something at announcement time.

[NonCompetitive1]

> @Ferguson said:

> > @NonCompetitive1 said:

> > Talk about putting the player under the pump. If you don't want to respect the rules you deserve the needle. I'm happy with them to give her the big hit.

>

>

> This thread will die on the vine.

>

>

>

> I did learn a new phrase though, **"under the pump." **

>

>

> I am taking that phrase and using it in everyday life.

> Thanks.

>

 

I agree. Feel free all my posts are riddles. Some people are too stupid to ever understand them. The smarter posters see what I mean.

[Scotty1140]

Whoever her playing partner was must not have been a big fan of hers. Seems like a simple "psst, hey you can't do that anymore" from her or her caddie would have saved a few dozen strokes

[nsxguy]

> @MidwestGolfBum said:

> > @KMeloney said:

> > > @bulls9999 said:

> > > Yes, she hadn't played lately, but my point was.... aren't the other players/caddies watching this?.... hard to miss someone helping you line up putts, over your shoulder, hole after hole.... no one said anything to her for 1 1/2 rounds? Same with the guy on the Eurotour, you see someone pick up a ball in the fairway, wipe it, and place it back down when you are not doing that..... uhm, do you just keep quiet or say something? It's not like amateurs who may play 'ready golf', each attending to their own balls.... the pro's wait on each other, watching them while they do their thing and then go off to their ball. That's what got me curious on this.

> > >

> > > > @KMeloney said:

> > > > Wasn't the woman an ex-LPGA player, and hadn't played an event since back when she WAS allowed to have a caddie line her up? She apparently had no idea about the new rule -- presumably, at least in part, because she hadn't been in the situation where she had to know. (At least that's the impression I got from the article.)

> > > >

> > > > As for the Euro player, he either just assumed that you could LCP, or his caddie thought he heard that you could (and therefore was under the same impression and wouldn't think to stop him from doing it). It's not a judgment call (it's either been allowed for the round, or it's not). So, I have to believe that he and his caddie got the impression somewhere that it was ok.

> > >

> > >

> > Yeah, I can't argue with any of that. Are you "protecting the field" more to call these folks out early, or to not say anything? Do these tour players just sit back and let the officials deal with infractions so as to not get a reputation for being a snitch? I have no idea. It IS truly amazing that these folks got it so wrong.

>

> Having been in a situation where I was playing with a guy who wasn't properly abiding by LCP rules in a state golf association event, with rules officials all over the place. I made one mention to him after the first time I noticed it, he told me he was correct, I was wrong, so I mentioned it to a rules official on the next hole. He let the other guy know what the actual rule was, correctly gave him the penalty strokes, and we went on about our day. I'm not really sure how you, as a playing competitor, don't mention something to the person you are playing with. In my experience, your playing competitor is going to either thank you, or be defiant like in my case above. At that point, you mention it to a rules official causally, let them notice the infraction, and correct the action. I was genuinely trying to help in that tournament, but it ended up costing him more because of it. The other person in my group thanked me for bringing it up, because he said he wasn't sure anymore if he misheard something at announcement time.

 

Remember, no good deed goes unpunished.

 

Some 25 years ago, at a Myrtle Beach tournament, a fellow competitor hit his 3rd into a par 5 across the yellow water hazard. The ball landed outside of the hazard but rolled back in.

 

One of the other FC's in my group told the guy he could drop on the greenside since the ball hit outside of the hazard. I told the guy, "no, you have to go over the hazard again". After some time discussing the rule, I told the guy he could play 2 balls, choose the ball with which he wants to score (if allowed) and get a ruling later.

 

He, of course, chose the ball from the greenside part of the hazard. His 2nd ball went over the green into a bunker and he made 8 with it. He made 6 with the ball he chose.

 

Happened to be the 9th hole so we rode quickly to the Pro shop to get a decision but the Pro wasn't there at the moment. The Pro found us on the 10th fairway though and delivered the bad news.

 

After the round the guy confronted me rather angrily and seemed ready to get physical when the 4th guy in our 4-some told him "What are you so angry about ? If you'd taken the other guys' advice you'd have be DQ'd !!!"

[nsxguy]

P.S. There was an older thread on this elsewhere but

 

The ROG say "Information on the Rules is NOT "advice".

 

Meanwhile it also says (I'm paraphrasing here because I'm lazy) "Advice is anything that affects a fellow competitor's play".

 

The situation was where a FC teed up outside the markers and another FC noted that and the first player then re-teed inside the markers. Well, the 2nd guy certainly influenced the first player in making his play BUT he was also giving the guy information on the ROG.

 

I wrote the USGA about it and they stuck with the "Information on the ROG is NOT advice" so apparently, with those conflicting statements, the one about telling someone about the Rules supersedes the "advice" portion.

 

That said, if the players in this situation did NOT know which supersedes which, assuming they even knew both those rules in the first place, I would expect they would err on the side of caution and NOT inform the other player he/she was breaking a rule.

 

[ExTrumpet]

She deserved every penalty stroke.

 

But, man! There's a reason you give your opponent your card. One would have thought her opponent would have said something on the first friggin' putt!

[QEight]

> @nsxguy said:

>

> That said, if the players in this situation did NOT know which supersedes which, assuming they even knew both those rules in the first place, I would expect they would err on the side of caution and NOT inform the other player he/she was breaking a rule.

>

 

Are there really this clueless players? Rules and e.g. distances are public information. But you can not suggest any action based on those. Easy.

[Ferguson]

> @CCTxGolf said:

> > @Ferguson said:

> > > @NonCompetitive1 said:

> > > Talk about putting the player under the pump. If you don't want to respect the rules you deserve the needle. I'm happy with them to give her the big hit.

> >

> >

> > This thread will die on the vine.

> >

> >

> >

> > I did learn a new phrase though, **"under the pump." **

> >

> >

> > I am taking that phrase and using it in everyday life.

> > Thanks.

> >

>

> Same! First for me for “under the pump”. My gf’s daughter is writing a high school paper about odd phrase and the origins/meanings. WRX finally paid off. Lol

 

 

 

I used it on a conference call yesterday. "We don't want to get to the point where we're under the pump." Two people agreed with me.

It's out there.

 

 

[bulls9999]

Ugh, now you guys got me using it. I've would have otherwise used "under the gun" as I have forever.

 

> @Ferguson said:

> I used it on a conference call yesterday. "We don't want to get to the point where we're under the pump." Two people agreed with me.

> It's out there.

>

 

 

[Vindog]

> @nsxguy said:

> P.S. There was an older thread on this elsewhere but

>

> The ROG say "Information on the Rules is NOT "advice".

>

> Meanwhile it also says (I'm paraphrasing here because I'm lazy) "Advice is anything that affects a fellow competitor's play".

>

> The situation was where a FC teed up outside the markers and another FC noted that and the first player then re-teed inside the markers. Well, the 2nd guy certainly influenced the first player in making his play BUT he was also giving the guy information on the ROG.

>

> I wrote the USGA about it and they stuck with the "Information on the ROG is NOT advice" so apparently, with those conflicting statements, the one about telling someone about the Rules supersedes the "advice" portion.

>

> That said, if the players in this situation did NOT know which supersedes which, assuming they even knew both those rules in the first place, I would expect they would err on the side of caution and NOT inform the other player he/she was breaking a rule.

>

 

Informing players about the rules goes on at every level of golf, and I can't imagine a pro not knowing that she/he can do that without penalty. Then again, people constantly surprise me.

[bulls9999]

I have often seen a 'pro' solicit penalty drop or suggestions from another player to insure that the other player is OK with what he is doing. The hope here is, that the other player is informing the infractioned player correctly, lol, because you can't use the excuse "but he told me this was the proper way to do it". To remove all doubt, call the official.

 

> @Vindog said:

> > @nsxguy said:

> > P.S. There was an older thread on this elsewhere but

> >

> > The ROG say "Information on the Rules is NOT "advice".

> >

> > Meanwhile it also says (I'm paraphrasing here because I'm lazy) "Advice is anything that affects a fellow competitor's play".

> >

> > The situation was where a FC teed up outside the markers and another FC noted that and the first player then re-teed inside the markers. Well, the 2nd guy certainly influenced the first player in making his play BUT he was also giving the guy information on the ROG.

> >

> > I wrote the USGA about it and they stuck with the "Information on the ROG is NOT advice" so apparently, with those conflicting statements, the one about telling someone about the Rules supersedes the "advice" portion.

> >

> > That said, if the players in this situation did NOT know which supersedes which, assuming they even knew both those rules in the first place, I would expect they would err on the side of caution and NOT inform the other player he/she was breaking a rule.

> >

>

> Informing players about the rules goes on at every level of golf, and I can't imagine a pro not knowing that she/he can do that without penalty. Then again, people constantly surprise me.