..

[Krt22]

> @Obee said:

> > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @kolomoia said:

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the best tracking information that we have, his distance numbers did not go up. Talk about second hand statements on clubhead speed all you want, his distance didn't materially change.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am going to see if I can better understand your position. Could you please answer these so I can better understand?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Do you believe that golf related fitness(of any kind) designed to add speed doesn't work?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Depending on your answer to 1, do you believe only that tour players can't gain speed from golf related fitness designed to add speed?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) If yes to 2, can you elaborate why you believe that?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Have you yourself tried to add speed via some form of fitness measure?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) Can you explain if you have an agenda here. Are you trying to downplay the impact of golf fitness as it relates to the club head speed and distance players can achieve today vs players of yesteryear?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to ferret out a reasonable discussion with you. In the other thread you were so all over the place with your point of view that I am giving you another chance to clarify it. Perhaps we have had a misunderstanding this whole time, perhaps not.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1- No, I do not believe that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- No. I believe that general strength training does not result in significant added distance for Tour pros.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- N/A

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4- I am a recreational golfer. I exercise and work out for general health. I also have very good distance for a recreational golfer and have added distance through improving my swing, not from strength training.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5- I have no agenda. Do you? Are you a trainer that focuses on golfers so you are adamant in pushing the view that strength training will increase distance so you can have more clients?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was precisely clear on the other thread. No one else had any issues understanding my arguments.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > No I am not a personal trainer, I am a person that went on a solo endeavor that proved to me what can be done. I am just a amateur that wanted to see what he could do to increase distance. I changed my swing but stalled out speed increase wise. I have since become much stronger from the practice of that swing and have increase speed and distance even more and very significantly. So when you are so sure of yourself that it does nothing for tour players, but when I have demonstrated success with it and I have seen it work for many other people and significantly so, we are going to clash on this.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You have a sunk cost bias affecting your view. That's fine. I'm glad it worked for you. Hard to say how much fitness helped vs just practicing your swing more. You had mentioned on another thread that you gained 10 mph in clubhead speed. That doesn't come from fitness training. That can come from starting out as a beginner with bad technique and eventually developing a much better swing, with certain speed fitness training perhaps helping at the margin.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > LICC: I wish I could post in here what I wrote in the other thread about my experience and gains. Too lazy to re-write but I’d like to see what you say to try and debunk my experience.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No way pal, you just learned to swing better/faster. Anyone can swing it 130 +if they practiced enough. No doubt in my mind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Again, you ( @Rosco1216 ) are claiming to have faster clubhead speed than most every Tour pro. It's amazing that we have so many freakishly rare athletes posting on this forum!

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The average driving distance for recreational golfers is about 220 yards with an average clubhead speed around 95. Anything over 115mph puts you in the 99th percentile. The average driver clubhead speed for a Div. 1 NCAA golfer is about 114mph. This notion that lots of golfers can hit it 300+ and have 130 mph clubhead speeds is silly. Two people here claim they are in the top 1%ile in speed and distance. Ok, Even if so, your situations are the rare exception and I have seen nothing to believe that 99.5% of golfers can gain 10mph and 30 yards by fitness training. I'll chalk it up to accepting the claims of the two people here who say they have freakishly super athletic ability.

> > > >

> > > > There have been hundreds of threads with misinformed guys who try to use statistics and tour pros in distance arguments.

> > > >

> > > > The average “golfer” of 220 includes seniors who are decades from their prime and guys who are like Phillip Seymour Hoffman making it rain on the basketball court in Along Came Polly.

> > > >

> > > > I’ve been in lots of discussions about distance and working out and such. Early on I use to get defensive when guys say I’m a liar or I don’t how far I truly hit it. I participate in these to help guys out with experience and expertise. My video link to IG didn’t seem to work. My handle is @rc_nova

> > >

> > > The average driving distance for those with handicaps between 10-19 is 215 yards. The average distance for handicaps between 5-10 is 230.

> > >

> > > I won't challenge your actual driving distance, but I'm just saying that believing it is accepting that you are a top 1%ile golf athlete.

> >

> > How far I hit it and my percentile has absolutely nothing to do with the thread about strength gains correlating to distance. I posted to see how you were going to try and debunk that my strength training had nothing to do with how far I hit it now at 37 years vs when I was in my “prime”.

> >

> > I was a plus handicap golfer growing up, 165lbs, extremely efficient in my swing and being in the high upper 110’s. Strong for my size and very fit.

> > Now 15 years later I’m 15mph faster and haven’t done any legitimate swing speed training apart from my gym workouts.

> >

>

> All that speed must come from the new-fangled shaft technology from 2004 to 2019. Because it sure couldn't possibly be that you are stronger and more fit in every single way that involves hitting a stationary object with a club-like instrument...

 

Now you are onto something!

[clevited]

> @LICC said:

> > @Krt22 said:

> > Now you are completely moving the goal posts, quite typical for those who have zero evidence to support their claims. For every set of data, there are averages and there are those at the tail ends of the distribution. There are those who can barely drive it 150 and there are those who can and do hit it just as long or longer than PGA pros. You previously made absolute statements that such outliers were nearly impossible, for no other reason than using PGA tour players as your upper limit of speed potential which is just silly. And now essentially saying any data point outside of that is due to "freaks". Give me a break

>

> Keep scrambling if that makes you feel better ...

 

Yeah, no. You are confusing yourself with him.

[LICC]

> @kacer said:

> How many golfers are there on the planet? And yes, if you are above 115 mph you are in the 99th percentile of speed. No one is disputing that. But the best golfers hit it the furthest. I'm a +3 handicap, play competitive golf, and have been around some of the best players in the world.

>

> The guys I regularly play with have above 110 club head speed. I realize that this is not the case for a lot of people. But I don't know many low handicaps that swing at 95 and play high level competitive golf.

>

> So to say that only 2 guys on this board are faster than the longest guys on the PGA TOUR is laughable. Just because you can't figure out how to gain speed doesn't mean that other people can't. And yes, golf is more than just about speed, but high level golf REQUIRES speed.

>

> Back to the original question, speed comes from the right swing technique. Copy what the best do to hit it far and you will hit it far. You need to work on sequencing, coordination, and technique. Look at guys who know how to teach speed. Guys like George Gankas, Lucas Wald, Josh Koch. They don't post on their instagram of their students doing regular strength work. They post swing changes, technique and sequencing changes. Muscle firing techniques, all to help coordination.

>

> Anyone can learn coordination. It may take some people longer than others, but I bet if you worked on your sequencing and coordination for a solid year, you would hit it significantly farther.

>

> If you worked on your strength alone for a solid year, you wouldn't gain near the speed as working on coordination.

>

> Yoga, stretching, flexibility, all of these things help coordination. It is not because your muscles are looser, its because you got better at moving your body.

>

> I could say that yoga can actually hurt your game because you become hyper flaccid. You need tension, and elasticity in your muscles in order to use them properly. Stringing them out isn't a good idea, which comes back to the basic ideas of speed increase. Which is moving better and increasing your coordination.

 

The average distance of sub-5 handicap golfers is just over 250 yards.

 

I'm not saying only 2 persons on this board are longer than the longest guys on the Tour. I'm saying the two people commenting here about their speed and distance are among the rare top 1% of golfers who have those speeds and distances, which are even beyond top 1% and are beyond most every Tour pro.

 

I agree with everything else you said. Technique and coordination can drive distance gains. I'll further add that when it comes to distance gains on the Tour from 20+ years ago, IMO those gains are predominantly attributable to equipment technology.

[LICC]

> @Rosco1216 said:

> > @LICC said:

> >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @kolomoia said:

> >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the best tracking information that we have, his distance numbers did not go up. Talk about second hand statements on clubhead speed all you want, his distance didn't materially change.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am going to see if I can better understand your position. Could you please answer these so I can better understand?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Do you believe that golf related fitness(of any kind) designed to add speed doesn't work?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Depending on your answer to 1, do you believe only that tour players can't gain speed from golf related fitness designed to add speed?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) If yes to 2, can you elaborate why you believe that?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Have you yourself tried to add speed via some form of fitness measure?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) Can you explain if you have an agenda here. Are you trying to downplay the impact of golf fitness as it relates to the club head speed and distance players can achieve today vs players of yesteryear?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to ferret out a reasonable discussion with you. In the other thread you were so all over the place with your point of view that I am giving you another chance to clarify it. Perhaps we have had a misunderstanding this whole time, perhaps not.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > 1- No, I do not believe that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- No. I believe that general strength training does not result in significant added distance for Tour pros.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- N/A

> > > > > > > > > > > > > 4- I am a recreational golfer. I exercise and work out for general health. I also have very good distance for a recreational golfer and have added distance through improving my swing, not from strength training.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > 5- I have no agenda. Do you? Are you a trainer that focuses on golfers so you are adamant in pushing the view that strength training will increase distance so you can have more clients?

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > I was precisely clear on the other thread. No one else had any issues understanding my arguments.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > No I am not a personal trainer, I am a person that went on a solo endeavor that proved to me what can be done. I am just a amateur that wanted to see what he could do to increase distance. I changed my swing but stalled out speed increase wise. I have since become much stronger from the practice of that swing and have increase speed and distance even more and very significantly. So when you are so sure of yourself that it does nothing for tour players, but when I have demonstrated success with it and I have seen it work for many other people and significantly so, we are going to clash on this.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > You have a sunk cost bias affecting your view. That's fine. I'm glad it worked for you. Hard to say how much fitness helped vs just practicing your swing more. You had mentioned on another thread that you gained 10 mph in clubhead speed. That doesn't come from fitness training. That can come from starting out as a beginner with bad technique and eventually developing a much better swing, with certain speed fitness training perhaps helping at the margin.

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > LICC: I wish I could post in here what I wrote in the other thread about my experience and gains. Too lazy to re-write but I’d like to see what you say to try and debunk my experience.

> > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > No way pal, you just learned to swing better/faster. Anyone can swing it 130 +if they practiced enough. No doubt in my mind.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Again, you ( @Rosco1216 ) are claiming to have faster clubhead speed than most every Tour pro. It's amazing that we have so many freakishly rare athletes posting on this forum!

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > The average driving distance for recreational golfers is about 220 yards with an average clubhead speed around 95. Anything over 115mph puts you in the 99th percentile. The average driver clubhead speed for a Div. 1 NCAA golfer is about 114mph. This notion that lots of golfers can hit it 300+ and have 130 mph clubhead speeds is silly. Two people here claim they are in the top 1%ile in speed and distance. Ok, Even if so, your situations are the rare exception and I have seen nothing to believe that 99.5% of golfers can gain 10mph and 30 yards by fitness training. I'll chalk it up to accepting the claims of the two people here who say they have freakishly super athletic ability.

> > >

> > > There have been hundreds of threads with misinformed guys who try to use statistics and tour pros in distance arguments.

> > >

> > > The average “golfer” of 220 includes seniors who are decades from their prime and guys who are like Phillip Seymour Hoffman making it rain on the basketball court in Along Came Polly.

> > >

> > > I’ve been in lots of discussions about distance and working out and such. Early on I use to get defensive when guys say I’m a liar or I don’t how far I truly hit it. I participate in these to help guys out with experience and expertise. My video link to IG didn’t seem to work. My handle is @rc_nova

> >

> > The average driving distance for those with handicaps between 10-19 is 215 yards. The average distance for handicaps between 5-10 is 230.

> >

> > I won't challenge your actual driving distance, but I'm just saying that believing it is accepting that you are a top 1%ile golf athlete.

>

> How far I hit it and my percentile has absolutely nothing to do with the thread about strength gains correlating to distance. I posted to see how you were going to try and debunk that my strength training had nothing to do with how far I hit it now at 37 years vs when I was in my “prime”.

>

> I was a plus handicap golfer growing up, 165lbs, extremely efficient in my swing and being in the high upper 110’s. Strong for my size and very fit.

> Now 15 years later I’m 15mph faster and haven’t done any legitimate swing speed training apart from my gym workouts.

>

 

Equipment technology has advanced in 15 years, so a good percentage of your distance gains come from that. The other part, accepting your speed and distance claims as truth, is that you are an exceptional athlete in the top 1% of golfers and in no way typical of the 99%.

[LICC]

> @Obee said:

> > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @kolomoia said:

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the best tracking information that we have, his distance numbers did not go up. Talk about second hand statements on clubhead speed all you want, his distance didn't materially change.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am going to see if I can better understand your position. Could you please answer these so I can better understand?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Do you believe that golf related fitness(of any kind) designed to add speed doesn't work?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Depending on your answer to 1, do you believe only that tour players can't gain speed from golf related fitness designed to add speed?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) If yes to 2, can you elaborate why you believe that?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Have you yourself tried to add speed via some form of fitness measure?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) Can you explain if you have an agenda here. Are you trying to downplay the impact of golf fitness as it relates to the club head speed and distance players can achieve today vs players of yesteryear?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to ferret out a reasonable discussion with you. In the other thread you were so all over the place with your point of view that I am giving you another chance to clarify it. Perhaps we have had a misunderstanding this whole time, perhaps not.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1- No, I do not believe that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- No. I believe that general strength training does not result in significant added distance for Tour pros.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- N/A

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4- I am a recreational golfer. I exercise and work out for general health. I also have very good distance for a recreational golfer and have added distance through improving my swing, not from strength training.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5- I have no agenda. Do you? Are you a trainer that focuses on golfers so you are adamant in pushing the view that strength training will increase distance so you can have more clients?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was precisely clear on the other thread. No one else had any issues understanding my arguments.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > No I am not a personal trainer, I am a person that went on a solo endeavor that proved to me what can be done. I am just a amateur that wanted to see what he could do to increase distance. I changed my swing but stalled out speed increase wise. I have since become much stronger from the practice of that swing and have increase speed and distance even more and very significantly. So when you are so sure of yourself that it does nothing for tour players, but when I have demonstrated success with it and I have seen it work for many other people and significantly so, we are going to clash on this.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You have a sunk cost bias affecting your view. That's fine. I'm glad it worked for you. Hard to say how much fitness helped vs just practicing your swing more. You had mentioned on another thread that you gained 10 mph in clubhead speed. That doesn't come from fitness training. That can come from starting out as a beginner with bad technique and eventually developing a much better swing, with certain speed fitness training perhaps helping at the margin.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > LICC: I wish I could post in here what I wrote in the other thread about my experience and gains. Too lazy to re-write but I’d like to see what you say to try and debunk my experience.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No way pal, you just learned to swing better/faster. Anyone can swing it 130 +if they practiced enough. No doubt in my mind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Again, you ( @Rosco1216 ) are claiming to have faster clubhead speed than most every Tour pro. It's amazing that we have so many freakishly rare athletes posting on this forum!

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The average driving distance for recreational golfers is about 220 yards with an average clubhead speed around 95. Anything over 115mph puts you in the 99th percentile. The average driver clubhead speed for a Div. 1 NCAA golfer is about 114mph. This notion that lots of golfers can hit it 300+ and have 130 mph clubhead speeds is silly. Two people here claim they are in the top 1%ile in speed and distance. Ok, Even if so, your situations are the rare exception and I have seen nothing to believe that 99.5% of golfers can gain 10mph and 30 yards by fitness training. I'll chalk it up to accepting the claims of the two people here who say they have freakishly super athletic ability.

> > > >

> > > > There have been hundreds of threads with misinformed guys who try to use statistics and tour pros in distance arguments.

> > > >

> > > > The average “golfer” of 220 includes seniors who are decades from their prime and guys who are like Phillip Seymour Hoffman making it rain on the basketball court in Along Came Polly.

> > > >

> > > > I’ve been in lots of discussions about distance and working out and such. Early on I use to get defensive when guys say I’m a liar or I don’t how far I truly hit it. I participate in these to help guys out with experience and expertise. My video link to IG didn’t seem to work. My handle is @rc_nova

> > >

> > > The average driving distance for those with handicaps between 10-19 is 215 yards. The average distance for handicaps between 5-10 is 230.

> > >

> > > I won't challenge your actual driving distance, but I'm just saying that believing it is accepting that you are a top 1%ile golf athlete.

> >

> > How far I hit it and my percentile has absolutely nothing to do with the thread about strength gains correlating to distance. I posted to see how you were going to try and debunk that my strength training had nothing to do with how far I hit it now at 37 years vs when I was in my “prime”.

> >

> > I was a plus handicap golfer growing up, 165lbs, extremely efficient in my swing and being in the high upper 110’s. Strong for my size and very fit.

> > Now 15 years later I’m 15mph faster and haven’t done any legitimate swing speed training apart from my gym workouts.

> >

>

> All that speed must come from the new-fangled shaft technology from 2004 to 2019. Because it sure couldn't possibly be that you are stronger and more fit in every single way that involves hitting a stationary object with a club-like instrument...

 

Do you think club and ball equipment technology hasn't changed in 15 years? Do you think that lighter shafts and aerodynamic clubheads and new materials and composites over 15 years have not affected speed and distance?

[GoGoErky]

> @LICC said:

> > @kacer said:

> > How many golfers are there on the planet? And yes, if you are above 115 mph you are in the 99th percentile of speed. No one is disputing that. But the best golfers hit it the furthest. I'm a +3 handicap, play competitive golf, and have been around some of the best players in the world.

> >

> > The guys I regularly play with have above 110 club head speed. I realize that this is not the case for a lot of people. But I don't know many low handicaps that swing at 95 and play high level competitive golf.

> >

> > So to say that only 2 guys on this board are faster than the longest guys on the PGA TOUR is laughable. Just because you can't figure out how to gain speed doesn't mean that other people can't. And yes, golf is more than just about speed, but high level golf REQUIRES speed.

> >

> > Back to the original question, speed comes from the right swing technique. Copy what the best do to hit it far and you will hit it far. You need to work on sequencing, coordination, and technique. Look at guys who know how to teach speed. Guys like George Gankas, Lucas Wald, Josh Koch. They don't post on their instagram of their students doing regular strength work. They post swing changes, technique and sequencing changes. Muscle firing techniques, all to help coordination.

> >

> > Anyone can learn coordination. It may take some people longer than others, but I bet if you worked on your sequencing and coordination for a solid year, you would hit it significantly farther.

> >

> > If you worked on your strength alone for a solid year, you wouldn't gain near the speed as working on coordination.

> >

> > Yoga, stretching, flexibility, all of these things help coordination. It is not because your muscles are looser, its because you got better at moving your body.

> >

> > I could say that yoga can actually hurt your game because you become hyper flaccid. You need tension, and elasticity in your muscles in order to use them properly. Stringing them out isn't a good idea, which comes back to the basic ideas of speed increase. Which is moving better and increasing your coordination.

>

> The average distance of sub-5 handicap golfers is just over 250 yards.

>

> I'm not saying only 2 persons on this board are longer than the longest guys on the Tour. I'm saying the two people commenting here about their speed and distance are among the rare top 1% of golfers who have those speeds and distances, which are even beyond top 1% and are beyond most every Tour pro.

>

> I agree with everything else you said. Technique and coordination can drive distance gains. I'll further add that when it comes to distance gains on the Tour from 20+ years ago, IMO those gains are predominantly attributable to equipment technology.

 

Stop using avg distance on tour when those stats have numerous variables from course conditions, club choice, and so on. No to mention that pros don’t swing 100% effort on every swing and play with about 85-90% of their power for the majority of the round.

 

 

[LICC]

> @GoGoErky said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @kacer said:

> > > How many golfers are there on the planet? And yes, if you are above 115 mph you are in the 99th percentile of speed. No one is disputing that. But the best golfers hit it the furthest. I'm a +3 handicap, play competitive golf, and have been around some of the best players in the world.

> > >

> > > The guys I regularly play with have above 110 club head speed. I realize that this is not the case for a lot of people. But I don't know many low handicaps that swing at 95 and play high level competitive golf.

> > >

> > > So to say that only 2 guys on this board are faster than the longest guys on the PGA TOUR is laughable. Just because you can't figure out how to gain speed doesn't mean that other people can't. And yes, golf is more than just about speed, but high level golf REQUIRES speed.

> > >

> > > Back to the original question, speed comes from the right swing technique. Copy what the best do to hit it far and you will hit it far. You need to work on sequencing, coordination, and technique. Look at guys who know how to teach speed. Guys like George Gankas, Lucas Wald, Josh Koch. They don't post on their instagram of their students doing regular strength work. They post swing changes, technique and sequencing changes. Muscle firing techniques, all to help coordination.

> > >

> > > Anyone can learn coordination. It may take some people longer than others, but I bet if you worked on your sequencing and coordination for a solid year, you would hit it significantly farther.

> > >

> > > If you worked on your strength alone for a solid year, you wouldn't gain near the speed as working on coordination.

> > >

> > > Yoga, stretching, flexibility, all of these things help coordination. It is not because your muscles are looser, its because you got better at moving your body.

> > >

> > > I could say that yoga can actually hurt your game because you become hyper flaccid. You need tension, and elasticity in your muscles in order to use them properly. Stringing them out isn't a good idea, which comes back to the basic ideas of speed increase. Which is moving better and increasing your coordination.

> >

> > The average distance of sub-5 handicap golfers is just over 250 yards.

> >

> > I'm not saying only 2 persons on this board are longer than the longest guys on the Tour. I'm saying the two people commenting here about their speed and distance are among the rare top 1% of golfers who have those speeds and distances, which are even beyond top 1% and are beyond most every Tour pro.

> >

> > I agree with everything else you said. Technique and coordination can drive distance gains. I'll further add that when it comes to distance gains on the Tour from 20+ years ago, IMO those gains are predominantly attributable to equipment technology.

>

> Stop using avg distance on tour when those stats have numerous variables from course conditions, club choice, and so on. No to mention that pros don’t swing 100% effort on every swing and play with about 85-90% of their power for the majority of the round.

>

>

 

Sure, let's not use actual data when it contradicts your view.

[Rosco1216]

> @LICC said:

> > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @kolomoia said:

> > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the best tracking information that we have, his distance numbers did not go up. Talk about second hand statements on clubhead speed all you want, his distance didn't materially change.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am going to see if I can better understand your position. Could you please answer these so I can better understand?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Do you believe that golf related fitness(of any kind) designed to add speed doesn't work?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Depending on your answer to 1, do you believe only that tour players can't gain speed from golf related fitness designed to add speed?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) If yes to 2, can you elaborate why you believe that?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Have you yourself tried to add speed via some form of fitness measure?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) Can you explain if you have an agenda here. Are you trying to downplay the impact of golf fitness as it relates to the club head speed and distance players can achieve today vs players of yesteryear?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to ferret out a reasonable discussion with you. In the other thread you were so all over the place with your point of view that I am giving you another chance to clarify it. Perhaps we have had a misunderstanding this whole time, perhaps not.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1- No, I do not believe that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- No. I believe that general strength training does not result in significant added distance for Tour pros.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- N/A

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4- I am a recreational golfer. I exercise and work out for general health. I also have very good distance for a recreational golfer and have added distance through improving my swing, not from strength training.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5- I have no agenda. Do you? Are you a trainer that focuses on golfers so you are adamant in pushing the view that strength training will increase distance so you can have more clients?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was precisely clear on the other thread. No one else had any issues understanding my arguments.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > No I am not a personal trainer, I am a person that went on a solo endeavor that proved to me what can be done. I am just a amateur that wanted to see what he could do to increase distance. I changed my swing but stalled out speed increase wise. I have since become much stronger from the practice of that swing and have increase speed and distance even more and very significantly. So when you are so sure of yourself that it does nothing for tour players, but when I have demonstrated success with it and I have seen it work for many other people and significantly so, we are going to clash on this.

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > You have a sunk cost bias affecting your view. That's fine. I'm glad it worked for you. Hard to say how much fitness helped vs just practicing your swing more. You had mentioned on another thread that you gained 10 mph in clubhead speed. That doesn't come from fitness training. That can come from starting out as a beginner with bad technique and eventually developing a much better swing, with certain speed fitness training perhaps helping at the margin.

> > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > LICC: I wish I could post in here what I wrote in the other thread about my experience and gains. Too lazy to re-write but I’d like to see what you say to try and debunk my experience.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > No way pal, you just learned to swing better/faster. Anyone can swing it 130 +if they practiced enough. No doubt in my mind.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > Again, you ( @Rosco1216 ) are claiming to have faster clubhead speed than most every Tour pro. It's amazing that we have so many freakishly rare athletes posting on this forum!

> > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > The average driving distance for recreational golfers is about 220 yards with an average clubhead speed around 95. Anything over 115mph puts you in the 99th percentile. The average driver clubhead speed for a Div. 1 NCAA golfer is about 114mph. This notion that lots of golfers can hit it 300+ and have 130 mph clubhead speeds is silly. Two people here claim they are in the top 1%ile in speed and distance. Ok, Even if so, your situations are the rare exception and I have seen nothing to believe that 99.5% of golfers can gain 10mph and 30 yards by fitness training. I'll chalk it up to accepting the claims of the two people here who say they have freakishly super athletic ability.

> > > >

> > > > There have been hundreds of threads with misinformed guys who try to use statistics and tour pros in distance arguments.

> > > >

> > > > The average “golfer” of 220 includes seniors who are decades from their prime and guys who are like Phillip Seymour Hoffman making it rain on the basketball court in Along Came Polly.

> > > >

> > > > I’ve been in lots of discussions about distance and working out and such. Early on I use to get defensive when guys say I’m a liar or I don’t how far I truly hit it. I participate in these to help guys out with experience and expertise. My video link to IG didn’t seem to work. My handle is @rc_nova

> > >

> > > The average driving distance for those with handicaps between 10-19 is 215 yards. The average distance for handicaps between 5-10 is 230.

> > >

> > > I won't challenge your actual driving distance, but I'm just saying that believing it is accepting that you are a top 1%ile golf athlete.

> >

> > How far I hit it and my percentile has absolutely nothing to do with the thread about strength gains correlating to distance. I posted to see how you were going to try and debunk that my strength training had nothing to do with how far I hit it now at 37 years vs when I was in my “prime”.

> >

> > I was a plus handicap golfer growing up, 165lbs, extremely efficient in my swing and being in the high upper 110’s. Strong for my size and very fit.

> > Now 15 years later I’m 15mph faster and haven’t done any legitimate swing speed training apart from my gym workouts.

> >

>

> Equipment technology has advanced in 15 years, so a good percentage of your distance gains come from that. The other part, accepting your speed and distance claims as truth, is that you are an exceptional athlete in the top 1% of golfers and in no way typical of the 99%.

 

You’re still avoiding it...

 

Equipment technology? I haven’t once mentioned distance(yardage) gains in the last 15 years, I’ve only mention club speed.

[Rosco1216]

> @LICC said:

> > @Obee said:

> > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @kolomoia said:

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the best tracking information that we have, his distance numbers did not go up. Talk about second hand statements on clubhead speed all you want, his distance didn't materially change.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am going to see if I can better understand your position. Could you please answer these so I can better understand?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Do you believe that golf related fitness(of any kind) designed to add speed doesn't work?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Depending on your answer to 1, do you believe only that tour players can't gain speed from golf related fitness designed to add speed?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) If yes to 2, can you elaborate why you believe that?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Have you yourself tried to add speed via some form of fitness measure?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) Can you explain if you have an agenda here. Are you trying to downplay the impact of golf fitness as it relates to the club head speed and distance players can achieve today vs players of yesteryear?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to ferret out a reasonable discussion with you. In the other thread you were so all over the place with your point of view that I am giving you another chance to clarify it. Perhaps we have had a misunderstanding this whole time, perhaps not.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1- No, I do not believe that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- No. I believe that general strength training does not result in significant added distance for Tour pros.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- N/A

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4- I am a recreational golfer. I exercise and work out for general health. I also have very good distance for a recreational golfer and have added distance through improving my swing, not from strength training.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5- I have no agenda. Do you? Are you a trainer that focuses on golfers so you are adamant in pushing the view that strength training will increase distance so you can have more clients?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was precisely clear on the other thread. No one else had any issues understanding my arguments.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I am not a personal trainer, I am a person that went on a solo endeavor that proved to me what can be done. I am just a amateur that wanted to see what he could do to increase distance. I changed my swing but stalled out speed increase wise. I have since become much stronger from the practice of that swing and have increase speed and distance even more and very significantly. So when you are so sure of yourself that it does nothing for tour players, but when I have demonstrated success with it and I have seen it work for many other people and significantly so, we are going to clash on this.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You have a sunk cost bias affecting your view. That's fine. I'm glad it worked for you. Hard to say how much fitness helped vs just practicing your swing more. You had mentioned on another thread that you gained 10 mph in clubhead speed. That doesn't come from fitness training. That can come from starting out as a beginner with bad technique and eventually developing a much better swing, with certain speed fitness training perhaps helping at the margin.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > LICC: I wish I could post in here what I wrote in the other thread about my experience and gains. Too lazy to re-write but I’d like to see what you say to try and debunk my experience.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No way pal, you just learned to swing better/faster. Anyone can swing it 130 +if they practiced enough. No doubt in my mind.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Again, you ( @Rosco1216 ) are claiming to have faster clubhead speed than most every Tour pro. It's amazing that we have so many freakishly rare athletes posting on this forum!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The average driving distance for recreational golfers is about 220 yards with an average clubhead speed around 95. Anything over 115mph puts you in the 99th percentile. The average driver clubhead speed for a Div. 1 NCAA golfer is about 114mph. This notion that lots of golfers can hit it 300+ and have 130 mph clubhead speeds is silly. Two people here claim they are in the top 1%ile in speed and distance. Ok, Even if so, your situations are the rare exception and I have seen nothing to believe that 99.5% of golfers can gain 10mph and 30 yards by fitness training. I'll chalk it up to accepting the claims of the two people here who say they have freakishly super athletic ability.

> > > > >

> > > > > There have been hundreds of threads with misinformed guys who try to use statistics and tour pros in distance arguments.

> > > > >

> > > > > The average “golfer” of 220 includes seniors who are decades from their prime and guys who are like Phillip Seymour Hoffman making it rain on the basketball court in Along Came Polly.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’ve been in lots of discussions about distance and working out and such. Early on I use to get defensive when guys say I’m a liar or I don’t how far I truly hit it. I participate in these to help guys out with experience and expertise. My video link to IG didn’t seem to work. My handle is @rc_nova

> > > >

> > > > The average driving distance for those with handicaps between 10-19 is 215 yards. The average distance for handicaps between 5-10 is 230.

> > > >

> > > > I won't challenge your actual driving distance, but I'm just saying that believing it is accepting that you are a top 1%ile golf athlete.

> > >

> > > How far I hit it and my percentile has absolutely nothing to do with the thread about strength gains correlating to distance. I posted to see how you were going to try and debunk that my strength training had nothing to do with how far I hit it now at 37 years vs when I was in my “prime”.

> > >

> > > I was a plus handicap golfer growing up, 165lbs, extremely efficient in my swing and being in the high upper 110’s. Strong for my size and very fit.

> > > Now 15 years later I’m 15mph faster and haven’t done any legitimate swing speed training apart from my gym workouts.

> > >

> >

> > All that speed must come from the new-fangled shaft technology from 2004 to 2019. Because it sure couldn't possibly be that you are stronger and more fit in every single way that involves hitting a stationary object with a club-like instrument...

>

> Do you think club and ball equipment technology hasn't changed in 15 years? Do you think that lighter shafts and aerodynamic clubheads and new materials and composites over 15 years have not affected speed and distance?

 

Well, my total static driver weight is 342g. So swinging a lighter shaft/club is ruled out. Maybe my larger 460g driver is much more aerodynamic and that is the reason I swing faster.

 

[Obee]

They have definitely changed. But we're talking about **clubhead speed increases** with @Rosco1216, not overall distance gains. Important distinction.

 

That said, equipment/ball changed nothing at all like it changed from 1980ish or so to 2000ish. That was (the most recent) quantum leap forward.

 

a 43.5 inch driver with a steel shaft versus a 44.75 - 45.25+ inch driver with a 50 - 70 gram shaft was the big game changer. Beyond that point, the rest is tinkering and adding bits and bobs here and there.

 

But if you think Rosco picked up that large a **clubhead speed increase** solely (or even overwhelmingly) via shaft technology ... I don't know what to tell you. The shafts of today have been optimized, for sure, but they are still ~60 - 70 grams and ~44.5 to 45.5 inches long for most players. They are optimized for precision, feel, and timing. You can't buy a driver-shaft combo that is going to give you 10(?)mph in clubhead speed, LICC, that's for sure.

 

What were your increases again, Rosco?

 

> @LICC said:

> > @Obee said:

> > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > @Krt22 said:

> > > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > @Rosco1216 said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @clevited said:

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > @kolomoia said:

> > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the best tracking information that we have, his distance numbers did not go up. Talk about second hand statements on clubhead speed all you want, his distance didn't materially change.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am going to see if I can better understand your position. Could you please answer these so I can better understand?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1) Do you believe that golf related fitness(of any kind) designed to add speed doesn't work?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2) Depending on your answer to 1, do you believe only that tour players can't gain speed from golf related fitness designed to add speed?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3) If yes to 2, can you elaborate why you believe that?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4) Have you yourself tried to add speed via some form of fitness measure?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5) Can you explain if you have an agenda here. Are you trying to downplay the impact of golf fitness as it relates to the club head speed and distance players can achieve today vs players of yesteryear?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I am trying to ferret out a reasonable discussion with you. In the other thread you were so all over the place with your point of view that I am giving you another chance to clarify it. Perhaps we have had a misunderstanding this whole time, perhaps not.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1- No, I do not believe that.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2- No. I believe that general strength training does not result in significant added distance for Tour pros.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- N/A

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4- I am a recreational golfer. I exercise and work out for general health. I also have very good distance for a recreational golfer and have added distance through improving my swing, not from strength training.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5- I have no agenda. Do you? Are you a trainer that focuses on golfers so you are adamant in pushing the view that strength training will increase distance so you can have more clients?

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I was precisely clear on the other thread. No one else had any issues understanding my arguments.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > > No I am not a personal trainer, I am a person that went on a solo endeavor that proved to me what can be done. I am just a amateur that wanted to see what he could do to increase distance. I changed my swing but stalled out speed increase wise. I have since become much stronger from the practice of that swing and have increase speed and distance even more and very significantly. So when you are so sure of yourself that it does nothing for tour players, but when I have demonstrated success with it and I have seen it work for many other people and significantly so, we are going to clash on this.

> > > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > > You have a sunk cost bias affecting your view. That's fine. I'm glad it worked for you. Hard to say how much fitness helped vs just practicing your swing more. You had mentioned on another thread that you gained 10 mph in clubhead speed. That doesn't come from fitness training. That can come from starting out as a beginner with bad technique and eventually developing a much better swing, with certain speed fitness training perhaps helping at the margin.

> > > > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > > > > LICC: I wish I could post in here what I wrote in the other thread about my experience and gains. Too lazy to re-write but I’d like to see what you say to try and debunk my experience.

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > > No way pal, you just learned to swing better/faster. Anyone can swing it 130 +if they practiced enough. No doubt in my mind.

> > > > > > > >

> > > > > > > > Again, you ( @Rosco1216 ) are claiming to have faster clubhead speed than most every Tour pro. It's amazing that we have so many freakishly rare athletes posting on this forum!

> > > > > > >

> > > > > > >

> > > > > >

> > > > > > The average driving distance for recreational golfers is about 220 yards with an average clubhead speed around 95. Anything over 115mph puts you in the 99th percentile. The average driver clubhead speed for a Div. 1 NCAA golfer is about 114mph. This notion that lots of golfers can hit it 300+ and have 130 mph clubhead speeds is silly. Two people here claim they are in the top 1%ile in speed and distance. Ok, Even if so, your situations are the rare exception and I have seen nothing to believe that 99.5% of golfers can gain 10mph and 30 yards by fitness training. I'll chalk it up to accepting the claims of the two people here who say they have freakishly super athletic ability.

> > > > >

> > > > > There have been hundreds of threads with misinformed guys who try to use statistics and tour pros in distance arguments.

> > > > >

> > > > > The average “golfer” of 220 includes seniors who are decades from their prime and guys who are like Phillip Seymour Hoffman making it rain on the basketball court in Along Came Polly.

> > > > >

> > > > > I’ve been in lots of discussions about distance and working out and such. Early on I use to get defensive when guys say I’m a liar or I don’t how far I truly hit it. I participate in these to help guys out with experience and expertise. My video link to IG didn’t seem to work. My handle is @rc_nova

> > > >

> > > > The average driving distance for those with handicaps between 10-19 is 215 yards. The average distance for handicaps between 5-10 is 230.

> > > >

> > > > I won't challenge your actual driving distance, but I'm just saying that believing it is accepting that you are a top 1%ile golf athlete.

> > >

> > > How far I hit it and my percentile has absolutely nothing to do with the thread about strength gains correlating to distance. I posted to see how you were going to try and debunk that my strength training had nothing to do with how far I hit it now at 37 years vs when I was in my “prime”.

> > >

> > > I was a plus handicap golfer growing up, 165lbs, extremely efficient in my swing and being in the high upper 110’s. Strong for my size and very fit.

> > > Now 15 years later I’m 15mph faster and haven’t done any legitimate swing speed training apart from my gym workouts.

> > >

> >

> > All that speed must come from the new-fangled shaft technology from 2004 to 2019. Because it sure couldn't possibly be that you are stronger and more fit in every single way that involves hitting a stationary object with a club-like instrument...

>

> Do you think club and ball equipment technology hasn't changed in 15 years? Do you think that lighter shafts and aerodynamic clubheads and new materials and composites over 15 years have not affected speed and distance?

 

 

[GoGoErky]

> @LICC said:

> > @GoGoErky said:

> > > @LICC said:

> > > > @kacer said:

> > > > How many golfers are there on the planet? And yes, if you are above 115 mph you are in the 99th percentile of speed. No one is disputing that. But the best golfers hit it the furthest. I'm a +3 handicap, play competitive golf, and have been around some of the best players in the world.

> > > >

> > > > The guys I regularly play with have above 110 club head speed. I realize that this is not the case for a lot of people. But I don't know many low handicaps that swing at 95 and play high level competitive golf.

> > > >

> > > > So to say that only 2 guys on this board are faster than the longest guys on the PGA TOUR is laughable. Just because you can't figure out how to gain speed doesn't mean that other people can't. And yes, golf is more than just about speed, but high level golf REQUIRES speed.

> > > >

> > > > Back to the original question, speed comes from the right swing technique. Copy what the best do to hit it far and you will hit it far. You need to work on sequencing, coordination, and technique. Look at guys who know how to teach speed. Guys like George Gankas, Lucas Wald, Josh Koch. They don't post on their instagram of their students doing regular strength work. They post swing changes, technique and sequencing changes. Muscle firing techniques, all to help coordination.

> > > >

> > > > Anyone can learn coordination. It may take some people longer than others, but I bet if you worked on your sequencing and coordination for a solid year, you would hit it significantly farther.

> > > >

> > > > If you worked on your strength alone for a solid year, you wouldn't gain near the speed as working on coordination.

> > > >

> > > > Yoga, stretching, flexibility, all of these things help coordination. It is not because your muscles are looser, its because you got better at moving your body.

> > > >

> > > > I could say that yoga can actually hurt your game because you become hyper flaccid. You need tension, and elasticity in your muscles in order to use them properly. Stringing them out isn't a good idea, which comes back to the basic ideas of speed increase. Which is moving better and increasing your coordination.

> > >

> > > The average distance of sub-5 handicap golfers is just over 250 yards.

> > >

> > > I'm not saying only 2 persons on this board are longer than the longest guys on the Tour. I'm saying the two people commenting here about their speed and distance are among the rare top 1% of golfers who have those speeds and distances, which are even beyond top 1% and are beyond most every Tour pro.

> > >

> > > I agree with everything else you said. Technique and coordination can drive distance gains. I'll further add that when it comes to distance gains on the Tour from 20+ years ago, IMO those gains are predominantly attributable to equipment technology.

> >

> > Stop using avg distance on tour when those stats have numerous variables from course conditions, club choice, and so on. No to mention that pros don’t swing 100% effort on every swing and play with about 85-90% of their power for the majority of the round.

> >

> >

>

> Sure, let's not use actual data when it contradicts your view.

 

It doesn’t contradict my view. The tour uses 2 holes for measuring distance and they tend be going in opposite directions uphill vs downhill or into the wind vs downwind. Again depending on the hole and layout pros may not even hit driver on the hole. Could be soft fairways after rain which impacts distance since they are measuring total and not carry. And as mentioned if they aren’t swinging 100% there’s no way to tell their true speed and distance. But you don’t want to accept these variables because it’s the only argument you have

[Krt22]

Gonna go ahead and bow out of this (and update my ignore list), there is zero point "debating" with someone who only believes their own made up "facts"

[LICC]

> @GoGoErky said:

> > @LICC said:

> > > @GoGoErky said:

> > > > @LICC said:

> > > > > @kacer said:

> > > > > How many golfers are there on the planet? And yes, if you are above 115 mph you are in the 99th percentile of speed. No one is disputing that. But the best golfers hit it the furthest. I'm a +3 handicap, play competitive golf, and have been around some of the best players in the world.

> > > > >

> > > > > The guys I regularly play with have above 110 club head speed. I realize that this is not the case for a lot of people. But I don't know many low handicaps that swing at 95 and play high level competitive golf.

> > > > >

> > > > > So to say that only 2 guys on this board are faster than the longest guys on the PGA TOUR is laughable. Just because you can't figure out how to gain speed doesn't mean that other people can't. And yes, golf is more than just about speed, but high level golf REQUIRES speed.

> > > > >

> > > > > Back to the original question, speed comes from the right swing technique. Copy what the best do to hit it far and you will hit it far. You need to work on sequencing, coordination, and technique. Look at guys who know how to teach speed. Guys like George Gankas, Lucas Wald, Josh Koch. They don't post on their instagram of their students doing regular strength work. They post swing changes, technique and sequencing changes. Muscle firing techniques, all to help coordination.

> > > > >

> > > > > Anyone can learn coordination. It may take some people longer than others, but I bet if you worked on your sequencing and coordination for a solid year, you would hit it significantly farther.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you worked on your strength alone for a solid year, you wouldn't gain near the speed as working on coordination.

> > > > >

> > > > > Yoga, stretching, flexibility, all of these things help coordination. It is not because your muscles are looser, its because you got better at moving your body.

> > > > >

> > > > > I could say that yoga can actually hurt your game because you become hyper flaccid. You need tension, and elasticity in your muscles in order to use them properly. Stringing them out isn't a good idea, which comes back to the basic ideas of speed increase. Which is moving better and increasing your coordination.

> > > >

> > > > The average distance of sub-5 handicap golfers is just over 250 yards.

> > > >

> > > > I'm not saying only 2 persons on this board are longer than the longest guys on the Tour. I'm saying the two people commenting here about their speed and distance are among the rare top 1% of golfers who have those speeds and distances, which are even beyond top 1% and are beyond most every Tour pro.

> > > >

> > > > I agree with everything else you said. Technique and coordination can drive distance gains. I'll further add that when it comes to distance gains on the Tour from 20+ years ago, IMO those gains are predominantly attributable to equipment technology.

> > >

> > > Stop using avg distance on tour when those stats have numerous variables from course conditions, club choice, and so on. No to mention that pros don’t swing 100% effort on every swing and play with about 85-90% of their power for the majority of the round.

> > >

> > >

> >

> > Sure, let's not use actual data when it contradicts your view.

>

> It doesn’t contradict my view. The tour uses 2 holes for measuring distance and they tend be going in opposite directions uphill vs downhill or into the wind vs downwind. Again depending on the hole and layout pros may not even hit driver on the hole. Could be soft fairways after rain which impacts distance since they are measuring total and not carry. And as mentioned if they aren’t swinging 100% there’s no way to tell their true speed and distance. But you don’t want to accept these variables because it’s the only argument you have

 

To be more specific on the methodology:

 

"Driving distance data are typically collected on two holes (“measured” drive holes), which are selected

taking into account three criteria:

1. The holes should be oriented in opposing directions (to minimise the impact of the wind on

the average distance).

2. The holes should preferably both be selected such that the landing area for the drives is flat.

Where this is not feasible, the holes would preferably have opposing topography to minimise

the effect of slopes on the average driving distance.

**3. The holes should be selected to maximise the potential that the golfers will choose to hit their

driver (ensuring that the data most closely reflects the distance hit by players using drivers).**

The PGA TOUR introduced the Shotlink system in 2003 which is used at most of its tournaments.

This system measures every shot during a tournament which means that, in addition to the traditional

“measured” driving distance on two holes, data are also available for all other par 4 and par 5 holes."

[Warrior42111]

I too am going to head out of the post.

 

For any new readers check out the basic physics breakdown I gave on pages 2 and 3. I will pat myself on the back and say that it shows the benefit of both technique and building muscle strategically.

[LICC]

> @Warrior42111 said:

> I too am going to head out of the post.

>

> For any new readers check out the basic physics breakdown I gave on pages 2 and 3. I will pat myself on the back and say that it shows the benefit of both technique and building muscle strategically.

 

This sentence in your comment: "Now if we were to increase strength of the core, wrist, hips, and forearms to the purpose of being able to have a faster hips and body accelerations one can indeed increase the velocity delta, increasing acceleration and therefore more distance, assuming perfect technique." - has gray area and subjectivity.

[Pepperturbo]

The question is about strength training... Yes, newfangled technology (my driver and ball) have given me the ability to keep hitting the ball a decent 250yd distance for a man almost 70 years old. But IMO technology alone is not the distance elixir. Jack Nicklaus argues it's the ball and it should be rolled back, yet he can't, as it is, physically hit the ball very far due to poor physical conditioning.

 

What's funny about this thread people use tour-level youthful golfers and their data to argue a point for or against strength training when the discussion should be based on whether it benefits Golfwrx amateur golfers. Tour pros have trainers, full-home gyms and professionally guided training regimes that are like their golf equipment, beyond what average Golfwrx Joe has in his bag, the garage or access to.

[HitEmTrue]

> @Warrior42111 said:

> It's all about efficiency, and muscle can help and even hurt it's all on how it is used. This is why IMO strength is an indirect correlation to distance.

>

> Let's get nerdy and assume a perfect environment (removing the coefficients of the grass, improper angles etc). The force use to hit the golf ball is F=ma. The mass of a golf ball is give or take 46g. Acceleration is the difference in velocities over the same time period. so a=(v2-v1)/(t2-t1). for impact we will have a time difference of 0.0005 seconds. and the velocity change is 50 m/s. now we have a=100000m/s^2. Going back to F=ma we now have F=0.046kg x 100000 m/s^2 giving us 4600N.

>

> The point of all this above is to show that it is not mass (constant in this case) but acceleration that generates distance. so how do we increase acceleration. First good technique is the biggest factor, without you are not consistently accelerating at max differential at the same time That's all good, but assuming perfect technique how can increase the velocity delta from the above equation. (Since we can't alter space time and edit the contact time of the club on ball).

>

> So once again making assumptions, if technique is perfect the only way to increase acceleration is a greater velocity delta. Now if we were to increase strength of the core, wrist, hips, and forearms to the purpose of being able to have a faster hips and body accelerations one can indeed increase the velocity delta, increasing acceleration and therefore more distance, assuming perfect technique.

>

> My conclusion is distance is far easier to gain with perfect technique, but can be aided by increased strength.

 

F=ma does not apply to the collision between a club head and the golf ball. During the impact interval, the club head slows down. If the club head is accelerating before impact, it makes little or no difference...velocity is what matters.

 

( perhaps you were saying that the club slows down at impact )

 

[LICC]

 

 

> @Rosco1216 said:

>

>

 

I’ll say that I’ve done these measurements at indoor simulators too and I find they don’t really translate to the course well. I’ve had numbers on the machine significantly farther than what I normally see on the course. My 1 or 2 best drives on the course will get to about what the machine reads on a regular basis. Maybe it’s the controlled environment or something else but I don’t take them as 100% accurate to real time play.

[Rosco1216]

> @LICC said:

>

>

> > @Rosco1216 said:

> >

> >

>

> I’ll say that I’ve done these measurements at indoor simulators too and I find they don’t really translate to the course well. I’ve had numbers on the machine significantly farther than what I normally see on the course. My 1 or 2 best drives on the course will get to about what the machine reads on a regular basis. Maybe it’s the controlled environment or something else but I don’t take them as 100% accurate to real time play.

 

?‍♂️

[clevited]

> @LICC said:

>

>

> > @Rosco1216 said:

> >

> >

>

> I’ll say that I’ve done these measurements at indoor simulators too and I find they don’t really translate to the course well. I’ve had numbers on the machine significantly farther than what I normally see on the course. My 1 or 2 best drives on the course will get to about what the machine reads on a regular basis. Maybe it’s the controlled environment or something else but I don’t take them as 100% accurate to real time play.

 

I swing even faster typically on the range or the golf course (proven by ball speed measurements and backcalculating carry on the golf course when conditions are flat, soft and calm). If you have never regularly experienced indoor simulator golf, it is not uncommon to swing slower indoors. It is a mental thing, the confinement messes with your head and you don't even realize it. This is from experience and from several dozen people I know in my simulator community. If you play enough though, you can eventually get over it and swing pretty much full speed indoors (though not everyone is able to achieve that, myself included).

 

Not all LMs or simulators are created equal either. Anything other than GC2-HMT (although this can be messed with to give false numbers through boost and ball speed manipulation from what I understand), GCQ, Trackman (outdoors), Flightscope (outdoors), Uneekor, GCHawk, I wouldn't trust much for ball speed, clubspeed, spin or anything just knowing how they work. Also, each LM has a different way of calculating distance given launch parameters, while others measure the whole flight but unless you tell it to, won't account for the wind that day.

 

Btw, all of that is based on first hand knowledge as I am a very technically oriented person and that is the kind of stuff I love to learn about and test.

[shoot4par]

> @dmecca2 said:

> > @"b.mattay" said:

> > I am really hoping it does. I'm hitting the gym hard this winter and hoping to gain 6-10 mph on my swing (get it into the 125-129 range). Definitely think it is doable, I am not in good shape right now.

>

> I dont think that extra 10mph will help you too much. The AVERAGE tour swing speed is around 113. the top guys on tour aka cam champ guys, are around 125-129 and they are the wildest hitters on tour. I would think the best spot to be is 115-120. You can find a good mix of staying accurate and hitting it long between those numbers.

>

> I would say if you average 115 and you want to hit it further, set your goal at gaining 2-3mph without trying to swing harder.

 

To be fair.... Straight at 250 is not straight at 300 or 350. In echoing what others have said, compound lifts and flexibility seem to be the best approach to developing more speed in golf. Core is also crucial.

[oikos1]

The word "significant" in the OP's title does leave much to interpretation. It's interesting that the most pronounced naysayer acknowledges that "technique and coordination can drive distance gains" yet doesn't think a focused fitness regimen would contribute to those components, creating a synergistic effect. It would be virtually impossible to quantify "gains as a result of a fitness regimen" as what golfer would ever give up multiple components only so one can be measured?

 

Strength and fitness training on it's own, probably not much in gains. Combined with a focused, holistic approach to ones own swing, whether pro or am, it seems self-evident there would be potential gains. How much depends on each individual.

 

Once again, a golf swing does not exist in a vacuum.

[airjammer]

yes, strength training can increase speed I don’t think anyone is going to argue against that. Less for people that are already fit and more for people who are less fit.

 

What LICC and I would say is that pro golfers are in the top 1% on the golf swing fitness level. They have swung a million? times in their life to get on the tour. Nobody on tour has shown the ability to gain significant speed 5+ mph without a swing change. There are million$ of reasons for someone to do so but it has not happened. They have the best trainers, swing coaches, dieticians, etc money can buy and nobody has done it with weight training alone..nobody. Anybody that has changed their swing and increased speed has suffered long term..Justin Rose might be a exception we will see. George Gankas has changed Lee’s and Kang’s swing dramatically but that was done by changing their positions and sequencing not by adding gym strength.

 

Now, can a newIsh dad clevited gain speed by swinging more..of course. I personally gain 3+ between April and May just by swinging more. We are more on the top 25% golf swing fitness level we might have put in 200000 swing in our life time. There is obviously room to grow on the muscle side and technique side of things.

 

Rosco started a thread a ways back focused on his technique so obviously his swing has gotten better as well

as his fitness. He cannot pinpoint exactly how much his strength gains contributed to his speed gains.

 

Rangergoalie and his students are the same. He was injured so obviously he was on the lower spectrum as far as physical fitness at least on the one body part. His students weren’t coming to him to keep their swing the same so who can say how much fitness contributed to their swing either.

 

This topic is a difficult one because you cannot change your swing or gain size or strength without changing the other. It’s absolutely not possible to do so as they are intertwined.

 

 

As I posted in the distance thread. Phil has changed his swing and increased his fitness level well. If Phil just started lifting and grew his calves but didn’t change his swing to utilize them more..more than likely he would have saw very little in speed gains. It’s kinda like me doing pull ups. Can’t remember the last time I needed to do a pull in real practical life but I practice this and train these muscles in the gym. I will get very little from this exercise until I actually need to pull myself up in real life.

[Rosco1216]

I posted a thread a little over a year ago about technique to get in a little more consistent positions. That has nothing to do with this or my current speed as I have been at my current speed eek before that.

[Trav1989]

Yes strength will play a big part of how far one can hit a ball with all other things being equal.

[Trav1989]

Your mind plays a big part of it only allowing you to swing as fast as your body can withstand

[clevited]

> @airjammer said:

> yes, strength training can increase speed I don’t think anyone is going to argue against that. Less for people that are already fit and more for people who are less fit.

>

> What LICC and I would say is that pro golfers are in the top 1% on the golf swing fitness level. They have swung a million? times in their life to get on the tour. Nobody on tour has shown the ability to gain significant speed 5+ mph without a swing change. There are million$ of reasons for someone to do so but it has not happened. They have the best trainers, swing coaches, dieticians, etc money can buy and nobody has done it with weight training alone..nobody. Anybody that has changed their swing and increased speed has suffered long term..Justin Rose might be a exception we will see. George Gankas has changed Lee’s and Kang’s swing dramatically but that was done by changing their positions and sequencing not by adding gym strength.

>

> Now, can a newIsh dad clevited gain speed by swinging more..of course. I personally gain 3+ between April and May just by swinging more. We are more on the top 25% golf swing fitness level we might have put in 200000 swing in our life time. There is obviously room to grow on the muscle side and technique side of things.

>

> Rosco started a thread a ways back focused on his technique so obviously his swing has gotten better as well

> as his fitness. He cannot pinpoint exactly how much his strength gains contributed to his speed gains.

>

> Rangergoalie and his students are the same. He was injured so obviously he was on the lower spectrum as far as physical fitness at least on the one body part. His students weren’t coming to him to keep their swing the same so who can say how much fitness contributed to their swing either.

>

> This topic is a difficult one because you cannot change your swing or gain size or strength without changing the other. It’s absolutely not possible to do so as they are intertwined.

>

>

>

> As I posted in the distance thread. Phil has changed his swing and increased his fitness level well. If Phil just started lifting and grew his calves but didn’t change his swing to utilize them more..more than likely he would have saw very little in speed gains. It’s kinda like me doing pull ups. Can’t remember the last time I needed to do a pull in real practical life but I practice this and train these muscles in the gym. I will get very little from this exercise until I actually need to pull myself up in real life.

 

This was a much more eloquent and respectful way of describing your stance, and LICCs stance if it is indeed this, but I would still pretty much guarantee you that you downplay what fitness can do for you even for the average tour player.

 

Sure, more and more if not most all tour players keep a certain level of fitness going to help their game, problem is, you don't know what kind of fitness level each player is at nor do you know what form of fitness they pursue and why.

 

-It could be they run and stretch and stuff every day to keep their endurance up for 72 holes.

-It could be to primarily prevent injury.

-It could be all vanity.

-It could be to gain speed.

 

I have swung the golf club probably more than any typical person other than a tour player. I am as golf strong as I can get from just swinging the club. I also swing it as hard as I absolutely can and operate at my limit as often as I can to maintain and improve it. Not all tour pro's were shown or taught to do that. You might say they have more in the tank and don't know it. So for instance, lets pretend Jordan Speith is this way. Perhaps he was taught, or decided to never swing too hard and always be in control at the range or what have you. Many teachers do still teach this even at a young age. The old swing nice and easy advice. You don't learn to swing fast or build the strength needed to do so by swinging nice and easy. You have to practice it, you have to work on it. One way is by overspeed training which is a heck of a workout and basically what I have done.

 

I would say that more and more tour players are growing up learning to reach their speed limit and then learning to control it than ever before. They might do that via how I did and that is pretty much it, or they might have also added strength training in other forms to up their limit and or make their current limit more usable. They may or may not have done all that before they hit the tour.

 

You are absolutely correct that swing changes can add speed. Sequencing can add speed. I could sort of make the same argument you are though regarding that. Wouldn't you think all of these pro's already have super efficient and as fast as they can (with control) swings already? Just guessing on this, but I think most of them do. It is dangerous to change a swing too much but you could say getting a little stronger in the gym so you can turn up the juice and remain in control is less dangerous.

 

Absolutely nobody can say that golf specific fitness cannot add speed and therefore distance to any individual even a tour player. You don't know their physical condition, you don't know where they could use improvement, you don't know any of that. You can however with certainty because it has worked for many, that golf specific fitness can (because it has a for a huge number of people), help increase a person's swing speed and therefore distance they can hit the ball.

 

Before LICC comes in here and gets all hostile and says THAT'S BASELESS or his other usual crap, that is obviously all opinion sprinkled with my own personal experience and observations. It was done to try and convey a point and why possibly the people in this thread are against his and your thinking.

 

Unless you undertake some of these trainings, exercises etc and see for yourself if they work or not, you cannot possibly understand, especially if you are not willing to accept the experiences of others as proof.

[Rosco1216]

I’ll do my best to address some specific points that have been brought up.

 

1:Can strength training increase distance? Absolutely. Significantly? That depends on what you view as significant. I can use myself as that example. I’m approximately 12% faster than I was in my “prime” and roughly 7-8% faster in the last 4-5 years since I really started focusing on the powerlifting side. I’m 37 now and theoretically should be slowing down by now.

 

2: “I haven’t seen any tour pros gain significant yardage through training”. This is one that is difficult for some to understand. They see Scott Stalling as the current “poster boy” and see him not being longer off the tee so they think weightlifting doesn’t increase distance. Scott, as with the vast majority of tour pros, are about as efficient from a swing perspective as it gets. He trained for FITNESS and significantly increased his fitness/cardiovascular/health levels but did not train purely to gain absolute strength and power increases. Tour pros do not have a significant off season and they practice and play and walk miles daily year round. Training at the intensity and consistency required would disrupt how they make their living on a weekly basis. They can’t get intense powerlifting sessions in multiple times a week and still be able practice and play at their top level.

 

 

[Krt22]

> @LICC said:

>

>

> > @Rosco1216 said:

> >

> >

>

> I’ll say that I’ve done these measurements at indoor simulators too and I find they don’t really translate to the course well. I’ve had numbers on the machine significantly farther than what I normally see on the course. My 1 or 2 best drives on the course will get to about what the machine reads on a regular basis. Maybe it’s the controlled environment or something else but I don’t take them as 100% accurate to real time play.

 

Lol. I know I was supposed to bow out, but this is just too dang much. Not only do you make up your own facts, but you disbelieve legitimate facts/data when presented with them. 194mph ball speed is moving!

[LICC]

> @clevited said:

> > @airjammer said:

> > yes, strength training can increase speed I don’t think anyone is going to argue against that. Less for people that are already fit and more for people who are less fit.

> >

> > What LICC and I would say is that pro golfers are in the top 1% on the golf swing fitness level. They have swung a million? times in their life to get on the tour. Nobody on tour has shown the ability to gain significant speed 5+ mph without a swing change. There are million$ of reasons for someone to do so but it has not happened. They have the best trainers, swing coaches, dieticians, etc money can buy and nobody has done it with weight training alone..nobody. Anybody that has changed their swing and increased speed has suffered long term..Justin Rose might be a exception we will see. George Gankas has changed Lee’s and Kang’s swing dramatically but that was done by changing their positions and sequencing not by adding gym strength.

> >

> > Now, can a newIsh dad clevited gain speed by swinging more..of course. I personally gain 3+ between April and May just by swinging more. We are more on the top 25% golf swing fitness level we might have put in 200000 swing in our life time. There is obviously room to grow on the muscle side and technique side of things.

> >

> > Rosco started a thread a ways back focused on his technique so obviously his swing has gotten better as well

> > as his fitness. He cannot pinpoint exactly how much his strength gains contributed to his speed gains.

> >

> > Rangergoalie and his students are the same. He was injured so obviously he was on the lower spectrum as far as physical fitness at least on the one body part. His students weren’t coming to him to keep their swing the same so who can say how much fitness contributed to their swing either.

> >

> > This topic is a difficult one because you cannot change your swing or gain size or strength without changing the other. It’s absolutely not possible to do so as they are intertwined.

> >

> >

> >

> > As I posted in the distance thread. Phil has changed his swing and increased his fitness level well. If Phil just started lifting and grew his calves but didn’t change his swing to utilize them more..more than likely he would have saw very little in speed gains. It’s kinda like me doing pull ups. Can’t remember the last time I needed to do a pull in real practical life but I practice this and train these muscles in the gym. I will get very little from this exercise until I actually need to pull myself up in real life.

>

> This was a much more eloquent and respectful way of describing your stance, and LICCs stance if it is indeed this, but I would still pretty much guarantee you that you downplay what fitness can do for you even for the average tour player.

>

> Sure, more and more if not most all tour players keep a certain level of fitness going to help their game, problem is, you don't know what kind of fitness level each player is at nor do you know what form of fitness they pursue and why.

>

> -It could be they run and stretch and stuff every day to keep their endurance up for 72 holes.

> -It could be to primarily prevent injury.

> -It could be all vanity.

> -It could be to gain speed.

>

> I have swung the golf club probably more than any typical person other than a tour player. I am as golf strong as I can get from just swinging the club. I also swing it as hard as I absolutely can and operate at my limit as often as I can to maintain and improve it. Not all tour pro's were shown or taught to do that. You might say they have more in the tank and don't know it. So for instance, lets pretend Jordan Speith is this way. Perhaps he was taught, or decided to never swing too hard and always be in control at the range or what have you. Many teachers do still teach this even at a young age. The old swing nice and easy advice. You don't learn to swing fast or build the strength needed to do so by swinging nice and easy. You have to practice it, you have to work on it. One way is by overspeed training which is a heck of a workout and basically what I have done.

>

> I would say that more and more tour players are growing up learning to reach their speed limit and then learning to control it than ever before. They might do that via how I did and that is pretty much it, or they might have also added strength training in other forms to up their limit and or make their current limit more usable. They may or may not have done all that before they hit the tour.

>

> You are absolutely correct that swing changes can add speed. Sequencing can add speed. I could sort of make the same argument you are though regarding that. Wouldn't you think all of these pro's already have super efficient and as fast as they can (with control) swings already? Just guessing on this, but I think most of them do. It is dangerous to change a swing too much but you could say getting a little stronger in the gym so you can turn up the juice and remain in control is less dangerous.

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> Absolutely nobody can say that golf specific fitness cannot add speed and therefore distance to any individual even a tour player. You don't know their physical condition, you don't know where they could use improvement, you don't know any of that. You can however with certainty because it has worked for many, that golf specific fitness can (because it has a for a huge number of people), help increase a person's swing speed and therefore distance they can hit the ball.

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> Before LICC comes in here and gets all hostile and says THAT'S BASELESS or his other usual crap, that is obviously all opinion sprinkled with my own personal experience and observations. It was done to try and convey a point and why possibly the people in this thread are against his and your thinking.

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> Unless you undertake some of these trainings, exercises etc and see for yourself if they work or not, you cannot possibly understand, especially if you are not willing to accept the experiences of others as proof.

 

You cannot show any Tour player that increased distanced solely from fitness training. For all your theorizing and pondering, you don't have results to verify your speculation. I can point to a Tour player who went from unfit and overweight to very fit and strong from his training, who did not gain distance from all of that fitness work. Results talk, baseless speculation walks ...